how to jigdo download a fedora 8 re-spin in one easy step?

[Robert P. J. Day]

  for the first time, i'd like to download the fedora 8 x86_64 re-spin
and, to be frank, there's not a single web page i've found that tells
me how to use jigdo to do it.

  i've perused the tutorials and HOWTOs at fedoraunity.org and
followed links, and i'm now fairly conversant on the rationale behind
re-spins and why jigdo was developed and a whole lot of other stuff
but i've yet to find a single page that says, "oh, you want a re-spin?
follow these steps."

  seriously, this is what i think has been a fundamental failing of a
lot of online fedora documentation -- the notion of a simple "recipe":
do these things, and you will get what you want.  instead, there's
typically a great deal of philosophical substantiation, while the poor
reader is just sitting there, thinking, "well, yeah, but i just want
to *do* something, so how do i *do* it?"  (it's sort of like, when i
ask someone for the time, i want them to tell me the time, i don't
need to be told how to build a watch.)

  so, really, when i decided to grab a re-spin, i figured to invest a
minute or two googling, find the command, and run it.  i'm still
looking.  why is it typically this time-consuming?

rday


========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 December 2007, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > >   by the way, the above is still not annoyance-free:
> >
> > OK....
> >
> > So, I gather from all of this that the existing documentation,
> > links, and whatever doesn't measure up to what you need or expect.
> > Would that be a fair summary?
> >
> > Is the question then, how can documentation be improved for the
> > average user?
>
> all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time to figure
> out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm guessing that,
> in most cases, readers aren't interested in a long-winded overview of
> things -- they just want to know what commands to run to get
> something done, which is all i wanted in the first place.
>
> in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook" with tight,
> concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if they choose
> to read up later on the underlying operations, then that's their
> choice.
>  
+++++++++50 what he said.

This is my main bitch too.  Particularly with jigdo, the manpages suck, and 
you all think its a big secret as to how to make it work.  Frankly I have 
doubts there are 20 people on the planet who actually know how to make it 
work the first time.

Given that we have made a directory for jigdo-lite to work in, and what we 
want to pull, you make getting the correct starter file's url for a given 
download to be an unfathomable mystery accessible only to the annointed, as 
its not usually visible (hey fedora, are you listening) as a pullable file on 
the web page advertising the jigdo availability, and the correct way to spec 
the target path on your hardware to this starter file is always 
spoken/written about in an extremely obtuse way.  We speak english here as a 
matter of having a common language, and its my native tongue, but the answers 
I have elicited to date may as well be written in swahili.

I see 2 choices for jigdo.

1) remove it from distribution (but it promises to be a usefull tool if its 
ever completed, but its the Duke Nukem Forever story all over again, for 
what, 3 years now?)

2) support it properly, with decent docs that make sense to a reader of 
english.  One annotated sample command line is worth 2000 words of obtuse 
prose.

This reminds me several years ago, of a piece of a C compiler for a 'legacy' 
machine that needed lots of TLC.  A CS student undertook to fix it via a 
total rewrite.  But his prof made a huge mistake and gave him an A before it 
was quite ready so he went on to other things, and I had to do 3 more 
releases before it was actually usable for the biggest project I had to throw 
at it.  That seems to be the jigdo situation.  So either finish it, or put it 
and us trying to make it work out of our misery.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
I'm wet!  I'm wild!

[Ed Greshko]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  
> > Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >
> >>   by the way, the above is still not annoyance-free:
> > OK....
> >
> > So, I gather from all of this that the existing documentation,
> > links, and whatever doesn't measure up to what you need or expect.
> > Would that be a fair summary?
> >
> > Is the question then, how can documentation be improved for the
> > average user?
>  
>  all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time to figure
>  out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm guessing that,
>  in most cases, readers aren't interested in a long-winded overview of
>  things -- they just want to know what commands to run to get
>  something done, which is all i wanted in the first place.
>  
>  in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook" with tight,
>  concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if they choose
>  to read up later on the underlying operations, then that's their
>  choice. 
Right....  Not a bad idea.

All we need now is someone to author the cookbook and someone to contribute
the first recipe.

Karl?

[Beartooth Sciurivore]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:52:08 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:

>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  
> > OK....
> >
> > So, I gather from all of this that the existing documentation, links,
> > and whatever doesn't measure up to what you need or expect. Would that
> > be a fair summary?
> >
> > Is the question then, how can documentation be improved for the average
> > user?
>  
>  all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time to figure
>  out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm guessing that, in
>  most cases, readers aren't interested in a long-winded overview of
>  things -- they just want to know what commands to run to get something
>  done, which is all i wanted in the first place. 
	I'll second that, with a small emendation : sooner or later, I 
*will* want to know all the stuff on those sites, and more. Probably 
later, or much later. At first, I just want the result; if/when I get 
used to success, *then* I want to understand.

>  in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook"
> with tight,
>  concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if they choose to
>  read up later on the underlying operations, then that's their choice. 
	Agreed again. And there isn't one, or it's well hidden.

	For the last two or three days, I've done little else but try to 
get the re-spin of F8. Twice, now, I've gotten two downloads going in 
parallel (on one instance of jigdo -- using the GUI interface that "yum 
install jigdo" gave me.

	Both times, I've let them run fourteen hours or more, and found 
them next day still using 40% CPU *each* for a total of 80% -- and with 
no hint of approaching success.

	I finally gave up, despite all those web sites *and* some 
suggestions here. I did a clean install with my old original DVD; ran yum 
update; I'm running pirut now, which will probably take me at least a 
whole day just to get the machine customized much as it was before.

	And then I'll still have to copy all my user's files and tweaks 
-- or as many of them as I know about -- back from another machine. And 
try to finish before she comes back and needs to resume her own work on 
her machine.

	And it will still be less trouble than I've already wasted trying 
to get a DVD that would do an upgrade. In fact, it looks like I'll have 
to go back to buying pre-burnt media for F9 and F10 ...

-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck Linux Convert
Fedora 8; Alpine 0.99999, Pan 0.132; Privoxy 3.0.6;
Dillo 0.8.6, Galeon 2.0.3, Epiphany 2.20, Opera 9.24, Firefox 2.0
Remember I know precious little of what I am talking about.

[David]

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Gene Heskett wrote:
>  On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
>  
>  Maybe so, but you have obviously done this several times previously, David.  
>  As far as the gui is concerned, no it is not needed, but the majority of us 
>  would like to have one with 2 or three file requesters to use, one for 
>  getting the src listing from the url, one for finding that src list on your 
>  machine once its been downloaded, and one to tell it where to put the 
>  results.  With such a working gui that launched the jigdo-lite as a 
>  background process giving it the correct syntax and data as derived from the 
>  file requesters, I'd bet that jigdo usage would multiply by 10 in a week. 

I don't recall if I pointed you at this site page before or not. I have
others. But it just about does not get more clear than this. Done by
Fedora people, for Fedora people, to download Fedora isos.


Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/


This site gives very good, clear instructions. They were for me. And, as
an experiment, I just did this again while running Windows XP Pro. That
was interesting because there are next to no instructions for that way.
And none of the Linux instructions 'work' in the Windows jigdo. They are
all actually writen for Debian isos and had to be edited.

And yes I have done this before now. Several times. Just for giggles and
grins. I have also, somewhere, the necessary rsync CLI that will let you
 'change' a rc1 beta to a rc2 beta iso by just 'diffing' the changed
parts of the contents between the two.
- --


  David
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CVS is dead

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Martin Marques wrote:

>  Robert P. J. Day escribió:
>  >
>  > and if one were to start a new project that didn't have to be strictly
>  > backward compatible with anything, and one already had a decent
>  > grounding in CVS, subversion would also be a reasonable choice.
>
>  Why? 
because subversion corrects a number of CVS "issues", and the command
structure is very similar to that of CVS, so all that CVS knowledge
can be transferred over fairly quickly.

i didn't say that subversion was the best version control system of
all the possible choices -- only that, if one was already fairly
conversant with CVS, it would be a "reasonable" choice for a new
project.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Karl Larsen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>    
> > David Boles wrote:
> > Karl Larsen wrote:
> >  
> >     
> >>>> David Boles wrote:
> >>>> Karl Larsen wrote:
> >>>>  
> >>>>    
> >>>>           
> >>>>>>>    I and rday are going to write a help file using this
> jigdo
> >>>>>>> method to
> >>>>>>> make your own respin of any Fedora version. But I have
> problems.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>    Rday says you need to mount the F8 DVD on /mnt/. On my
> computer it
> >>>>>>> automatically mounts on /media/. I fix that in a root
> terminal by
> >>>>>>> #umount name-of-DVD and it works fine.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>    My problem is I can't find the proper things to mount
> the DVD to
> >>>>>>> /mnt/. I thought I could find the right things in /etc/fstab
> but they
> >>>>>>> are not listed there any more :-)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>    Does anyone know how to do the mount function on a DVD?
> >>>>>>>               
> >>>>>>>                 
> >>>> Karl,
> >>>>
> >>>> this should help you with your project.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
> >>>> http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
> >>>>
> >>>>     
> >>>>           
> >  
> >     
> >>>>    Sorry it does not help. Jigsaw seems to want a url and when I give it
> >>>> a /media/name/packages/ it says Not a proper URL. Perhaps I need to add
> >>>> some "" but really I need a way to mount the DVD.
> >>>>     
> >>>>           
> >  
> >     
> >>>> Karl
> >>>>     
> >>>>           
> > If you are looking at what I *think* that you are looking at here the
> > URL is:
> >
> > http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/20071218/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8.j...
> >
> >
> > As for the dvd - does it not mount when you put it in the drive? If not
> > mount it yourself. The answer to one of the other questions asked is the
> > path to the dvd.
> >   
> >     
> >>    The DVD is mounted to /media/ automatic upon putting the DVD in the
> >> reader.
> >>       
> >> Now the http you show is a real hodge-podge of stuff and I have no idea
> >> how that will help me. But I will try it.
> >>       
> >> As for writing instructions for this task, I first must be able to DO it
> >> :-)
> >>       
>
>
>  The URL is the link to the jigdo file download templates. The script
>  that runs needs those files because they contain the iso template, the
>  paths data for the new files, and the 'selection' that lets you tell the
>  script what you want to download and create.
>
>  Good luck.  ;-)
>
>  - --
>
>
>    David
>
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> >  =uvUf
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>     
    That is well and good. That web page full of images is interesting. 
How do I write a help section on choosing what to extract from that page?

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[David]

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Hash: SHA1

Karl Larsen wrote:
>  David Boles wrote:
>  Gene Heskett wrote:
>   
>  
>  
>  I don't recall if I pointed you at this site page before or not. I have
>  others. But it just about does not get more clear than this. Done by
>  Fedora people, for Fedora people, to download Fedora isos.
>  
>  
>  Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
>  http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
>  
>  
>  This site gives very good, clear instructions. They were for me. And, as
>  an experiment, I just did this again while running Windows XP Pro. That
>  was interesting because there are next to no instructions for that way.
>  And none of the Linux instructions 'work' in the Windows jigdo. They are
>  all actually writen for Debian isos and had to be edited.
>  
>  And yes I have done this before now. Several times. Just for giggles and
>  grins. I have also, somewhere, the necessary rsync CLI that will let you
>   'change' a rc1 beta to a rc2 beta iso by just 'diffing' the changed
>  parts of the contents between the two. 
>     Well I agree that that web page is pretty good, but it is very
> spotty
>  data. It does not say "use the jigdo software in a command-line way" but
>  you do. And it says if you wait and all is well it will ask for the
>  location of your DVD data. 
>     I did learn you need to put the right stuff in /.jigdo but not
> really
>  how to put it there. It is left as something to experiment with. 
>     From a writer's point of view the web page might be the best,
> but the
>  best is very VERY poor. 

You think so? Then you should email the page's author with your concerns
and suggestions. His email address link is at the very top left of the page.

- --


  David
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[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Karl Larsen wrote:
>  David Boles wrote:
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>   
>  
>  
>  The URL is the link to the jigdo file download templates. The script
>  that runs needs those files because they contain the iso template, the
>  paths data for the new files, and the 'selection' that lets you tell the
>  script what you want to download and create.
>  
>  Good luck.  ;-)
>   
>     That is well and good. That web page full of images is
> interesting.
>  How do I write a help section on choosing what to extract from that page? 

If you are *looking* at this page in a browser that is *not* what you
are supposed to be doing.

http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/20071218/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8.j...

This is the URL that the jigdo program asks for in the startup. The
second question is which (pick a number) iso do you want to update. The
third question is where is your existing source (if you have one). If
you don't it will build your new iso all from downloads.

- --


  David
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[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Karl Larsen wrote:

>  Robert P. J. Day wrote: 
>  > p.s.  it's still not clear if jigdo-lite is capable of using
> the
>  > mount point that is automatically created by inserting the
>  > original DVD, given that the mount point name has embedded spaces,
>  > which is why i suggest that you need to unmount the DVD, then
>  > manually mount it back under something like /mnt.
>  >
>  > has anyone got this to work using the original mount point, which
>  > is something like "/media/Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD"?  that would
>  > simplify things.
>  >
>     Hi Rday, it looks to me like /media/"Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD" should work. It
>  is what you do when using basic tools.
>
>  Karl 
i tried that and other quoted variations, and none of them worked for
me.  are you saying it worked for you?  how odd.

rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Karl Larsen]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
>    
> > On Wednesday 26 December 2007, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:
> >     
>
>    
> >> 	For the last two or three days, I've done little else but try
> >> to get the re-spin of F8. Twice, now, I've gotten two downloads
> >> going in parallel (on one instance of jigdo -- using the GUI
> >> interface that "yum install jigdo" gave me.
> >>       
> > Beartooth: The gui is broken, as the docs we *do* have clearly say.
> > Use the cli, jigdo-lite version.  Its been broken since it release
> > in 2004 or 2005, and no one to my knowledge has touched it with an
> > eye toward fixing it.
> >     
>
>  exactly.  i'll fix my wiki page to emphasize that, while you need to
>  install the jigdo *package*, the command you run is "jigdo-lite".  i
>  didn't bother with the GUI front-end.
>
>  rday
>
>  p.s.  it's still not clear if jigdo-lite is capable of using the mount
>  point that is automatically created by inserting the original DVD,
>  given that the mount point name has embedded spaces, which is why i
>  suggest that you need to unmount the DVD, then manually mount it back
>  under something like /mnt.
>
>  has anyone got this to work using the original mount point, which is
>  something like "/media/Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD"?  that would simplify
>  things.
>     
    Hi Rday, it looks to me like /media/"Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD" should 
work. It is what you do when using basic tools.

Karl


> ========================================================================
>  Robert P. J. Day
>  Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
>  Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
>  http://crashcourse.ca
>  ========================================================================
>
>     

-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 02:51:06 -0500,
  "Robert P. J. Day" <rpjday(a)crashcourse.ca&gt; wrote:
>  On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Gene Heskett wrote:
>  
>  > On Wednesday 26 December 2007, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:
>  
>  > >	For the last two or three days, I've done little else but try
>  > >to get the re-spin of F8. Twice, now, I've gotten two downloads
>  > >going in parallel (on one instance of jigdo -- using the GUI
>  > >interface that "yum install jigdo" gave me. 
I was able to build a respin DVD using jigdo-file, a downloaded template
file and mirrors of repos that I had locally (which would be similar to having
the repos on media).

CVS is dead

[Timothy Selivanow]

On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 17:19 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
>  Martin Marques wrote:
>  
>  >> CVS has problems caused by all of the history being kept in a single 
>  >> file (it doesn't understand directory operations like renames), but the 
>  > 
>  > Oh, and the fact that commits are not atomic so that if two chagesets 
>  > collide (well, CVS doesn't have notion of changeset, only of single file 
>  > changes) very bad things can happen (one changeset locks a file that the 
>  > other changeset has to update) and you get a corrupt copy that has to be 
>  > fixed.
>  > 
>  > Subversion, git and Mercurial (and others) addressed this issue adding 
>  > atomicity to the chagesets (see that with these VCS files don't have 
>  > version there are changeset versions).
>  > 
>  >> up side is that you can track development 'forwards' from any point. 
>  > 
>  > Uhh???
>  > 
>  > $ hg up -r SOME_OLD_REV
>  
>  Start from a tagged point in development. Branch several times for 
>  different changes. Can you find all subsequent work? 
This doesn't make sense from a SVN paradigm, and I'm pretty sure it's
just a difference of semantics.  You _can_ d/l the entire repo, or if
you want to, follow revision numbers and see what was done.  SVN keeps
trunk, tags, and branches isolated; if you follow the revisions of just
trunk, you only see the revisions of trunk.

>  > (same with svn or git-update).
>  > 
>  >> With svn, there's no way to start from an earlier tag and follow 
>  >> future tags/branches of that same file.  
>  > 
>  > What? Les do you really know what you're talking about?
>  
>  I'd like to hear that I don't.  With CVS, if you have any of the 
>  development you have all of it.  With svn, tags are (by convention) dead 
>  end snapshots and there is no way to track forward development.  Assume 
>  you worked on something some time ago, ending by creating a certain tag. 
>    Now several other people create branches for additional work.  How can 
>  you tell that, starting from the tag you last knew about?  You could 
>  start from any of the branches and work backwards but you can't see what 
>  branches were created or when going forwards. 
Yes, tags are by convention a dead-end.  The concept of a "tag" is also
at the root of the concept of a "tagged release".  I would say that by
convention, a release won't have anymore development done on it.

Branches are for the ability of making (possibly radical) changes
without disrupting the main trunk.  Some branches merge back into trunk,
some don't.

>  >> This must be even worse in distributed VC's where the
> changes might 
>  >> not even exist in your copy of the repository.  Doesn't it bother you 
>  >> to know you might be repeating someone else's mistakes because you 
>  >> can't track all the other changes from a given point?
>  > 
>  > What mistake if it's not in the repository?
>  
>  That's the point - you won't know. 
A SCM is not a replacement for communication and normal team dynamics.
It is a tool to /help/ with managing and tracking changes to source
code.

>  > The same thing would happen with CVS if you were coding without
>
>  > commiting to the main server. Nobody will be able to know what you are 
>  > doing. Same if your coworkers don't update regularly. How can they know 
>  > what you fixed?
>  
>  If you aren't committing to the central repository, you aren't using CVS.
>  
>  > In distributed VCS you use pull and push for this.
>  
>  How can you tell whether that was always done or not?
>  
>  -- 
>     Les Mikesell
>      lesmikesell(a)gmail.com 
That all said, if you like CVS, you like CVS.  If an organization (i.e.
Fedora) wants to use a specific SCM, I'm sure there are reasons for it.
I would hope that in deciding what tool to use, one would weight all the
features and match them with your work habits/procedures/policies.

There's more than one way to skin a cat for a reason.


--Tim
 _________________________________________________________________________ 
/ In Africa some of the native tribes have a custom of beating the ground \
| with clubs and uttering spine chilling cries.  Anthropologists call     |
\ this a form of primitive self-expression.  In America we call it golf.  /
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
  \
   \   \
        \ /\
        ( )
      .( o ).

[Ric Moore]

On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 19:28 +0000, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:

>  	And it will still be less trouble than I've already wasted
> trying 
>  to get a DVD that would do an upgrade. In fact, it looks like I'll have 
>  to go back to buying pre-burnt media for F9 and F10 ... 
+1 Ya know, it's WORTH a coupla bucks just to not torture myself and buy
the DVD. One stinkin' bleep or bloop in the process and the DVD is an
expensive coaster. Plus, my overall mental health takes a serious
double-gainer-back-flip into a bout of depression and carpet chewing.

What I truly miss from the OLD DAYS was when package manager just asked
that I insert the CD and it would install packages, long after the
install took place. The option was to use ftp to grab anything else
needed and everyone worked as smooth as a monkey's butt. Heck, I'd
subscribe to update DVD's, if the service wasn't too pricey. 

Then I could go back to using the internet as a place to get information
from. Sure, get security alerts off the net quickly, but all those
megabytes of updates tying up bandwidth, for a lot of us on modems and
creeping DSL is a pure headache.  

>  -- 
>  Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck Linux Convert
>  Fedora 8; Alpine 0.99999, Pan 0.132; Privoxy 3.0.6;
>  Dillo 0.8.6, Galeon 2.0.3, Epiphany 2.20, Opera 9.24, Firefox 2.0
>  Remember I know precious little of what I am talking about. 
Me neither, Panky. :) Ric

-- 
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net  <---down4now too
================================================

[Karl Larsen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>    
> >> David Boles wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> It's all part of the dumbing down that Linux is going through.
> >>
> >> The Infinite monkey theorem.  ;-)
> >>       
>
>    
> >    I disagree. If you drive the documentation train Fedora will go down
> > in flames. What you use as an example of poor instruction is the best I
> > have seen in a long time. He tells you what it is. He tells you how to
> > get it. He tells you where it is on your computer. Then he goes to the
> > next subject on the same page which is Java.
> >     
>
>    
> >    You power users are a small group. You just want the basics man!
> > There are a lot more people who are new users who will like the way
> > Finley did it. He went to Umbuto because you guys drove him there. But
> > if you have your way there will be no more new users.
> >     
>
>
>  I would not consider myself to be a power user but thanks for the
>  completment. I learned Linux the hard way. Myself with no schooling. I
>  bought and read books about it *before* i ever installed it the first
>  time. In other words? I knew a little about it before I started.
>
>  And yes the Docs can be a little sparse but it is assumed that you
>  already know something about what you are doing. Or you *should* know
>  something.
>
>  Would you prefer instructions like this?
>
>  How to fuel your car.
>
>  1) Drive to the fueling station
>  2) Pull up to the fuel pump.
>  3) Place the transmission in Park
>  4) Turn off the engine.
>  5) Remove the key
>  6) Unbuckle your seatbelt
>  7) ...
>
>  Shall I go on? Or.
>
>  1) Drive to the fueling station
>  2) Fuel your car
>  3) Pay for the fuel
>  4) Leave
>
>  You already know the other parts.  ;-)
>
>  It, Linux, is not always easy. But I think that sometimes users actually
>  make it harder for themselves.
>  - --
>
>
>    David
>
>
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
> >
> >  iEYEARECAAYFAkd3u/cACgkQAO0wNI1X4QFFVwCfd6QS48qopYilUfX5uYPtUK2K
> >  n5gAoLiVAGszG6fn823u1iUCFIMnthr+
> >  =welF
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>     
    It is somewhat more difficult if the subject is unknown and steps to 
get it are unknown and you do not know what it does. This is typical of 
Fedora when you first see it.

