OT: Annoying List Behavior....

[Ed Greshko]

OK, is anyone else seeing this and/or finding this annoying?

Getting list emails where I don't really know who is sending. The "From"
shows as

None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;  

So, it is showing up as "Fedora" in the From column of T-Bird.  The actual
header in the email are showing as

From: None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
Cc: olivares33561(a)protonmail.com

So, it seem that olivares33561 is the real poster.

-- 
Conjecture is just a conclusion based on incomplete information. It isn't a fact.

[François Patte]

Le 04/06/2018 à 16:31, Ed Greshko a écrit :
>  OK, is anyone else seeing this and/or finding this annoying?
>  
>  Getting list emails where I don't really know who is sending. The "From"
> shows as
>  
>  None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;  
>  
>  So, it is showing up as "Fedora" in the From column of T-Bird.  The actual
> header in the email are showing as
>  
>  From: None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Cc: olivares33561(a)protonmail.com 
For this message (and others), I get:

From: Ed.Greshko(a)greshko.com
Subject: OT: Annoying List Behavior...
To: users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org


-- 
François Patte
UFR de mathématiques et informatique
Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145
Université Paris Descartes
45, rue des Saints Pères
F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
Tél. [phone]
http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte

[Todd Zullinger]

Ed Greshko wrote:
>  OK, is anyone else seeing this and/or finding this annoying?
>  
>  Getting list emails where I don't really know who is sending. The "From"
> shows as
>  
>  None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;  
>  
>  So, it is showing up as "Fedora" in the From column of T-Bird.  The actual
> header in the email are showing as
>  
>  From: None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Cc: olivares33561(a)protonmail.com
>  
>  So, it seem that olivares33561 is the real poster. 
The DMARC mitigations we put in place a few months ago are
the reason you see this.  This sender doesn't have any name
in their from field, so None is all we get.

Normally if someone sending from a domain with strict DMARC
rules configured their From field as 'Name <me(a)example.com&gt;&#39;
the list DMARC mitigation would take the 'Name' part, add
'via users' and send it from the list address.

Thunderbird showing you 'Fedora' is due to the mail client
reversing the name from your local address book.  I have no
idea if you can tell Thunderbird not to do that or not.

I don't think there's much we can do about it on the list
side.

Ideally olivares33561(a)protonmail.com would configure a name
in the email address field used when posting on public
lists.  I've Cc'd olivares33561(a)protonmail.com.

-- 
Todd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It was probably drugs more than anything else that made me a
Libertarian.
    -- John Gilmore

[Mike Wright]

On 06/04/2018 08:22 AM, Todd Zullinger wrote:
>  Ed Greshko wrote:
> > OK, is anyone else seeing this and/or finding this annoying?
> >
> > Getting list emails where I don't really know who is sending. The
> "From" shows as
> >
> > None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
> >
> > So, it is showing up as "Fedora" in the From column of T-Bird.  The actual
> header in the email are showing as
> >
> > From: None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
> > Cc: olivares33561(a)protonmail.com
> >
> > So, it seem that olivares33561 is the real poster.
>  
>  The DMARC mitigations we put in place a few months ago are
>  the reason you see this.  This sender doesn't have any name
>  in their from field, so None is all we get.
>  
>  Normally if someone sending from a domain with strict DMARC
>  rules configured their From field as 'Name <me(a)example.com&gt;&#39;
>  the list DMARC mitigation would take the 'Name' part, add
>  'via users' and send it from the list address.
>  
>  Thunderbird showing you 'Fedora' is due to the mail client
>  reversing the name from your local address book.  I have no
>  idea if you can tell Thunderbird not to do that or not.
>  
>  I don't think there's much we can do about it on the list 
This looks like a good time to ask about this.  I have two addresses 
that I use on this list: one to send mail, mail to that address is 
dropped; one to receive mail, never used to send to the list.  IOW, 
whatever mail I send to this list I receive as a different user.

Some time ago my posts to fedora users started showing up in MY 
thunderbird not as the sender but as some fedora address with an arrow 
to its left.  If it's only me with this issue that is not a problem.

What I'd like to know is: what does my sender address look like to other 
recipients? is it "Mike Wright", or is it some generic Fedora address? 
What does THIS post display on your thunderbird client as the 
"Correspondent"?

Thanks to any helpers.

