RE: No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 7:32:06 AM MST you wrote:
>  [quote="JohnMH, post:4, topic:2184, full:true"]
>  If you’re deadset on using a Discorse subforum where nobody will find you,
>  would you consider bridging it to a mailing list?
>  [/quote]
>  
>  Without data or metrics about mailing list usage, it is difficult to assert
>  that Discourse is hard to discover. We do have some data on Discourse page
>  view metrics, with about ~2000 views each day and better discoverability in
>  search engines: 
 
>  ![Consolidated page views of discussion.fp.o, taken 2019 Aug.
>  21|690x182](upload://tiXc6yB5ZIut8Q9ssUeO91m4Uiu.png "Consolidated page
>  views of discussion.fp.o, taken 2019 Aug. 21")  
 
>  [quote="lbalhar, post:5, topic:2184"]
>  Do you think that a mailing list is more visible? Joining a mailing list
>  means that you already know that a mailing list (or a group) exists and you
>  have to intentionaly find its address and join it. Here, I can imagine that
>  somebody will just spot some of our discussion and join it or at least will
>  know that we are here in case they’d need us. 
 
>  Do you think I am wrong and having a subcategory here is not a good
> idea?
>  [/quote]
>  
>  @lbalhar The platform should make sense for your audience. Whether platform
>  X or platform Y makes your discussion more visible depends on who is in
>  your community and who you are trying to reach out to. Personally I think
>  the improved search engine optimization of Discourse makes it easier for
>  new people to discover conversations in Google/DuckDuckGo/et al, but this
>  is only one factor. 
 
>  It is also worth noting Fedora Infrastructure no longer supports
> mailing
>  lists: 
 
> https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/application-service-categories-and-c
>  ommunity-handoff/ 

RE: No longer supporting mailing lists:
This project literally cannot function without mailing lists. We do not 
currently have a viable alternative. See all of the issues we've had trying to 
work with Mailing List mode on Discourse. It is not a complete feature, so we 
(at least I) cannot recommend switching to it at this time.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 4:34:01 PM MST John Harris wrote:
>  On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 7:32:06 AM MST you wrote:
>  
>  > [quote="JohnMH, post:4, topic:2184, full:true"]
>  > If you’re deadset on using a Discorse subforum where nobody will find
>  > you,
>  > would you consider bridging it to a mailing list?
>  > [/quote]
>  > 
>  > Without data or metrics about mailing list usage, it is difficult to
>  > assert that Discourse is hard to discover. We do have some data on
>  > Discourse page view metrics, with about ~2000 views each day and better
>  > discoverability in search engines:
>  
>   
>  
>  > ![Consolidated page views of discussion.fp.o, taken 2019 Aug.
>  > 21|690x182](upload://tiXc6yB5ZIut8Q9ssUeO91m4Uiu.png "Consolidated page
>  > views of discussion.fp.o, taken 2019 Aug. 21") 
>  
>   
>  
>  > [quote="lbalhar, post:5, topic:2184"]
>  > Do you think that a mailing list is more visible? Joining a mailing list
>  > means that you already know that a mailing list (or a group) exists and
>  > you have to intentionaly find its address and join it. Here, I can
>  > imagine that somebody will just spot some of our discussion and join it
>  > or at least will know that we are here in case they’d need us.
>  
>   
>  
>  > Do you think I am wrong and having a subcategory here is not a good idea?
>  > [/quote]
>  > 
>  > @lbalhar The platform should make sense for your audience. Whether
>  > platform X or platform Y makes your discussion more visible depends on
>  > who is in your community and who you are trying to reach out to.
>  > Personally I think the improved search engine optimization of Discourse
>  > makes it easier for new people to discover conversations in
>  > Google/DuckDuckGo/et al, but this is only one factor.
>  
>   
>  
>  > It is also worth noting Fedora Infrastructure no longer supports mailing
>  > lists:
>  
>   
>  
>  > https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/application-service-categories-and
>  > -community-handoff/
>  
>  
>  
>  RE: No longer supporting mailing lists:
>  This project literally cannot function without mailing lists. We do not 
>  currently have a viable alternative. See all of the issues we've had trying
>  to  work with Mailing List mode on Discourse. It is not a complete
>  feature, so we (at least I) cannot recommend switching to it at this time. 
Well, this is a great example of how bad the Discourse gateway is. It wasn't 
intended as such. If emails start showing up over there from other users as 
me, this is why.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Florian Weimer]

* John Harris:

>  RE: No longer supporting mailing lists:
>  This project literally cannot function without mailing lists. We do not 
>  currently have a viable alternative. See all of the issues we've had trying to 
>  work with Mailing List mode on Discourse. It is not a complete feature, so we 
>  (at least I) cannot recommend switching to it at this time. 
Have you ever encountered the daily message limit?  It seems to be quite
low, at 100.  That alone seems to make mailing list mode useless.

Anyway, I thought this is about switching to external hosting of mailing
lists for those who need them, not banning them altogether.

Thanks,
Florian

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 6:51 AM Florian Weimer <fweimer(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  Have you ever encountered the daily message limit?  It seems to be quite
>  low, at 100.  That alone seems to make mailing list mode useless.
>
>  
The daily message limit is a site controlled parameter.  It can be changed
by the
administrator.
https://meta.discourse.org/t/daily-limits-for-outgoing-mails-per-user/41458

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 11:50:29AM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote:
>  Anyway, I thought this is about switching to external hosting of
> mailing
>  lists for those who need them, not banning them altogether. 
That is correct, while discussing investing in mailing lists the CPE team was
really clear that they do not want mailing lists to go away.
Our recommended solution is to find someone that would maintain the mailman3
stack for us.


Pierre

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Emmanuel Seyman]

* Pierre-Yves Chibon [26/08/2019 09:44] :
>  Our recommended solution is to find someone that would maintain the mailman3
>  stack for us. 
Does this have to be mailman3 or can it be a different mailing list manager?

Emmanuel

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Seyman <emmanuel(a)seyman.fr&gt; wrote:
>  * Pierre-Yves Chibon [26/08/2019 09:44] :
>  >
>  > Our recommended solution is to find someone that would maintain the mailman3
>  > stack for us.
>
>  Does this have to be mailman3 or can it be a different mailing list manager?
>  
Mailman 3 with the HyperKitty stuff is highly preferred. I've offered
to the CPE team to help with the software maintenance aspects as we
continue to self-host as well. I intend to get in touch with the RH
OSAS group to see if they could help us with our Mailman 3 stuff, as
they've gotten pretty good at managing those themselves for a bunch of
communities.


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Neal, while you're at it, can you find out what is going on with the RSS
support.  There was quite a bit of discussion about it - but that has been
going on for years now and nothing seems to be happening.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:49 AM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Seyman
> <emmanuel(a)seyman.fr&gt;
>  wrote:
>  >
>  > * Pierre-Yves Chibon [26/08/2019 09:44] :
>  > >
>  > > Our recommended solution is to find someone that would maintain the
>  mailman3
>  > > stack for us.
>  >
>  > Does this have to be mailman3 or can it be a different mailing list
>  manager?
>  >
>
>  Mailman 3 with the HyperKitty stuff is highly preferred. I've offered
>  to the CPE team to help with the software maintenance aspects as we
>  continue to self-host as well. I intend to get in touch with the RH
>  OSAS group to see if they could help us with our Mailman 3 stuff, as
>  they've gotten pretty good at managing those themselves for a bunch of
>  communities.
>
>
>  --
>  真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

>  On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 7:32:06 AM MST you wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>  
>  
>  RE: No longer supporting mailing lists:
>  This project literally cannot function without mailing lists. We do not 
>  currently have a viable alternative. See all of the issues we've had trying to 
>  work with Mailing List mode on Discourse. It is not a complete feature, so we 
>  (at least I) cannot recommend switching to it at this time. 
What issues are you referring to?  I don't believe it is reasonable to believe
everything would work exactly the same with Discourse - but close enough should be
sufficient.  There are also myriad advantages to Discourse.  Others are also looking at
this:  https://discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org/t/lets-try-to-emulate-a-mailing-l...

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Markus Larsson]

On 26 August 2019 12:56:42 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:

What issues are you referring to? I don't believe it is reasonable to
believe everything would work exactly the same with Discourse - but
close enough should be sufficient. There are also myriad advantages to
Discourse. 


Are these advantages actually documented somewhere?
This move to discourse issue seems to pop up ever so often.
People always claim that there are a tonne of advantages but there rarely are any mention
of actual advantages.