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karl Larsen wrote:
>  David Boles wrote:
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>   
> >>>> David Boles wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> It's all part of the dumbing down that Linux is going through.
> >>>>
> >>>> The Infinite monkey theorem.  ;-)
> >>>>       
>  
>   
> >>>    I disagree. If you drive the documentation train Fedora will go down
> >>> in flames. What you use as an example of poor instruction is the best I
> >>> have seen in a long time. He tells you what it is. He tells you how to
> >>> get it. He tells you where it is on your computer. Then he goes to the
> >>> next subject on the same page which is Java.
> >>>     
>  
>   
> >>>    You power users are a small group. You just want the basics man!
> >>> There are a lot more people who are new users who will like the way
> >>> Finley did it. He went to Umbuto because you guys drove him there. But
> >>> if you have your way there will be no more new users.
> >>>     
>  
>  
>  I would not consider myself to be a power user but thanks for the
>  completment. I learned Linux the hard way. Myself with no schooling. I
>  bought and read books about it *before* i ever installed it the first
>  time. In other words? I knew a little about it before I started.
>  
>  And yes the Docs can be a little sparse but it is assumed that you
>  already know something about what you are doing. Or you *should* know
>  something.
>  
>  Would you prefer instructions like this?
>  
>  How to fuel your car.
>  
>  1) Drive to the fueling station
>  2) Pull up to the fuel pump.
>  3) Place the transmission in Park
>  4) Turn off the engine.
>  5) Remove the key
>  6) Unbuckle your seatbelt
>  7) ...
>  
>  Shall I go on? Or.
>  
>  1) Drive to the fueling station
>  2) Fuel your car
>  3) Pay for the fuel
>  4) Leave
>  
>  You already know the other parts.  ;-)
>  
>  It, Linux, is not always easy. But I think that sometimes users actually
>  make it harder for themselves.
> > 
>     It is somewhat more difficult if the subject is unknown and steps
> to
>  get it are unknown and you do not know what it does. This is typical of
>  Fedora when you first see it. 

What, please give me an example subject, do you think is, or was,
difficult? Perhaps I can give you some 'instruction searching tips'.
That, along with some books, was how i learned what I know.

Be glad to try to help.

- --


  David
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkd3yt4ACgkQAO0wNI1X4QGf2ACdEuioGnPF/yTntsF0OWOBOaCW
> FeUAoLSY0VXvbwneWhClYRPpZ7X+dWv/
> =5BU+
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Karl Larsen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>    
> > David Boles wrote:
> > Karl Larsen wrote:
> >  
> >     
> >>>> David Boles wrote:
> >>>>     
> >>>>           
> >  
> >     
> >>>> console.perms.5 - linux man page
> >>>> http://www.maconlinux.net/linux-man-pages/en/console.perms.5.html
> >>>>
> >>>> 26.4. Making Files Accessible From the Console
> >>>> http://tinyurl.com/25t8f2
> >>>>
> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-5-manual/Deployment_Gu...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> It took longer to write and cut & paste this than it did to find it.
> >>>>
> >>>>     
> >>>>           
> >  
> >     
> >>>>    As I have already said the man page is useless. The other referances
> >>>> are for another linux. You have explained nothing!
> >>>>     
> >>>>           
> > Linux is Linux Karl. This is system stuff that you asked about here and
> > has little to do with Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE, Mandriva, or others.
> > Other than they all use this. This same stuff, if you will, 'fits' *all*
> > Linux distributions.
> >
> > In the information links I posted is/are the answers to your questions.
> > If you really want someone to drop by your house and do it for you that
> > takes a paid for Linux. Like RHEL or SUSE.
> >
> > But perhaps, if you really care for the help, you should start a new
> > thread because this one no longer fits the Subject: line.
> >     
>
>    
> >    Nope I wanted you to write something that explains how you get a
> > /dev/xxx to change owner IF you do the right thing. I know how to do
> > this. Do you? I have learned but it took a long time!
> >     
>
>
>  You wanted me to write how "you get a /dev/xxx to change owner"? I have
>  no idea how to do that. Nor do I care to learn how to do that. Nor do I
>  understand *why* I would do that. Nor have I ever needed to do that.
>
>  Everything I have and use is standard hardware and software and my
>  'stuff' works.
>
>  You asked about console.perms and that was what the information links I
>  posted provided. Which I did for you and that did nothing for me. don't
>  you think that you would have learned more by reading this than having
>  me give you a 'step-by-step' set of directions? Ya' know? Do this. then
>  do this? What do you learn from that? Nothing.
>
>  Next time you have a problem or a question? Look it up yourself. I'm
>  sorry that I tried to be helpful. I *promise* that I will never try to
>  help you again.
>
>  Have a good evening.
>  - --
>
>
>    David
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
> >
> >  iEYEARECAAYFAkd4OGkACgkQAO0wNI1X4QGJXQCguw5szHm3+P67HLouDesbiWMK
> >  baAAn1m0577GMqQ3+pos0AHlN/ZEk8Ur
> >  =ZnUD
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>     
    Fine David and I will never again help you. You have a bad case of I 
am better than you. You should treat that.

Karl

And you do sound like, if you don't do it my way your and asshole, and 
so it will be no problem at all to not get your worthless man page.

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 02 January 2008, Dean S. Messing wrote:
> David Boles wrote:
> > Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > This whole thread started with some people being confused about using
> > jigdo, the setup, and having difficulty getting it to work. And
> > misconceptions of what you had produced.
> >
> > I remember your announcement(s). And you, all of you, should be
> > commended for doing a wonderful job.
>
> I, too, would like to thank you (Jeroen, and all), for providing the
> respins via jigdo.  I've now downloaded 9 DVDs worth of data and I've
> done it _much_ faster than I can ever remember doing it via .torrent.
>
> In spite of the complaints by some about how hard jigdo was to figure
> out, I wasn't at all bothered by the 20-30 minutes of futzing around
> to get things downloading.  Output and status messages are a little
> quirky but I'm happy to trade the dog-slow .torrent non-sense (with
> its very fine GUI interface) for this.  The only improvement I'd
> really appreciate is an "overall % complete" meter.  But that's an
> upstream issue.
>
> Thanks again for your good work!
>
> Dean 
I'll have to second that motion myself, jigdo pulled the 64 bit F8 in just a 
few hours, where bittorrent might still be working on it.  And its updating 
the install plus putting in kde right now on my lappy.  Looks good so far, 
feels good so far (even if it is gnome with all its nagging housewife crap, 
it won't even let you sudo cuz gene is not in the list of sudoers, gotta fix 
that bs!)

So how do you edit that list if it takes root to do it?

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If the very old will remember, the very young will listen.
		-- Chief Dan George

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
> > David Boles wrote:
> > Karl Larsen wrote:
> >  
> >
> >
> > The URL is the link to the jigdo file download templates. The script
> > that runs needs those files because they contain the iso template, the
> > paths data for the new files, and the 'selection' that lets you tell the
> > script what you want to download and create.
> >
> > Good luck.  ;-)
> >
>  
> >    That is well and good. That web page full of images is interesting.
> > How do I write a help section on choosing what to extract from that page?
>  
>  
>  If you are *looking* at this page in a browser that is *not* what you
>  are supposed to be doing.
>  
>  http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/20071218/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8.j...
>  
>  This is the URL that the jigdo program asks for in the startup. The
>  second question is which (pick a number) iso do you want to update. The
>  third question is where is your existing source (if you have one). If
>  you don't it will build your new iso all from downloads.
>   
You should not link these files directly as they might become obsolete 
in the future, and cease to exist on the location you link.

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

Kam Leo wrote:
>  On Dec 26, 2007 10:22 AM, Robert P. J. Day
> <rpjday(a)crashcourse.ca&gt; wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
> >
> >> All we need now is someone to author the cookbook and someone to
> >> contribute the first recipe.
> > http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
> >
> >> Karl?
> > i must kill you now.  :-)
> >
> > rday
>  
>  Fedora Unity Project provides a valuable service. Unfortunately, their
>  site lacks continuity and, as you have written, adequate
>  documentation. The person(s) who created the .jigdo files showed
>  his/her/their creativity by including all architecture options within
>  one file. It must have been a real ego booster to be able to perform
>  this trick. However, this (these) person(s) need a swift kick in the
>  behind(s) for not documenting this departure from the jigdo README.
>   
Thank you for your tremendously contributive criticism.

https://fedorahosted.org/pyjigdo/

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Beartooth]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 03:11:54 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
	[snipperoo] 
>  i tweaked the wiki page to emphasize that, yes, it *is* the
> jigdo-lite
>  command that you run -- that wasn't a typo, as a couple commenters might
>  have thought.
>  
>  and i added the commands to unmount the DVD from under /media and
>  remount it under /mnt to get around the issue with the initial mount
>  point having embedded spaces, for those who aren't familiar with
>  manually mounting media.
>  
>  http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/ 
Getting_Fedora_respins_with_Jigdo

	I had another look this morning, and found the revised directions 
fabulous, simply fabulous -- I did what they said, and jigdo started 
right up; what's more, it seemed to be giving me percentages accomplished 
at a glorious rate.

	That was over four hours ago. It seems the percentages, like 
yum's, are of individual pieces -- out of however many tens of thousands 
of such pieces are on the everything DVD -- with, as others have 
commented, *no* *way* to let you even guess how well or how much it's 
doing.

	What has also become obvious is that jigdo keeps jumping around 
from mirror to mirror like a bedbug with St. Vitus Dance on a hot tin 
roof. Is it supposed to do *that*??

	There are five files that look to be relevant, showing (all with 
padlocks) in the nautilus of my home directory, the place I had told 
jigdo to put the .iso when it got it together.

	One ends in .jigdo, and seems steady at 529 KB; one in .iso.list, 
also apparently steady at 325 KB; one in .iso.template, steady at 183 MB; 
one in .iso.tmp, steady 3.2 GB; and one is called jigdo-file-cache.db, 
also steady, at 16 KB. (There is also a Fedora-Unity-<...>.iso.tmpdir up 
among the folders; it also has a padlock emblem, belongs to root, and is 
*not* steady, but still under 30 MB after all these four hours.)

	At least three times now, jigdo has declared itself 
"FINISHED" [emphasis jigdo's] -- and immediately (one or two seconds 
later) started up again, faster than I could have reacted if I'd been 
hovering over it.

	What's more, oddly enough, the nautilus view of "Computer" (on my 
desktop) correctly shows both this machine's internal CD-ROM/DVD-ROM 
drive (which contains my original F8 DVD) and its external CD-RW/DVD+-RW 
drive -- and thinks both are empty!

	Maybe that means telling it to look in /media failed, so that it 
didn't find it and isn't using it.

	And I can't find where it's *holding* all this humongous 
download: the only folder under / big enough to contain even one DVD is /
home/btth, and even that shows size steady at 5.0 GB. (I suppose it'll 
find its way into that .isotmpdir folder in time, but where is it 
meanwhile??)

	Fwiw, gnome-system-monitor shows jigdo-lite, with wget as a 
dependency from it -- both sleeping.

	Yet the bedbug dance goes on .... 
-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck Linux Convert
Fedora 8; Alpine 0.99999, Pan 0.132; Privoxy 3.0.6;
Dillo 0.8.6, Galeon 2.0.3, Epiphany 2.20, Opera 9.24, Firefox 2.0
Remember I know precious little of what I am talking about.

[Karl Larsen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>    
> > On Sat, 29 Dec 2007, Ric Moore wrote:
> >
> >     
> >> On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 11:52 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >>       
> >>> all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time to
> >>> figure out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm
> >>> guessing that, in most cases, readers aren't interested in a
> >>> long-winded overview of things -- they just want to know what
> >>> commands to run to get something done, which is all i wanted in
> >>> the first place.
> >>>
> >>> in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook" with
> >>> tight, concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if
> >>> they choose to read up later on the underlying operations, then
> >>> that's their choice.
> >>>         
> >> A wonderful example of that is http://www.stanton-finley.net/ which
> >> is clear, concise and the content works every time and, for the most
> >> part, still does. Too bad he went to the Ubuntu scheme of things
> >> after FC5. Ric
> >>       
> >   i will (sort of) agree with you.  yes, finley's website had/has
> > piles of cool advice on how to do things.  my only beef with it is
> > that it is simply too verbose.  here's an example -- how to install
> > yumex:
> >
> > http://www.stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_5_installation_notes.html#Yumex
> >
> >   sure, that explanation is correct but, man, it's wordy.  what's
> > wrong with just saying:  "as root, run
> >
> >   # yum -y install yumex"
> >
> >  seriously, how many times do you need to be told to open a terminal
> > and type "su"?  yes, i realize that's being annoyingly picky, but why
> > take 15 lines to say what can be said just as accurately in two?
> >     
>
>
>  It's all part of the dumbing down that Linux is going through.
>
>  The Infinite monkey theorem.  ;-)
>  - --
>
>
>    David
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
> >
> >  iEYEARECAAYFAkd2/k4ACgkQAO0wNI1X4QFPMwCgwIGvgBtIofyZn4QXnkl6SNHL
> >  iHAAnjeXUAPJoamk28l/weH1LqXHDFYA
> >  =psRT
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>     
    I disagree. If you drive the documentation train Fedora will go down 
in flames. What you use as an example of poor instruction is the best I 
have seen in a long time. He tells you what it is. He tells you how to 
get it. He tells you where it is on your computer. Then he goes to the 
next subject on the same page which is Java.

    You power users are a small group. You just want the basics man! 
There are a lot more people who are new users who will like the way 
Finley did it. He went to Umbuto because you guys drove him there. But 
if you have your way there will be no more new users.

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007, Karl Larsen wrote:

>  David Boles wrote:
>  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  > Hash: SHA1
>  >
>  > Robert P. J. Day wrote: 
>  > >   i will (sort of) agree with you.  yes, finley's
> website
>  > > had/has piles of cool advice on how to do things.  my only beef
>  > > with it is that it is simply too verbose.  here's an example --
>  > > how to install yumex:
>  > >
>  > > http://www.stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_5_installation_notes.html#Yumex
>  > >
>  > >   sure, that explanation is correct but, man, it's wordy.
>  > > what's wrong with just saying:  "as root, run
>  > >
>  > >   # yum -y install yumex"
>  > >
>  > >  seriously, how many times do you need to be told to open a
>  > > terminal and type "su"?  yes, i realize that's being annoyingly
>  > > picky, but why take 15 lines to say what can be said just as
>  > > accurately in two? 
>  > It's all part of the dumbing down that Linux is going
> through.
>  >
>  > The Infinite monkey theorem.  ;-) 
>     I disagree. If you drive the documentation train Fedora will go
>  down in flames. 
you're right, karl ... and that's because i am the all-knowing and
infinitely powerful rday, and i have the frightening ability to
single-handedly destroy one of the world's most popular linux distros
by writing documentation the way i prefer and publishing it on my wiki
where people can choose to read it.  or not.  tremble before me!
tremble, i say, puny humans!  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

um ... sorry, where was i?  oh, right.

>  What you use as an example of poor instruction is the best I have
>  seen in a long time. He tells you what it is. He tells you how to
>  get it. He tells you where it is on your computer. Then he goes to
>  the next subject on the same page which is Java. 
except that mr. finley's section on java is a good example of what i
think is the (admittedly nitpicky) drawback to his otherwise stellar
online HOWTOs -- it's unnecessarily verbose and repetitive:

http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_5_installation_notes.html#Java

seriously, what's the advantage of constantly typing:

  Type:

    # command

  Hit enter.

over and over again?  sure, it's correct, but after a while, it gets
kind of monotonous and annoying.  i mean, really, karl, how many
people do you know who need to be told repeatedly to hit ENTER after
typing in a command?

oh, wait ... forget i asked that.

>     You power users are a small group. You just want the basics man!
>  There are a lot more people who are new users who will like the way
>  Finley did it. He went to Umbuto because you guys drove him there. 
i'm pretty sure you meant "umberto", but most of us probably
translated that automatically, karl.

>  But if you have your way there will be no more new users. 
nonsense, karl.  i promise to use my new superpowers only for good.
happy now?

rday
--


========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

Home page:                                         http://crashcourse.ca
Fedora Cookbook:    http://crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
========================================================================

[Karl Larsen]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Sun, 30 Dec 2007, Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>    
> > David Boles wrote:
> >     
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >> Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >>       
>
>    
> >>>   i will (sort of) agree with you.  yes, finley's website
> >>> had/has piles of cool advice on how to do things.  my only beef
> >>> with it is that it is simply too verbose.  here's an example --
> >>> how to install yumex:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_5_installation_notes.html#Yumex
> >>>
> >>>   sure, that explanation is correct but, man, it's wordy.
> >>> what's wrong with just saying:  "as root, run
> >>>
> >>>   # yum -y install yumex"
> >>>
> >>>  seriously, how many times do you need to be told to open a
> >>> terminal and type "su"?  yes, i realize that's being
> annoyingly
> >>> picky, but why take 15 lines to say what can be said just as
> >>> accurately in two?
> >>>         
>
>    
> >> It's all part of the dumbing down that Linux is going through.
> >>
> >> The Infinite monkey theorem.  ;-)
> >>       
>
>    
> >    I disagree. If you drive the documentation train Fedora will go
> > down in flames.
> >     
>
>  you're right, karl ... and that's because i am the all-knowing and
>  infinitely powerful rday, and i have the frightening ability to
>  single-handedly destroy one of the world's most popular linux distros
>  by writing documentation the way i prefer and publishing it on my wiki
>  where people can choose to read it.  or not.  tremble before me!
>  tremble, i say, puny humans!  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
>
>  um ... sorry, where was i?  oh, right.
>
>    
> > What you use as an example of poor instruction is the best I have
> > seen in a long time. He tells you what it is. He tells you how to
> > get it. He tells you where it is on your computer. Then he goes to
> > the next subject on the same page which is Java.
> >     
>
>  except that mr. finley's section on java is a good example of what i
>  think is the (admittedly nitpicky) drawback to his otherwise stellar
>  online HOWTOs -- it's unnecessarily verbose and repetitive:
>
>  http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_5_installation_notes.html#Java
>
>  seriously, what's the advantage of constantly typing:
>
>    Type:
>
>      # command
>
>    Hit enter.
>
>  over and over again?  sure, it's correct, but after a while, it gets
>  kind of monotonous and annoying.  i mean, really, karl, how many
>  people do you know who need to be told repeatedly to hit ENTER after
>  typing in a command?
>
>  oh, wait ... forget i asked that.
>
>    
> >    You power users are a small group. You just want the basics man!
> > There are a lot more people who are new users who will like the way
> > Finley did it. He went to Umbuto because you guys drove him there.
> >     
>
>  i'm pretty sure you meant "umberto", but most of us probably
>  translated that automatically, karl.
>
>    
> > But if you have your way there will be no more new users.
> >     
>
>  nonsense, karl.  i promise to use my new superpowers only for good.
>  happy now?
>
>  rday
>  --
>
>
>  ========================================================================
>  Robert P. J. Day
>  Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
>  Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
>  Home page:                                         http://crashcourse.ca
>  Fedora Cookbook:    http://crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
>  ========================================================================
>
>     
    Not really rday. We are not all perfect like you. But if we try we 
do good work. How long did it take you to write your instructions for 
jigdo? I hope it about 30 minutes. Mine took 6 hours and it isn't right yet.


Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

CVS is dead (was: how to jigdo download a fedora 8 re-spin in one easy step?)

[Howard Howell]

On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 22:38 -0300, Martin Marques wrote:
>  Karl Larsen escribió:
>  > 
>  >    Beginning now I planned to learn what CVS is and look for 
>  > instructions on wiki care and feeding.
>  
>  Please Karl. CVS is dead. Check Mercurial, which is great, has a book to 
>  learn how to use it, is distributed and has an excelent help:
>  
>  $ yum install mercurial
>  $ hg help
>  
>  Be happy! :-D
>   
SourceForge still uses CVS, as do many other development places.  There
are other revision control packages, but until you mentioned it, I had
never heard of Mercurial.  Of course I am an "Old Fart", so that may
mean something to put it in context.

