"Default" spin of Fedora

[Kevin Kofler]

The redesign mockups by Juan Camilo Prada 
(http://juankprada.livejournal.com/7682.html) raised 2 important issues for 
which this is apparently the right venue for discussion, so let me state 
them:

1. Do we really want to highlight a "default" spin on the front page, 
effectively hiding the others? While I realize the niceness of being able to 
download Fedora in one click from the fedoraproject.org front page, this 
means many users (in particular, exactly those targeted by this convenience 
measure) will miss the fact that the others even exist. We already do a very 
bad job of advertising all the possible ways of installing Fedora (e.g. 
network and HDD installs), hiding 2 of the 3 main ways to install Fedora 
(DVD, GNOME "Desktop" Live CD, KDE Live CD) will only make this worse. :-(

2. Assuming the answer to "1." is "yes", I think the installer DVD
would be a 
much better default than the GNOME-only Desktop Live spin, for several 
reasons:
* Live CDs cannot be used to upgrade existing Fedora installations (without 
reinstalling from scratch, which is often not possible without deleting user 
data), the installer DVD can. Attempts to upgrade from a live CD can even 
lead to data loss (if the user doesn't realize this fact), IIRC this has 
already happened at least once to someone on the mailing lists.
* As the name says, Desktop Live is only targeted at the desktop, whereas the 
DVD also contains some server and development packages.
* The installer DVD also contains popular desktop applications such as 
OpenOffice.org which are not included on the live images for space reasons.
* Desktop Live is GNOME-only, the installer DVD contains both GNOME and KDE. 
That's why there are 2 main live CD images, the DVD is a nice compromise, 
whereas defaulting to a GNOME-only spin really sends a message that we don't 
care about KDE. :-( As one of the KDE maintainers in Fedora, I consider it 
really unacceptable that my work gets hidden under the carpet that way, while 
a GNOME-only spin gets presented on the silver plate. There are far more 
Fedora KDE users than some of you would expect, do you really want to 
alienate that huge part of your user base? (Now, I also think the installer 
DVD should make it easier to select KDE, not just through the custom package 
selection for advanced users, but that's off topic for this list, and the 
point still stands that with the DVD, at least you _can_ select KDE.)
* Most computers these days have DVD drives.
* The installer DVD is the actual "Fedora" spin. :-) (And considering all of 
the above points, I'm definitely not suggesting changing that.)

By the way, while only partly related, there's one more thing which I think 
could really be improved: it should be made more clear that the Desktop spin 
is GNOME-based (i.e. includes GNOME as its only desktop environment). Right 
now, only the GNOME foot in the icon is a subtle hint at that and can be 
easily missed. This is a disservice to users of KDE (and XFCE, too) who may 
be misled into downloading a spin which does not contain the desktop 
environment they intend to run. Some possible solutions (while still keeping 
the "Desktop Live" name, which as I understand it is set in stone, even if I 
disagree with it for the same reasons):
* changing the heading to "Desktop Live (GNOME-based)"
* keeping just "Desktop Live" as the heading, but adding a one-sentence 
description for every spin (as in Juank's mockup) and mentioning GNOME in the 
description of "Desktop Live"
I'm open to other solutions as long as they make the word "GNOME" appear in
a 
noticeable way next to the "Desktop Live" spin.

        Kevin Kofler

[Juan Camilo Prada]

On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 20:45 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>  The redesign mockups by Juan Camilo Prada 
>  (http://juankprada.livejournal.com/7682.html) raised 2 important issues for 
>  which this is apparently the right venue for discussion, so let me state 
>  them:
>  
>  1. Do we really want to highlight a "default" spin on the front page, 
>  effectively hiding the others? While I realize the niceness of being able to 
>  download Fedora in one click from the fedoraproject.org front page, this 
>  means many users (in particular, exactly those targeted by this convenience 
>  measure) will miss the fact that the others even exist. We already do a very 
>  bad job of advertising all the possible ways of installing Fedora (e.g. 
>  network and HDD installs), hiding 2 of the 3 main ways to install Fedora 
>  (DVD, GNOME "Desktop" Live CD, KDE Live CD) will only make this worse. :-(
>   
I must accept that i have no idea which one is the main release if was
the Desktop Live media or the DVD, i just received a comment on my blog
from Mike who mentioned that Gnome the official release although i still
dont know anything about the media...

The idea is not to hide anything from the user. I realize i made a
mistake by only showing one single media and not providing information
about the other spins and that's something that's easily fixed. Also
please remember that Get-Fedora section is still there and it wont only
show the Desktop Live media...

