fedora 9 pre release

[lostson]

 Hey All
 I loaded the f9 pre release today and there is no system-config-soundcard 
where has this gone ? 
-- 
LostSon

http://lostsonsvault.org

[Bill Davidsen]

Gene Heskett wrote:
>  On Friday 18 April 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > lostson wrote:
> >>  Hey All
> >>  I loaded the f9 pre release today and there is no system-config-soundcard
> >> where has this gone ?
> > Removed. Refer
> >
> > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-March/msg02148.html
> >
> > If your sound card doesn't work out of the box, file a bug report.
> >
> > Rahul
>  
>  And for those of us who use the onboard sound for skype/ekiga/etc, and another 
>  GOOD pci card for everrything else, there should be a reminder to save ones 
>  modprobe.conf someplace safe, cuz I'll bet you a 12 pack f9 will screw that 
>  up royally.  One size does not fit all, Rahul.  Never will.
>   
If by "screw up royally" you mean that given a choice of two sound cards

and a video capture card which has only DMA sound and needs magic 
software to do anything, and chooses the TV card as "the" sound card... 
if that's what you mean, you're right.

Feels like Fedora is trying to be ubuntu, or Windows, and do everything 
for the user without asking. Clearly this is a philosophical issue, and 
removing the ability to make a choice with sound is not a "bug" but a 
"design decision for ease of use" and will be justified "to avoid 
confusing non-technical users."

I chose Fedora over other distros because I could configuring it without 
having to fight with defaults, and the system offered useful 
suggestions, not mandates. Then came NetMangler, and it took hours to 
really get that piece of crap not only removed but not missed by 
applications which reported "no network" if NM wasn't choosing which 
connections I could use. Now sound is gone, too? I haven't tried the 
beta, the alpha is on one machine with minimal sound hardware, and made 
a good decision to use the one card it found.

-- 
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com&gt;
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot

[Rahul Sundaram]

lostson wrote:

> >
>   Ah i see i must of missed that the first time around. I am guessing i will be out of
> luck with fedora 9 considering nvidia wont work and now neither will my soundcard, fun
> fun.
>   
The Nv drivers included will work. The proprietary Nvidia drivers won't 
since they haven't been updated to the new Xorg ABI. As for the sound 
card issues, you might want to post to fedora test list with more 
details or file a bug report.

Rahul

[Bill Davidsen]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Bill Davidsen wrote:
> > Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >> jdow wrote:
> >>
> >>> Rahul, turning your words back on you feel free to explain the 
> >>> technical
> >>> issues. This issue has raised enough dust it might be wise to help the
> >>> dust settle.
> >>
> >> I already did that in the first mail in this thread.
> >>
> > Excuse all of us who don't feel that "If your sound card doesn't work 
> > out of the box, file a bug report" isn't an explanation of the 
> > technical issues 
>  
>  Nope because that wasn't the first mail in the thread. Pay attention 
>  next time.
>   
Funny, my browser thinks <200804181025.49438.lostson(a)lostsonsvault.org&gt; 
is the first mail in the thread. It isn't even yours! The first post 
from you was <4808CFD2.1050805(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; which also contains no 
technical detail, just a link to a list of things which someone (again 
not you) thinks could be improved and a suggestion ("why do we need this 
in the default install?") that it not be run by default.

Taking out something because it isn't perfect is like shooting your 
seeing eye dog because he has a sore paw. You avoid having to fix the 
problem but are left in the dark. The administration tool (in alpha) did 
not seem to want to marked the default card, and after each boot used 
whatever looks like a sound card on an HDTV Wonder. Probably because the 
modprobe doesn't seem to set card numbers, or ???

When I finish evaluating ubuntu if FC9 final is out I'll try the process 
again.

-- 
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com&gt;
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot

[Rahul Sundaram]

lostson wrote:

>  
>   Ok then Rahul then so what your saying is if your sound doesnt work your card isnt
> supported and thats that.,or is it. Are there some other magical tools that are being put
> into fedora that I missed in my preview release fun ?
>   
My first reply had a reference to

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-March/msg02148.html

That has all the details on why the utility has been dropped. This tool 
was written long back and hasn't been updated to deal with a number of 
new technologies that makes the tool obsolete or worse causes more harm 
  compared to any advantages left with it.