Regards,
Les H

[John Poelstra]

Karl Larsen said the following on 12/26/2007 12:03 PM Pacific Time:
>  Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
> >
> >  
> >> All we need now is someone to author the cookbook and someone to
> >> contribute the first recipe.
> >>     
> >
> > http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
> > 
This is great.  I've been meaning to blog about the same steps as I 
encountered some of the same issues.

> >> Karl?
> >>     
> >
> > i must kill you now.  :-)
> >   
>     I know nothing really about the cookbook or how to run a wiki. But 
>  here lies an interesting possibility. If  rday can be given  assess to 
>  the wiki pages then something good might happen.
>   
Why not create a jigdo HOWTO page on the *Fedora* wiki where people 
searching for Fedora content are more likely to find it?

John

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Gene Heskett wrote:

>  And I'm back, and it didn't wait, its writing an .iso.tmp in
> the
>  directory I was cd'd to.  If its going to do that, should that not
>  also be noted in the wiki page that one should be cd'd to the target
>  location before starting jigdo-lite, or did I miss that little
>  detail? 
yup, you missed that detail:

"cd to your preferred working directory (which has enough space for
the final ISO image plus a download working directory)."

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

CVS is dead

[Martin Marques]

Robert P. J. Day escribió:
>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Martin Marques wrote:
>  
> > Robert P. J. Day escribió:
> >> and if one were to start a new project that didn't have to be strictly
> >> backward compatible with anything, and one already had a decent
> >> grounding in CVS, subversion would also be a reasonable choice.
> > Why?
>  
>  because subversion corrects a number of CVS "issues", and the command
>  structure is very similar to that of CVS, so all that CVS knowledge
>  can be transferred over fairly quickly. 
I will talk about Mercurial, that is what I use.

Mercurial fixes all the CVS *issues* and also has the same command
structure:

hg status
hg commit -m "some comment"
hg add
hg diff
etc.

And you can start to enter the wonderful world of distributed VCS. :-D

>  i didn't say that subversion was the best version control system
> of
>  all the possible choices -- only that, if one was already fairly
>  conversant with CVS, it would be a "reasonable" choice for a new
>  project. 
All the new VCS have tried to keep the same command structure, not only svn

[Tim]

On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 07:29 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
>  I just tried it again, still dead.  Ping has been sitting here for
>  about half an hour:
>  [root@coyote linux-2.6.24-rc6]# ping crashcourse.ca
>  PING crashcourse.ca (64.235.106.9) 56(84) bytes of data.  
The "site" works here, too, but it's not pingable.  Responding to pings
is an entirely different networking issue, and isn't really usable as a
diagnostic tool for whether a webserver is serving.

Try a different browser, just in case Firefox (or whatever else) has got
it into its head that the site can't be reached, and it just isn't going
to try again.  Been there, done that, but don't have the tee shirt...

-- 
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
 important to the thread.)

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Gene Heskett wrote:

>  On Thursday 27 December 2007, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  >  ok, there's a new and improved wiki page which removes any necessity
>  >for messing with mounting and unmounting.
>  >
>  >http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Getting_Fedora_respins_with_Jigdo 
>  Humm, dns resolves it, but its on the missing list from here. 
ok, that's a bit of a mystery -- everything looks good from here.

rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Lamar Owen]

On Wednesday 02 January 2008, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  >   for the first time, i'd like to download the fedora 8 x86_64 re-spin
>  > and, to be frank, there's not a single web page i've found that tells
>  > me how to use jigdo to do it. 
>  Reading this thread just now, here's my response to your mail:
>  http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/ 
FWIW, I grabbed the Unity respin Friday (also grabbed the git of the config so 
I could try my hand at building a respin with revisor; just fun to play with 
in off time), and the only thing I found confusing was the output that 
jigdo-lite throws at you.  It cycles through and says 'finished' more than 
once; now, on my fast connection here (100Mb/s) it went by quickly, but I can 
just imagine what it would have been like on even my DSL at home.  

It wasn't too difficult, though, and since I keep a local mirror rsynced of 
updates and Everything on a USB drive, I was even able to figure out in a few 
minutes what to do to make jigdo-lite use that mirror.

But I'm not a newbie; but even then jigdo was a little strange.  

As to changes to your already pretty good instructions, I would point out 
that, if you edit the .jigdo to add local repositories, you need the 
trailing '/' in the path.  For that matter, any path in the .jigdo needs the 
trailing '/' to work, as jigdo doesn't add the slash if it isn't already 
there, but just does a blind concatenate.

Also, having the sample output, and mentioning that, once jigdo-lite has 
loaded in your CD/DVD or other existing files, you just need to press ENTER 
every time it asks where to find the files (and it WILL ask).  Having a 
sample run's output available as another page might be nice, since 
jigdo-lite's output is so confusing.  The progress is very difficult to 
follow (and I know that's a jigdo upstream issue, but having an explanation 
of what to expect as the output in this case would help people tremendously) 
unless you know to look for and pause at the 'x of y files' points in the 
downloads.

Otherwise, it's pretty good as-is.  And, if no one else says this, I will: 
Many Many Many thanks for the re-spins.  This makes installing fresh F8 much 
much much more pleasant; I know that I personally don't want to have to 
remember how to work around all those installer 'quirks' found in the 
original F8 release every time I install it anew.
--
Lamar Owen
Chief Information Officer
Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
1 PARI Drive
Rosman, NC  28772
[phone]
www.pari.edu

[Karl Larsen]

Dean S. Messing wrote:
>  Karl wrote:
>  : Tim wrote:
>  : > Tim:
>  : >   
>  : >>> Try a different browser, just in case Firefox (or 
>  :     Now I have a file that appears to be a respin of F8. It seemed to 
>  : work fine but the system doesn't want to stop! Instead of stopping it 
>  : keeps asking for the location of another DVD to read :-)
>  : 
>  :     But Conrol C stopped it and the file size is what I expected for a 
>  : fully updated F8 3443793697 2007-12-27 15:00 but it is a .iso.tmp file. 
>  : I can fix that.
>
>  I would be in doubt if I were you.  I didn't use a mounted reference
>  DVD for my jigdo downloads but when they finished, each did a
>  final checksum on the .iso and renamed it w/o the .tmp suffix.
>
>  I have no idea if restarting will just begin where it left off or
>  start the process all over again.
>
>  Also note that the size of the .iso.tmp is misleading.  Jigdo
>  allocates the entire space for the .iso at the beginning and populates
>  it with the directory/file structure, but those files are full of
>  nulls until the appropriate package is downloaded.
>
>  :     I used the jigdo file that rday has on his web page and choose 
>  : number 6 for a i386 DVD which seems to be correct.
>
>  In short I would not trust your .iso.tmp unless you've checksummed it
>  manually.  For fun, you can also mount the .iso.tmp file via loopback
>  and look inside.  Try doing `rpm -pqi' on a few of the .rpm files to
>  see what you get.  When I did that at the beginning of my run, the
>  command returned an empty line. When I looked inside (with emacs)
>  it was filled with ^@  (nulls).
>
>  :     I have been collecting bits of writing and copies of terminal data 
>  : to be part of a new potential Instruction for using Jigdo. It will be 
>  : ready tomorrow I hope.
>
>  We'll be holding our breath until then. œ-)
>
>
>  Dean
>
>     
    I have forgot the darn loopback thing. Looking in man mount there is 
nothing loopback listed. Anyone recall?

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

CVS is dead

[Martin Marques]

Les Mikesell escribió:
>  Martin Marques wrote:
>  
> >
> >> up side is that you can track development 'forwards' from any point. 
> >
> > Uhh???
> >
> > $ hg up -r SOME_OLD_REV
>  
>  Start from a tagged point in development. Branch several times for 
>  different changes. Can you find all subsequent work? 
What are you talking about? Do you know that a tag isn't necessarily a 
branch (not even on CVS)?

$ cvs tag my_tag
$ cd ../newdir/
$ cvs co -r my_tag myrepo
... change some file....

Now, try to commit the change in the new dir? See? It's a dead end in 
CVS too. You need to branch to be able to commit to a *sticky tag*.

The thing is that, for example in Mercurial, branches and tags are 
different things, even though the idea is to put a marker at a point and 
then start a branch or not.

> >
> > What? Les do you really know what you're talking about?
>  
>  I'd like to hear that I don't.  With CVS, if you have any of the 
>  development you have all of it.  With svn, tags are (by convention) dead 
>  end snapshots and there is no way to track forward development. 
I'm not a Subversion expert, only CVS and now Mercurial (not ann expert 
yet :-) ).

>  Assume 
>  you worked on something some time ago, ending by creating a certain tag. 
>   Now several other people create branches for additional work.  How can 
>  you tell that, starting from the tag you last knew about?  You could 
>  start from any of the branches and work backwards but you can't see what 
>  branches were created or when going forwards. 
I don't understand. Where do they branch? On your working branch or 
another (like HEAD for example)? BTW different branches mean different 
development, or why would you branch?

Remember tags are just a way of marking your development. In CVS you can 
tell it to, besides tagging putting a branch which will have the name of 
the tag. If you don't branch, you're at a dead end, just like in SVN.

> >> This must be even worse in distributed VC's where the
> changes might 
> >> not even exist in your copy of the repository.  Doesn't it bother you 
> >> to know you might be repeating someone else's mistakes because you 
> >> can't track all the other changes from a given point?
> >
> > What mistake if it's not in the repository?
>  
>  That's the point - you won't know. 
You can't know in any VCS.

> > The same thing would happen with CVS if you were coding without 
> > commiting to the main server. Nobody will be able to know what you are 
> > doing. Same if your coworkers don't update regularly. How can they 
> > know what you fixed?
>  
>  If you aren't committing to the central repository, you aren't using CVS. 
I repare a bug, but don't commit, it's the same as commiting to a 
distributed VCS and not pushing.

> > In distributed VCS you use pull and push for this.
>  
>  How can you tell whether that was always done or not? 
By communicatting with the other developers. Or do you work inside a jar?

[Ed Greshko]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Gene Heskett wrote:
>  
> > On Thursday 27 December 2007, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >>  ok, there's a new and improved wiki page which removes any necessity
> >> for messing with mounting and unmounting.
> >>
> >> http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Getting_Fedora_respins_with_Jigdo
>  
> > Humm, dns resolves it, but its on the missing list from here.
>  
>  ok, that's a bit of a mystery -- everything looks good from here.
>   
Works fine from here....

-- 
The hatred of relatives is the most violent.
		-- Tacitus (c.55 - c.117)

[Karl Larsen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Gene Heskett wrote:
>    
> > On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
> >
> > Maybe so, but you have obviously done this several times previously, David.  
> > As far as the gui is concerned, no it is not needed, but the majority of us 
> > would like to have one with 2 or three file requesters to use, one for 
> > getting the src listing from the url, one for finding that src list on your 
> > machine once its been downloaded, and one to tell it where to put the 
> > results.  With such a working gui that launched the jigdo-lite as a 
> > background process giving it the correct syntax and data as derived from the 
> > file requesters, I'd bet that jigdo usage would multiply by 10 in a week.
> >     
>
>
>  I don't recall if I pointed you at this site page before or not. I have
>  others. But it just about does not get more clear than this. Done by
>  Fedora people, for Fedora people, to download Fedora isos.
>
>
>  Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
>  http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
>
>
>  This site gives very good, clear instructions. They were for me. And, as
>  an experiment, I just did this again while running Windows XP Pro. That
>  was interesting because there are next to no instructions for that way.
>  And none of the Linux instructions 'work' in the Windows jigdo. They are
>  all actually writen for Debian isos and had to be edited.
>
>  And yes I have done this before now. Several times. Just for giggles and
>  grins. I have also, somewhere, the necessary rsync CLI that will let you
>   'change' a rc1 beta to a rc2 beta iso by just 'diffing' the changed
>  parts of the contents between the two.
>  - --
>
>
>    David
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
> >
> >  iEYEARECAAYFAkdzCrkACgkQAO0wNI1X4QEqqwCgvbX5OL1pasaQ2AUW8n6BItTQ
> >  9ZAAnjZoec7rKV8HsTobJz5EIIOH172U
> >  =eAnM
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>     
    Well I agree that that web page is pretty good, but it is very 
spotty data. It does not say "use the jigdo software in a command-line 
way" but you do. And it says if you wait and all is well it will ask for 
the location of your DVD data.

    I did learn you need to put the right stuff in /.jigdo but not 
really how to put it there. It is left as something to experiment with.

    From a writer's point of view the web page might be the best, but 
the best is very VERY poor.

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

CVS is dead (was: how to jigdo download a fedora 8 re-spin in one easy step?)

[Michael Schwendt]

On 27/12/2007, Martin Marques wrote:
>  Karl Larsen escribió:
>  >
>  >    Beginning now I planned to learn what CVS is and look for
>  > instructions on wiki care and feeding.
>
>  Please Karl. CVS is dead. Check Mercurial, which is great, has a book to
>  learn how to use it, is distributed and has an excelent help: 
Still, CVS is very relevant to Fedora, since several of its
repositories use CVS. The source RPM contents are maintained in CVS,
for example.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
> >
> > Maybe so, but you have obviously done this several times previously,
> > David. As far as the gui is concerned, no it is not needed, but the
> > majority of us would like to have one with 2 or three file requesters to
> > use, one for getting the src listing from the url, one for finding that
> > src list on your machine once its been downloaded, and one to tell it
> > where to put the results.  With such a working gui that launched the
> > jigdo-lite as a background process giving it the correct syntax and data
> > as derived from the file requesters, I'd bet that jigdo usage would
> > multiply by 10 in a week.
>
> I don't recall if I pointed you at this site page before or not. I have
> others. But it just about does not get more clear than this. Done by
> Fedora people, for Fedora people, to download Fedora isos.
>
>
> Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
> http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
>
>
> This site gives very good, clear instructions. They were for me. And, as
> an experiment, I just did this again while running Windows XP Pro. That
> was interesting because there are next to no instructions for that way.
> And none of the Linux instructions 'work' in the Windows jigdo. They are
> all actually writen for Debian isos and had to be edited.
>
> And yes I have done this before now. Several times. Just for giggles and
> grins. I have also, somewhere, the necessary rsync CLI that will let you
>  'change' a rc1 beta to a rc2 beta iso by just 'diffing' the changed
> parts of the contents between the two.
> --
>  
And that, David, TBT, makes a heck of a lot more sense.  That should be 
published, but I suspect a carefull reading of the rsync docs would soon 
re-invent that particular wheel.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The secret source of humor is not joy but sorrow; there is no humor in Heaven.
		-- Mark Twain

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 26 December 2007, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:
> >
> > Beartooth: The gui is broken, as the docs we *do* have clearly say.  Use
> > the cli, jigdo-lite version.  Its been broken since it release in 2004 or
> > 2005, and no one to my knowledge has touched it with an eye toward fixing
> > it.
>
> There is no working GUI for jigdo. And, IMO, one is not really needed.
> Jigdo-lite 0.7.3 is *not* broken. I have this theory. If it ain't broke
> - don't fix it.  ;-)
>
> While all of this complaining about 'it's too hard' was going on I took
> about ten minutes to find the files and instructions for jidgo and the
> Unity DVD iso file. It took about 1 1/2 hours for jigdo to download the
> changes and create the new iso. I then tested it on my beta/rc
> partition. It boots and installs with no problems.  YMMV 
Maybe so, but you have obviously done this several times previously, David.  
As far as the gui is concerned, no it is not needed, but the majority of us 
would like to have one with 2 or three file requesters to use, one for 
getting the src listing from the url, one for finding that src list on your 
machine once its been downloaded, and one to tell it where to put the 
results.  With such a working gui that launched the jigdo-lite as a 
background process giving it the correct syntax and data as derived from the 
file requesters, I'd bet that jigdo usage would multiply by 10 in a week.

> > Sorry to hear that.  If the bandwidth is available, I've
> found it easier
> > and easier to pull the iso's as each new release sneaks out the door.
>
> --
>
>
>   David 


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Anger is momentary madness.
		-- Horace

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:

>  Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  >   for the first time, i'd like to download the fedora 8 x86_64 re-spin
>  > and, to be frank, there's not a single web page i've found that tells
>  > me how to use jigdo to do it.
>  >
>  >   i've perused the tutorials and HOWTOs at fedoraunity.org and
>  > followed links, and i'm now fairly conversant on the rationale behind
>  > re-spins and why jigdo was developed and a whole lot of other stuff
>  > but i've yet to find a single page that says, "oh, you want a re-spin?
>  > follow these steps."
>  >
>  >   seriously, this is what i think has been a fundamental failing of a
>  > lot of online fedora documentation -- the notion of a simple "recipe":
>  > do these things, and you will get what you want.  instead, there's
>  > typically a great deal of philosophical substantiation, while the poor
>  > reader is just sitting there, thinking, "well, yeah, but i just want
>  > to *do* something, so how do i *do* it?"  (it's sort of like, when i
>  > ask someone for the time, i want them to tell me the time, i don't
>  > need to be told how to build a watch.)
>  >
>  >   so, really, when i decided to grab a re-spin, i figured to invest a
>  > minute or two googling, find the command, and run it.  i'm still
>  > looking.  why is it typically this time-consuming?
>
>  Not 100% sure what you are asking...but are you seeking
>  http://atterer.net/jigdo/ for guidance? 
sort of, but not quite.  (in fact, i'd already been there.)  let me
explain.

as someone who writes a *lot* of technical documentation (mostly
linux-related courseware manuals), i'm always interested in finding
clear and concise ways to explain how to do things.  and sometimes, as
an experiment, if i'm trying to do something for the first time, i
approach it from the perspective of pretending i know *nothing* about
a particular topic, and see how long it takes me to figure out how to
do what i want.

in terms of grabbing a fedora 8 x86_64 respin, i figured i'd just
start with google and see how long it took me to find the appropriate
command.  so i googled and started following links and, yes, i ended
up at atterer.net but, technically, if i'm new to jigdo, i'm not
looking for "guidance", i'm looking for how to *do* something.  and,
IMHO:

1) i should eventually find the command or commands to run, and

2) if it's related to downloading fedora ISOs, i shouldn't have to
leave a fedora-related website to learn how.

maybe i just wandered off following the wrong link but, if someone
else on this list wants to test this and has never downloaded a
respin, i'm curious as to how long it would take to figure out how to
do it based on just reading the online docs and following links.

maybe it's just me.  maybe i need more coffee this morning.  but i
still haven't run across a simple paragraph that reads, "oh, you want
a respin?  do this, this and this, and it's yours."  instead, what you
normally get is a rambling, philosophical discourse on what some tool
is for, and why it's useful and so on.  personally, when i ask someone
the time, i want them to tell me the time; i don't want to be told how
to build a watch.

anyway, if there's single web page that gives the recipe, i will of
course eat crow and be suitably embarrassed.

rday

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Robert P. J. Day]

  ok, there's a new and improved wiki page which removes any necessity
for messing with mounting and unmounting.

http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Getting_Fedora_respins_with_Jigdo

rday

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 27 December 2007, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>   ok, there's a new and improved wiki page which removes any
> necessity
> for messing with mounting and unmounting.
>
> http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Getting_Fedora_respins_with_Jigdo
>
> rday
>
> ========================================================================
> Robert P. J. Day
> Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
> Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
> http://crashcourse.ca
> ======================================================================== 
Humm, dns resolves it, but its on the missing list from here.


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Program load too heavy for processor to lift.

[Kam Leo]

On Dec 26, 2007 10:22 AM, Robert P. J. Day <rpjday(a)crashcourse.ca&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
>
>  > All we need now is someone to author the cookbook and someone to
>  > contribute the first recipe.
>
>  http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
>
>  > Karl?
>
>  i must kill you now.  :-)
>
>  rday 
Fedora Unity Project provides a valuable service. Unfortunately, their
site lacks continuity and, as you have written, adequate
documentation. The person(s) who created the .jigdo files showed
his/her/their creativity by including all architecture options within
one file. It must have been a real ego booster to be able to perform
this trick. However, this (these) person(s) need a swift kick in the
behind(s) for not documenting this departure from the jigdo README.