>  2. Assuming the answer to "1." is "yes", I think
> the installer DVD would be a 
>  much better default than the GNOME-only Desktop Live spin, for several 
>  reasons:
>  * Live CDs cannot be used to upgrade existing Fedora installations (without 
>  reinstalling from scratch, which is often not possible without deleting user 
>  data), the installer DVD can. Attempts to upgrade from a live CD can even 
>  lead to data loss (if the user doesn't realize this fact), IIRC this has 
>  already happened at least once to someone on the mailing lists.
>  * As the name says, Desktop Live is only targeted at the desktop, whereas the 
>  DVD also contains some server and development packages.
>  * The installer DVD also contains popular desktop applications such as 
>  OpenOffice.org which are not included on the live images for space reasons.
>  * Desktop Live is GNOME-only, the installer DVD contains both GNOME and KDE. 
>  That's why there are 2 main live CD images, the DVD is a nice compromise, 
>  whereas defaulting to a GNOME-only spin really sends a message that we don't 
>  care about KDE. :-( As one of the KDE maintainers in Fedora, I consider it 
>  really unacceptable that my work gets hidden under the carpet that way, while 
>  a GNOME-only spin gets presented on the silver plate. There are far more 
>  Fedora KDE users than some of you would expect, do you really want to 
>  alienate that huge part of your user base? (Now, I also think the installer 
>  DVD should make it easier to select KDE, not just through the custom package 
>  selection for advanced users, but that's off topic for this list, and the 
>  point still stands that with the DVD, at least you _can_ select KDE.)
>  * Most computers these days have DVD drives.
>  * The installer DVD is the actual "Fedora" spin. :-) (And considering all of 
>  the above points, I'm definitely not suggesting changing that.)
>   

you're probably right... but then... i would suggest going for the
official release rather than the most useful one (let the ones deciding
the official release also decide if it should be the most useful one or
no)... the idea is to have one core product (either dvd or live media)
and that is not for the websites team to decide imo.


>  By the way, while only partly related, there's one more thing
> which I think 
>  could really be improved: it should be made more clear that the Desktop spin 
>  is GNOME-based (i.e. includes GNOME as its only desktop environment). Right 
>  now, only the GNOME foot in the icon is a subtle hint at that and can be 
>  easily missed. This is a disservice to users of KDE (and XFCE, too) who may 
>  be misled into downloading a spin which does not contain the desktop 
>  environment they intend to run. Some possible solutions (while still keeping 
>  the "Desktop Live" name, which as I understand it is set in stone, even if I 
>  disagree with it for the same reasons):
>  * changing the heading to "Desktop Live (GNOME-based)"
>  * keeping just "Desktop Live" as the heading, but adding a one-sentence 
>  description for every spin (as in Juank's mockup) and mentioning GNOME in the 
>  description of "Desktop Live"
>  I'm open to other solutions as long as they make the word "GNOME" appear in
> a 
>  noticeable way next to the "Desktop Live" spin. 
you are right... i'd also like to make more noticeable the fact that the
Desktop live media is actually based on gnome... 

thanks for all your comments and interest on this :)


-- 
Juan Camilo Prada <jprada(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Kevin Kofler a écrit :
>  1. Do we really want to highlight a "default" spin on the
> front page, 
>  effectively hiding the others ?
>     
I think it is *very* important to emphasize a default spin, not 
necessarily by hiding others, but to make sure casual Fedora users do 
not run away when confronted by a choice they're not ready to make.

To quote a wikipedia article I skimmed today:

|« The "Sculley Era" at Apple was characterized by market division and 
further subdivision, with a large number of models  [...] This strategy 
backfired, as it resulted in high [...] marketing costs, as well as 
market confusion. Buyers would look at similar machines in a store, each 
conceived for a particular market but usable elsewhere, and with 
comparable performance specifications, and become confused as to which 
product to buy. »

[Basil Mohamed Gohar]

On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 22:24 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:

>  Kevin Kofler a écrit :
>  > 1. Do we really want to highlight a "default" spin on the front page, 
>  > effectively hiding the others ?
>  >   
>  I think it is *very* important to emphasize a default spin, not 
>  necessarily by hiding others, but to make sure casual Fedora users do 
>  not run away when confronted by a choice they're not ready to make.
>  
>  To quote a wikipedia article I skimmed today:
>  
>  |« The "Sculley Era" at Apple was characterized by market division and 
>  further subdivision, with a large number of models  [...] This strategy 
>  backfired, as it resulted in high [...] marketing costs, as well as 
>  market confusion. Buyers would look at similar machines in a store, each 
>  conceived for a particular market but usable elsewhere, and with 
>  comparable performance specifications, and become confused as to which 
>  product to buy. »
>   
Nicolas,

This is a bit of a challenge, because it seems that the official line
for the target audience for Fedora is the "FOSS enthusiast", which might
limit how "casual" we would expect our users to actually be.  Paul
emphasized that this doesn't mean we expect someone to be a kernel
hacker, but I think the other extreme might also be excluded.

http://mmcgrath.livejournal.com/16918.html?thread=47894#t47894

I hope I am understanding this wrong, though, because I very much would
like Fedora to be something that can make someone into a FOSS
enthusiastic by making it easy for them to try it without having much
prior experience.