[Danny Horne]

On 04/06/18 16:55, Mike Wright wrote:
>  What I'd like to know is: what does my sender address look like
> to
>  other recipients? is it "Mike Wright", or is it some generic Fedora
>  address? What does THIS post display on your thunderbird client as the
>  "Correspondent"?
>
>  Thanks to any helpers.
>  _______________________________________________ 
You are Mike Wright on my Thunderbird

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 06/04/2018 12:27 PM, Danny Horne via users wrote:
>  On 04/06/18 16:55, Mike Wright wrote:
> > What I'd like to know is: what does my sender address look like to
> > other recipients? is it "Mike Wright", or is it some generic Fedora
> > address? What does THIS post display on your thunderbird client as the
> > "Correspondent"?
> >
> > Thanks to any helpers.
> > _______________________________________________
>  You are Mike Wright on my Thunderbird 
Oh, this is fun!  I use Thunderbird and run my own mail server.  I 
checked message source and for this message from you I find:

From: Danny Horne via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
Cc: Danny Horne <danny(a)trisect.uk&gt;


So something is rewriting the from, most likely the list server.

[Danny Horne]

On 04/06/18 18:56, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>  Oh, this is fun!  I use Thunderbird and run my own mail server.  I
>  checked message source and for this message from you I find:
>
>  From: Danny Horne via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Cc: Danny Horne <danny(a)trisect.uk&gt;
>
>
>  So something is rewriting the from, most likely the list server.
>
>  _______________________________________________ 
I thought all list servers did that as a matter of course (p.s. I run my
own mail server to with strict DMARC settings)

[Todd Zullinger]

Danny Horne via users wrote:
>  On 04/06/18 18:56, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > Oh, this is fun!  I use Thunderbird and run my own mail server.  I
> > checked message source and for this message from you I find:
> >
> > From: Danny Horne via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
> > Cc: Danny Horne <danny(a)trisect.uk&gt;
> >
> >
> > So something is rewriting the from, most likely the list server.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
>  
>  I thought all list servers did that as a matter of course (p.s. I run my
>  own mail server to with strict DMARC settings) 
For anyone curious, please refer to the announcement of this
change and subsequent discussion here:

   
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail].o...

In short, it's intended and expected.  If there are any
issues, those should be addressed to the list admins.

-- 
Todd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks
without knowledge, of things without parallel.
    -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

​Sent from ProtonMail, encrypted email based in Switzerland.​

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On June 4, 2018 1:19 PM, Todd Zullinger <tmz(a)pobox.com&gt; wrote:

>  ​​
>  
>  Danny Horne via users wrote:
>  
>  > On 04/06/18 18:56, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>  > 
>  > > Oh, this is fun!  I use Thunderbird and run my own mail server.  I
>  > > 
>  > > checked message source and for this message from you I find:
>  > > 
>  > > From: Danny Horne via users users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > > 
>  > > Cc: Danny Horne danny(a)trisect.uk
>  > > 
>  > > So something is rewriting the from, most likely the list server.
>  > 
>  > I thought all list servers did that as a matter of course (p.s. I run my
>  > 
>  > own mail server to with strict DMARC settings)
>  
>  For anyone curious, please refer to the announcement of this
>  
>  change and subsequent discussion here:
>  
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail].o...
>  
>  In short, it's intended and expected. If there are any
>  
>  issues, those should be addressed to the list admins.
>  
>  
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  
>  Todd
>  
>      Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks
>      without knowledge, of things without parallel.
>          -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
>      
>      _______________________________________________
>      users mailing list -- users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>      To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>      Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html
>      List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>      List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail].o...
>  
Dear all,

I am the usr @ olivares33561(a)protonmail.com.  The provider protonmail does this (none ). 
I switched from yahoo.com over the other problems.  See the other threads.  I hope there
are no more problems or complaints.

Regards,


Antonio

[Patrick Mansfield]

On Mon, Jun 04, 2018 at 08:19:40PM -0400, None via users wrote:
>  Dear all,
>  
>  I am the usr @ olivares33561(a)protonmail.com.  The provider protonmail does this (none ). 
> I switched from yahoo.com over the other problems.  See the other threads.  I hope there
> are no more problems or complaints.
>   
With the DMARC changes, your yahoo email address should now work.

I also switched from yahoo about a week before the change :-(

-- Patrick

[ja]

Evolution shows me this

From:Mike Wright <nobody(a)nospam.hostisimo.com&gt;
Reply-To:Community support for Fedora users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
To:[e-mail]
Subject:Re: OT: Annoying List Behavior....
Date:Mon, 4 Jun 2018 08:55:01 -0700 (04.06.2018 16:55:01)

John

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 4 June 2018, Todd Zullinger sent:
>  Normally if someone sending from a domain with strict DMARC
>  rules configured their From field as 'Name <me(a)example.com&gt;&#39;
>  the list DMARC mitigation would take the 'Name' part, add
>  'via users' and send it from the list address.
>  
>  Thunderbird showing you 'Fedora' is due to the mail client
>  reversing the name from your local address book.  I have no
>  idea if you can tell Thunderbird not to do that or not. 
Thunderbird has/had a "show only display name for people in my address
book."  Untick that, and it should show the whole address.  It's in the
display section, advanced sub-section.