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, David Jansen wrote:

>  On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 06:11:02AM -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  > On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, David Jansen wrote:
>  >
>  > > Thanks for putting up this cookbook, it's a nice addition to the FAQs
>  > > and wikis already available to the Fedora community.
>  > >
>  > > Perhaps a useful trick I found somewhere that avoids the spaces in file
>  > > names: you can tell the system to always mount a cd/dvd on the same
>  > > path,
>  > > e.g:
>  > >   gnome-mount --write-settings --device /dev/scd0 --mount-point dvd
>  > > and after that, all cds/dvds will appear as /media/dvd in stead of a
>  > > name with the label in it. Jigdo isn't the only application that cannot
>  > > handle the spaces, unfortunately.
>  >
>  > i'm just about to add this to the wiki page, but i want to document
>  > how to deactivate this setting as well.  from the man page for
>  > gnome-mount, i see the option "--erase-settings", so the deactivation
>  > command would then be:
>  >
>  >   $ gnome-mount --erase-settings --device /dev/sr0
>  >
>  > in my case, anyway.  does that look right?
>
>  yes, that would be the right way to do it (and with my dvd writer
>  device name substituted, it works for me to get back to the default
>  behaviour this way) 
yup, verified it myself, thanks.

rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

Home page:                                         http://crashcourse.ca
Fedora Cookbook:    http://crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
========================================================================

[David Jansen]

On Thu, Jan 10, 2008 at 06:11:02AM -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, David Jansen wrote:
>  
>  > Thanks for putting up this cookbook, it's a nice addition to the FAQs
>  > and wikis already available to the Fedora community.
>  >
>  > Perhaps a useful trick I found somewhere that avoids the spaces in file
>  > names: you can tell the system to always mount a cd/dvd on the same
>  > path,
>  > e.g:
>  >   gnome-mount --write-settings --device /dev/scd0 --mount-point dvd
>  > and after that, all cds/dvds will appear as /media/dvd in stead of a
>  > name with the label in it. Jigdo isn't the only application that cannot
>  > handle the spaces, unfortunately.
>  
>  i'm just about to add this to the wiki page, but i want to document
>  how to deactivate this setting as well.  from the man page for
>  gnome-mount, i see the option "--erase-settings", so the deactivation
>  command would then be:
>  
>    $ gnome-mount --erase-settings --device /dev/sr0
>  
>  in my case, anyway.  does that look right? 
yes, that would be the right way to do it (and with my dvd writer device
name substituted, it works for me to get back to the default behaviour
this way)
 
David

>  rday
>  
>  p.s.  i've already rewritten and expanded on a couple things over at
>  the recipe for jigdo, based on earlier readers' incessant, whiny
>  nagging ...^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H amazingly
>  useful and appreciated feedback.  :-)
>  
>  http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Getting_Fedora_respins_with_Jigdo
>  --
>  
>  ========================================================================
>  Robert P. J. Day
>  Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
>  Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>  
>  Home page:                                         http://crashcourse.ca
>  Fedora Cookbook:    http://crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
>  ========================================================================
>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, David Jansen wrote:

>  Thanks for putting up this cookbook, it's a nice addition to the
> FAQs
>  and wikis already available to the Fedora community.
>
>  Perhaps a useful trick I found somewhere that avoids the spaces in file
>  names: you can tell the system to always mount a cd/dvd on the same
>  path,
>  e.g:
>    gnome-mount --write-settings --device /dev/scd0 --mount-point dvd
>  and after that, all cds/dvds will appear as /media/dvd in stead of a
>  name with the label in it. Jigdo isn't the only application that cannot
>  handle the spaces, unfortunately. 
i'm just about to add this to the wiki page, but i want to document
how to deactivate this setting as well.  from the man page for
gnome-mount, i see the option "--erase-settings", so the deactivation
command would then be:

  $ gnome-mount --erase-settings --device /dev/sr0

in my case, anyway.  does that look right?

rday

p.s.  i've already rewritten and expanded on a couple things over at
the recipe for jigdo, based on earlier readers' incessant, whiny
nagging ...^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H amazingly
useful and appreciated feedback.  :-)

http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Getting_Fedora_respins_with_Jigdo
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

Home page:                                         http://crashcourse.ca
Fedora Cookbook:    http://crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
========================================================================

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, David Jansen wrote:

>  Thanks for putting up this cookbook, it's a nice addition to the
> FAQs
>  and wikis already available to the Fedora community.
>
>  Perhaps a useful trick I found somewhere that avoids the spaces in file
>  names: you can tell the system to always mount a cd/dvd on the same
>  path,
>  e.g:
>    gnome-mount --write-settings --device /dev/scd0 --mount-point dvd
>  and after that, all cds/dvds will appear as /media/dvd in stead of a
>  name with the label in it. Jigdo isn't the only application that cannot
>  handle the spaces, unfortunately. 
ah, nice trick -- i'll verify that and add it to the wiki page.  i
probably need to do a bit of cleanup on that page anyway.

rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

Home page:                                         http://crashcourse.ca
Fedora Cookbook:    http://crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
========================================================================

[David Jansen]

Thanks for putting up this cookbook, it's a nice addition to the FAQs
and wikis already available to the Fedora community.

Perhaps a useful trick I found somewhere that avoids the spaces in file
names: you can tell the system to always mount a cd/dvd on the same
path,
e.g:
  gnome-mount --write-settings --device /dev/scd0 --mount-point dvd
and after that, all cds/dvds will appear as /media/dvd in stead of a
name with the label in it. Jigdo isn't the only application that cannot
handle the spaces, unfortunately.

David Jansen

On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 08:43:22AM -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Karl Larsen wrote:
>  
>  > Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  
>  > > p.s.  it's still not clear if jigdo-lite is capable of using the
>  > > mount point that is automatically created by inserting the
>  > > original DVD, given that the mount point name has embedded spaces,
>  > > which is why i suggest that you need to unmount the DVD, then
>  > > manually mount it back under something like /mnt.
>  > >
>  > > has anyone got this to work using the original mount point, which
>  > > is something like "/media/Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD"?  that would
>  > > simplify things.
>  > >
>  >    Hi Rday, it looks to me like /media/"Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD" should work.
> It
>  > is what you do when using basic tools.
>  >
>  > Karl
>  
>  i tried that and other quoted variations, and none of them worked for
>  me.  are you saying it worked for you?  how odd.
>  
>  rday
>  --
>  ========================================================================
>  Robert P. J. Day
>  Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
>  Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>  
>  http://crashcourse.ca
>  ========================================================================
>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  David Boles wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Karl Larsen wrote:
> >> David Boles wrote:
> >> Karl Larsen wrote:
> >>  
> >>
> >>
> >> The URL is the link to the jigdo file download templates. The script
> >> that runs needs those files because they contain the iso template, the
> >> paths data for the new files, and the 'selection' that lets you tell the
> >> script what you want to download and create.
> >>
> >> Good luck.  ;-)
> >>
> >
> >>    That is well and good. That web page full of images is interesting.
> >> How do I write a help section on choosing what to extract from that
> >> page?
> >
> >
> > If you are *looking* at this page in a browser that is *not* what you
> > are supposed to be doing.
> >
> > http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/20071218/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8.j...
> >
> >
> > This is the URL that the jigdo program asks for in the startup. The
> > second question is which (pick a number) iso do you want to update. The
> > third question is where is your existing source (if you have one). If
> > you don't it will build your new iso all from downloads.
> >
>  
>  You should not link these files directly as they might become obsolete
>  in the future, and cease to exist on the location you link. 

I don't normally do that. Karl is a Newbie, even though he denies that,
and it was the easiest way to offer him help. It will not happen again I
assure you.

Too bad that you were not around when this was a fresh subject. It has
been dead for several days.

And we all pretty much agreed to let it be that way.
- --


  David

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> =71Dh
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Gene Heskett wrote:

>  
>  I'll have to second that motion myself, jigdo pulled the 64 bit F8 in just a 
>  few hours, where bittorrent might still be working on it.  And its updating 
>  the install plus putting in kde right now on my lappy.  Looks good so far, 
>  feels good so far (even if it is gnome with all its nagging housewife crap, 
>  it won't even let you sudo cuz gene is not in the list of sudoers, gotta fix 
>  that bs!) 

It is not necessary to install, or have installed, the GNOME Desktop to
run Fedora. Fedora runs perfectly well without GNOME. Go to the software
update/install (not sure what it is called, or where is is, in the KDE
menu and that will let you, with a GUI, completely remove the GNOME
desktop. Dependencies and all. This can also be done from the CLI but
that tends to confuse some people.


>  So how do you edit that list if it takes root to do it?
>   

You open a terminal, become root, and do the editing to the sudoers
config. Read the directions first. That is important.

- --


  David

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> =uY8G
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Dean S. Messing]

David Boles wrote:
>  Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  <snip>
>  
>  This whole thread started with some people being confused about using
>  jigdo, the setup, and having difficulty getting it to work. And
>  misconceptions of what you had produced.
>  
>  I remember your announcement(s). And you, all of you, should be
>  commended for doing a wonderful job. 
I, too, would like to thank you (Jeroen, and all), for providing the
respins via jigdo.  I've now downloaded 9 DVDs worth of data and I've
done it _much_ faster than I can ever remember doing it via .torrent.

In spite of the complaints by some about how hard jigdo was to figure
out, I wasn't at all bothered by the 20-30 minutes of futzing around
to get things downloading.  Output and status messages are a little
quirky but I'm happy to trade the dog-slow .torrent non-sense (with
its very fine GUI interface) for this.  The only improvement I'd
really appreciate is an "overall % complete" meter.  But that's an
upstream issue.

Thanks again for your good work!

Dean

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  Tim wrote:
> > On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 10:40 -0500, David Boles wrote:
> >> These re-spin isos are only really needed for fresh installs. The only
> >> difference between the original Fedora 8 release DVD(s) and the
> >> FedoraUnity re-spin DVD(s) is the updated packages as of Dec 18, 2007.
> >
> > Having watched the FC8 buzz on this list over the last few weeks, I'd
> > have thought that some sort of respinwould have been good just to get
> > past the installation showstoppers that some have experienced.  Whether
> > that be a whole installation, or just an installer startup respin.
> >
>  
>  I'm not sure I have made the announcement in all the correct locations:
>  
>  http://fedoraunity.org/news-archives/fedora-8-re-spin-released
>  
>  http://kanarip.blogspot.com/2007/12/fedora-8-re-spin-released.html
>  (which ends up on mugshot.org and digg and planet.fedoraproject.org)
>  
>  https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2007-December/msg00...
>  
>  
>  https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2007-December/msg000... 

This whole thread started with some people being confused about using
jigdo, the setup, and having difficulty getting it to work. And
misconceptions of what you had produced.

I remember your announcement(s). And you, all of you, should be
commended for doing a wonderful job.

- --


  David

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> =NGvc
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

Tim wrote:
>  On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 10:40 -0500, David Boles wrote:
> > These re-spin isos are only really needed for fresh installs. The only
> > difference between the original Fedora 8 release DVD(s) and the
> > FedoraUnity re-spin DVD(s) is the updated packages as of Dec 18, 2007.
>  
>  Having watched the FC8 buzz on this list over the last few weeks, I'd
>  have thought that some sort of respinwould have been good just to get
>  past the installation showstoppers that some have experienced.  Whether
>  that be a whole installation, or just an installer startup respin.
>   
I'm not sure I have made the announcement in all the correct locations:

http://fedoraunity.org/news-archives/fedora-8-re-spin-released

http://kanarip.blogspot.com/2007/12/fedora-8-re-spin-released.html 
(which ends up on mugshot.org and digg and planet.fedoraproject.org)

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2007-December/msg00...

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2007-December/msg000...

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  Ric Moore wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 19:28 +0000, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:
> >
> >
> > +1 Ya know, it's WORTH a coupla bucks just to not torture myself and buy
> > the DVD. One stinkin' bleep or bloop in the process and the DVD is an
> > expensive coaster. Plus, my overall mental health takes a serious
> > double-gainer-back-flip into a bout of depression and carpet chewing.
> >
> > What I truly miss from the OLD DAYS was when package manager just asked
> > that I insert the CD and it would install packages, long after the
> > install took place. The option was to use ftp to grab anything else
> > needed and everyone worked as smooth as a monkey's butt. Heck, I'd
> > subscribe to update DVD's, if the service wasn't too pricey. 
> >
> > Then I could go back to using the internet as a place to get information
> > from. Sure, get security alerts off the net quickly, but all those
> > megabytes of updates tying up bandwidth, for a lot of us on modems and
> > creeping DSL is a pure headache.  
> >
>   
I'm not sure where you got this information but you're wrong in several 
places.

>  
>  These re-spin isos are only really needed for fresh installs. The only
>  difference between the original Fedora 8 release DVD(s) and the
>  FedoraUnity re-spin DVD(s) is the updated packages as of Dec 18, 2007.
>   
These Re-Spin ISOs work perfectly well on upgrades too. In fact, it 
incorporates fixes that might enable some users to upgrade where they 
first encountered bugs during the procedure.

>  For example. If there have been, for your installation, 50 updates
>  between Official release and 150 updates total you just spent your
>  bandwidth downloading 100 packages that you don't have installed or use.
>  Kinda' a Doh!! Homer?  ;-)
>   
Another example. You want to do a minimal install on that box that 
doesn't have Internet. You just spend some time downloading the DVD and 
with ~600 packages installed it has ~70 MB of updates!

>  This would be handy to carry from machine to machine and save the
>  downloading of some of the updates for each machine. I say some because
>  I actually did a plain basic install of the FU 8 re-spin, nothing added,
>  not custom packges a plain default install and had 27 new updates after
>  that were not on the re-spin.  :-)
>  
>  The 'everything' isos are, IMO, a waste of time for Joe User. Again
>  perhaps handy for the admin with many machines. Joe User has yum and the
>  fedora.repo points to the 'everything' folder on the server site. So
>  instead of using bandwidth to download over 9 gigs of packages that most
>  would never use I think that downloading a package or two, or three,
>  seems more along the path most should follow. 
1) The Everything ISOs are fun, especially doing a full installation 
using the CD media.

2) The Everything ISOs are used (a lot) by those that want to carry 
Fedora with them, and install it on machines that have slow internet 
connections or none at all.

  And BTW the 'everything'
>  isos *don't* contain the updates. They contain the everything
> packages
>  as of Nov 15, 2007 when the made it. Fedora 8 was released on Nov 8, 2007.
>   
The Everything spin doesn't contain a SINGLE update, actually. It 
contains all packages released as of Nov 8, 2007.

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Martin Marques wrote:
>  
> > Ed Greshko escribió:
>  
> >> Not 100% sure what you are asking...but are you seeking
> >> http://atterer.net/jigdo/ for guidance?
> >>
> > Nah, better use:
> >
> > http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
>  
>  heh.  i've been there as well.  i'm amused that, when that page tells
>  you that you need a real jigdo file, it links you to
>  http://spins.fedoraunity.org/, and when you go *there* and read down
>  to "How to Use Jigdo?", it links you back to (you guessed it) the page
>  you just came from.
>  
>  are you starting to see what i'm talking about here?
>   
Come on... There's two (!) pages. One with jigdo files and one on how to 
use Jigdo. Both link to one another. You either want the jigdo file and 
read about how to use it, or you're reading up on how to use it and want 
an example jigdo file. No-one is going to look at a sample jigdo file 
and then without getting that jigdo file all of a sudden chooses to read 
some more on using Jigdo.

Are you saying that once you start reading the second page you forgot 
you came from the first originally?

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>    for the first time, i'd like to download the fedora 8 x86_64
> re-spin
>  and, to be frank, there's not a single web page i've found that tells
>  me how to use jigdo to do it.
>  
>    i've perused the tutorials and HOWTOs at fedoraunity.org and
>  followed links, and i'm now fairly conversant on the rationale behind
>  re-spins and why jigdo was developed and a whole lot of other stuff
>  but i've yet to find a single page that says, "oh, you want a re-spin?
>  follow these steps."
>  
>    seriously, this is what i think has been a fundamental failing of a
>  lot of online fedora documentation -- the notion of a simple "recipe":
>  do these things, and you will get what you want.  instead, there's
>  typically a great deal of philosophical substantiation, while the poor
>  reader is just sitting there, thinking, "well, yeah, but i just want
>  to *do* something, so how do i *do* it?"  (it's sort of like, when i
>  ask someone for the time, i want them to tell me the time, i don't
>  need to be told how to build a watch.)
>  
>    so, really, when i decided to grab a re-spin, i figured to invest a
>  minute or two googling, find the command, and run it.  i'm still
>  looking.  why is it typically this time-consuming?
>   
Reading this thread just now, here's my response to your mail:

http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/

I think is linked very clearly on http://spins.fedoraunity.org, the site 
where you should be getting the Re-Spin from. I'm curious what you think 
could be improved in this little document.

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

[Tim]

On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 06:26 -0700, Karl Larsen wrote:
>  it looks to me like /media/"Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD" should 
>  work. It is what you do when using basic tools.  
If I were quoting, I'd expect something more like:
"/media/Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD" 

Or, if treating it as a URL, like:
file:///media/Fedora%208%20x86_64%20DVD

-- 
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
 important to the thread.)

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.

[Karl Larsen]

Ric Moore wrote:
>  On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 11:44 -0500, David Boles wrote:
>    
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Karl Larsen wrote:
> >     
>
>    
> >> It, Linux, is not always easy. But I think that sometimes users actually
> >> make it harder for themselves.
> >>       
> >>    It is somewhat more difficult if the subject is unknown and steps to
> >> get it are unknown and you do not know what it does. This is typical of
> >> Fedora when you first see it.
> >>       
> > What, please give me an example subject, do you think is, or was,
> > difficult? Perhaps I can give you some 'instruction searching tips'.
> > That, along with some books, was how i learned what I know.
> >     
>
>  Dave, I liked the Stanton-Finlay site as it had step-by-step
>  instructions that even Mom could follow. That's the point, for "users"
>  to make things happen for themselves. 
>
>  It's not a point that Linux is going to hell for the newbies that want
>  to use it. The point is that a newbie can make something happen that is
>  useful, outside the sphere of tool making, by using the applications.
>  Changing a life is not a bad thing and Linux can empower a lot of people
>  to do the things that they do, like writing, artwork, music composition,
>  video editing and so forth. Not everyone is gifted with a coder brain.
>  But maybe one of those great-unwashed will create something of benefit
>  within their own sphere of interests that benefits others, as well as
>  ourselves, in return of our generosity. 
>
>  Installing java from the java site would not have happened for me if not
>  for some simplistic instructions that Stanton Finlay provided. I was
>  tired, confused and a bit angry at myself, Life, the Universe and
>  Everything at the time. Having my hand held was not a bad thing, as it
>  re-assured me that someone had enough -empathy- to dumb down and that a
>  person like that would be thoughtful, as well as thorough, enough to be
>  a good mentor. Someone I could trust that I have never met. 
>
>  While I know enough to hit the enter key when appropriate, maybe some
>  other poor bastard doesn't and needs that additional instruction. How
>  many people know that many conf scripts need that extra blank line in
>  them? The instruction to "hit return" again and then to save is
>  certainly appropriate for someone who doesn't. 
>
>  I can certainly ignore what I believe I already know, but I leave room
>  for those that need the additional prompting. So, I applaud things that
>  show some heart in them, the world needs a helluva lot more of that.
>  It's loving the unlovable.  ...and the greatest of these three; hope,
>  faith and charity, is charity. And, that's the way it is. <smiles> Ric
>
>     
    Well said! I do not do near as well but after looking at Finlay 
writing it is what I will strive to copy.

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Ric Moore]

On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 11:44 -0500, David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  Karl Larsen wrote: 
>  > It, Linux, is not always easy. But I think that sometimes users
> actually
>  > make it harder for themselves.
>  >>
>  
>  >    It is somewhat more difficult if the subject is unknown and steps to
>  > get it are unknown and you do not know what it does. This is typical of
>  > Fedora when you first see it.
>  
>  
>  What, please give me an example subject, do you think is, or was,
>  difficult? Perhaps I can give you some 'instruction searching tips'.
>  That, along with some books, was how i learned what I know. 
Dave, I liked the Stanton-Finlay site as it had step-by-step
instructions that even Mom could follow. That's the point, for "users"
to make things happen for themselves. 

It's not a point that Linux is going to hell for the newbies that want
to use it. The point is that a newbie can make something happen that is
useful, outside the sphere of tool making, by using the applications.
Changing a life is not a bad thing and Linux can empower a lot of people
to do the things that they do, like writing, artwork, music composition,
video editing and so forth. Not everyone is gifted with a coder brain.
But maybe one of those great-unwashed will create something of benefit
within their own sphere of interests that benefits others, as well as
ourselves, in return of our generosity. 

Installing java from the java site would not have happened for me if not
for some simplistic instructions that Stanton Finlay provided. I was
tired, confused and a bit angry at myself, Life, the Universe and
Everything at the time. Having my hand held was not a bad thing, as it
re-assured me that someone had enough -empathy- to dumb down and that a
person like that would be thoughtful, as well as thorough, enough to be
a good mentor. Someone I could trust that I have never met. 

While I know enough to hit the enter key when appropriate, maybe some
other poor bastard doesn't and needs that additional instruction. How
many people know that many conf scripts need that extra blank line in
them? The instruction to "hit return" again and then to save is
certainly appropriate for someone who doesn't. 

I can certainly ignore what I believe I already know, but I leave room
for those that need the additional prompting. So, I applaud things that
show some heart in them, the world needs a helluva lot more of that.
It's loving the unlovable.  ...and the greatest of these three; hope,
faith and charity, is charity. And, that's the way it is. <smiles> Ric

-- 
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net  <---down4now too
================================================

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karl Larsen wrote:

>     Fine David and I will never again help you. You have a bad case of
> I
>  am better than you. You should treat that. 
I can not really think of any time that you, or your misinformation, has
ever helped me. But I can think of several times that I have tried to
help you. Your responses have been mostly arguments or I was ignored. So
be it.

>  And you do sound like, if you don't do it my way your and
> asshole, and
>  so it will be no problem at all to not get your worthless man page. 

Now here you have me confused, but that is common when it comes to you.
I offered to try to help and you return that offer with insults? And
*you* are offended? Becasue I tried to help? I was going to try to help
you learn how to easily search for, and find, information on The Internet?

Oh, and as for my "worthless man page"? What "worthless man page"? I
don't have any "worthless man page"s at all. And if I had a "worthless
man page" why would I try to hide it from you? I was trying to help you
remember?

Many others write good, clear instructions and information. Much better
that I could do *if* I had the time. So why would I bother to duplicate it?