[Juan Camilo Prada]

On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 16:38 -0400, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote:
>  On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 22:24 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: 
>  > Kevin Kofler a écrit :
>  > > 1. Do we really want to highlight a "default" spin on the front page,
>
>  > > effectively hiding the others ?
>  > >   
>  > I think it is *very* important to emphasize a default spin, not 
>  > necessarily by hiding others, but to make sure casual Fedora users do 
>  > not run away when confronted by a choice they're not ready to make.
>  > 
>  > To quote a wikipedia article I skimmed today:
>  > 
>  > |« The "Sculley Era" at Apple was characterized by market division and 
>  > further subdivision, with a large number of models  [...] This strategy 
>  > backfired, as it resulted in high [...] marketing costs, as well as 
>  > market confusion. Buyers would look at similar machines in a store, each 
>  > conceived for a particular market but usable elsewhere, and with 
>  > comparable performance specifications, and become confused as to which 
>  > product to buy. »
>  > 
>  Nicolas,
>  
>  This is a bit of a challenge, because it seems that the official line
>  for the target audience for Fedora is the "FOSS enthusiast", which
>  might limit how "casual" we would expect our users to actually be.
>  Paul emphasized that this doesn't mean we expect someone to be a
>  kernel hacker, but I think the other extreme might also be excluded.
>  
>  http://mmcgrath.livejournal.com/16918.html?thread=47894#t47894
>  
>  I hope I am understanding this wrong, though, because I very much
>  would like Fedora to be something that can make someone into a FOSS
>  enthusiastic by making it easy for them to try it without having much
>  prior experience. 
By selecting one single media as the official one we are not excluding
anyone from using fedora... if we happen to choose the more user
friendly media (probably Desktop Live Media imo) new users will find it
very easy to use fedora, and most experienced users... well they already
know what they want so they will head to get-fedora section and download
the media :)


-- 
Juan Camilo Prada <jprada(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Basil Mohamed Gohar a écrit 
>  This is a bit of a challenge, because it seems that the official line 
>  for the target audience for Fedora is the "FOSS enthusiast", which 
>  might limit how "casual" we would expect our users to actually be.  
>  Paul emphasized that this doesn't mean we expect someone to be a 
>  kernel hacker, but I think the other extreme might also be excluded. 
So what? Rome
was not built in one day. Fedora won't be grandma-ready 
tomorrow, but there's no reason to make trying Fedora harder than it 
needs to be. Otherwise we should just kill this fluffy web stuff and 
revert to publishing some files on a raw ftp server somewhere.

We don't want to follow Ubuntu and accept proprietary blobs or old 
software versions just to appease impatient end-users. However that does 
not mean we don't want to make the distribution as streamlined as 
possible within the chosen Fedora parameters.

[Kevin Kofler]

On Wednesday 11 June 2008, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>  Kevin Kofler a écrit :
>  > 1. Do we really want to highlight a "default" spin on the front page,
>  > effectively hiding the others ?
>
>  I think it is *very* important to emphasize a default spin, not
>  necessarily by hiding others, but to make sure casual Fedora users do
>  not run away when confronted by a choice they're not ready to make. 
Uh, many people _do_ know they want KDE, hiding it from them will only make 
them believe Fedora doesn't support KDE and go look elsewhere. Have you ever 
read some of the comments at dot.kde.org on the Fedora-related articles? (The 
point I raised with the Desktop Live spin not clearly being labeled "GNOME" 
is a recurrent theme there. Making it the default one-click download and 
hiding KDE behind an extra page would be a PR disaster.)

>  To quote a wikipedia article I skimmed today:
>  |« The "Sculley Era" at Apple was characterized by market division and
>  further subdivision, with a large number of models  [...] This strategy
>  backfired, as it resulted in high [...] marketing costs, as well as
>  market confusion. Buyers would look at similar machines in a store, each
>  conceived for a particular market but usable elsewhere, and with
>  comparable performance specifications, and become confused as to which
>  product to buy. » 
The GNU/Linux world is not the Apple world, it is built around freedom of 
choice.

        Kevin Kofler

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Kevin Kofler a écrit :
>  On Wednesday 11 June 2008, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>    
> > Kevin Kofler a écrit :
> >     
> >> 1. Do we really want to highlight a "default" spin on the front page,
> >> effectively hiding the others ?
> >>       
> > I think it is *very* important to emphasize a default spin, not
> > necessarily by hiding others, but to make sure casual Fedora users do
> > not run away when confronted by a choice they're not ready to make.
> >     
>
>  Uh, many people _do_ know they want KDE, hiding it from them will only make 
>  them believe Fedora doesn't support KDE and go look elsewhere.  
Please read
what I wrote again.

[Rahul Sundaram]

Kevin Kofler wrote:
>  * Live CDs cannot be used to upgrade existing Fedora installations
> (without 
>  reinstalling from scratch, which is often not possible without deleting user 
>  data), the installer DVD can. Attempts to upgrade from a live CD can even 
>  lead to data loss (if the user doesn't realize this fact), IIRC this has 
>  already happened at least once to someone on the mailing lists. 
The answer there would be Preupgrade. I have already filed a RFE to hook 
this up with PackageKit.

>  * As the name says, Desktop Live is only targeted at the desktop,
> whereas the 
>  DVD also contains some server and development packages. 
Considering that all indications are that majority of our users are 
desktop users, I believe that is the correct choice to promote.

Rahul