I find that kind of thing annoying.  It's easy enough to come across
people with the same names, and it's helpful to have the full address
to quickly tell them apart.

>  I don't think there's much we can do about it on the list
>  side. 
If an email address didn't have a name portion, I would have used the
email accountname immediately left of the @ sign.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 4.16.7-100.fc26.x86_64 #1 SMP Wed May 2 21:45:56 UTC 2018 x86_64

Boilerplate:  All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
There is no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see
the messages posted to the mailing list.

The internet, your opportunity to learn from other peoples' mistakes.

[Todd Zullinger]

Tim via users wrote:
>  Allegedly, on or about 4 June 2018, Todd Zullinger sent:
> > I don't think there's much we can do about it on the list
> > side.
>  
>  If an email address didn't have a name portion, I would have used the
>  email accountname immediately left of the @ sign. 
Yeah, that might work, though I haven't looked at the
Mailman code (much) or thought about whether there are
downsides (none spring to mind and it's hard to see how
"None" is a better choice for the display name).

FWIW, that's a change which would need to be made to the
Mailman code, not something within the power of list admins.

Ideally someone will submit a patch upstream to improve the
DMARC mitigation code and the Fedora lists will pick it up
when it's released.  The mailman code is here:

    https://gitlab.com/mailman/

I believe the patch would be in the munged_headers()
function here:

    https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/blob/master/src/mailman/handlers/dmarc...

Short of a patch, filing an issue would be a good start
(assuming one hasn't already been filed -- a quick search
didn't turn one up).

-- 
Todd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All I really want for Christmas is Santa's list of Naughty Girls.

[jdow]

On 20180604 07:31, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  OK, is anyone else seeing this and/or finding this annoying?
>  
>  Getting list emails where I don't really know who is sending. The "From"
> shows as
>  
>  None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  
>  So, it is showing up as "Fedora" in the From column of T-Bird.  The actual
> header in the email are showing as
>  
>  From: None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  Cc: olivares33561(a)protonmail.com
>  
>  So, it seem that olivares33561 is the real poster. 
Check off "Correspondents" as a column head rather than "from".
{^_^}

[Ed Greshko]

On 06/05/18 08:25, jdow wrote:
>  On 20180604 07:31, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > OK, is anyone else seeing this and/or finding this annoying?
> >
> > Getting list emails where I don't really know who is sending. The
> "From" shows as
> >
> > None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
> >
> > So, it is showing up as "Fedora" in the From column of T-Bird.  The actual
> header
> > in the email are showing as
> >
> > From: None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
> > Cc: olivares33561(a)protonmail.com
> >
> > So, it seem that olivares33561 is the real poster.
>
>  Check off "Correspondents" as a column head rather than "from".
>  {^_^}
>  
Doesn't help for me.  Still shows "Fedora" under
"Correspondents".


-- 
Conjecture is just a conclusion based on incomplete information. It isn't a fact.

[jdow]

On 20180604 17:25, jdow wrote:
>  On 20180604 07:31, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > OK, is anyone else seeing this and/or finding this annoying?
> >
> > Getting list emails where I don't really know who is sending. The
> "From" shows as
> >
> > None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
> >
> > So, it is showing up as "Fedora" in the From column of T-Bird.  The actual
>
> > header in the email are showing as
> >
> > From: None via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
> > Cc: olivares33561(a)protonmail.com
> >
> > So, it seem that olivares33561 is the real poster.
>  
>  Check off "Correspondents" as a column head rather than "from".
>  {^_^} 
Hm, I see that does not always work when I use Reply-List. Ah well, it seems 'ix 
related lists work hard to screw up MUAs. It's almost funny. Every time 
something works it has to be changed to "something better" which breaks 
everything in its path. I think that's why 'ix remains a server world and not a 
user world. Whatever Ed and Tim are doing, and indeed most people on the list, 
it comes up with their names when I use Correspondents.

And for me "From" actually works on this list. Go figure. I see
"names" even for 
this message of my own to which I am replying.