BR
Markus

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Here you go...
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Markus Larsson]

On 26 August 2019 13:25:52 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
> Here you go...
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298 
Yes, I'm aware of their marketing. What I was after was data from someone that
doesn't have a horse in the race.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

If you disagree with something that is stated, you need to in detail
explain why, not just claim it is marketing and therefore invalid.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 8:30 AM Markus Larsson <qrsbrwn(a)uidzero.se&gt; wrote:

>  On 26 August 2019 13:25:52 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>  >Here you go...
>  >https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
>
>  Yes, I'm aware of their marketing. What I was after was data from someone
>  that doesn't have a horse in the race.
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Markus Larsson]

It seems that the only thing in that link that has merit in regards to this list is that
discourse allow editing of messages that has been sent.

As for the other things I disagree with pretty much everything. I don't think email is
too hard to use, I don't think large mailinglists are a problem, I don't see any
spam here, I don't think linking to things in emails is hard etc.

Discourse has many uses but it pushes people toward a single interface where as
mailinglists let's people be much more free to choose their own interfaces.
And yes, discourse can email me when things happen, the formatting of mail does make
following the conversation much harder than a simple maillinglist.

I also thought this was discussed earlier this year and that the conclusion was that
discourse was a bad fit.

BR
M

On 26 August 2019 13:33:38 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
> If you disagree with something that is stated, you need to in detail
> explain why, not just claim it is marketing and therefore invalid.
>
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 8:30 AM Markus Larsson <qrsbrwn(a)uidzero.se&gt;
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 26 August 2019 13:25:52 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt;
> wrote:
> > >Here you go...
> > >https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
> >
> > Yes, I'm aware of their marketing. What I was after was data from
> someone
> > that doesn't have a horse in the race.
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> >
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> >

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

>  It seems that the only thing in that link that has merit in regards
> to this list is that
>  discourse allow editing of messages that has been sent.
>  
>  As for the other things I disagree with pretty much everything. I don't think email
> is
>  too hard to use, I don't think large mailinglists are a problem, I don't see any
>  spam here, I don't think linking to things in emails is hard etc.
>  
>  Discourse has many uses but it pushes people toward a single interface where as
>  mailinglists let's people be much more free to choose their own interfaces.
>  And yes, discourse can email me when things happen, the formatting of mail does make
>  following the conversation much harder than a simple maillinglist.
>  
>  I also thought this was discussed earlier this year and that the conclusion was that
>  discourse was a bad fit.
>   
I received an email from Fedora Discourse earlier this week and it looked fine.  I was
able to reply directly or press a button which opened up the web interface.  Are there
differences that I didn't notice?  Probably... would most people notice them...
probably not.  

As far as you not considering the other advantages listed as meaningful, that's your
opinion and you're welcome to it.  I simply disagree.  

As far as discourse being a bad fit, I also disagree.  Whenever change happens some people
are always resistant... but to make progress change is required and legacy items are
sometimes impacted.... some examples are KDE 3 to 4 to 5 - GNOME 2.3 to 3... Python 2.7 to
3... the list goes on.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Markus Larsson]

On 26 August 2019 14:27:53 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
> > It seems that the only thing in that link that has merit in
> regards
> to this list is that
> > discourse allow editing of messages that has been sent.
> > 
> > As for the other things I disagree with pretty much everything. I
> don't think email is
> > too hard to use, I don't think large mailinglists are a problem, I
> don't see any
> > spam here, I don't think linking to things in emails is hard etc.
> > 
> > Discourse has many uses but it pushes people toward a single
> interface where as
> > mailinglists let's people be much more free to choose their own
> interfaces.
> > And yes, discourse can email me when things happen, the formatting of
> mail does make
> > following the conversation much harder than a simple maillinglist.
> > 
> > I also thought this was discussed earlier this year and that the
> conclusion was that
> > discourse was a bad fit.
> > 
>
> I received an email from Fedora Discourse earlier this week and it
> looked fine.  I was able to reply directly or press a button which
> opened up the web interface.  Are there differences that I didn't
> notice?  Probably... would most people notice them... probably not.   
Was it a lengthy conversation where you needed context from earlier posts?
Was is easily at hand right in your email client?

> As far as you not considering the other advantages listed as
> meaningful, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it.  I simply
> disagree.   
That's exactly my point. The advantages listed are mere stated opinions. Except
editing and community moderation which are actual features.

> As far as discourse being a bad fit, I also disagree.  Whenever change
> happens some people are always resistant... but to make progress change
> is required and legacy items are sometimes impacted.... some examples
> are KDE 3 to 4 to 5 - GNOME 2.3 to 3... Python 2.7 to 3... the list
> goes on. 
Writing this off as me being hostile to change is not only wrong but also rather snarky.
Did you intend that?

Every time discourse is brought up it seems that anyone asking what will be better over
maillinglists are accused of being hostile to change, this time is not different.

>
>_______________________________________________
>devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>Fedora Code of Conduct:
>https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>List Archives:
>https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

>  On 26 August 2019 14:27:53 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox"
> <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>  
>  Was it a lengthy conversation where you needed context from earlier posts?
>  Was is easily at hand right in your email client?
>  
>  
>  That's exactly my point. The advantages listed are mere stated opinions. Except
>  editing and community moderation which are actual features.
>  
>  
>  Writing this off as me being hostile to change is not only wrong but also rather snarky.
>  Did you intend that?
>  
>  Every time discourse is brought up it seems that anyone asking what will be better over
>  maillinglists are accused of being hostile to change, this time is not different.
>   
I didn't mention you, I simply stated that there are people who are hostile and
resistant to change.  That is a fact... you only need do a simple google search every time
there is a change and some people always complain.  In fact, the recent changes to Firefox
extensions come to mind.  You had people angrily say they would ditch Fx, etc. etc. etc. 
Such tactics are IMO not constructive.

The best way to solve this is to create a duplicate discussion group on Discourse for
Development and monitor it's use.  The only way people are going to be able to decide
if it's good for them or not is to try it.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Alec Leamas]

On 26/08/2019 16:04, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  The best way to solve this is to create a duplicate discussion group on Discourse for
> Development and monitor it's use.  The only way people are going to be able to decide
> if it's good for them or not is to try it.
>  _ 

Or, perhaps Postorious/GNU Mailman.  Fedora has moved to it and seems 
happy. It offers some web-related functionality on top of a traditional 
mailing.


Cheers!

--alec

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Alec Leamas]

On 26/08/2019 16:12, Alec Leamas wrote:

oops...
>  Or, perhaps Postorious/GNU Mailman.  Fedora has moved to it and seems 
>  happy. It offers some web-related functionality on top of a 
>  traditional mailing.
>  
The evil of subscribing to both debian-devel and fedora-devel and mixing 
it up. Please disregard ;)


--alec

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Markus Larsson]

On 26 August 2019 16:04:12 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
> > On 26 August 2019 14:27:53 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox"
> <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt;
> wrote:
> > 
> > Was it a lengthy conversation where you needed context from earlier
> posts?
> > Was is easily at hand right in your email client?
> > 
> > 
> > That's exactly my point. The advantages listed are mere stated
> opinions. Except
> > editing and community moderation which are actual features.
> > 
> > 
> > Writing this off as me being hostile to change is not only wrong but
> also rather snarky.
> > Did you intend that?
> > 
> > Every time discourse is brought up it seems that anyone asking what
> will be better over
> > maillinglists are accused of being hostile to change, this time is
> not different.
> > 
>
> I didn't mention you, I simply stated that there are people who are
> hostile and resistant to change.  That is a fact... you only need do a
> simple google search every time there is a change and some people
> always complain.  In fact, the recent changes to Firefox extensions
> come to mind.  You had people angrily say they would ditch Fx, etc.
> etc. etc.  Such tactics are IMO not constructive. 
The only reason to bring it up when replying to me is that you think it applies here. So
while you explicitly did not mention me there's not very many other ways it can be
interpreted. 
> The best way to solve this is to create a duplicate discussion group on
> Discourse for Development and monitor it's use.  The only way people
> are going to be able to decide if it's good for them or not is to try
> it.   
So the best way is to sneak it in?
That is exactly how one introduces new services if one wants them to be impossible to back
away from. This will of course split the community in a way that will lead to flame war. I
think that should be avoided.

It's much better to make a dummy thread long enough so that those who wants can test
the platform before this list is fragmented.