Bye Karl. Have a nice night.
- --


  David

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Craig White]

On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 19:06 -0700, Karl Larsen wrote:
>    
>      Fine David and I will never again help you. You have a bad case of I 
>  am better than you. You should treat that.
>  
>  Karl
>  
>  And you do sound like, if you don't do it my way your and asshole, and 
>  so it will be no problem at all to not get your worthless man page.
>  
>  Karl 
----
charming

http://books.google.com/books?id=m23LR2GL8OMC

just sayin'

Craig

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karl Larsen wrote:
>  David Boles wrote:
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>   
> >>> David Boles wrote:
> >>>     
>  
>   
> >>> console.perms.5 - linux man page
> >>> http://www.maconlinux.net/linux-man-pages/en/console.perms.5.html
> >>>
> >>> 26.4. Making Files Accessible From the Console
> >>> http://tinyurl.com/25t8f2
> >>>
> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-5-manual/Deployment_Gu...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It took longer to write and cut & paste this than it did to find it.
> >>>
> >>>     
>  
>   
> >>>    As I have already said the man page is useless. The other referances
> >>> are for another linux. You have explained nothing!
> >>>     
>  
>  
>  Linux is Linux Karl. This is system stuff that you asked about here and
>  has little to do with Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE, Mandriva, or others.
>  Other than they all use this. This same stuff, if you will, 'fits' *all*
>  Linux distributions.
>  
>  In the information links I posted is/are the answers to your questions.
>  If you really want someone to drop by your house and do it for you that
>  takes a paid for Linux. Like RHEL or SUSE.
>  
>  But perhaps, if you really care for the help, you should start a new
>  thread because this one no longer fits the Subject: line.
> > 
>     Nope I wanted you to write something that explains how you get a
>  /dev/xxx to change owner IF you do the right thing. I know how to do
>  this. Do you? I have learned but it took a long time! 

You wanted me to write how "you get a /dev/xxx to change owner"? I have
no idea how to do that. Nor do I care to learn how to do that. Nor do I
understand *why* I would do that. Nor have I ever needed to do that.

Everything I have and use is standard hardware and software and my
'stuff' works.

You asked about console.perms and that was what the information links I
posted provided. Which I did for you and that did nothing for me. don't
you think that you would have learned more by reading this than having
me give you a 'step-by-step' set of directions? Ya' know? Do this. then
do this? What do you learn from that? Nothing.

Next time you have a problem or a question? Look it up yourself. I'm
sorry that I tried to be helpful. I *promise* that I will never try to
help you again.

Have a good evening.
- --


  David
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> baAAn1m0577GMqQ3+pos0AHlN/ZEk8Ur
> =ZnUD
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Karl Larsen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>    
> > David Boles wrote:
> >     
>
>    
> > console.perms.5 - linux man page
> > http://www.maconlinux.net/linux-man-pages/en/console.perms.5.html
> >
> > 26.4. Making Files Accessible From the Console
> > http://tinyurl.com/25t8f2
> >
> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-5-manual/Deployment_Gu...
> >
> >
> > It took longer to write and cut & paste this than it did to find it.
> >
> >     
>
>    
> >    As I have already said the man page is useless. The other referances
> > are for another linux. You have explained nothing!
> >     
>
>
>  Linux is Linux Karl. This is system stuff that you asked about here and
>  has little to do with Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE, Mandriva, or others.
>  Other than they all use this. This same stuff, if you will, 'fits' *all*
>  Linux distributions.
>
>  In the information links I posted is/are the answers to your questions.
>  If you really want someone to drop by your house and do it for you that
>  takes a paid for Linux. Like RHEL or SUSE.
>
>  But perhaps, if you really care for the help, you should start a new
>  thread because this one no longer fits the Subject: line.
>  - --
>
>
>    David
>
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
> >
> >  iEYEARECAAYFAkd4JCIACgkQAO0wNI1X4QFbNwCgwUkwZHXM1Pqm1IsiII6lmHFV
> >  b5UAn1jPOtW2I1ALAhCn3EELQ7Ia2CDY
> >  =r65r
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>     
    Nope I wanted you to write something that explains how you get a 
/dev/xxx to change owner IF you do the right thing. I know how to do 
this. Do you? I have learned but it took a long time!

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karl Larsen wrote:
>  David Boles wrote: 
>  
>  console.perms.5 - linux man page
>  http://www.maconlinux.net/linux-man-pages/en/console.perms.5.html
>  
>  26.4. Making Files Accessible From the Console
>  http://tinyurl.com/25t8f2
>
> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-5-manual/Deployment_Gu...
>  
>  
>  It took longer to write and cut & paste this than it did to find it.
>   
>     As I have already said the man page is useless. The other
> referances
>  are for another linux. You have explained nothing! 

Linux is Linux Karl. This is system stuff that you asked about here and
has little to do with Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE, Mandriva, or others.
Other than they all use this. This same stuff, if you will, 'fits' *all*
Linux distributions.

In the information links I posted is/are the answers to your questions.
If you really want someone to drop by your house and do it for you that
takes a paid for Linux. Like RHEL or SUSE.

But perhaps, if you really care for the help, you should start a new
thread because this one no longer fits the Subject: line.
- --


  David

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
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> =r65r
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tim wrote:
>  On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 10:40 -0500, David Boles wrote:
>
>  Having watched the FC8 buzz on this list over the last few weeks, I'd
>  have thought that some sort of respinwould have been good just to get
>  past the installation showstoppers that some have experienced.  Whether
>  that be a whole installation, or just an installer startup respin.
>  
*That* I can not say. I did not have problems with the official release
nor did I have problems with the re-spin on a different partition on the
same machine.

This might make a good *new* thread question. maybe you should start one?

- --


  David

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
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> =2ABD
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Tim]

On Sun, 2007-12-30 at 10:40 -0500, David Boles wrote:
>  These re-spin isos are only really needed for fresh installs. The
> only
>  difference between the original Fedora 8 release DVD(s) and the
>  FedoraUnity re-spin DVD(s) is the updated packages as of Dec 18, 2007. 
Having watched the FC8 buzz on this list over the last few weeks, I'd
have thought that some sort of respinwould have been good just to get
past the installation showstoppers that some have experienced.  Whether
that be a whole installation, or just an installer startup respin.

-- 
[tim@bigblack ~]$ uname -ipr
2.6.23.1-10.fc7 i686 i386

Using FC 4, 5, 6 & 7, plus CentOS 5.  Today, it's FC7.

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.

[Karl Larsen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>    
> > David Boles wrote:
> >
> > What, please give me an example subject, do you think is, or was,
> > difficult? Perhaps I can give you some 'instruction searching tips'.
> > That, along with some books, was how i learned what I know.
> >
> > Be glad to try to help.
> >
> >     
>
>    
> >    OK how about console.perm?
> >     
>
>  console.perms.5 - linux man page
>  http://www.maconlinux.net/linux-man-pages/en/console.perms.5.html
>
>  26.4. Making Files Accessible From the Console
>  http://tinyurl.com/25t8f2
>
> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-5-manual/Deployment_Gu...
>
>  It took longer to write and cut & paste this than it did to find it.
>
>  - --
>
>
>    David
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
> >
> >  iEYEARECAAYFAkd38ngACgkQAO0wNI1X4QEh5QCg+mODWPckvohMcxeDOxwWjtie
> >  v1EAn3eqJkMwxdS3MmcyMpsiViLDBAHf
> >  =arcE
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>     
    As I have already said the man page is useless. The other referances 
are for another linux. You have explained nothing!

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karl Larsen wrote:
>  David Boles wrote:
>  
>  What, please give me an example subject, do you think is, or was,
>  difficult? Perhaps I can give you some 'instruction searching tips'.
>  That, along with some books, was how i learned what I know.
>  
>  Be glad to try to help.
>   
>     OK how about console.perm? 
console.perms.5 - linux man page
http://www.maconlinux.net/linux-man-pages/en/console.perms.5.html

26.4. Making Files Accessible From the Console
http://tinyurl.com/25t8f2
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-5-manual/Deployment_Gu...

It took longer to write and cut & paste this than it did to find it.

- --


  David
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkd38ngACgkQAO0wNI1X4QEh5QCg+mODWPckvohMcxeDOxwWjtie
> v1EAn3eqJkMwxdS3MmcyMpsiViLDBAHf
> =arcE
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Karl Larsen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>    
> > David Boles wrote:
> > Karl Larsen wrote:
> >  
> >     
> >>>>> David Boles wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's all part of the dumbing down that Linux is going through.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Infinite monkey theorem.  ;-)
> >>>>>       
> >>>>>             
> >  
> >     
> >>>>    I disagree. If you drive the documentation train Fedora will go down
> >>>> in flames. What you use as an example of poor instruction is the best I
> >>>> have seen in a long time. He tells you what it is. He tells you how to
> >>>> get it. He tells you where it is on your computer. Then he goes to the
> >>>> next subject on the same page which is Java.
> >>>>     
> >>>>           
> >  
> >     
> >>>>    You power users are a small group. You just want the basics man!
> >>>> There are a lot more people who are new users who will like the way
> >>>> Finley did it. He went to Umbuto because you guys drove him there. But
> >>>> if you have your way there will be no more new users.
> >>>>     
> >>>>           
> > I would not consider myself to be a power user but thanks for the
> > completment. I learned Linux the hard way. Myself with no schooling. I
> > bought and read books about it *before* i ever installed it the first
> > time. In other words? I knew a little about it before I started.
> >
> > And yes the Docs can be a little sparse but it is assumed that you
> > already know something about what you are doing. Or you *should* know
> > something.
> >
> > Would you prefer instructions like this?
> >
> > How to fuel your car.
> >
> > 1) Drive to the fueling station
> > 2) Pull up to the fuel pump.
> > 3) Place the transmission in Park
> > 4) Turn off the engine.
> > 5) Remove the key
> > 6) Unbuckle your seatbelt
> > 7) ...
> >
> > Shall I go on? Or.
> >
> > 1) Drive to the fueling station
> > 2) Fuel your car
> > 3) Pay for the fuel
> > 4) Leave
> >
> > You already know the other parts.  ;-)
> >
> > It, Linux, is not always easy. But I think that sometimes users actually
> > make it harder for themselves.
> >     
>
>    
> >    It is somewhat more difficult if the subject is unknown and steps to
> > get it are unknown and you do not know what it does. This is typical of
> > Fedora when you first see it.
> >     
>
>
>  What, please give me an example subject, do you think is, or was,
>  difficult? Perhaps I can give you some 'instruction searching tips'.
>  That, along with some books, was how i learned what I know.
>
>  Be glad to try to help.
>
>  - --
>
>
>    David
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
> >
> >  iEYEARECAAYFAkd3yt4ACgkQAO0wNI1X4QGf2ACdEuioGnPF/yTntsF0OWOBOaCW
> >  FeUAoLSY0VXvbwneWhClYRPpZ7X+dWv/
> >  =5BU+
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>     
    OK how about console.perm?


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Karl Larsen]

Jacques B. wrote:
>  <snip>
>    
> >> Would you prefer instructions like this?
> >>
> >> How to fuel your car.
> >>
> >> 1) Drive to the fueling station
> >> 2) Pull up to the fuel pump.
> >> 3) Place the transmission in Park
> >> 4) Turn off the engine.
> >> 5) Remove the key
> >> 6) Unbuckle your seatbelt
> >> 7) ...
> >>
> >> Shall I go on? Or.
> >>
> >> 1) Drive to the fueling station
> >> 2) Fuel your car
> >> 3) Pay for the fuel
> >> 4) Leave
> >>
> >> You already know the other parts.  ;-)
> >>
> >> It, Linux, is not always easy. But I think that sometimes users actually
> >> make it harder for themselves.
> >> - --
> >>
> >>
> >>   David
> >>
> >>
> > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
> > >>
> > >> iEYEARECAAYFAkd3u/cACgkQAO0wNI1X4QFFVwCfd6QS48qopYilUfX5uYPtUK2K
> > >> n5gAoLiVAGszG6fn823u1iUCFIMnthr+
> > >> =welF
> > >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> >>
> >>
> >>       
> >     It is somewhat more difficult if the subject is unknown and steps to
> > get it are unknown and you do not know what it does. This is typical of
> > Fedora when you first see it.
> >
> > Karl
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >         Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
> >     
>
>  How about prefixing the tutorial with a note stating that the tutorial
>  assumes that the end user already knows basic command line usage (i.e.
>  pressing ENTER when told to enter a command, that # means root and $
>  means regular user, etc) or whatever other pre-required knowledge the
>  author assumes/requires in order to properly use the tutorial?
>
>  I've written a few guides and in them included a Foreword in which it
>  states the target audience of the guide (hence the pre-required
>  knowledge that is required to properly benefit from the guide).
>
>  Jacques B.
>
>     
    I hold a PHD in Electrical Engineering. My PHD thesis was written so 
my wife could at least read it (she typed it long before computers). I 
didn't say you have to have a PHD in EE to read it. But you did and they 
who read it all were :-)

    Alas the world has past me by. People now want a basic instruction 
they can read and understand. Come to think of it that is how College 
level books are written. Strange?

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jacques B. wrote:
>  <snip>
> >> Would you prefer instructions like this?
> >>
> >> How to fuel your car.
> >>
> >> 1) Drive to the fueling station
> >> 2) Pull up to the fuel pump.
> >> 3) Place the transmission in Park
> >> 4) Turn off the engine.
> >> 5) Remove the key
> >> 6) Unbuckle your seatbelt
> >> 7) ...
> >>
> >> Shall I go on? Or.
> >>
> >> 1) Drive to the fueling station
> >> 2) Fuel your car
> >> 3) Pay for the fuel
> >> 4) Leave
> >>
> >> You already know the other parts.  ;-)
> >>
> >> It, Linux, is not always easy. But I think that sometimes users actually
> >> make it harder for themselves.
> >> - --
> >>
> >>
> >>   David
> >>
> >>
> > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> > >> =welF
> > >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> >>
> >>
> >     It is somewhat more difficult if the subject is unknown and steps to
> > get it are unknown and you do not know what it does. This is typical of
> > Fedora when you first see it.
> >
> > Karl
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >         Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
>  
>  How about prefixing the tutorial with a note stating that the tutorial
>  assumes that the end user already knows basic command line usage (i.e.
>  pressing ENTER when told to enter a command, that # means root and $
>  means regular user, etc) or whatever other pre-required knowledge the
>  author assumes/requires in order to properly use the tutorial?
>  
>  I've written a few guides and in them included a Foreword in which it
>  states the target audience of the guide (hence the pre-required
>  knowledge that is required to properly benefit from the guide). 

As long as there are two, or perhaps three versions of the instructions.

Newbie instructions for, well Newbies. Expert instructions for those
that consider themselves experts or knowledgeable. And then instructions
for those that really are experts.  ;-)

Seriously. I don't consider myself any kind of an expert. Just
experienced the hard way.I have not written anything since GWBasic and
the scripting language that was in OS/2 Warp. REX.

But I know that I would be somewhat insulted by instructions like the
first set that I gave as an example to Karl. The second set would be ok.
'Go fuel the car' might not be acceptable for me.

- --


  David

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[Jacques B.]

<snip>
>  > Would you prefer instructions like this?
>  >
>  > How to fuel your car.
>  >
>  > 1) Drive to the fueling station
>  > 2) Pull up to the fuel pump.
>  > 3) Place the transmission in Park
>  > 4) Turn off the engine.
>  > 5) Remove the key
>  > 6) Unbuckle your seatbelt
>  > 7) ...
>  >
>  > Shall I go on? Or.
>  >
>  > 1) Drive to the fueling station
>  > 2) Fuel your car
>  > 3) Pay for the fuel
>  > 4) Leave
>  >
>  > You already know the other parts.  ;-)
>  >
>  > It, Linux, is not always easy. But I think that sometimes users actually
>  > make it harder for themselves.
>  > - --
>  >
>  >
>  >   David
>  >
>  >
> >  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  > Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
> >  >
> >  > iEYEARECAAYFAkd3u/cACgkQAO0wNI1X4QFFVwCfd6QS48qopYilUfX5uYPtUK2K
> >  > n5gAoLiVAGszG6fn823u1iUCFIMnthr+
> >  > =welF
> >  > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>  >
>  >
>      It is somewhat more difficult if the subject is unknown and steps to
>  get it are unknown and you do not know what it does. This is typical of
>  Fedora when you first see it.
>
>  Karl
>
>
>  --
>
>          Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI 
How about prefixing the tutorial with a note stating that the tutorial
assumes that the end user already knows basic command line usage (i.e.
pressing ENTER when told to enter a command, that # means root and $
means regular user, etc) or whatever other pre-required knowledge the
author assumes/requires in order to properly use the tutorial?

I've written a few guides and in them included a Foreword in which it
states the target audience of the guide (hence the pre-required
knowledge that is required to properly benefit from the guide).

Jacques B.

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ric Moore wrote:
>  On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 19:28 +0000, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:
>  
>  
>  +1 Ya know, it's WORTH a coupla bucks just to not torture myself and buy
>  the DVD. One stinkin' bleep or bloop in the process and the DVD is an
>  expensive coaster. Plus, my overall mental health takes a serious
>  double-gainer-back-flip into a bout of depression and carpet chewing.
>  
>  What I truly miss from the OLD DAYS was when package manager just asked
>  that I insert the CD and it would install packages, long after the
>  install took place. The option was to use ftp to grab anything else
>  needed and everyone worked as smooth as a monkey's butt. Heck, I'd
>  subscribe to update DVD's, if the service wasn't too pricey. 
>  
>  Then I could go back to using the internet as a place to get information
>  from. Sure, get security alerts off the net quickly, but all those
>  megabytes of updates tying up bandwidth, for a lot of us on modems and
>  creeping DSL is a pure headache.  
>   

These re-spin isos are only really needed for fresh installs. The only
difference between the original Fedora 8 release DVD(s) and the
FedoraUnity re-spin DVD(s) is the updated packages as of Dec 18, 2007.

For example. If there have been, for your installation, 50 updates
between Official release and 150 updates total you just spent your
bandwidth downloading 100 packages that you don't have installed or use.
Kinda' a Doh!! Homer?  ;-)

This would be handy to carry from machine to machine and save the
downloading of some of the updates for each machine. I say some because
I actually did a plain basic install of the FU 8 re-spin, nothing added,
not custom packges a plain default install and had 27 new updates after
that were not on the re-spin.  :-)

The 'everything' isos are, IMO, a waste of time for Joe User. Again
perhaps handy for the admin with many machines. Joe User has yum and the
fedora.repo points to the 'everything' folder on the server site. So
instead of using bandwidth to download over 9 gigs of packages that most
would never use I think that downloading a package or two, or three,
seems more along the path most should follow. And BTW the 'everything'
isos *don't* contain the updates. They contain the everything packages
as of Nov 15, 2007 when the made it. Fedora 8 was released on Nov 8, 2007.

As for buying pre-made CD'd and DVD's? Many place sell them at a
reasonable price. One place that I have used and had good service from
is Cheapbytes. $5.99 for the Fedora 8 DVD + postage/handling or FedEx.
Mail is $4.99. So for for $11.00 +- you get your DVD, with a nice
professional looking label not pen written or stick on, and don't tie up
your phone line all week.  ;-)
- --


  David

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[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karl Larsen wrote:
> > David Boles wrote:
> >
> >
> > It's all part of the dumbing down that Linux is going through.
> > 
> > The Infinite monkey theorem.  ;-) 
>     I disagree. If you drive the documentation train Fedora will go
> down
>  in flames. What you use as an example of poor instruction is the best I
>  have seen in a long time. He tells you what it is. He tells you how to
>  get it. He tells you where it is on your computer. Then he goes to the
>  next subject on the same page which is Java. 
>     You power users are a small group. You just want the basics man!
>  There are a lot more people who are new users who will like the way
>  Finley did it. He went to Umbuto because you guys drove him there. But
>  if you have your way there will be no more new users. 

I would not consider myself to be a power user but thanks for the
completment. I learned Linux the hard way. Myself with no schooling. I
bought and read books about it *before* i ever installed it the first
time. In other words? I knew a little about it before I started.

And yes the Docs can be a little sparse but it is assumed that you
already know something about what you are doing. Or you *should* know
something.

Would you prefer instructions like this?

How to fuel your car.

1) Drive to the fueling station
2) Pull up to the fuel pump.
3) Place the transmission in Park
4) Turn off the engine.
5) Remove the key
6) Unbuckle your seatbelt
7) ...

Shall I go on? Or.

1) Drive to the fueling station
2) Fuel your car
3) Pay for the fuel
4) Leave

You already know the other parts.  ;-)

It, Linux, is not always easy. But I think that sometimes users actually
make it harder for themselves.
- --


  David


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[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Sat, 29 Dec 2007, Ric Moore wrote:
>  
> > On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 11:52 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  
> >> all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time to
> >> figure out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm
> >> guessing that, in most cases, readers aren't interested in a
> >> long-winded overview of things -- they just want to know what
> >> commands to run to get something done, which is all i wanted in
> >> the first place.
> >>
> >> in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook" with
> >> tight, concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if
> >> they choose to read up later on the underlying operations, then
> >> that's their choice.
> > A wonderful example of that is http://www.stanton-finley.net/ which
> > is clear, concise and the content works every time and, for the most
> > part, still does. Too bad he went to the Ubuntu scheme of things
> > after FC5. Ric
>  
>    i will (sort of) agree with you.  yes, finley's website had/has
>  piles of cool advice on how to do things.  my only beef with it is
>  that it is simply too verbose.  here's an example -- how to install
>  yumex:
>  
>  http://www.stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_5_installation_notes.html#Yumex
>  
>    sure, that explanation is correct but, man, it's wordy.  what's
>  wrong with just saying:  "as root, run
>  
>    # yum -y install yumex"
>  
>   seriously, how many times do you need to be told to open a terminal
>  and type "su"?  yes, i realize that's being annoyingly picky, but why
>  take 15 lines to say what can be said just as accurately in two? 