{o.o}

[Ed Greshko]

On 06/05/18 09:30, jdow wrote:
>  Hm, I see that does not always work when I use Reply-List. Ah well,
> it seems 'ix
>  related lists work hard to screw up MUAs. It's almost funny. Every time something
>  works it has to be changed to "something better" which breaks everything in
> its
>  path. I think that's why 'ix remains a server world and not a user world.
> Whatever
>  Ed and Tim are doing, and indeed most people on the list, it comes up with their
>  names when I use Correspondents.
>
>  And for me "From" actually works on this list. Go figure. I see
> "names" even for
>  this message of my own to which I am replying.  

99% of the messages display just fine.
Messages with headers like...

From: Danny Horne via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; Cc: Danny Horne
<danny(a)trisect.uk&gt;

From or Correspondents display "Fedora" since, as noted in another person's
post, I
have the "Fedora List" address
in my address book and I have "Show only display name for people in my address
book"
checked.

I, personally, don't wish to un-check that preference to satisfy a mailing list.

-- 
Conjecture is just a conclusion based on incomplete information. It isn't a fact.

[jdow]

On 20180604 18:42, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  On 06/05/18 09:30, jdow wrote:
> > Hm, I see that does not always work when I use Reply-List. Ah well, it seems 'ix
> > related lists work hard to screw up MUAs. It's almost funny. Every time
> something
> > works it has to be changed to "something better" which breaks everything in
> its
> > path. I think that's why 'ix remains a server world and not a user world.
> Whatever
> > Ed and Tim are doing, and indeed most people on the list, it comes up with their
> > names when I use Correspondents.
> >
> > And for me "From" actually works on this list. Go figure. I see
> "names" even for
> > this message of my own to which I am replying.
>  
>  
>  99% of the messages display just fine.
>  Messages with headers like...
>  
>  From: Danny Horne via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; Cc: Danny Horne
>  <danny(a)trisect.uk&gt;
>  
>   From or Correspondents display "Fedora" since, as noted in another
> person's post, I
>  have the "Fedora List" address
>  in my address book and I have "Show only display name for people in my address
> book"
>  checked.
>  
>  I, personally, don't wish to un-check that preference to satisfy a mailing list.
Ah, I have that unchecked. What are the downsides to not having it checked? 
Unchecked works very well with spam sorting. It takes me seconds to check my 
sorted spam in the evening. (I have SpamAssassin rewriting the subject to 
include the spam score. I sort on the subject. So the lowest scoring spams get a 
quick look over for familiar names and reasonable subjects. Then it gets tossed 
into a long term spam storage for retraining Bayes if that's needed. Er, I 
learned long ago to mistrust automatic training.)

{^_^}

[Ed Greshko]

On 06/05/18 16:13, jdow wrote:
>  On 20180604 18:42, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > On 06/05/18 09:30, jdow wrote:
> >> Hm, I see that does not always work when I use Reply-List. Ah well, it seems
> 'ix
> >> related lists work hard to screw up MUAs. It's almost funny. Every time
> something
> >> works it has to be changed to "something better" which breaks
> everything in its
> >> path. I think that's why 'ix remains a server world and not a user world.
> Whatever
> >> Ed and Tim are doing, and indeed most people on the list, it comes up with their
> >> names when I use Correspondents.
> >>
> >> And for me "From" actually works on this list. Go figure. I see
> "names" even for
> >> this message of my own to which I am replying.
> >
> >
> > 99% of the messages display just fine.
> > Messages with headers like...
> >
> > From: Danny Horne via users <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; Cc: Danny Horne
> > <danny(a)trisect.uk&gt;
> >
> >  From or Correspondents display "Fedora" since, as noted in another
> person's post, I
> > have the "Fedora List" address
> > in my address book and I have "Show only display name for people in my address
> book"
> > checked.
> >
> > I, personally, don't wish to un-check that preference to satisfy a mailing list.
>
>  Ah, I have that unchecked. What are the downsides to not having it checked?
>  Unchecked works very well with spam sorting. It takes me seconds to check my sorted
>  spam in the evening. (I have SpamAssassin rewriting the subject to include the spam
>  score. I sort on the subject. So the lowest scoring spams get a quick look over for
>  familiar names and reasonable subjects. Then it gets tossed into a long term spam
>  storage for retraining Bayes if that's needed. Er, I learned long ago to mistrust
>  automatic training.)
>
>  
I will admit that the downside is "my" problem.  The problem being I live
in Taiwan
and have been working in Asia for many years.  So, I communicate with Chinese,
Taiwanese, and Koreans.  They have this habit of using their real names in their
emails 김병협, 楊秀茵, 石川, etc.  So, I have them in my address book with a "Display
Name" so I don't have to think so much.

Now, if that setting can be on a per-folder basis it would be OK.  But I don't think
it is....or maybe I've not looked hard enough.




-- 
Conjecture is just a conclusion based on incomplete information. It isn't a fact.