BR
M

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

>  On 26 August 2019 16:04:12 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox"
> <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>  
>  The only reason to bring it up when replying to me is that you think it applies here. So
>  while you explicitly did not mention me there's not very many other ways it can be
>  interpreted. 
>  
>  So the best way is to sneak it in?
>  That is exactly how one introduces new services if one wants them to be impossible to
> back
>  away from. This will of course split the community in a way that will lead to flame war.
> I
>  think that should be avoided.
>  
>  It's much better to make a dummy thread long enough so that those who wants can test
>  the platform before this list is fragmented.
>   
Sounds to me like you're projecting.  Relax.  No one is talking about
"sneaking" or "flame wars" except you.   Allowing people to try it out
in a real environment will allow them to vote with their participation.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Markus Larsson]

On 26 August 2019 17:28:03 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
> > On 26 August 2019 16:04:12 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox"
> <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt;
> wrote:
> > 
> > The only reason to bring it up when replying to me is that you think
> it applies here. So
> > while you explicitly did not mention me there's not very many other
> ways it can be
> > interpreted. 
> > 
> > So the best way is to sneak it in?
> > That is exactly how one introduces new services if one wants them to
> be impossible to back
> > away from. This will of course split the community in a way that will
> lead to flame war. I
> > think that should be avoided.
> > 
> > It's much better to make a dummy thread long enough so that those who
> wants can test
> > the platform before this list is fragmented.
> > 
> Sounds to me like you're projecting.  Relax.  No one is talking about
> "sneaking" or "flame wars" except you.   Allowing people to try it
> out
> in a real environment will allow them to vote with their participation.
>   
Please explain exactly what I am projecting.
As for the relax part, I suggest you read my emails in a calmer tone. You will find that
how you interpret my messages will be greatly different.

BR
M

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Monday, August 26, 2019 8:15:07 AM MST Markus Larsson wrote:
>  On 26 August 2019 16:04:12 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox"
> <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>  
>  >> On 26 August 2019 14:27:53 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox"
> <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt;
>  >
>  >wrote:
>  >
>  >> 
>  >> Was it a lengthy conversation where you needed context from earlier
>  >
>  >posts?
>  >
>  >> Was is easily at hand right in your email client?
>  >> 
>  >> 
>  >> That's exactly my point. The advantages listed are mere stated
>  >
>  >opinions. Except
>  >
>  >> editing and community moderation which are actual features.
>  >> 
>  >> 
>  >> Writing this off as me being hostile to change is not only wrong but
>  >
>  >also rather snarky.
>  >
>  >> Did you intend that?
>  >> 
>  >> Every time discourse is brought up it seems that anyone asking what
>  >
>  >will be better over
>  >
>  >> maillinglists are accused of being hostile to change, this time is
>  >
>  >not different.
>  >
>  >> 
>  >
>  >
>  >I didn't mention you, I simply stated that there are people who are
>  >hostile and resistant to change.  That is a fact... you only need do a
>  >simple google search every time there is a change and some people
>  >always complain.  In fact, the recent changes to Firefox extensions
>  >come to mind.  You had people angrily say they would ditch Fx, etc.
>  >etc. etc.  Such tactics are IMO not constructive.
>  
>  
>  The only reason to bring it up when replying to me is that you think it
>  applies here. So while you explicitly did not mention me there's not very
>  many other ways it can be interpreted. 
>  >
>  >The best way to solve this is to create a duplicate discussion group on
>  >Discourse for Development and monitor it's use.  The only way people
>  >are going to be able to decide if it's good for them or not is to try
>  >it.  
>  
>  
>  So the best way is to sneak it in?
>  That is exactly how one introduces new services if one wants them to be
>  impossible to back away from. This will of course split the community in a
>  way that will lead to flame war. I think that should be avoided. 
 
>  It's much better to make a dummy thread long enough so that those
> who wants
>  can test the platform before this list is fragmented. 
 
>  BR
>  M 
The problem is that, whenever we "try it", whoever is leading that movement to 
try something is generally the one that winds up making the decisions, which 
is what happened with CommOps. CommOps moved to Discourse, despite the myriad 
of issues listed during both our weekly (at the time) meetings and on the 
Discourse list itself.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Monday, August 26, 2019 5:27:53 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > It seems that the only thing in that link that has merit in
> regards to
>  > this list is that discourse allow editing of messages that has been
>  > sent.
>  > 
>  > As for the other things I disagree with pretty much everything. I don't
>  > think email is too hard to use, I don't think large mailinglists are a
>  > problem, I don't see any spam here, I don't think linking to things in
>  > emails is hard etc. 
>  > Discourse has many uses but it pushes people toward a single interface
>  > where as mailinglists let's people be much more free to choose their own
>  > interfaces. And yes, discourse can email me when things happen, the
>  > formatting of mail does make following the conversation much harder than
>  > a simple maillinglist. 
>  > I also thought this was discussed earlier this year and that the
>  > conclusion was that discourse was a bad fit.
>  > 
>  
>  
>  I received an email from Fedora Discourse earlier this week and it looked
>  fine.  I was able to reply directly or press a button which opened up the
>  web interface.  Are there differences that I didn't notice?  Probably...
>  would most people notice them... probably not.   
 
>  As far as you not considering the other advantages listed as
> meaningful,
>  that's your opinion and you're welcome to it.  I simply disagree.   
 
>  As far as discourse being a bad fit, I also disagree.  Whenever
> change
>  happens some people are always resistant... but to make progress change is
>  required and legacy items are sometimes impacted.... some examples are KDE
>  3 to 4 to 5 - GNOME 2.3 to 3... Python 2.7 to 3... the list goes on. 
 
Higher number does not inherently mean better. In this case, it's not even 
comparable. Discourse is not Email 2.0. Email is still email.

Which reminds me, another issue with Fedora's Discourse:
In emails, you can rarely figure out who people actually are because it often 
shows just a first name, and many of us, myself included, have fairly common 
first names. All messages show as being "From" Discourse.

The web UI is not better, in this case.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Monday, August 26, 2019 4:54:09 AM MST Markus Larsson wrote:
>  It seems that the only thing in that link that has merit in regards
> to this
>  list is that discourse allow editing of messages that has been sent.
>  
>  As for the other things I disagree with pretty much everything. I don't
>  think email is too hard to use, I don't think large mailinglists are a
>  problem, I don't see any spam here, I don't think linking to things in
>  emails is hard etc.
>  
>  Discourse has many uses but it pushes people toward a single interface where
>  as mailinglists let's people be much more free to choose their own
>  interfaces. And yes, discourse can email me when things happen, the
>  formatting of mail does make following the conversation much harder than a
>  simple maillinglist.
>  
>  I also thought this was discussed earlier this year and that the conclusion
>  was that discourse was a bad fit.
>  
>  BR
>  M
>  
>  On 26 August 2019 13:33:38 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>  >If you disagree with something that is stated, you need to in detail
>  >explain why, not just claim it is marketing and therefore invalid. 
Consider also that

1) You can't forward or CC on an email reply to Discourse, or you're opening 
up your account so that anyone can reply as you.

2) Its formatting is completely broken, and edited messages don't get sent out 
to the "mailing list mode" subscribers.

3) You can't x-post a message

4) You can't easily create a thread based on another thread

5) It doesn't send out more than a set number of emails a day, regardless of 
what goes through.

All this, among a few other things we addressed when the CommOps folks were 
moving to Discourse.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski]

On Tuesday, 27 August 2019 at 03:38, John Harris wrote:
>  On Monday, August 26, 2019 4:54:09 AM MST Markus Larsson wrote:
>  > It seems that the only thing in that link that has merit in regards to this
>  > list is that discourse allow editing of messages that has been sent. 
Which I'd consider a misfeature.

>  > As for the other things I disagree with pretty much everything.
> I don't
>  > think email is too hard to use, I don't think large mailinglists are a
>  > problem, I don't see any spam here, I don't think linking to things in
>  > emails is hard etc.
>  > 
>  > Discourse has many uses but it pushes people toward a single interface where
>  > as mailinglists let's people be much more free to choose their own
>  > interfaces. And yes, discourse can email me when things happen, the
>  > formatting of mail does make following the conversation much harder than a
>  > simple maillinglist. 
[...]

Agreed.