It's all part of the dumbing down that Linux is going through.

The Infinite monkey theorem.  ;-)
- --


  David
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[Robert P. J. Day]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007, Ric Moore wrote:

>  On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 11:52 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote: 
>  > all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time
> to
>  > figure out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm
>  > guessing that, in most cases, readers aren't interested in a
>  > long-winded overview of things -- they just want to know what
>  > commands to run to get something done, which is all i wanted in
>  > the first place.
>  >
>  > in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook" with
>  > tight, concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if
>  > they choose to read up later on the underlying operations, then
>  > that's their choice.
>
>  A wonderful example of that is http://www.stanton-finley.net/ which
>  is clear, concise and the content works every time and, for the most
>  part, still does. Too bad he went to the Ubuntu scheme of things
>  after FC5. Ric 
  i will (sort of) agree with you.  yes, finley's website had/has
piles of cool advice on how to do things.  my only beef with it is
that it is simply too verbose.  here's an example -- how to install
yumex:

http://www.stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_5_installation_notes.html#Yumex

  sure, that explanation is correct but, man, it's wordy.  what's
wrong with just saying:  "as root, run

  # yum -y install yumex"

 seriously, how many times do you need to be told to open a terminal
and type "su"?  yes, i realize that's being annoyingly picky, but why
take 15 lines to say what can be said just as accurately in two?

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

Home page:                                         http://crashcourse.ca
Fedora Cookbook:    http://crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
========================================================================

[Ric Moore]

On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 11:52 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  
>  > Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  >
>  > >   by the way, the above is still not annoyance-free:
>  >
>  > OK....
>  >
>  > So, I gather from all of this that the existing documentation,
>  > links, and whatever doesn't measure up to what you need or expect.
>  > Would that be a fair summary?
>  >
>  > Is the question then, how can documentation be improved for the
>  > average user?
>  
>  all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time to figure
>  out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm guessing that,
>  in most cases, readers aren't interested in a long-winded overview of
>  things -- they just want to know what commands to run to get
>  something done, which is all i wanted in the first place.
>  
>  in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook" with tight,
>  concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if they choose
>  to read up later on the underlying operations, then that's their
>  choice. 
A wonderful example of that is http://www.stanton-finley.net/ which is
clear, concise and the content works every time and, for the most part,
still does. Too bad he went to the Ubuntu scheme of things after FC5.
Ric
 
-- 
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net  <---down4now too
================================================

CVS is dead

[Michael Schwendt]

On 27/12/2007, Martin Marques <martin(a)marquesminen.com.ar&gt; wrote:
>  > Whether migration to Git is on its way, I can't tell. The Fedora Wiki
>  > feels like a labyrinth and is slow to search. Switching Fedora Package
>
>  Ahhh, they are looking to migrate the wiki as well. :-)
>
>  MoinMoin is hell. 
It's not just the Wiki software that makes the Fedora Wiki
increasingly unpleasant to use. It's also the page layout and
structure. Somebody has had the brilliant idea to use tables with
narrow columns on the main pages, such as "Fedora Packaging". Not! --
Finding relevant pages is too difficult.

>  > CVS to another SCM system is a controversy for several years.
> Whenever
>
>  I think you are confused. 
Nope. I've followed many of the related discussions, from early
evaluation of CVS for the Fedora Extras package collection to the
tiresome threads on fedora-maintainers list. The people who have tried
to replace cvs in favour of their own favourite scm/vcs, have yet to
agree.

>  The migration is for internal, but public, use. 
Eh? I don't understand that sentence. There's nothing "internal" about
replacing the scm system that will affect hundreds of contributors.

>  Specifically to maintain
>  revision of packages (spec files) of Fedora 
That's what current /cvs/pkgs is all about. But there has been
/cvs/fedora for other projects, too.

>  and maybe also of Redhat in general. 
"Maybe" is a guess. Several decisions on infrastructure changes come
from inside of Red Hat and are pushed through the Fedora Project Board
without resistance.

>  You will always find packages of CVS, Subversion, git, Mercurial,
>  Monotone, Bazaar, etc. in Fedora so there shouldn't be any controversy. 
Uhm, the mailing-list archives (e.g. fedora-maintainers) disagree.

>  I hope I was clear. 
No.

[Ed Greshko]

Karl Larsen wrote:
>  Dean S. Messing wrote:
> > Karl wrote:
> > : Tim wrote:
> > : > Tim:
> > : >   : >>> Try a different browser, just in case Firefox (or :    
> > Now I have a file that appears to be a respin of F8. It seemed to :
> > work fine but the system doesn't want to stop! Instead of stopping it
> > : keeps asking for the location of another DVD to read :-)
> > : :     But Conrol C stopped it and the file size is what I expected
> > for a : fully updated F8 3443793697 2007-12-27 15:00 but it is a
> > .iso.tmp file. : I can fix that.
> >
> > I would be in doubt if I were you.  I didn't use a mounted reference
> > DVD for my jigdo downloads but when they finished, each did a
> > final checksum on the .iso and renamed it w/o the .tmp suffix.
> >
> > I have no idea if restarting will just begin where it left off or
> > start the process all over again.
> >
> > Also note that the size of the .iso.tmp is misleading.  Jigdo
> > allocates the entire space for the .iso at the beginning and populates
> > it with the directory/file structure, but those files are full of
> > nulls until the appropriate package is downloaded.
> >
> > :     I used the jigdo file that rday has on his web page and choose
> > : number 6 for a i386 DVD which seems to be correct.
> >
> > In short I would not trust your .iso.tmp unless you've checksummed it
> > manually.  For fun, you can also mount the .iso.tmp file via loopback
> > and look inside.  Try doing `rpm -pqi' on a few of the .rpm files to
> > see what you get.  When I did that at the beginning of my run, the
> > command returned an empty line. When I looked inside (with emacs)
> > it was filled with ^@  (nulls).
> >
> > :     I have been collecting bits of writing and copies of terminal
> > data : to be part of a new potential Instruction for using Jigdo. It
> > will be : ready tomorrow I hope.
> >
> > We'll be holding our breath until then. œ-)
> >
> >
> > Dean
> >
> >   
>     I have forgot the darn loopback thing. Looking in man mount there
>  is nothing loopback listed. Anyone recall?
>  
Please read the man page again....  Look for "loop" and you will find an
example....


-- 
With a rubber duck, one's never alone. -- "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy"

[Dean S. Messing]

Karl wrote:
: Tim wrote:
: > Tim:
: >   
: >>> Try a different browser, just in case Firefox (or 
:     Now I have a file that appears to be a respin of F8. It seemed to 
: work fine but the system doesn't want to stop! Instead of stopping it 
: keeps asking for the location of another DVD to read :-)
: 
:     But Conrol C stopped it and the file size is what I expected for a 
: fully updated F8 3443793697 2007-12-27 15:00 but it is a .iso.tmp file. 
: I can fix that.

I would be in doubt if I were you.  I didn't use a mounted reference
DVD for my jigdo downloads but when they finished, each did a
final checksum on the .iso and renamed it w/o the .tmp suffix.

I have no idea if restarting will just begin where it left off or
start the process all over again.

Also note that the size of the .iso.tmp is misleading.  Jigdo
allocates the entire space for the .iso at the beginning and populates
it with the directory/file structure, but those files are full of
nulls until the appropriate package is downloaded.

:     I used the jigdo file that rday has on his web page and choose 
: number 6 for a i386 DVD which seems to be correct.

In short I would not trust your .iso.tmp unless you've checksummed it
manually.  For fun, you can also mount the .iso.tmp file via loopback
and look inside.  Try doing `rpm -pqi' on a few of the .rpm files to
see what you get.  When I did that at the beginning of my run, the
command returned an empty line. When I looked inside (with emacs)
it was filled with ^@  (nulls).

:     I have been collecting bits of writing and copies of terminal data 
: to be part of a new potential Instruction for using Jigdo. It will be 
: ready tomorrow I hope.

We'll be holding our breath until then. ½-)


Dean

CVS is dead

[Les Mikesell]

Martin Marques wrote:

> > CVS has problems caused by all of the history being kept in a
> single 
> > file (it doesn't understand directory operations like renames), but the 
>  
>  Oh, and the fact that commits are not atomic so that if two chagesets 
>  collide (well, CVS doesn't have notion of changeset, only of single file 
>  changes) very bad things can happen (one changeset locks a file that the 
>  other changeset has to update) and you get a corrupt copy that has to be 
>  fixed.
>  
>  Subversion, git and Mercurial (and others) addressed this issue adding 
>  atomicity to the chagesets (see that with these VCS files don't have 
>  version there are changeset versions).
>  
> > up side is that you can track development 'forwards' from any point. 
>  
>  Uhh???
>  
>  $ hg up -r SOME_OLD_REV 
Start from a tagged point in development. Branch several times for 
different changes. Can you find all subsequent work?

>  (same with svn or git-update).
>  
> > With svn, there's no way to start from an earlier tag and follow 
> > future tags/branches of that same file.  
>  
>  What? Les do you really know what you're talking about? 
I'd like to hear that I don't.  With CVS, if you have any of the 
development you have all of it.  With svn, tags are (by convention) dead 
end snapshots and there is no way to track forward development.  Assume 
you worked on something some time ago, ending by creating a certain tag. 
  Now several other people create branches for additional work.  How can 
you tell that, starting from the tag you last knew about?  You could 
start from any of the branches and work backwards but you can't see what 
branches were created or when going forwards.

> > This must be even worse in distributed VC's where the changes
> might 
> > not even exist in your copy of the repository.  Doesn't it bother you 
> > to know you might be repeating someone else's mistakes because you 
> > can't track all the other changes from a given point?
>  
>  What mistake if it's not in the repository? 
That's the point - you won't know.

>  The same thing would happen with CVS if you were coding without 
>  commiting to the main server. Nobody will be able to know what you are 
>  doing. Same if your coworkers don't update regularly. How can they know 
>  what you fixed? 
If you aren't committing to the central repository, you aren't using CVS.

>  In distributed VCS you use pull and push for this. 
How can you tell whether that was always done or not?

-- 
   Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

[Karl Larsen]

Tim wrote:
>  Tim:
>    
> >> Try a different browser, just in case Firefox (or  
    Now I have a file
that appears to be a respin of F8. It seemed to 
work fine but the system doesn't want to stop! Instead of stopping it 
keeps asking for the location of another DVD to read :-)

    But Conrol C stopped it and the file size is what I expected for a 
fully updated F8 3443793697 2007-12-27 15:00 but it is a .iso.tmp file. 
I can fix that.

    I used the jigdo file that rday has on his web page and choose 
number 6 for a i386 DVD which seems to be correct.

    I have been collecting bits of writing and copies of terminal data 
to be part of a new potential Instruction for using Jigdo. It will be 
ready tomorrow I hope.

Karl

-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Tim]

Tim:
> > Try a different browser, just in case Firefox (or whatever else)
> has got
> > it into its head that the site can't be reached, and it just isn't going
> > to try again.  Been there, done that, but don't have the tee shirt... 
Gene Heskett:
>  Now that's odd, seamonkey walked right in.  WTH?  
Often that's down to browsers playing DNS games.  The first time you try
to access a site it may not get a DNS answer.  It can cache that "no
answer" just as it can cache the IP address from an answer.  Sometimes
it'll cache that answer for a ridiculously long time.

There's two solutions:

Close down the browser, and restart.  This means all tabs and all
windows, losing track of everything that you were doing.  I haven't
found any other way of doing this, it's not like the cached web pages
which are deletable files on disc.

Use another browser.  It'll make a fresh DNS query, and hopefully get an
answer.

As to why you don't always get an answer when doing a DNS query?  Who
knows.  It could be down to the DNS server having stupid settings (such
as proxying servers on ISPs that don't check for fresh answers when they
should).  Or perhaps the DNS server with the answer is being deluged by
queries for spam, and the like.

One of my old ISPs forever seemed to have something seriously wrong with
their DNS server.  It certainly wasn't me.  Several different computers,
and several different OSs, all had the same issue:  *More* often than
not, news.optusnet.com.au wouldn't resolve.  I had to put an entry for
it in the hosts file.  Querying their own DNS server would usually fail,
and my own local DNS server couldn't answer for the same reason.


-- 
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
 important to the thread.)

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.

CVS is dead

[Martin Marques]

Les Mikesell escribió:
>  
>  CVS has problems caused by all of the history being kept in a single 
>  file (it doesn't understand directory operations like renames), but the  
Oh, and the fact that commits are not atomic so that if two chagesets 
collide (well, CVS doesn't have notion of changeset, only of single file 
changes) very bad things can happen (one changeset locks a file that the 
other changeset has to update) and you get a corrupt copy that has to be 
fixed.

Subversion, git and Mercurial (and others) addressed this issue adding 
atomicity to the chagesets (see that with these VCS files don't have 
version there are changeset versions).

>  up side is that you can track development 'forwards' from any
> point.  
Uhh???

$ hg up -r SOME_OLD_REV

(same with svn or git-update).

>  With svn, there's no way to start from an earlier tag and follow
> future 
>  tags/branches of that same file.   
What? Les do you really know what you're talking about?

>  This must be even worse in distributed 
>  VC's where the changes might not even exist in your copy of the 
>  repository.  Doesn't it bother you to know you might be repeating 
>  someone else's mistakes because you can't track all the other changes 
>  from a given point? 
What mistake if it's not in the repository?

The same thing would happen with CVS if you were coding without 
commiting to the main server. Nobody will be able to know what you are 
doing. Same if your coworkers don't update regularly. How can they know 
what you fixed?

In distributed VCS you use pull and push for this.

CVS is dead

[Les Mikesell]

Martin Marques wrote:
>  
>  Mercurial fixes all the CVS *issues* and also has the same command
>  structure:
>  
>  hg status
>  hg commit -m "some comment"
>  hg add
>  hg diff
>  etc.
>  
>  And you can start to enter the wonderful world of distributed VCS. :-D
>  
> > i didn't say that subversion was the best version control system of
> > all the possible choices -- only that, if one was already fairly
> > conversant with CVS, it would be a "reasonable" choice for a new
> > project.
>  
>  All the new VCS have tried to keep the same command structure, not only svn 
CVS has problems caused by all of the history being kept in a single 
file (it doesn't understand directory operations like renames), but the 
up side is that you can track development 'forwards' from any point. 
With svn, there's no way to start from an earlier tag and follow future 
tags/branches of that same file.  This must be even worse in distributed 
VC's where the changes might not even exist in your copy of the 
repository.  Doesn't it bother you to know you might be repeating 
someone else's mistakes because you can't track all the other changes 
from a given point?

-- 
   Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

CVS is dead

[Martin Marques]

Michael Schwendt escribió:
>  On 27/12/2007, Martin Marques <martin(a)marquesminen.com.ar&gt;
> wrote:
> >>
> > AFAIK, migration to git is on it's way.
>  
>  But Git is not Mercurial. ;) 
Any of the 2 are far better then CVS! :-D

>  Whether migration to Git is on its way, I can't tell. The Fedora
> Wiki
>  feels like a labyrinth and is slow to search. Switching Fedora Package 
Ahhh, they are looking to migrate the wiki as well. :-)

MoinMoin is hell.

>  CVS to another SCM system is a controversy for several years.
> Whenever 
I think you are confused.

The migration is for internal, but public, use. Specifically to maintain 
revision of packages (spec files) of Fedora and maybe also of Redhat in 
general.

You will always find packages of CVS, Subversion, git, Mercurial, 
Monotone, Bazaar, etc. in Fedora so there shouldn't be any controversy.

>  it happens, it will make a small target group happy and will be
>  considered a nuisance by many others (especially those who've tried to
>  advocate their favourite SCM system). I hope Fedora leadership will
>  not unleash something half-baked onto the volunteers. 
I hope I was clear.

CVS is dead

[Martin Marques]

Les escribió:
>  On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 22:38 -0300, Martin Marques wrote:
> >
> > $ yum install mercurial
> > $ hg help
> >
> > Be happy! :-D
> >
>  SourceForge still uses CVS, as do many other development places.  There 
SourceForge is migrating to Subversion.

>  are other revision control packages, but until you mentioned it, I
> had
>  never heard of Mercurial.  Of course I am an "Old Fart", so that may
>  mean something to put it in context. 
Les, at least you heard about about git, right?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 27 December 2007, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > And I'm back, and it didn't wait, its writing an .iso.tmp in the
> > directory I was cd'd to.  If its going to do that, should that not
> > also be noted in the wiki page that one should be cd'd to the target
> > location before starting jigdo-lite, or did I miss that little
> > detail?
>
> yup, you missed that detail:
>
> "cd to your preferred working directory (which has enough space for
> the final ISO image plus a download working directory)."
>  
Somebody wanna wet me a rag, I want to wash the egg off my face. :-)

Thanks.

> rday
> --
>
> ========================================================================
> Robert P. J. Day
> Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
> Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
> http://crashcourse.ca
> ======================================================================== 


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Those lovable Brits department:
	They also have trouble pronouncing `vitamin'.

CVS is dead

[Michael Schwendt]

On 27/12/2007, Martin Marques <martin(a)marquesminen.com.ar&gt; wrote:
>  Michael Schwendt escribió:
>  > On 27/12/2007, Martin Marques wrote:
>  >> Karl Larsen escribió:
>  >>>    Beginning now I planned to learn what CVS is and look for
>  >>> instructions on wiki care and feeding.
>  >> Please Karl. CVS is dead. Check Mercurial, which is great, has a book to
>  >> learn how to use it, is distributed and has an excelent help:
>  >
>  > Still, CVS is very relevant to Fedora, since several of its
>  > repositories use CVS. The source RPM contents are maintained in CVS,
>  > for example.
>  >
>
>  AFAIK, migration to git is on it's way. 
But Git is not Mercurial. ;)

Whether migration to Git is on its way, I can't tell. The Fedora Wiki
feels like a labyrinth and is slow to search. Switching Fedora Package
CVS to another SCM system is a controversy for several years. Whenever
it happens, it will make a small target group happy and will be
considered a nuisance by many others (especially those who've tried to
advocate their favourite SCM system). I hope Fedora leadership will
not unleash something half-baked onto the volunteers.

CVS is dead

[Timothy Selivanow]

On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 07:38 -0800, Les wrote:
>  On Wed, 2007-12-26 at 22:38 -0300, Martin Marques wrote:
>  > Karl Larsen escribió:
>  > > 
>  > >    Beginning now I planned to learn what CVS is and look for 
>  > > instructions on wiki care and feeding.
>  > 
>  > Please Karl. CVS is dead. Check Mercurial, which is great, has a book to 
>  > learn how to use it, is distributed and has an excelent help:
>  > 
>  > $ yum install mercurial
>  > $ hg help
>  > 
>  > Be happy! :-D
>  > 
>  SourceForge still uses CVS, as do many other development places.  There
>  are other revision control packages, but until you mentioned it, I had
>  never heard of Mercurial.  Of course I am an "Old Fart", so that may
>  mean something to put it in context.
>  
>  Regards,
>  Les H 
SF also uses Subversion:  https://sourceforge.net/docs/E09

I prefer SVN, only because when I started learning a VCS (both as a user
and admin) I chose SVN because it was new and a lot of people on the
intarwebs were talking about it.  I like some of the features it has
over CVS, but CVS is still quite adequate and fairly flexible.


 ______________________________________________________________________ 
/ Democracy is a form of government in which it is permitted to wonder \
| aloud what the country could do under first-class management.        |
\                 -- Senator Soaper                                    /
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
  \
   \   \
        \ /\
        ( )
      .( o ).

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 27 December 2007, Tim wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 07:29 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I just tried it again, still dead.  Ping has been sitting here for
> > about half an hour:
> > [root@coyote linux-2.6.24-rc6]# ping crashcourse.ca
> > PING crashcourse.ca (64.235.106.9) 56(84) bytes of data.
>
> The "site" works here, too, but it's not pingable.  Responding to pings
> is an entirely different networking issue, and isn't really usable as a
> diagnostic tool for whether a webserver is serving.
>
> Try a different browser, just in case Firefox (or whatever else) has got
> it into its head that the site can't be reached, and it just isn't going
> to try again.  Been there, done that, but don't have the tee shirt...
>  
I probably have one around here someplace...  I don't think I own one that 
doesn't have somebodies logo on it.

But now the f8 dvd isn't auto mounting since I converted FC6 to all libata 
access.  And it appears that haldaemon isn't generating the device in udev 
for it.

Got that fixed, now its pulling a new 'template' file, but hasn't asked me 
where to put it yet.  And I have to leave so I assume it will ask, then wait 
till I get back.

And I'm back, and it didn't wait, its writing an .iso.tmp in the directory I 
was cd'd to.  If its going to do that, should that not also be noted in the 
wiki page that one should be cd'd to the target location before starting 
jigdo-lite, or did I miss that little detail?