Rahul

[lostson]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 05:52:59 +0530
Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  lostson wrote:
>  
>  >>
>  >  Ah i see i must of missed that the first time around. I am guessing i will be out
> of luck with fedora 9 considering nvidia wont work and now neither will my soundcard, fun
> fun.
>  > 
>  
>  The Nv drivers included will work. The proprietary Nvidia drivers won't 
>  since they haven't been updated to the new Xorg ABI. As for the sound 
>  card issues, you might want to post to fedora test list with more 
>  details or file a bug report.
>  
>  Rahul
>   
 Actually I think I will follow suit with the gentleman in the So Long and Thanks
for all the fish thread. Disks have been re-formated and Debian is back in full swing.
Thanks Fedora for all the memories. Its been a hell of a ride since RH 7.2. Wishing Fedora
all the best.

 LostSon

[lostson]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 05:42:25 +0530
Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  lostson wrote:
>  
>  > 
>  >  Ok then Rahul then so what your saying is if your sound doesnt work your card isnt
> supported and thats that.,or is it. Are there some other magical tools that are being put
> into fedora that I missed in my preview release fun ?
>  > 
>  
>  My first reply had a reference to
>  
>  https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-March/msg02148.html
>  
>  That has all the details on why the utility has been dropped. This tool 
>  was written long back and hasn't been updated to deal with a number of 
>  new technologies that makes the tool obsolete or worse causes more harm 
>    compared to any advantages left with it.
>  
>  Rahul
>   
 Ah i see i must of missed that the first time around. I am guessing i will be out
of luck with fedora 9 considering nvidia wont work and now neither will my soundcard, fun
fun.


< ---- >
lostson

http://lostsonsvault.org

[lostson]

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 05:26:03 +0530
Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  Bill Davidsen wrote:
>  > Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  >> jdow wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> Rahul, turning your words back on you feel free to explain the technical
>  >>> issues. This issue has raised enough dust it might be wise to help the
>  >>> dust settle.
>  >>
>  >> I already did that in the first mail in this thread.
>  >>
>  > Excuse all of us who don't feel that "If your sound card doesn't work 
>  > out of the box, file a bug report" isn't an explanation of the technical 
>  > issues 
>  
>  Nope because that wasn't the first mail in the thread. Pay attention 
>  next time.
>  
>  Rahul 
 Ok then Rahul then so what your saying is if your sound doesnt work your card isnt
supported and thats that.,or is it. Are there some other magical tools that are being put
into fedora that I missed in my preview release fun ?


< ---- >
lostson <lostson(a)lostsonsvault.org&gt;

[Rahul Sundaram]

Bill Davidsen wrote:
>  Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > jdow wrote:
> >
> >> Rahul, turning your words back on you feel free to explain the technical
> >> issues. This issue has raised enough dust it might be wise to help the
> >> dust settle.
> >
> > I already did that in the first mail in this thread.
> >
>  Excuse all of us who don't feel that "If your sound card doesn't work 
>  out of the box, file a bug report" isn't an explanation of the technical 
>  issues  
Nope because that wasn't the first mail in the thread. Pay attention 
next time.

Rahul

[lostson]

On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 19:33 -0400, Bill Davidsen wrote:
>  Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  > jdow wrote:
>  > 
>  >> Rahul, turning your words back on you feel free to explain the technical
>  >> issues. This issue has raised enough dust it might be wise to help the
>  >> dust settle.
>  > 
>  > I already did that in the first mail in this thread.
>  > 
>  Excuse all of us who don't feel that "If your sound card doesn't work 
>  out of the box, file a bug report" isn't an explanation of the technical 
>  issues (and seems to assume a single sound card, as well). And 
>  "system-config-soundcard isn't your answer anyway. If you have to 
>  manually configure your soundcard for any program intended for desktop 
>  usage, that is just broken" sounds like an opinion rather than an 
>  explanation.
>  
>  Neither of your first two posts seem to show ANY reason why 
>  system-config-soundcard was inadequate for the purpose. Maybe I'm 
>  missing the part where you tell people what was wrong with the way we 
>  have been doing it. And "we like something else better" is not a 
>  technical reason, since dropping a tool which people know how to use and 
>  making the default configuration choose different configurations just 
>  invites people to feel as if their time is being wasted. 
 Amen

 LostSon
>  
>  -- 
>  Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com&gt;
>     "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
>  the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
>

[Bill Davidsen]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  jdow wrote:
>  
> > Rahul, turning your words back on you feel free to explain the technical
> > issues. This issue has raised enough dust it might be wise to help the
> > dust settle.
>  
>  I already did that in the first mail in this thread.
>   
Excuse all of us who don't feel that "If your sound card doesn't work

out of the box, file a bug report" isn't an explanation of the technical 
issues (and seems to assume a single sound card, as well). And 
"system-config-soundcard isn't your answer anyway. If you have to 
manually configure your soundcard for any program intended for desktop 
usage, that is just broken" sounds like an opinion rather than an 
explanation.