>  > On 26 August 2019 13:33:38 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox"
> <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>  > >If you disagree with something that is stated, you need to in detail
>  > >explain why, not just claim it is marketing and therefore invalid.
>  
>  Consider also that
>  
>  1) You can't forward or CC on an email reply to Discourse, or you're opening 
>  up your account so that anyone can reply as you.
>  
>  2) Its formatting is completely broken, and edited messages don't get sent out 
>  to the "mailing list mode" subscribers.
>  
>  3) You can't x-post a message
>  
>  4) You can't easily create a thread based on another thread
>  
>  5) It doesn't send out more than a set number of emails a day, regardless of 
>  what goes through.
>  
>  All this, among a few other things we addressed when the CommOps folks were 
>  moving to Discourse. 
6) You can't reply to messages older than 90 days via e-mail. You'll get
a bounce.

Regards,
Dominik
-- 
Fedora   https://getfedora.org  |  RPM Fusion  http://rpmfusion.org
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and
oppression to develop psychic muscles.
        -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Monday, August 26, 2019 4:25:52 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  Here you go...
>  https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298 
This was clearly written by somebody who has an agenda. Just look at the last 
sentence in the opening paragraph!

Other than that, I'll address them subheading at a time:

Links:
You can just send To multiple people or lists, or CC/BCC. Yeah.

Lower bar to entry:
This is definitely an opinion, and I'd argue that email has a lower bar to 
entry. You can just use gmail if you want, and some people do. You can also 
whitelist company accounts with mailing lists, not that it applies to the 
Fedora project.

Moderation controls:
This very list employs spam control and controls "bad behavior" with 
moderation controls.

Reduce generic comments:
This sounds like an argument for those annoying emoji response things. I have 
to say that I disagree with this claim, agreement is usually not noteworthy, 
at least on this list, unless it is accompanied by supporting statements.

Editing:
You can always just send another email to correct whatever went wrong, and it 
actually makes it through to the recipients, instead of just getting 
overwritten on some web UI.

Regardless, not being able to edit what was said is also a pro, in my opinion, 
as it prevents people from posting something, getting responses, and then 
changing it after the fact.

Regulate the firehose:
I could not disagree with this any more. Whoever wrote this just doesn't 
understand how mailing lists work.

Search friendly archive that prevents repetition:
Most email clients have a search function. So does the web UI to our mailing 
lists.

On-site:
I don't think this applies to the Fedora use case, as that's not an issue 
here.

"World wide web":
I fail to see why this point is even present, but we've got that too.

"Discourse can be used as a mailing list":
"Yes", however its actual functionality leaves much to be desired.

Also, under "Mailing list pros":
I have no idea why "Works well when *everyone needs to see everything*" is 
there. That makes absolutely no sense. Mailing lists can have access controls 
too, this very list does, though it's very basic.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Sam Varshavchik]

Markus Larsson writes:

>  « HTML content follows »
>
>
>  On 26 August 2019 12:56:42 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>
>  What issues are you referring to? I don't believe it is reasonable to
>  believe everything would work exactly the same with Discourse - but
>  close enough should be sufficient. There are also myriad advantages to
>  Discourse.
>
>
>  Are these advantages actually documented somewhere?
>  This move to discourse issue seems to pop up ever so often.
>  People always claim that there are a tonne of advantages but there rarely are  
>  any mention of actual advantages. 
I have all my mail sitting right here. I am subscribed to a bunch of mailing  
list. They all end up in my mailbox, which makes it convenient for me,  
whenever I get around to it, to go through my mailing lists, and catch up on  
the latest goings on, here and there.

The mail is sorted the way I want to, organized in my folders according to  
my preferences.

There's only one place I need to go to catch up on all discussions, both on  
this list, and others.

To read all my mailing lists, I do exactly the same thing: open each folder,  
in turn, quickly browse through the subjects, read what I can find  
interesting, delete the rest, then move on to the next mailing. Quick.  
Convennient.

If I were to keep track of all the different web sites, and have to keep  
track of all the bookmarks somewhere, and learn how to use all the different  
web software out there, it would take me five to ten times as long to do the  
same thing. I'll probably spend more time browsing through each day's  
activity (assuming that each web discussion forum even offers the laughably  
simple feature of showing me only new messages that I haven't seen before)  
waiting for each page to load, then actually reading it.

I wouldn't even bother.

I'll just stick to mailing lists.

If this one goes away, that's very unfortunate. But I'll still have plenty  
of other mailing lists, to pass away the time with.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Kevin Kofler]

Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  What issues are you referring to?  I don't believe it is
> reasonable to
>  believe everything would work exactly the same with Discourse - but close
>  enough should be sufficient.  There are also myriad advantages to
>  Discourse.  Others are also looking at this: 
>  https://discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org/t/lets-try-to-emulate-a-mailing-l... 
But Discourse is missing an NNTP gateway, which makes it highly impractical 
to use. There is an e-mail mode, which is (as already pointed out by others) 
in several ways inferior to a real mailing list, but no NNTP mode.

I can browse this mailing list and post to it by subscribing 
gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel from news.gmane.org (default NNTP port 119, 
TLS encryption is supported with STARTTLS on the same port) with my favorite 
NNTP client (KNode). No spam in my mailbox, no annoying web interface, but a 
protocol and a client designed for discussion.

As long as Discourse does not either offer its own NNTP gateway or gets 
Gmane gatewaying set up (which may require changes to its "mailing list 
mode" so that Gmane's scripts can work with it, and I also don't know whom 
to contact to get new lists added to Gmane, its current owners are not 
communicating well), it will always be painful to use.

        Kevin Kofler

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

I read all the comments and my response is this...
First of all, there is no limit to the amount of emails that discourse will
send out.  That is a site parameter, and whomever supports it for Fedora
needs to change it:

https://meta.discourse.org/t/daily-limits-for-outgoing-mails-per-user/41458

If the requirement is that discourse completely replicate 100% the
functionality of mailing lists, that is unreasonable and isn't going to
happen.  As I mentioned earlier there are several groups working on this or
have done migration from mailing lists to discourse:

https://discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org/t/lets-try-to-emulate-a-mailing-l...
https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-mailing-lists-majordomo-or-othe...

You can find more examples with a web search.

A key comment was:  "Our site is still quite busy, although some people are
still grumbling about the change, 8 months later. The die-hard email users
are still able to participate, which came as a bit of a pleasant shock to
them. I think they were fully expecting that once we moved to a modern
platform, they’d be forced to use a web interface."

Personally, I don't like my mailbox filled up with mailing list postings.
I prefer to uses the discourse rss interface to scan for topics and then go
directly to it to respond.  Instead of writing a "me too" email, I can
simply click a like button to show I'm in agreement.  It's easier to see
the full context of a thread.  With the current situation I have to go scan
the archives. I like to use the mobile app to read and reply from my
phone.  For every item mentioned about discourse doesn't do A, B, C with
mailing lists I can counter with an item that email lists cannot do.  The
fact is that for the vast majority of people, the discourse mailing list
functionality is good enough - and as time goes on it continues to improve
- but again, it's not reasonable to expect or demand 100%.  IMO the pros
outweigh the cons.

The top of this email thread is:  No longer supporting mailing lists
and my understanding is that Fedora is searching for people to take over
support.  Seems to me that is a good time to consider switching to
discourse.  From reading experiences of people who did the migration, it's
easier to support.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Markus Larsson]

On 27 August 2019 14:23:48 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
> I read all the comments and my response is this...
> First of all, there is no limit to the amount of emails that discourse
> will
> send out.  That is a site parameter, and whomever supports it for
> Fedora
> needs to change it:
>
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/daily-limits-for-outgoing-mails-per-user/41458
>
> If the requirement is that discourse completely replicate 100% the
> functionality of mailing lists, that is unreasonable and isn't going to
> happen.  As I mentioned earlier there are several groups working on
> this or
> have done migration from mailing lists to discourse:
>
> https://discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org/t/lets-try-to-emulate-a-mailing-l...
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-mailing-lists-majordomo-or-othe...
>
> You can find more examples with a web search.
>
> A key comment was:  "Our site is still quite busy, although some people
> are
> still grumbling about the change, 8 months later. The die-hard email
> users
> are still able to participate, which came as a bit of a pleasant shock
> to
> them. I think they were fully expecting that once we moved to a modern
> platform, they’d be forced to use a web interface."
>
> Personally, I don't like my mailbox filled up with mailing list
> postings.
> I prefer to uses the discourse rss interface to scan for topics and
> then go
> directly to it to respond.  Instead of writing a "me too" email, I can
> simply click a like button to show I'm in agreement.  It's easier to
> see
> the full context of a thread.  With the current situation I have to go
> scan
> the archives. I like to use the mobile app to read and reply from my
> phone.  For every item mentioned about discourse doesn't do A, B, C
> with
> mailing lists I can counter with an item that email lists cannot do. 
> The
> fact is that for the vast majority of people, the discourse mailing
> list
> functionality is good enough - and as time goes on it continues to
> improve
> - but again, it's not reasonable to expect or demand 100%.  IMO the
> pros
> outweigh the cons.
>
> The top of this email thread is:  No longer supporting mailing lists
> and my understanding is that Fedora is searching for people to take
> over
> support.  Seems to me that is a good time to consider switching to
> discourse.  From reading experiences of people who did the migration,
> it's
> easier to support. 
But the way to go about a change isn't to start the change and see what happens. The
proper way is to look at the alternatives at hand and what the implications of the
respective solutions are.
That means a wee bit more analysis than linking to a marketing post by one of the
providers of solutions.