Thanks.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If it ain't baroque, don't phiques it.

[Karl Larsen]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>    
> > Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >     
>
>    
> >> p.s.  it's still not clear if jigdo-lite is capable of using the
> >> mount point that is automatically created by inserting the
> >> original DVD, given that the mount point name has embedded spaces,
> >> which is why i suggest that you need to unmount the DVD, then
> >> manually mount it back under something like /mnt.
> >>
> >> has anyone got this to work using the original mount point, which
> >> is something like "/media/Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD"?  that would
> >> simplify things.
> >>
> >>       
> >    Hi Rday, it looks to me like /media/"Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD" should work.
> It
> > is what you do when using basic tools.
> >
> > Karl
> >     
>
>  i tried that and other quoted variations, and none of them worked for
>  me.  are you saying it worked for you?  how odd.
>
>  rday
>  --
>  ========================================================================
>  Robert P. J. Day
>  Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
>  Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
>  http://crashcourse.ca
>  ========================================================================
>
>     
    No! I was trying "" and it took it and started to d/l the new 
packages so I thought it was happy. It was not. So it gave me a chance, 
since it spit out what I sent, and I gave it just /media/ and it ran the 
DVD and d/l a lot of files and then just died.

    The place it was putting things had just the d/l rpm files. It 
didn't work for me at all.

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 27 December 2007, Tim wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-12-27 at 07:29 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I just tried it again, still dead.  Ping has been sitting here for
> > about half an hour:
> > [root@coyote linux-2.6.24-rc6]# ping crashcourse.ca
> > PING crashcourse.ca (64.235.106.9) 56(84) bytes of data.
>
> The "site" works here, too, but it's not pingable.  Responding to pings
> is an entirely different networking issue, and isn't really usable as a
> diagnostic tool for whether a webserver is serving.
>
> Try a different browser, just in case Firefox (or whatever else) has got
> it into its head that the site can't be reached, and it just isn't going
> to try again.  Been there, done that, but don't have the tee shirt...
>  
Now that's odd, seamonkey walked right in.  WTH?

> --
> (This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
>  important to the thread.)
>
> Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
> I read messages from the public lists. 


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Body by Nautilus, Brain by Mattel.

CVS is dead

[Martin Marques]

Robert P. J. Day escribió:
>  
>  and if one were to start a new project that didn't have to be strictly
>  backward compatible with anything, and one already had a decent
>  grounding in CVS, subversion would also be a reasonable choice. 
Why?

CVS is dead

[Martin Marques]

Michael Schwendt escribió:
>  On 27/12/2007, Martin Marques wrote:
> > Karl Larsen escribió:
> >>    Beginning now I planned to learn what CVS is and look for
> >> instructions on wiki care and feeding.
> > Please Karl. CVS is dead. Check Mercurial, which is great, has a book to
> > learn how to use it, is distributed and has an excelent help:
>  
>  Still, CVS is very relevant to Fedora, since several of its
>  repositories use CVS. The source RPM contents are maintained in CVS,
>  for example.
>   
AFAIK, migration to git is on it's way.

CVS is dead (was: how to jigdo download a fedora 8 re-spin in one easy step?)

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Michael Schwendt wrote:

>  On 27/12/2007, Martin Marques wrote:
>  > Karl Larsen escribió:
>  > >
>  > >    Beginning now I planned to learn what CVS is and look for
>  > > instructions on wiki care and feeding.
>  >
>  > Please Karl. CVS is dead. Check Mercurial, which is great, has a
>  > book to learn how to use it, is distributed and has an excelent
>  > help:
>
>  Still, CVS is very relevant to Fedora, since several of its
>  repositories use CVS. The source RPM contents are maintained in CVS,
>  for example. 
and if one were to start a new project that didn't have to be strictly
backward compatible with anything, and one already had a decent
grounding in CVS, subversion would also be a reasonable choice.

rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 27 December 2007, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 27 December 2007, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > >  ok, there's a new and improved wiki page which removes any necessity
> > >for messing with mounting and unmounting.
> > >
> > >http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Getting_Fedora_respins_with_Jigd
> > >o
> >
> > Humm, dns resolves it, but its on the missing list from here.
>
> ok, that's a bit of a mystery -- everything looks good from here.
>  
I just tried it again, still dead.  Ping has been sitting here for about half 
an hour:
[root@coyote linux-2.6.24-rc6]# ping crashcourse.ca
PING crashcourse.ca (64.235.106.9) 56(84) bytes of data.
_

Odd.

> rday
> --
> ========================================================================
> Robert P. J. Day
> Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
> Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
> http://crashcourse.ca
> ======================================================================== 


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
According to the obituary notices, a mean and unimportant person never dies.

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, David Boles wrote:

>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>
>  >    Sorry it does not help. Jigsaw seems to want a url and when I
>  > give it a /media/name/packages/ it says Not a proper URL. Perhaps
>  > I need to add some "" but really I need a way to mount the DVD.
>
>  If you are looking at what I *think* that you are looking at here
>  the URL is:
>
>  http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/20071218/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8.j...
>
>  As for the dvd - does it not mount when you put it in the drive? If
>  not mount it yourself. The answer to one of the other questions
>  asked is the path to the dvd. 
as i mention at the wiki page, jigdo-lite appears to have trouble
dealing with mount points that contain embedded spaces, which is
exactly what you're going to get if you let the DVD be auto-mounted --
you'll get a mount point of (in my case, at least):

/dev/sr0 on /media/Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD type iso9660 (ro,nosuid,nodev,uhelper=hal,uid=500)
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

hence the need for unmounting and remounting at a sane mount point,
unless there's a trick to make this work (i've tried backslash
escaping the spaces and using tab completion, neither of which
worked).

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Dave Stevens wrote:

>  I am quite sympathetic to your issue, Robert, but have only limited
>  optimism that the matter will get satisfactorily resolved. Fedora is
>  by design a fast moving distro, and documentation, even with good
>  resources, is always behind any given software. The lifetime of
>  correct simple documentation is, it seems to me, limited and
>  unknown. 
but that would seem to be a good argument *for* having a
straightforward cookbook of fedora recipes -- if it takes too long to
figure something out, by the time you do, it's too late and you've
already moved on to the next release.

anyway, i've whined sufficiently on this topic that it's time to move
on to whining about another topic.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
> >> Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Maybe so, but you have obviously done this several times previously,
> >>> David. As far as the gui is concerned, no it is not needed, but the
> >>> majority of us would like to have one with 2 or three file requesters to
> >>> use, one for getting the src listing from the url, one for finding that
> >>> src list on your machine once its been downloaded, and one to tell it
> >>> where to put the results.  With such a working gui that launched the
> >>> jigdo-lite as a background process giving it the correct syntax and data
> >>> as derived from the file requesters, I'd bet that jigdo usage would
> >>> multiply by 10 in a week.
> >>
> >> I don't recall if I pointed you at this site page before or not. I have
> >> others. But it just about does not get more clear than this. Done by
> >> Fedora people, for Fedora people, to download Fedora isos.
> >>
> >>
> >> Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
> >> http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
> >>
> >>
> >> This site gives very good, clear instructions. They were for me. And, as
> >> an experiment, I just did this again while running Windows XP Pro. That
> >> was interesting because there are next to no instructions for that way.
> >> And none of the Linux instructions 'work' in the Windows jigdo. They are
> >> all actually writen for Debian isos and had to be edited.
> >>
> >> And yes I have done this before now. Several times. Just for giggles and
> >> grins. I have also, somewhere, the necessary rsync CLI that will let you
> >> 'change' a rc1 beta to a rc2 beta iso by just 'diffing' the
> changed
> >> parts of the contents between the two.
> >> --
> >
> > And that, David, TBT, makes a heck of a lot more sense.  That should be
> > published, but I suspect a carefull reading of the rsync docs would soon
> > re-invent that particular wheel.
>
> This got to bugging me. Many boxes of junk searches looking in notebooks
> later:
>
>
> Here is the information that I used. It is dated and I did have to
> 'edit' it to fit what I was doing, from where, and where I was doing it.
> It was quite fast even on the 56k modem I was using at the time.
>
> The *exact* line that I used for this experiment was this: (all on one
> line - note the 'space' between .iso and .)
>
> rsync -auvH
> mirrors.usc.edu::mandrakelinux/official/iso/2007.0/DVD/mandriva-free-2007-DV
> D.iso . 
ISTR I did something along those lines, but between machines on my own 
network, sucking it from my firewall box so the latest (ran it from a crontab 
entry) run was done at about or a bit ahead of firing off amanda for its 
nightly run.  AIR, I couldn't get amanda to jump the network at the time & 
this worked well.  Amanda was then backing up the local image 20 minutes 
later.

But I don't recall using the -H option.  If this is a shortcut for the
"host:" 
option, my manpage does not so list it.  My copy is dated Nov 6, 2006.

> The information came from here:
>
> Using rsync to Update Mandrake-Linux ISO Images
> http://cybercfo.gkmweb.com/rsync-mandrakeiso.html
>
> Sometimes we have more time than brains.  ;-)
>  
Chuckle, that we do David.  And its even worse when you are retired & have 
more time. :)

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
River: (near a woman in labor) "Who do you think is in there?"
				--Episode #13, "Heart of Gold"

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Dean S. Messing wrote:

>  In using the jigdo-lite CLI interface, how does one know how much
>  "progress" has been made in constructing the overall .iso?
>
>  In my case I decided to use the "Everything" .jigdo file and just
>  download all three DVDs from scratch (since I'm not in a hurry).  n
>  I have three jigdo-lite's running in parallel on my machine pumping
>  stuff into three directories.  But in each case, it pre-allocated
>  the space for the entire .iso so I can't tell from its size how much
>  has been downloaded.  The other assorted files in each dir don't
>  seem to help much either.
>
>  The individual wget's each have a progress meter but they are for
>  _that_ particular call to wget, not for the whole .iso.
>
>  Ideas? 
i saw pretty much the same thing you did -- no *overall* progress
meter.  unless i missed it, i don't think one exists.

rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, David Boles wrote:

>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Gene Heskett wrote:
>  > On Wednesday 26 December 2007, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:
>  >
>  > Beartooth: The gui is broken, as the docs we *do* have clearly
>  > say.  Use the cli, jigdo-lite version.  Its been broken since it
>  > release in 2004 or 2005, and no one to my knowledge has touched it
>  > with an eye toward fixing it.
>
>  There is no working GUI for jigdo. And, IMO, one is not really
>  needed. Jigdo-lite 0.7.3 is *not* broken. I have this theory. If it
>  ain't broke - - don't fix it.  ;-) 
i tweaked the wiki page to emphasize that, yes, it *is* the jigdo-lite
command that you run -- that wasn't a typo, as a couple commenters
might have thought.

and i added the commands to unmount the DVD from under /media and
remount it under /mnt to get around the issue with the initial mount
point having embedded spaces, for those who aren't familiar with
manually mounting media.

http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Getting_Fedora_respins_with_Jigdo

rday

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Gene Heskett wrote:

>  On Wednesday 26 December 2007, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote: 
>  >	For the last two or three days, I've done little else but
> try
>  >to get the re-spin of F8. Twice, now, I've gotten two downloads
>  >going in parallel (on one instance of jigdo -- using the GUI
>  >interface that "yum install jigdo" gave me.
>
>  Beartooth: The gui is broken, as the docs we *do* have clearly say.
>  Use the cli, jigdo-lite version.  Its been broken since it release
>  in 2004 or 2005, and no one to my knowledge has touched it with an
>  eye toward fixing it. 
exactly.  i'll fix my wiki page to emphasize that, while you need to
install the jigdo *package*, the command you run is "jigdo-lite".  i
didn't bother with the GUI front-end.

rday

p.s.  it's still not clear if jigdo-lite is capable of using the mount
point that is automatically created by inserting the original DVD,
given that the mount point name has embedded spaces, which is why i
suggest that you need to unmount the DVD, then manually mount it back
under something like /mnt.

has anyone got this to work using the original mount point, which is
something like "/media/Fedora 8 x86_64 DVD"?  that would simplify
things.

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Dean S. Messing]

In using the jigdo-lite CLI interface, how does one know how much
"progress" has been made in constructing the overall .iso?

In my case I decided to use the "Everything" .jigdo file and just
download all three DVDs from scratch (since I'm not in a hurry).  n I
have three jigdo-lite's running in parallel on my machine pumping
stuff into three directories.  But in each case, it pre-allocated the
space for the entire .iso so I can't tell from its size how much has
been downloaded.  The other assorted files in each dir don't seem to
help much either.

The individual wget's each have a progress meter but they are for
_that_ particular call to wget, not for the whole .iso.

Ideas?

Dean

[David]

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Hash: SHA1

Gene Heskett wrote:
>  On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
> > Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
> >>
> >> Maybe so, but you have obviously done this several times previously,
> >> David. As far as the gui is concerned, no it is not needed, but the
> >> majority of us would like to have one with 2 or three file requesters to
> >> use, one for getting the src listing from the url, one for finding that
> >> src list on your machine once its been downloaded, and one to tell it
> >> where to put the results.  With such a working gui that launched the
> >> jigdo-lite as a background process giving it the correct syntax and data
> >> as derived from the file requesters, I'd bet that jigdo usage would
> >> multiply by 10 in a week.
> > I don't recall if I pointed you at this site page before or not. I have
> > others. But it just about does not get more clear than this. Done by
> > Fedora people, for Fedora people, to download Fedora isos.
> >
> >
> > Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
> > http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
> >
> >
> > This site gives very good, clear instructions. They were for me. And, as
> > an experiment, I just did this again while running Windows XP Pro. That
> > was interesting because there are next to no instructions for that way.
> > And none of the Linux instructions 'work' in the Windows jigdo. They are
> > all actually writen for Debian isos and had to be edited.
> >
> > And yes I have done this before now. Several times. Just for giggles and
> > grins. I have also, somewhere, the necessary rsync CLI that will let you
> > 'change' a rc1 beta to a rc2 beta iso by just 'diffing' the changed
> > parts of the contents between the two.
> > --
> >
>  And that, David, TBT, makes a heck of a lot more sense.  That should be 
>  published, but I suspect a carefull reading of the rsync docs would soon 
>  re-invent that particular wheel. 

This got to bugging me. Many boxes of junk searches looking in notebooks
later:


Here is the information that I used. It is dated and I did have to
'edit' it to fit what I was doing, from where, and where I was doing it.
It was quite fast even on the 56k modem I was using at the time.

The *exact* line that I used for this experiment was this: (all on one
line - note the 'space' between .iso and .)

rsync -auvH
mirrors.usc.edu::mandrakelinux/official/iso/2007.0/DVD/mandriva-free-2007-DVD.iso
.

The information came from here:

Using rsync to Update Mandrake-Linux ISO Images
http://cybercfo.gkmweb.com/rsync-mandrakeiso.html

Sometimes we have more time than brains.  ;-)

- --


  David
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karl Larsen wrote:
>  David Boles wrote:
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>   
> >>> David Boles wrote:
> >>> Karl Larsen wrote:
> >>>  
> >>>    
> >>>>>>    I and rday are going to write a help file using this jigdo
> >>>>>> method to
> >>>>>> make your own respin of any Fedora version. But I have problems.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>    Rday says you need to mount the F8 DVD on /mnt/. On my
> computer it
> >>>>>> automatically mounts on /media/. I fix that in a root terminal
> by
> >>>>>> #umount name-of-DVD and it works fine.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>    My problem is I can't find the proper things to mount the
> DVD to
> >>>>>> /mnt/. I thought I could find the right things in /etc/fstab but
> they
> >>>>>> are not listed there any more :-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>    Does anyone know how to do the mount function on a DVD?
> >>>>>>               
> >>> Karl,
> >>>
> >>> this should help you with your project.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
> >>> http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
> >>>
> >>>     
>  
>   
> >>>    Sorry it does not help. Jigsaw seems to want a url and when I give it
> >>> a /media/name/packages/ it says Not a proper URL. Perhaps I need to add
> >>> some "" but really I need a way to mount the DVD.
> >>>     
>  
>  
>   
> >>> Karl
> >>>     
>  
>  If you are looking at what I *think* that you are looking at here the
>  URL is:
>  
>  http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/20071218/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8.j...
>  
>  
>  As for the dvd - does it not mount when you put it in the drive? If not
>  mount it yourself. The answer to one of the other questions asked is the
>  path to the dvd.
>    
> >    The DVD is mounted to /media/ automatic upon putting the DVD in the
> > reader.
>  
> > Now the http you show is a real hodge-podge of stuff and I have no idea
> > how that will help me. But I will try it.
>  
> > As for writing instructions for this task, I first must be able to DO it
> > :-) 

The URL is the link to the jigdo file download templates. The script
that runs needs those files because they contain the iso template, the
paths data for the new files, and the 'selection' that lets you tell the
script what you want to download and create.

Good luck.  ;-)

- --


  David

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> =uvUf
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

CVS is dead (was: how to jigdo download a fedora 8 re-spin in one easy step?)

[Martin Marques]

Karl Larsen escribió:
>  
>     Beginning now I planned to learn what CVS is and look for 
>  instructions on wiki care and feeding. 
Please Karl. CVS is dead. Check Mercurial, which is great, has a book to 
learn how to use it, is distributed and has an excelent help:

$ yum install mercurial
$ hg help

Be happy! :-D

[Karl Larsen]

Gene Heskett wrote:
>  On Wednesday 26 December 2007, David Boles wrote:
>    
> > Gene Heskett wrote:
> >     
> >> On Wednesday 26 December 2007, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:
> >>
> >> Beartooth: The gui is broken, as the docs we *do* have clearly say.  Use
> >> the cli, jigdo-lite version.  Its been broken since it release in 2004 or
> >> 2005, and no one to my knowledge has touched it with an eye toward fixing
> >> it.
> >>       
> > There is no working GUI for jigdo. And, IMO, one is not really needed.
> > Jigdo-lite 0.7.3 is *not* broken. I have this theory. If it ain't broke
> > - don't fix it.  ;-)
> >
> > While all of this complaining about 'it's too hard' was going on I took
> > about ten minutes to find the files and instructions for jidgo and the
> > Unity DVD iso file. It took about 1 1/2 hours for jigdo to download the
> > changes and create the new iso. I then tested it on my beta/rc
> > partition. It boots and installs with no problems.  YMMV
> >     
>
>  Maybe so, but you have obviously done this several times previously, David.  
>  As far as the gui is concerned, no it is not needed, but the majority of us 
>  would like to have one with 2 or three file requesters to use, one for 
>  getting the src listing from the url, one for finding that src list on your 
>  machine once its been downloaded, and one to tell it where to put the 
>  results.  With such a working gui that launched the jigdo-lite as a 
>  background process giving it the correct syntax and data as derived from the 
>  file requesters, I'd bet that jigdo usage would multiply by 10 in a week.
>
>    
> >> Sorry to hear that.  If the bandwidth is available, I've found it easier
> >> and easier to pull the iso's as each new release sneaks out the door.
> >>       
> > --
> >
> >
> >  David
> >     
>
>
>
>     
    Well so far the GUI called Jigsaw which is what you get if you yum 
-y install jigado is nice but I can't get it to work and of course there 
are no help files. And of course if I can't get anything to work I can't 
write the instructions :-)

Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Karl Larsen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>    
> > David Boles wrote:
> > Karl Larsen wrote:
> >  
> >     
> >>>>    I and rday are going to write a help file using this jigdo method to
> >>>> make your own respin of any Fedora version. But I have problems.
> >>>>
> >>>>    Rday says you need to mount the F8 DVD on /mnt/. On my computer it
> >>>> automatically mounts on /media/. I fix that in a root terminal by
> >>>> #umount name-of-DVD and it works fine.
> >>>>
> >>>>    My problem is I can't find the proper things to mount the DVD to
> >>>> /mnt/. I thought I could find the right things in /etc/fstab but they
> >>>> are not listed there any more :-)
> >>>>
> >>>>    Does anyone know how to do the mount function on a DVD?
> >>>>     
> >>>>           
> > Karl,
> >
> > this should help you with your project.
> >
> >
> > Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
> > http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
> >
> >     
>
>    
> >    Sorry it does not help. Jigsaw seems to want a url and when I give it
> > a /media/name/packages/ it says Not a proper URL. Perhaps I need to add
> > some "" but really I need a way to mount the DVD.
> >     
>
>
>    
> > Karl
> >     
>
>  If you are looking at what I *think* that you are looking at here the
>  URL is:
>
>  http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/20071218/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8.j...
>
>  As for the dvd - does it not mount when you put it in the drive? If not
>  mount it yourself. The answer to one of the other questions asked is the
>  path to the dvd.
>     
    The DVD is mounted to /media/ automatic upon putting the DVD in the 
reader.

Now the http you show is a real hodge-podge of stuff and I have no idea 
how that will help me. But I will try it.

As for writing instructions for this task, I first must be able to DO it 
:-)

Karl


>  - --
>
>
>    David
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> >
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> >  92kAoKgAYJ2qLT3aYCkWHUqqVRyPEHOf
> >  =WLze
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>     

-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Karl Larsen]

    I and rday are going to write a help file using this jigdo method to 
make your own respin of any Fedora version. But I have problems.