Neither of your first two posts seem to show ANY reason why 
system-config-soundcard was inadequate for the purpose. Maybe I'm 
missing the part where you tell people what was wrong with the way we 
have been doing it. And "we like something else better" is not a 
technical reason, since dropping a tool which people know how to use and 
making the default configuration choose different configurations just 
invites people to feel as if their time is being wasted.

-- 
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com&gt;
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot

[Paulo Cavalcanti]

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 3:54 AM, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
wrote:

>  jdow wrote:
>
>   Rahul, turning your words back on you feel free to explain the technical
>  > issues. This issue has raised enough dust it might be wise to help the
>  > dust settle.
>  >
>
>  I already did that in the first mail in this thread.
>
>  
Hi,

I understand the issue, specially when one has USB sound cards involved.

However, I have two questions, since I also understood, following the cited
thread,
that there will be no more "sound lines" in modprobe.conf:

1) How does one pass module options to alsa?
Currently, I have this line in my modprobe.conf.

options snd-hda-intel position_fix=1 model=ref

2) If one should no longer specify the index of a sound card (for instance,
the onboard being always card 0),
in modprobe.conf, what is the appropriate way to specify a certain sound
card in a script?

Thanks.

-- 
Paulo Roma Cavalcanti
LCG - UFRJ

[Rahul Sundaram]

jdow wrote:

>  Rahul, turning your words back on you feel free to explain the
> technical
>  issues. This issue has raised enough dust it might be wise to help the
>  dust settle. 
I already did that in the first mail in this thread.

Rahul

[jdow]

From: "Rahul Sundaram" <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Sent: Monday, 2008, April 21 10:31


>  Bill Davidsen wrote:
> > Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >> Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Neither of which was capable of dealing with multiple sound 'cards' 
> >>> the last time I looked.  Which I'll admit, was not recently.
> >>
> >> Then look again. Hint: paman, paprefs
> >>
> > Translation: someone liked the new tool better, wanted everyone to use 
> > it, places zero value on user time doing QA and training on new tool.
>  
>  Translation: You like to jump to conclusion without understanding the 
>  technical issues involved. Feel free to.
>  
>  Rahul 
Rahul, turning your words back on you feel free to explain the technical
issues. This issue has raised enough dust it might be wise to help the
dust settle.

{^_^}

[Rahul Sundaram]

lostson wrote:
>   Hey All
>   I loaded the f9 pre release today and there is no system-config-soundcard 
>  where has this gone ? 
Removed. Refer

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-March/msg02148.html

If your sound card doesn't work out of the box, file a bug report.

Rahul

[Rahul Sundaram]

Bill Davidsen wrote:
>  Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > Gene Heskett wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Neither of which was capable of dealing with multiple sound 'cards' 
> >> the last time I looked.  Which I'll admit, was not recently.
> >
> > Then look again. Hint: paman, paprefs
> >
>  Translation: someone liked the new tool better, wanted everyone to use 
>  it, places zero value on user time doing QA and training on new tool. 
Translation: You like to jump to conclusion without understanding the 
technical issues involved. Feel free to.

Rahul

[Bill Davidsen]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Gene Heskett wrote:
>  
> >
> > Neither of which was capable of dealing with multiple sound 'cards' 
> > the last time I looked.  Which I'll admit, was not recently.
>  
>  Then look again. Hint: paman, paprefs
>   
Translation: someone liked the new tool better, wanted everyone to use 
it, places zero value on user time doing QA and training on new tool.

-- 
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com&gt;
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot

[Martin Marques]

Gene Heskett escribió:
>  
>  And for those of us who use the onboard sound for skype/ekiga/etc, and another 
>  GOOD pci card for everrything else, there should be a reminder to save ones 
>  modprobe.conf someplace safe, cuz I'll bet you a 12 pack f9 will screw that 
>  up royally.  One size does not fit all, Rahul.  Never will. 
12 pack? Gene you're a greedy guy. :-D

[Jim]

lostson wrote:
>   Hey All
>   I loaded the f9 pre release today and there is no system-config-soundcard 
>  where has this gone ? 
>     
Oh Oh , It falling apart already.
I got bittorrent downloading now .