I understand that you like discourse, you have made that clear.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:23:48 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  I read all the comments and my response is this...
>  First of all, there is no limit to the amount of emails that discourse will
>  send out.  That is a site parameter, and whomever supports it for Fedora
>  needs to change it:
>  
>  https://meta.discourse.org/t/daily-limits-for-outgoing-mails-per-user/41458
>  
>  If the requirement is that discourse completely replicate 100% the
>  functionality of mailing lists, that is unreasonable and isn't going to
>  happen.  As I mentioned earlier there are several groups working on this or
>  have done migration from mailing lists to discourse:
>  
>  https://discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org/t/lets-try-to-emulate-a-mailing-list
>  /1003
>  https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-mailing-lists-majordomo-or-otherw
>  ise/65769
>  
>  You can find more examples with a web search.
>  
>  A key comment was:  "Our site is still quite busy, although some people are
>  still grumbling about the change, 8 months later. The die-hard email users
>  are still able to participate, which came as a bit of a pleasant shock to
>  them. I think they were fully expecting that once we moved to a modern
>  platform, they’d be forced to use a web interface."
>  
>  Personally, I don't like my mailbox filled up with mailing list postings.
>  I prefer to uses the discourse rss interface to scan for topics and then go
>  directly to it to respond.  Instead of writing a "me too" email, I can
>  simply click a like button to show I'm in agreement.  It's easier to see
>  the full context of a thread.  With the current situation I have to go scan
>  the archives. I like to use the mobile app to read and reply from my
>  phone.  For every item mentioned about discourse doesn't do A, B, C with
>  mailing lists I can counter with an item that email lists cannot do.  The
>  fact is that for the vast majority of people, the discourse mailing list
>  functionality is good enough - and as time goes on it continues to improve
>  - but again, it's not reasonable to expect or demand 100%.  IMO the pros
>  outweigh the cons.
>  
>  The top of this email thread is:  No longer supporting mailing lists
>  and my understanding is that Fedora is searching for people to take over
>  support.  Seems to me that is a good time to consider switching to
>  discourse.  From reading experiences of people who did the migration, it's
>  easier to support. 
If you would like, I could assist you in setting up your email client, and in 
filtering your mailing lists into folders. You can also access your email on 
your phone, if you wish to do so.

Other than things like emoji responses, I can tell you how to do just about 
anything that you can on Discourse using Email.

It's not that one is modern and the other is not.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Thanks for the offer, but no thanks.  My point is I don't like using email
for forum discussions.  The only reason I'm using it here is that I'm being
forced to because "Development Discussions", "KDE Discussions" and
"Packaging Discussions" aren't available on the Discourse Fedora instance.
As I mentioned before, I don't like the idea of forum discussions clogging
up my email.  I like accessing Fedora Discussions on my phone using the
Discourse client.  It's much easier to read threads for me and understand
prior elements of the discussion on Discourse.  Using mail, I have to
access the archives to read the full thread.

Seems to me to be a bit weird that Fedora has some discussions on Discourse
but refuses to allow other discussions and mandate those be done via a
mailing list - especially when Discourse allows a mailing list option.

I understand there isn't going to be 100% feature parity, but it should be
good enough - and if it isn't we should be working with the Discourse
people to improve it rather than just using it as an excuse to not moving
forward.



On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:32 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:23:48 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > I read all the comments and my response is this...
>  > First of all, there is no limit to the amount of emails that discourse
>  will
>  > send out.  That is a site parameter, and whomever supports it for Fedora
>  > needs to change it:
>  >
>  >
>  https://meta.discourse.org/t/daily-limits-for-outgoing-mails-per-user/41458
>  >
>  > If the requirement is that discourse completely replicate 100% the
>  > functionality of mailing lists, that is unreasonable and isn't going to
>  > happen.  As I mentioned earlier there are several groups working on this
>  or
>  > have done migration from mailing lists to discourse:
>  >
>  >
>  https://discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org/t/lets-try-to-emulate-a-mailing-list
>  > /1003
>  >
>  https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-mailing-lists-majordomo-or-otherw
>  > ise/65769
>  >
>  > You can find more examples with a web search.
>  >
>  > A key comment was:  "Our site is still quite busy, although some people
>  are
>  > still grumbling about the change, 8 months later. The die-hard email
>  users
>  > are still able to participate, which came as a bit of a pleasant shock to
>  > them. I think they were fully expecting that once we moved to a modern
>  > platform, they’d be forced to use a web interface."
>  >
>  > Personally, I don't like my mailbox filled up with mailing list postings.
>  > I prefer to uses the discourse rss interface to scan for topics and then
>  go
>  > directly to it to respond.  Instead of writing a "me too" email, I can
>  > simply click a like button to show I'm in agreement.  It's easier to see
>  > the full context of a thread.  With the current situation I have to go
>  scan
>  > the archives. I like to use the mobile app to read and reply from my
>  > phone.  For every item mentioned about discourse doesn't do A, B, C with
>  > mailing lists I can counter with an item that email lists cannot do.  The
>  > fact is that for the vast majority of people, the discourse mailing list
>  > functionality is good enough - and as time goes on it continues to
>  improve
>  > - but again, it's not reasonable to expect or demand 100%.  IMO the pros
>  > outweigh the cons.
>  >
>  > The top of this email thread is:  No longer supporting mailing lists
>  > and my understanding is that Fedora is searching for people to take over
>  > support.  Seems to me that is a good time to consider switching to
>  > discourse.  From reading experiences of people who did the migration,
>  it's
>  > easier to support.
>
>  If you would like, I could assist you in setting up your email client, and
>  in
>  filtering your mailing lists into folders. You can also access your email
>  on
>  your phone, if you wish to do so.
>
>  Other than things like emoji responses, I can tell you how to do just
>  about
>  anything that you can on Discourse using Email.
>
>  It's not that one is modern and the other is not.
>
>  --
>  John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
>  Splentity
>  https://splentity.com/
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Markus Larsson]

On 27 August 2019 16:29:28 CEST, "Gerald B. Cox" <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
> Thanks for the offer, but no thanks.  My point is I don't like
> using
> email
> for forum discussions.  The only reason I'm using it here is that I'm
> being
> forced to because "Development Discussions", "KDE Discussions" and
> "Packaging Discussions" aren't available on the Discourse Fedora
> instance.
> As I mentioned before, I don't like the idea of forum discussions
> clogging
> up my email.  I like accessing Fedora Discussions on my phone using the
> Discourse client.  It's much easier to read threads for me and
> understand
> prior elements of the discussion on Discourse.  Using mail, I have to
> access the archives to read the full thread. 
So everyone should stop doing what works for the because you don't like it?

> Seems to me to be a bit weird that Fedora has some discussions on
> Discourse
> but refuses to allow other discussions and mandate those be done via a
> mailing list - especially when Discourse allows a mailing list option. 
Please try to understand that the mailing list option isn't an option because it is
not good enough.
Meanwhile what is left is the webUI. So we should all have to use that UI because that is
what works best for you?
Is that the central point of your argument?

> I understand there isn't going to be 100% feature parity, but it should
> be
> good enough - and if it isn't we should be working with the Discourse
> people to improve it rather than just using it as an excuse to not
> moving
> forward. 
Before moving forward it is prudent to ensure that at least most of the group agree what
"forward" is.
It seems not everyone agrees that the direction you have chosen is actually forward.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>   Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full thread.
This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either save the 
mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email with mail
from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a
misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail - and
I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse.  Why is that
so hard to understand?