    Rday says you need to mount the F8 DVD on /mnt/. On my computer it 
automatically mounts on /media/. I fix that in a root terminal by 
#umount name-of-DVD and it works fine.

    My problem is I can't find the proper things to mount the DVD to 
/mnt/. I thought I could find the right things in /etc/fstab but they 
are not listed there any more :-)

    Does anyone know how to do the mount function on a DVD?

Karl

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karl Larsen wrote:
>  David Boles wrote:
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>   
> >>>    I and rday are going to write a help file using this jigdo method to
> >>> make your own respin of any Fedora version. But I have problems.
> >>>
> >>>    Rday says you need to mount the F8 DVD on /mnt/. On my computer it
> >>> automatically mounts on /media/. I fix that in a root terminal by
> >>> #umount name-of-DVD and it works fine.
> >>>
> >>>    My problem is I can't find the proper things to mount the DVD to
> >>> /mnt/. I thought I could find the right things in /etc/fstab but they
> >>> are not listed there any more :-)
> >>>
> >>>    Does anyone know how to do the mount function on a DVD?
> >>>     
>  
>  Karl,
>  
>  this should help you with your project.
>  
>  
>  Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
>  http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
>  
> > 
>     Sorry it does not help. Jigsaw seems to want a url and when I give
> it
>  a /media/name/packages/ it says Not a proper URL. Perhaps I need to add
>  some "" but really I need a way to mount the DVD. 

>  Karl 
If you are looking at what I *think* that you are looking at here the
URL is:

http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/20071218/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8.j...

As for the dvd - does it not mount when you put it in the drive? If not
mount it yourself. The answer to one of the other questions asked is the
path to the dvd.
- --


  David
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> =WLze
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Karl Larsen]

David Boles wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Karl Larsen wrote:
>    
> >    I and rday are going to write a help file using this jigdo method to
> > make your own respin of any Fedora version. But I have problems.
> >
> >    Rday says you need to mount the F8 DVD on /mnt/. On my computer it
> > automatically mounts on /media/. I fix that in a root terminal by
> > #umount name-of-DVD and it works fine.
> >
> >    My problem is I can't find the proper things to mount the DVD to
> > /mnt/. I thought I could find the right things in /etc/fstab but they
> > are not listed there any more :-)
> >
> >    Does anyone know how to do the mount function on a DVD?
> >     
>
>  Karl,
>
>  this should help you with your project.
>
>
>  Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
>  http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
>
>  - --
>
>
>    David
>
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (MingW32)
> >
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> >  =8PEo
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>     
    Sorry it does not help. Jigsaw seems to want a url and when I give 
it a /media/name/packages/ it says Not a proper URL. Perhaps I need to 
add some "" but really I need a way to mount the DVD.


Karl


-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Karl Larsen wrote:
>  
>     I and rday are going to write a help file using this jigdo method to
>  make your own respin of any Fedora version. But I have problems.
>  
>     Rday says you need to mount the F8 DVD on /mnt/. On my computer it
>  automatically mounts on /media/. I fix that in a root terminal by
>  #umount name-of-DVD and it works fine.
>  
>     My problem is I can't find the proper things to mount the DVD to
>  /mnt/. I thought I could find the right things in /etc/fstab but they
>  are not listed there any more :-)
>  
>     Does anyone know how to do the mount function on a DVD? 
Karl,

this should help you with your project.


Using Jigdo to Download Re-Spin ISOs
http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/

- --


  David

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> =8PEo
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Gene Heskett wrote:
>  On Wednesday 26 December 2007, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:
>  
>  Beartooth: The gui is broken, as the docs we *do* have clearly say.  Use the 
>  cli, jigdo-lite version.  Its been broken since it release in 2004 or 2005, 
>  and no one to my knowledge has touched it with an eye toward fixing it. 

There is no working GUI for jigdo. And, IMO, one is not really needed.
Jigdo-lite 0.7.3 is *not* broken. I have this theory. If it ain't broke
- - don't fix it.  ;-)

While all of this complaining about 'it's too hard' was going on I took
about ten minutes to find the files and instructions for jidgo and the
Unity DVD iso file. It took about 1 1/2 hours for jigdo to download the
changes and create the new iso. I then tested it on my beta/rc
partition. It boots and installs with no problems.  YMMV


>  Sorry to hear that.  If the bandwidth is available, I've found it
> easier and 
>  easier to pull the iso's as each new release sneaks out the door.
>   

- --


  David
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[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 December 2007, Beartooth Sciurivore wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:52:08 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
> >> OK....
> >>
> >> So, I gather from all of this that the existing documentation, links,
> >> and whatever doesn't measure up to what you need or expect. Would that
> >> be a fair summary?
> >>
> >> Is the question then, how can documentation be improved for the average
> >> user?
> >
> > all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time to figure
> > out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm guessing that, in
> > most cases, readers aren't interested in a long-winded overview of
> > things -- they just want to know what commands to run to get something
> > done, which is all i wanted in the first place.
>
> 	I'll second that, with a small emendation : sooner or later, I
> *will* want to know all the stuff on those sites, and more. Probably
> later, or much later. At first, I just want the result; if/when I get
> used to success, *then* I want to understand.
>
> > in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook" with tight,
> > concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if they choose to
> > read up later on the underlying operations, then that's their choice.
>
> 	Agreed again. And there isn't one, or it's well hidden.
>
> 	For the last two or three days, I've done little else but try to
> get the re-spin of F8. Twice, now, I've gotten two downloads going in
> parallel (on one instance of jigdo -- using the GUI interface that "yum
> install jigdo" gave me. 
Beartooth: The gui is broken, as the docs we *do* have clearly say.  Use the 
cli, jigdo-lite version.  Its been broken since it release in 2004 or 2005, 
and no one to my knowledge has touched it with an eye toward fixing it.

> 	Both times, I've let them run fourteen hours or more, and found
> them next day still using 40% CPU *each* for a total of 80% -- and with
> no hint of approaching success.
>
> 	I finally gave up, despite all those web sites *and* some
> suggestions here. I did a clean install with my old original DVD; ran yum
> update; I'm running pirut now, which will probably take me at least a
> whole day just to get the machine customized much as it was before.
>
> 	And then I'll still have to copy all my user's files and tweaks
> -- or as many of them as I know about -- back from another machine. And
> try to finish before she comes back and needs to resume her own work on
> her machine.
>
> 	And it will still be less trouble than I've already wasted trying
> to get a DVD that would do an upgrade. In fact, it looks like I'll have
> to go back to buying pre-burnt media for F9 and F10 ...
>  
Sorry to hear that.  If the bandwidth is available, I've found it easier and 
easier to pull the iso's as each new release sneaks out the door.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
10.0 times 0.1 is hardly ever 1.0.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 26 December 2007, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > All we need now is someone to author the cookbook and someone to
> > contribute the first recipe.
>
> http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
>
> > Karl?
>
> i must kill you now.  :-)
>  
get in line... :|

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
10.0 times 0.1 is hardly ever 1.0.

[Dave Stevens]

On Wednesday 26 December 2007 08:52:08 am Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  > Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  > >   by the way, the above is still not annoyance-free:
>  >
>  > OK....
>  >
>  > So, I gather from all of this that the existing documentation,
>  > links, and whatever doesn't measure up to what you need or expect.
>  > Would that be a fair summary?
>  >
>  > Is the question then, how can documentation be improved for the
>  > average user?
>
>  all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time to figure
>  out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm guessing that,
>  in most cases, readers aren't interested in a long-winded overview of
>  things -- they just want to know what commands to run to get
>  something done, which is all i wanted in the first place.
>
>  in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook" with tight,
>  concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if they choose
>  to read up later on the underlying operations, then that's their
>  choice.net
>
>  rday 
I am quite sympathetic to your issue, Robert, but have only limited optimism 
that the matter will get satisfactorily resolved. Fedora is by design a fast 
moving distro, and documentation, even with good resources, is always behind 
any given software. The lifetime of correct simple documentation is, it seems 
to me, limited and unknown. Given that clear simple technical writing is 
hard, what are the odds that capable optimists will emerge in sufficient 
numbers? And where is their effort best directed? to parts of Fedora that 
change only slowly? I often wish for better docs for even simple utilities 
(the man pages are routinely useless as tutorials) but don't see a reasonable 
framework into which I could contribute my pickiness about spelling and 
clarity.

I once worked on a project hosted in France, editing English docs written by a 
native French speaker. I rewrote for idiom and spelling. Handy that I had a 
background as a programmer, since the docs were internal and for a library 
that end-users would basically never see directly. Then the project went bust 
for lack of available energy on the part of the lead. Well, it was 
instructive if only of limited effect. But it rather damped my willingness to 
do it all over again.

Dave

>  --
>  ========================================================================
>  Robert P. J. Day
>  Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
>  Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
>  http://crashcourse.ca
>  ======================================================================== 


-- 
There is no single government agency that views sustainability through a broad 
lens, taking into account the values of the people affected by government 
decisions. Any model of sustainability that is driven solely by an economic 
engine is deficient if it is incapable of taking into account social values. 

Mr. Justice David Vickers, BC Supreme Court in Tsilhqot'in Nation v. British 
Columbia,2007

[Karl Larsen]

Kam Leo wrote:
>  On Dec 26, 2007 10:22 AM, Robert P. J. Day
> <rpjday(a)crashcourse.ca&gt; wrote:
>    
> > On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
> >
> >     
> >> All we need now is someone to author the cookbook and someone to
> >> contribute the first recipe.
> >>       
> > http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
> >
> >     
> >> Karl?
> >>       
> > i must kill you now.  :-)
> >
> > rday
> >     
>
>  Fedora Unity Project provides a valuable service. Unfortunately, their
>  site lacks continuity and, as you have written, adequate
>  documentation. The person(s) who created the .jigdo files showed
>  his/her/their creativity by including all architecture options within
>  one file. It must have been a real ego booster to be able to perform
>  this trick. However, this (these) person(s) need a swift kick in the
>  behind(s) for not documenting this departure from the jigdo README.
>
>     
    After seeing what is written at the jigdo part of the cookbook, I 
know the writing needs to be improved and perhaps more needs to be 
understood. I have read enough to know this method was invented by the 
Debian team. It is nice that their current software is available as a 
yum item. Much cleanup and care is needed to make the jigdo clear and 
understandable to a normal Fedora user.

    To write any thing the writer must use the software and succeed in 
making a respin of Fedora 8. This is we know something rday did today. I 
can edit the current page because I clicked edit and there it was. I 
think rday can do the same.

Karl




-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Karl Larsen]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
>
>    
> > All we need now is someone to author the cookbook and someone to
> > contribute the first recipe.
> >     
>
>  http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
>
>    
> > Karl?
> >     
>
>  i must kill you now.  :-)
>     
    I know nothing really about the cookbook or how to run a wiki. But 
here lies an interesting possibility. If  rday can be given  assess to 
the wiki pages then something good might happen.

    Beginning now I planned to learn what CVS is and look for 
instructions on wiki care and feeding. I also have ssh set up and could 
use that if it is done. I designed things on a space control system by 
ssh to the tiny Linux. It worked.

Karl


>  rday
>  --
>  ========================================================================
>  Robert P. J. Day
>  Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
>  Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
>  http://crashcourse.ca
>  ========================================================================
>
>     

-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Kam Leo]

On Dec 26, 2007 11:33 AM, Kam Leo <kam.leo(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Dec 26, 2007 10:22 AM, Robert P. J. Day
> <rpjday(a)crashcourse.ca&gt; wrote:
>  > On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  >
>  > > All we need now is someone to author the cookbook and someone to
>  > > contribute the first recipe.
>  >
>  > http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
>  >
>  > > Karl?
>  >
>  > i must kill you now.  :-)
>  >
>  > rday
>
>  Fedora Unity Project provides a valuable service. Unfortunately, their
>  site lacks continuity and, as you have written, adequate
>  documentation. The person(s) who created the .jigdo files showed
>  his/her/their creativity by including all architecture options within
>  one file. It must have been a real ego booster to be able to perform
>  this trick. However, this (these) person(s) need a swift kick in the
>  behind(s) for not documenting this departure from the jigdo README. 
Correction: It's not the README but the debian-jigdo-mini-howto.html.

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:

>  All we need now is someone to author the cookbook and someone to
>  contribute the first recipe. 
http://www.crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook

>  Karl? 
i must kill you now.  :-)

rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[David]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  
> > Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >
> >>   by the way, the above is still not annoyance-free:
> > OK....
> >
> > So, I gather from all of this that the existing documentation,
> > links, and whatever doesn't measure up to what you need or expect.
> > Would that be a fair summary?
> >
> > Is the question then, how can documentation be improved for the
> > average user?
>  
>  all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time to figure
>  out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm guessing that,
>  in most cases, readers aren't interested in a long-winded overview of
>  things -- they just want to know what commands to run to get
>  something done, which is all i wanted in the first place.
>  
>  in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook" with tight,
>  concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if they choose
>  to read up later on the underlying operations, then that's their
>  choice. 

Yeah. It did take a few minutes to find the importation and edit the
files to fit. The actual downloading, which I do not really need, took
about one and one half hours to get the the updates and build the new iso.


- --


  David
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>
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> =BSGm
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Ed Greshko wrote:

>  Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>
>  >   by the way, the above is still not annoyance-free:
>
>  OK....
>
>  So, I gather from all of this that the existing documentation,
>  links, and whatever doesn't measure up to what you need or expect.
>  Would that be a fair summary?
>
>  Is the question then, how can documentation be improved for the
>  average user? 
all i'm suggesting is that it took an inordinately long time to figure
out what should have been a two-minute exercise.  i'm guessing that,
in most cases, readers aren't interested in a long-winded overview of
things -- they just want to know what commands to run to get
something done, which is all i wanted in the first place.

in short, what people might want is a fedora "cookbook" with tight,
concise recipes that just plain work, out of the box.  if they choose
to read up later on the underlying operations, then that's their
choice.

rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Ed Greshko]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:

>    by the way, the above is still not annoyance-free: 
OK....

So, I gather from all of this that the existing documentation, links, and
whatever doesn't measure up to what you need or expect.  Would that be a
fair summary?

Is the question then, how can documentation be improved for the average user?

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Robert P. J. Day wrote:

>  On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Martin Marques wrote:
>
>  > Nah, better use:
>  >
>  > http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/
>
>  putting together bits of info from various pages, here's what appears
>  to be what i was looking for if i want a respin of F8 x86_64:
>
>  1) make sure jigdo is installed (well, duh)
>  2) pop in original F8 x86_64 DVD to avoid unnecessary downloads of
>     unchanged packages
>  3) cd to preferred download directory and run:
>     $ jigdo-lite
> http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/20071218/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8.j...
>  4) when asked, select image "13": Fedora-Unity-20071218-8-x86_64-DVD.iso
>  5) when prompted, enter mount point of original DVD
>
>    that's it -- that's all i wanted to know.  does that look correct?
>  and why couldn't that have been written out on a single page
>  somewhere? 


  by the way, the above is still not annoyance-free:

...
Files to scan: /media/Fedora\ 8\ x86_64\ DVD/   <--- my answer (tab completed)
Skipping object `/media/Fedora\ 8\ x86_64\ DVD/' (No such file or directory)
Found 0 of the 2584 files required by the template
Will not create image or temporary file - try again with different input files

-----------------------------------------------------------------
If you already have a previous version of the CD you are
downloading, jigdo can re-use files on the old CD that are also
present in the new image, and you do not need to download them
again. Mount the old CD ROM and enter the path it is mounted under
(e.g. `/mnt/cdrom').
Alternatively, just press enter if you want to start downloading
the remaining files.
Files to scan:
...

  i'm guessing it's the spaces in the volume name that caused the
problem, as all i did was unmount and remount manually under /mnt and
the scanning is now proceeding nicely.

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Martin Marques wrote:

>  Nah, better use:
>
>  http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/ 
putting together bits of info from various pages, here's what appears
to be what i was looking for if i want a respin of F8 x86_64:

1) make sure jigdo is installed (well, duh)
2) pop in original F8 x86_64 DVD to avoid unnecessary downloads of
   unchanged packages
3) cd to preferred download directory and run:
   $ jigdo-lite
http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/20071218/Fedora-Unity-20071218-8.j...
4) when asked, select image "13": Fedora-Unity-20071218-8-x86_64-DVD.iso
5) when prompted, enter mount point of original DVD

  that's it -- that's all i wanted to know.  does that look correct?
and why couldn't that have been written out on a single page
somewhere?

rday
--

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Karl Larsen]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>    for the first time, i'd like to download the fedora 8 x86_64
> re-spin
>  and, to be frank, there's not a single web page i've found that tells
>  me how to use jigdo to do it.
>
>    i've perused the tutorials and HOWTOs at fedoraunity.org and
>  followed links, and i'm now fairly conversant on the rationale behind
>  re-spins and why jigdo was developed and a whole lot of other stuff
>  but i've yet to find a single page that says, "oh, you want a re-spin?
>  follow these steps."
>     
    My problem was the man page tells you what console-perms is and who 
wrote it but nothing about how to use it. I looked around and found by 
accident how to use it.

    So I tried to join the Fedora Documentation group and found the 
documentation on how to do this, and a flacky old computer at MIT made 
this a 2 week effort. Since I started trying to join the people in the 
group are trying to make it easier to do so.

    When I learn to use their wiki pages I will write down how to use 
console-perms in plain simple English. It takes a lot longer than I thought.

Karl



>    seriously, this is what i think has been a fundamental failing of
> a
>  lot of online fedora documentation -- the notion of a simple "recipe":
>  do these things, and you will get what you want.  instead, there's
>  typically a great deal of philosophical substantiation, while the poor
>  reader is just sitting there, thinking, "well, yeah, but i just want
>  to *do* something, so how do i *do* it?"  (it's sort of like, when i
>  ask someone for the time, i want them to tell me the time, i don't
>  need to be told how to build a watch.)
>
>    so, really, when i decided to grab a re-spin, i figured to invest a
>  minute or two googling, find the command, and run it.  i'm still
>  looking.  why is it typically this time-consuming?
>
>  rday
>
>
>  ========================================================================
>  Robert P. J. Day
>  Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
>  Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
>  http://crashcourse.ca
>  ========================================================================
>
>     

-- 

	Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
	Linux User
	#450462   http://counter.li.org.
   PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C  ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Martin Marques wrote:

>  Ed Greshko escribió: 
>  > Not 100% sure what you are asking...but are you seeking
>  > http://atterer.net/jigdo/ for guidance?
>  >
>
>  Nah, better use:
>
>  http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/ 
heh.  i've been there as well.  i'm amused that, when that page tells
you that you need a real jigdo file, it links you to
http://spins.fedoraunity.org/, and when you go *there* and read down
to "How to Use Jigdo?", it links you back to (you guessed it) the page
you just came from.

are you starting to see what i'm talking about here?

rday

========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

http://crashcourse.ca
========================================================================

[Martin Marques]

Ed Greshko escribió:
>  Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >   for the first time, i'd like to download the fedora 8 x86_64 re-spin
> > and, to be frank, there's not a single web page i've found that tells
> > me how to use jigdo to do it.
> >
> >   i've perused the tutorials and HOWTOs at fedoraunity.org and
> > followed links, and i'm now fairly conversant on the rationale behind
> > re-spins and why jigdo was developed and a whole lot of other stuff
> > but i've yet to find a single page that says, "oh, you want a re-spin?
> > follow these steps."
> >
> >   seriously, this is what i think has been a fundamental failing of a
> > lot of online fedora documentation -- the notion of a simple "recipe":
> > do these things, and you will get what you want.  instead, there's
> > typically a great deal of philosophical substantiation, while the poor
> > reader is just sitting there, thinking, "well, yeah, but i just want
> > to *do* something, so how do i *do* it?"  (it's sort of like, when i
> > ask someone for the time, i want them to tell me the time, i don't
> > need to be told how to build a watch.)
> >
> >   so, really, when i decided to grab a re-spin, i figured to invest a
> > minute or two googling, find the command, and run it.  i'm still
> > looking.  why is it typically this time-consuming?
>  
>  Not 100% sure what you are asking...but are you seeking
>  http://atterer.net/jigdo/ for guidance?
>   
Nah, better use:

http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/

[Ed Greshko]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>    for the first time, i'd like to download the fedora 8 x86_64
> re-spin
>  and, to be frank, there's not a single web page i've found that tells
>  me how to use jigdo to do it.
>  
>    i've perused the tutorials and HOWTOs at fedoraunity.org and
>  followed links, and i'm now fairly conversant on the rationale behind
>  re-spins and why jigdo was developed and a whole lot of other stuff
>  but i've yet to find a single page that says, "oh, you want a re-spin?
>  follow these steps."
>  
>    seriously, this is what i think has been a fundamental failing of a
>  lot of online fedora documentation -- the notion of a simple "recipe":
>  do these things, and you will get what you want.  instead, there's
>  typically a great deal of philosophical substantiation, while the poor
>  reader is just sitting there, thinking, "well, yeah, but i just want
>  to *do* something, so how do i *do* it?"  (it's sort of like, when i
>  ask someone for the time, i want them to tell me the time, i don't
>  need to be told how to build a watch.)
>  
>    so, really, when i decided to grab a re-spin, i figured to invest a
>  minute or two googling, find the command, and run it.  i'm still
>  looking.  why is it typically this time-consuming? 
Not 100% sure what you are asking...but are you seeking
http://atterer.net/jigdo/ for guidance?