[Rahul Sundaram]

Gene Heskett wrote:

>  
>  Neither of which was capable of dealing with multiple sound 'cards' the last 
>  time I looked.  Which I'll admit, was not recently. 
Then look again. Hint: paman, paprefs

Rahul

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 18 April 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 18 April 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >> lostson wrote:
> >>>  Hey All
> >>>  I loaded the f9 pre release today and there is no
> >>> system-config-soundcard where has this gone ?
> >>
> >> Removed. Refer
> >>
> >> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-March/msg02148.htm
> >>l
> >>
> >> If your sound card doesn't work out of the box, file a bug report.
> >>
> >> Rahul
> >
> > And for those of us who use the onboard sound for skype/ekiga/etc, and
> > another GOOD pci card for everrything else, there should be a reminder to
> > save ones modprobe.conf someplace safe, cuz I'll bet you a 12 pack f9 will
> > screw that up royally.  One size does not fit all, Rahul.  Never will.
>
> Read the mailing list post. system-config-soundcard isn't your answer
> anyway. If you have to manually configure your soundcard for any program
> intended for desktop usage, that is just broken. Preferences are
> configured in your desktop environment. Both GNOME and KDE has one.
>
> Rahul 
Neither of which was capable of dealing with multiple sound 'cards' the last 
time I looked.  Which I'll admit, was not recently.


-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
People love high ideals, but they got to be about 33-percent plausible.
		-- The Best of Will Rogers

[Rahul Sundaram]

Gene Heskett wrote:
>  On Friday 18 April 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > lostson wrote:
> >>  Hey All
> >>  I loaded the f9 pre release today and there is no system-config-soundcard
> >> where has this gone ?
> > Removed. Refer
> >
> > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-March/msg02148.html
> >
> > If your sound card doesn't work out of the box, file a bug report.
> >
> > Rahul
>  
>  And for those of us who use the onboard sound for skype/ekiga/etc, and another 
>  GOOD pci card for everrything else, there should be a reminder to save ones 
>  modprobe.conf someplace safe, cuz I'll bet you a 12 pack f9 will screw that 
>  up royally.  One size does not fit all, Rahul.  Never will. 
Read the mailing list post. system-config-soundcard isn't your answer 
anyway. If you have to manually configure your soundcard for any program 
intended for desktop usage, that is just broken. Preferences are 
configured in your desktop environment. Both GNOME and KDE has one.

Rahul

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 18 April 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> lostson wrote:
> >  Hey All
> >  I loaded the f9 pre release today and there is no system-config-soundcard
> > where has this gone ?
>
> Removed. Refer
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-March/msg02148.html
>
> If your sound card doesn't work out of the box, file a bug report.
>
> Rahul 
And for those of us who use the onboard sound for skype/ekiga/etc, and another 
GOOD pci card for everrything else, there should be a reminder to save ones 
modprobe.conf someplace safe, cuz I'll bet you a 12 pack f9 will screw that 
up royally.  One size does not fit all, Rahul.  Never will.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot of
different places, just write a Unix operating system.

   -- Linus Torvalds

[Rahul Sundaram]

Bill Davidsen wrote:

>  Funny, my browser thinks
> <200804181025.49438.lostson(a)lostsonsvault.org&gt; 
>  is the first mail in the thread. It isn't even yours!  
Of course it isn't. I wouldn't be asking and answering at the same time. 
  Mine was a reply as I have said before.

The first post
>  from you was <4808CFD2.1050805(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; which also
> contains no 
>  technical detail, just a link to a list of things which someone (again 
>  not you) thinks could be improved and a suggestion ("why do we need this 
>  in the default install?") that it not be run by default. 
Follow the entire thread for more details.

>  Taking out something because it isn't perfect is like shooting
> your 
>  seeing eye dog because he has a sore paw.  
Doesn't compare since as detailed in the thread, the tool causes more 
problems than it solves.

The administration tool (in alpha) did
>  not seem to want to marked the default card, and after each boot used
>
>  whatever looks like a sound card on an HDTV Wonder. Probably because the 
>  modprobe doesn't seem to set card numbers, or ??? 
Did you file a bug report?

>  When I finish evaluating ubuntu if FC9 final is out I'll try the
> process 
>  again. 
Sure. Note that the distribution doesn't ship a separate sound card 
configuration utility and have settled on pulse audio utilities 
originally shipped in Fedora 8.

Fedora has for a long time steadily moved away from distribution 
specific tools towards more cross distribution upstream projects that 
integrate with the desktop environment. This includes dropping of 
system-config-log (DE's grow their own log tools), system-config-mouse 
(legacy mouse configuration), deprecation of Kudzu (replacing it with 
HAL) and for Fedora 9, dropping system-config-soundcard (replaced by 
pulseaudio tools and other technologies like hotplug).

Rahul