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  >  Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full thread.
>
>  This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either save the
>  mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.
>
>  --
>  John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
>  Splentity
>  https://splentity.com/
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Louis Lagendijk]

On Tue, 2019-08-27 at 12:00 -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email
> with
>  mail from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a
>  misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail
>  - and I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse. 
>  Why is that so hard to understand?   
>  
>  On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>  > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > 
>  > >  Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full
>  > thread.
>  > 
>  > 
>  > 
>  > This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either
>  > save the 
>  > 
>  > mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.
>  > 
>  > 
>  >  
Different people have different work flows, you like to go to
Discourse, others prefer mail/nntp. For a lot of people (including
myself) the lack of threading is a show stopper for their workflow. 
The mail interface in Discourse is...lacking a lot of features for a
lot of people. Your comment "why is that so hard to understand" applies
both ways..../Louis

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Here is an interesting discussion on "threaded discussions":
https://meta.discourse.org/t/threaded-discussion-is-ultimately-too-comple...

I personally don't like them.  As the threads increase the discussion
becomes hard to follow...

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:20 PM Louis Lagendijk <louis(a)fazant.net&gt; wrote:

>  On Tue, 2019-08-27 at 12:00 -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>
>  Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email with mail
>  from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a
>  misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail - and
>  I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse.  Why is that
>  so hard to understand?
>
>  On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt; wrote:
>
>  On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  >  Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full thread.
>
>  This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either save the
>  mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.
>
>  Different people have different work flows, you like to go to Discourse, others prefer
> mail/nntp. For a lot of people (including myself) the lack of threading is a show stopper
> for their workflow.
>
>
>  The mail interface in Discourse is...lacking a lot of features for a lot of people. Your
> comment "why is that so hard to understand" applies both ways....
>
>  /Louis
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Dan Book]

This conversation is pretty pointless. You are never going to convince
other people to like Discourse more than mailing lists, and they are never
going to convince you the other direction.

-Dan

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:35 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:

>  Here is an interesting discussion on "threaded
> discussions":
>
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/threaded-discussion-is-ultimately-too-comple...
>
>  I personally don't like them.  As the threads increase the discussion
>  becomes hard to follow...
>
>  On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:20 PM Louis Lagendijk <louis(a)fazant.net&gt; wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2019-08-27 at 12:00 -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> >
> > Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email with mail
> > from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a
> > misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail - and
> > I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse.  Why is that
> > so hard to understand?
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
> > wrote:
> >
> > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> > >  Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full thread.
> >
> > This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either save the
> > mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.
> >
> > Different people have different work flows, you like to go to Discourse, others
> prefer mail/nntp. For a lot of people (including myself) the lack of threading is a show
> stopper for their workflow.
> >
> >
> > The mail interface in Discourse is...lacking a lot of features for a lot of people.
> Your comment "why is that so hard to understand" applies both ways....
> >
> > /Louis
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> >
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Markus Larsson]

I'm entirely fine with using discourse WHEN it has a functioning mailing list mode. 
I am not against discourse as such, I am against making changes that forces everyone to
consume the information in exactly the same way.

Ensure that mailing list mode works in a way that the ones who needs that feature approves
of and I will switch sides in an instant.
I will not applaud a change where I see no benefit and where it impacts others.

Br
M

On 27 August 2019 17:44:16 CEST, Dan Book <grinnz(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> This conversation is pretty pointless. You are never going to
> convince
> other people to like Discourse more than mailing lists, and they are
> never
> going to convince you the other direction.
>
> -Dan
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:35 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>
> > Here is an interesting discussion on "threaded discussions":
> >
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/threaded-discussion-is-ultimately-too-comple...
> >
> > I personally don't like them.  As the threads increase the discussion
> > becomes hard to follow...
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:20 PM Louis Lagendijk <louis(a)fazant.net&gt;
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 2019-08-27 at 12:00 -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> >>
> >> Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email with
> mail
> >> from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a
> >> misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my
> mail - and
> >> I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse.  Why
> is that
> >> so hard to understand?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> >> >  Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full
> thread.
> >>
> >> This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either save
> the
> >> mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.
> >>
> >> Different people have different work flows, you like to go to
> Discourse, others prefer mail/nntp. For a lot of people (including
> myself) the lack of threading is a show stopper for their workflow.
> >>
> >>
> >> The mail interface in Discourse is...lacking a lot of features for a
> lot of people. Your comment "why is that so hard to understand" applies
> both ways....
> >>
> >> /Louis
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> >> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> >> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> >> List Guidelines:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> >> List Archives:
> >>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> >
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> >

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Yeah, I completely agree - but that wasn't my intention to try to
convince.  I would like additional topics that mirror those in the mailing
lists setup on discourse.  That way people can use whichever they want.
The one that people prefer will win.  Simple as that.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:45 PM Dan Book <grinnz(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  This conversation is pretty pointless. You are never going to
> convince
>  other people to like Discourse more than mailing lists, and they are never
>  going to convince you the other direction.
>
>  -Dan
>
>  On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:35 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>
> > Here is an interesting discussion on "threaded discussions":
> >
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/threaded-discussion-is-ultimately-too-comple...
> >
> > I personally don't like them.  As the threads increase the discussion
> > becomes hard to follow...
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:20 PM Louis Lagendijk <louis(a)fazant.net&gt;
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 2019-08-27 at 12:00 -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> >>
> >> Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email with mail
> >> from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a
> >> misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail - and
> >> I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse.  Why is that
> >> so hard to understand?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
> >> >  Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full thread.
> >>
> >> This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either save the
> >> mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.
> >>
> >> Different people have different work flows, you like to go to Discourse, others
> prefer mail/nntp. For a lot of people (including myself) the lack of threading is a show
> stopper for their workflow.
> >>
> >>
> >> The mail interface in Discourse is...lacking a lot of features for a lot of
> people. Your comment "why is that so hard to understand" applies both ways....
> >>
> >> /Louis
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> >> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> >> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> >> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> >> List Archives:
> >> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> >
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 9:15:16 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  Yeah, I completely agree - but that wasn't my intention to try
> to
>  convince.  I would like additional topics that mirror those in the mailing
>  lists setup on discourse.  That way people can use whichever they want.
>  The one that people prefer will win.  Simple as that.
>  
>  On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:45 PM Dan Book <grinnz(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > This conversation is pretty pointless. You are never going to convince
>  > other people to like Discourse more than mailing lists, and they are never
>  > going to convince you the other direction.
>  > 
>  > -Dan
>  > 
>  > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:35 AM Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>  >> Here is an interesting discussion on "threaded discussions":
>  >> https://meta.discourse.org/t/threaded-discussion-is-ultimately-too-comple
>  >> x-to-survive-on-the-public-internet/63172
>  >> 
>  >> I personally don't like them.  As the threads increase the discussion
>  >> becomes hard to follow...
>  >> 
>  >> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:20 PM Louis Lagendijk <louis(a)fazant.net&gt;
>  >> 
>  >> wrote:
>  >>> On Tue, 2019-08-27 at 12:00 -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  >>> 
>  >>> Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email with mail
>  >>> from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not
> a
>  >>> misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail -
>  >>> and
>  >>> I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse.  Why is
>  >>> that
>  >>> so hard to understand?
>  >>> 
>  >>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:47 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
>  >>> wrote:
>  >>> 
>  >>> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  >>> >  Using mail, I have to access the archives to read the full thread.
>  >>> 
>  >>> This is just due to your configuration. You could easily either save the
>  >>> mailing list to your mailbox, or use an NNTP gateway.
>  >>> 
>  >>> Different people have different work flows, you like to go to Discourse,
>  >>> others prefer mail/nntp. For a lot of people (including myself) the
>  >>> lack of threading is a show stopper for their workflow.
>  >>> 
>  >>> 
>  >>> The mail interface in Discourse is...lacking a lot of features for a lot
>  >>> of people. Your comment "why is that so hard to understand"
> applies
>  >>> both ways....
>  >>> 
>  >>> /Louis
>  >>> 
>  >>> _______________________________________________
>  >>> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  >>> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  >>> Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  >>> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  >>> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  >>> List Archives:
>  >>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail].
>  >>> org
>  >> 
>  >> _______________________________________________
>  >> devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  >> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  >> Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  >> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  >> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  >> List Archives:
>  >> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail].o
>  >> rg
>  > 
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  > List Archives:
>  > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  > g 
Then you'd have to watch two places, and would be having two very separate 
discussions, one on mailing lists, and one on Discourse. You see why that's 
not an option? Nobody benefits in that scenario.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Solomon Peachy]

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 12:34:40PM -0300, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  I personally don't like them.  As the threads increase the
> discussion
>  becomes hard to follow... 
Unlike a non-threaded view of the same discussion, which becomes 
completely impossible to follow (to say nothing about actual 
contributions) at a far earlier point.

Tools that work well at low levels of complexity fail pretty 
spectacularly as the complexity (or sheer quantity) scales up.

(For example, if you want to get to the roof of a single-storey home, 
 you use a ladder.  A bigger building?  A bigger ladder.  But that's not 
 going to work for a ten-storey building, much less a skyscraper...)

 - Solomon
-- 
Solomon Peachy			       pizza at shaftnet dot org
High Springs, FL                          ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 at 11:01, Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>  Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email with mail from mailing
> lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a misconfiguration.  I
> don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail - and I don't want to use an NNTP
> gateway, I want to use Discourse.  Why is that so hard to understand?
>  
In the same way that you keep explaining to people that they are using
Discourse wrong when they say they don't want to use it in any form.
So they are going to respond to you in the same form. The problem with
this passive way is that no one is explaining to each other that they
have 100% non-meeting Venn circles.

-- 
Stephen J Smoogen.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 8/27/19 11:00 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  Why is it when I say that I don't want to clutter up my email
> with 
>  mail from mailing lists I'm told it's a misconfiguration.  It's not a 
>  misconfiguration.  I don't want the forum email cluttering up my mail 
>  - and I don't want to use an NNTP gateway, I want to use Discourse.  
>  Why is that so hard to understand?  
Would your concerns be addressed if tjere was a gateway from this email 
list to Discord? Would something simple that just stores each email in a 
separate Discord item work, and if not, why?

BTW, is there a gateway of this sort already somewhere?

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

>  On 8/27/19 11:00 AM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  
>  Would your concerns be addressed if tjere was a gateway from this email 
>  list to Discord? Would something simple that just stores each email in a 
>  separate Discord item work, and if not, why?
>  
>  BTW, is there a gateway of this sort already somewhere? 
I'm not aware of a gateway... if there is one, that could be helpful.  Additionally, I
was looking at Hyperkitty and submitted another topic about RSS feeds.  That would be very
helpful.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  I understand there isn't going to be 100% feature parity, but it
> should be
>  good enough - and if it isn't we should be working with the Discourse
>  people to improve it rather than just using it as an excuse to not moving
>  forward. 
I want to clarify something here. Forums are nothing new. Neither is receiving 
mail from forums, and honestly neither is replying to a forum post by email. 
Forums are not the "evolution" of email, they're just a different type of 
software.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

I never said they were.  What I said was expecting and requiring Discourse
to 100% replicate everything a mailing list does isn't going to happen and
shouldn't be a requirement.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:55 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > I understand there isn't going to be 100% feature parity, but it should
>  be
>  > good enough - and if it isn't we should be working with the Discourse
>  > people to improve it rather than just using it as an excuse to not moving
>  > forward.
>
>  I want to clarify something here. Forums are nothing new. Neither is
>  receiving
>  mail from forums, and honestly neither is replying to a forum post by
>  email.
>  Forums are not the "evolution" of email, they're just a different type of
>  software.
>
>  --
>  John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
>  Splentity
>  https://splentity.com/
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 8:02:31 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  I never said they were.  What I said was expecting and requiring
> Discourse
>  to 100% replicate everything a mailing list does isn't going to happen and
>  shouldn't be a requirement.
>  
>  On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 11:55 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt; wrote:
>  > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:29:28 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > > I understand there isn't going to be 100% feature parity, but it should
>  > 
>  > be
>  > 
>  > > good enough - and if it isn't we should be working with the Discourse
>  > > people to improve it rather than just using it as an excuse to not
>  > > moving
>  > > forward.
>  > 
>  > I want to clarify something here. Forums are nothing new. Neither is
>  > receiving
>  > mail from forums, and honestly neither is replying to a forum post by
>  > email.
>  > Forums are not the "evolution" of email, they're just a different type
> of
>  > software.
>  > 
>  > --
>  > John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
>  > Splentity
>  > https://splentity.com/
>  > 
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  > List Archives:
>  > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  > g 
If it's not up to the task, why would you suggest we move to it? What benefits 
would there be?

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:23:48 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>   The fact is that for the vast majority of people, the discourse
> mailing
>   list functionality is good enough - and as time goes on it continues
>   to improve - but again, it's not reasonable to expect or demand 100%.  IMO 
>   the pros outweigh the cons. 
Where was this poll that you used to determine that it's "good enough"? What

pros?

>  The top of this email thread is:  No longer supporting mailing lists
>  and my understanding is that Fedora is searching for people to take over
>  support.  Seems to me that is a good time to consider switching to
>  discourse.  From reading experiences of people who did the migration, it's
>  easier to support. 
It's not easier to support, which is why Fedora isn't doing it at all. Either 
the Discourse folks gave us the instance, or either we or Red Hat purchased it 
from Discourse. I don't remember which.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 9:35 AM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:23:48 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  >  The fact is that for the vast majority of people, the discourse mailing
>  >  list functionality is good enough - and as time goes on it continues
>  >  to improve - but again, it's not reasonable to expect or demand 100%.  IMO
>  >  the pros outweigh the cons.
>
>  Where was this poll that you used to determine that it's "good enough"?
> What
>  pros?
>
>  > The top of this email thread is:  No longer supporting mailing lists
>  > and my understanding is that Fedora is searching for people to take over
>  > support.  Seems to me that is a good time to consider switching to
>  > discourse.  From reading experiences of people who did the migration, it's
>  > easier to support.
>
>  It's not easier to support, which is why Fedora isn't doing it at all. Either
>  the Discourse folks gave us the instance, or either we or Red Hat purchased it
>  from Discourse. I don't remember which.
>  
Red Hat is paying for Discourse to host discussions.fp.o. The CPE team
said that under no uncertain terms that they would not be willing to
administer a Discourse instance in any other circumstance.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Julen Landa Alustiza]

I'm curious about discourse's options here...

Is quite common on our workflows to have mailing threads that targets a couple of fedora
mailing list, another outside mailing list and some third party individuals when we
discuss about an specific feature.

The xen criteria one for example, it had been cross mailing test@, devel@, xen's third
party mailing list and some amazon folks with direct CCs.

Is this possible with discourse?
Julen Landa Alustiza <jlanda(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:53:08 AM MST Julen Landa Alustiza wrote:
>  I'm curious about discourse's options here...
>  
>  Is quite common on our workflows to have mailing threads that targets a
>  couple of fedora mailing list, another outside mailing list and some third
>  party individuals when we discuss about an specific feature. 
 
>  The xen criteria one for example, it had been cross mailing test@,
> devel@,
>  xen's third party mailing list and some amazon folks with direct CCs. 
 
>  Is this possible with discourse?
>  Julen Landa Alustiza <jlanda(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List
>  Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>  Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail] 
I brought this up earlier. It's possible that you can CC the Discourse reply 
email address, but it won't work as you're expecting, and leaves your 
Discourse account open to posting content as anyone that sees the reply email 
address. Additionally, all of the actual email attributes will be stripped 
when Discourse parses it.

That's something I noticed when I created this thread.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

I would assume you would just use mailing list mode and address
additional recipients.  To receive an expert reply I would suggest you ask
the question here:

https://meta.discourse.org/c/support

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:54 AM Julen Landa Alustiza <
jlanda(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  I'm curious about discourse's options here...
>
>  Is quite common on our workflows to have mailing threads that targets a
>  couple of fedora mailing list, another outside mailing list and some third
>  party individuals when we discuss about an specific feature.
>
>  The xen criteria one for example, it had been cross mailing test@, devel@,
>  xen's third party mailing list and some amazon folks with direct CCs.
>
>  Is this possible with discourse?
>  Julen Landa Alustiza <jlanda(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 7:14:45 AM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  I would assume you would just use mailing list mode and address
>  additional recipients.  To receive an expert reply I would suggest you ask
>  the question here:
>  
>  https://meta.discourse.org/c/support
>  
>  On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:54 AM Julen Landa Alustiza <
>  
>  jlanda(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  > I'm curious about discourse's options here...
>  > 
>  > Is quite common on our workflows to have mailing threads that targets a
>  > couple of fedora mailing list, another outside mailing list and some third
>  > party individuals when we discuss about an specific feature.
>  > 
>  > The xen criteria one for example, it had been cross mailing test@, devel@,
>  > xen's third party mailing list and some amazon folks with direct CCs.
>  > 
>  > Is this possible with discourse?
>  > Julen Landa Alustiza <jlanda(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  > List Archives:
>  > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  > g 
See the first email in this thread. Doesn't work.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Ankur Sinha]

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 05:23:48 -0700, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  <snip>
>  
>  A key comment was:  "Our site is still quite busy, although some people are
>  still grumbling about the change, 8 months later. The die-hard email users are
>  still able to participate, which came as a bit of a pleasant shock to them. I
>  think they were fully expecting that once we moved to a modern platform, they’d
>  be forced to use a web interface." 
This statement does nothing to advance either view. "8 months later,
Discourse users will still be pleasantly surprised to be able to use
e-mail..."

>  <snip> 
>  I prefer to uses the discourse rss interface to scan for topics and
>  then go directly to it to respond.  Instead of writing a "me too"
>  email, I can simply click a like button to show I'm in agreement.  
I'm curious. What are your experiences with like button? From what I see
on AskFedora, they don't serve much purpose other than for badges. They
only show the number of likes, to begin with. When one clicks to see who
liked the post, one only sees their display pictures and must go over
the icons one by one to see their usernames (which in our circles does
not necessarily connect to their names clearly). So, sure, you are
liking the post, but in my book, the communication isn't as clear as a
"+1, me too" reply.

I'm not sure if like buttons are intended to signal agreement in the
first place either. They're more for "I like your reply!", following the
Facebook way of things.  Of course, to disagree one must
comment---intentionally no dislike button anywhere. Flagging means
something else entirely.

So, for me, the like buttons are merely a gamification feature, not a
communication feature. (The same goes for their use in
Github/Gitlab/Pagure/hyperkitty)


>  It's easier to see the full context of a thread.  With the
> current
>  situation I have to go scan the archives.  
Not an advantage of Discourse over mailing lists/email either. Any
e-mail client will allow one to see a full thread. 

>  I like to use the mobile app to read and reply from my phone.  
Same---e-mail on my phone/tablet works great.

>  For every item mentioned about discourse doesn't do A, B, C with
>  mailing lists I can counter with an item that email lists cannot do.   
I'm sorry, I've missed these. I'll look through the thread to see what
these were.

>  The fact is that for the vast
>  majority of people, the discourse mailing list functionality is good
>  enough  
>  - and as time goes on it continues to improve - but again, it's
>  not reasonable to expect or demand 100%.  IMO the pros outweigh the
>  cons. 
>  The top of this email thread is:  No longer supporting mailing lists
>  and my understanding is that Fedora is searching for people to take over
>  support.  Seems to me that is a good time to consider switching to discourse. 
>  From reading experiences of people who did the migration, it's easier to
>  support. 
For the instances that we have up, all we do is pay Discourse to host
for us. If the same is done for mailing lists, they become as easy to
support.

I've been trying to keep up with the discussion, and the only main
selling point of discourse seems to be the web-interface. But, the
web-interface doesn't fit large discussions in my book. Threading in my
e-mail client (mutt on a terminal even) is clearer than that in
Discourse, for example. In Discourse, threads are merely chronological
and flat, and from what this post says, this is by design:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/show-discussion-as-a-tree/103535/3

So, you cannot see the discussion as a clear tree on the web-interface.
Even hyperkitty has some rudimentary support for this.

If the idea is "let us use discourse but everyone use the e-mail
feature", then it makes more sense to just stick to the well
established mailing list via e-mail system for the moment.

-- 
Thanks,
Regards,
Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD" (He / Him / His) |
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
Time zone: Europe/London

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Kevin Kofler]

Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  If the requirement is that discourse completely replicate 100% the
>  functionality of mailing lists, that is unreasonable and isn't going to
>  happen. 
If the plan is to replace mailing lists with something that cannot even 
provide the same functionality, that is unreasonable and isn't going to 
happen.

>  As I mentioned earlier there are several groups working on this
>  or have done migration from mailing lists to discourse:
>  
>  https://discourse-mediawiki.wmflabs.org/t/lets-try-to-emulate-a-mailing-l...
>  https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-mailing-lists-majordomo-or-othe...
>  
>  You can find more examples with a web search. 
But you are assuming that we actually WANT to migrate, which is NOT the 
case.

>  A key comment was:  "Our site is still quite busy, although some
> people
>  are still grumbling about the change, 8 months later. The die-hard email
>  users are still able to participate, which came as a bit of a pleasant
>  shock to them. I think they were fully expecting that once we moved to a
>  modern platform, they’d be forced to use a web interface." 
But what about the die-hard NNTP users? You entirely ignored my post to 
which you are supposedly replying.

>  Personally, I don't like my mailbox filled up with mailing list
> postings. 
Then use either NNTP through Gmane (news.gmane.org, default port 119, 
STARTTLS supported; and the trick to be able to post without getting treated 
as spam is to subscribe to the mailing list, but disable mail delivery), or 
HyperKitty (web interface, should just work).

Since you like web interfaces, why does HyperKitty not fulfill your needs?

        Kevin Kofler

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Hey Kevin:

>  Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  
>  If the plan is to replace mailing lists with something that cannot even 
>  provide the same functionality, that is unreasonable and isn't going to 
>  happen.
>  
>  
>  But you are assuming that we actually WANT to migrate, which is NOT the 
>  case.
>   
LOL, I've noticed!  ;-)
>   

> But what about the die-hard NNTP users? You entirely ignored my post to 
> which you are supposedly replying.
>   
I believe there is a plugin for that with Discourse:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/sync-discourse-with-nntp/58602


>   
> Then use either NNTP through Gmane (news.gmane.org,
default port 119, 
> STARTTLS supported; and the trick to be able to post without getting treated 
> as spam is to subscribe to the mailing list, but disable mail delivery), or 
> HyperKitty (web interface, should just work).
>   
> Since you like web interfaces, why does HyperKitty not
fulfill your needs?
>   
>         Kevin Kofler


I was thinking about HyperKitty and if it had RSS support that would make it workable.  I
already use RSS quite a bit and having the feed come through that and to be able to select
items through there and launch into HyperKitty would be very workable - and apparently RSS
support for HyperKitty / Mailman 3 has been in the works for years now, but AFAIK not much
has happened with it.  I submitted another post regarding that.  Regarding NNTP I've
haven't used newsreaders in years and to be honest dealing with yet another tool
isn't something I would want to do... probably the same as people here not wanting to
use Discourse.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:36:58 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  Hey Kevin:
>  
>  
>  > Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > 
>  > If the plan is to replace mailing lists with something that cannot even 
>  > provide the same functionality, that is unreasonable and isn't going to 
>  > happen.
>  > 
>  > 
>  > But you are assuming that we actually WANT to migrate, which is NOT the 
>  > case.
>  > 
>  
>  
>  LOL, I've noticed!  ;-)
>  
>  > 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  > But what about the die-hard NNTP users? You entirely ignored my post to 
>  > which you are supposedly replying.
>  > 
>  
>  I believe there is a plugin for that with Discourse:
>  https://meta.discourse.org/t/sync-discourse-with-nntp/58602
>  
>  
>  
>  > 
>  > Then use either NNTP through Gmane (news.gmane.org, default port 119, 
>  > STARTTLS supported; and the trick to be able to post without getting
>  > treated  as spam is to subscribe to the mailing list, but disable mail
>  > delivery), or HyperKitty (web interface, should just work).
>  > 
>  > Since you like web interfaces, why does HyperKitty not fulfill your
>  > needs?
>  > 
>  > 
>  >         Kevin Kofler
>  
>  
>  
>  I was thinking about HyperKitty and if it had RSS support that would make it
>  workable.  I already use RSS quite a bit and having the feed come through
>  that and to be able to select items through there and launch into
>  HyperKitty would be very workable - and apparently RSS support for
>  HyperKitty / Mailman 3 has been in the works for years now, but AFAIK not
>  much has happened with it.  I submitted another post regarding that. 
>  Regarding NNTP I've haven't used newsreaders in years and to be honest
>  dealing with yet another tool isn't something I would want to do...
>  probably the same as people here not wanting to use Discourse.
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List
>  Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>  Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail] 
How exactly do your RSS feedreaders handle threading?

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

>  On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:36:58 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  
>  How exactly do your RSS feedreaders handle threading? 
Don't you mean how
HyperKitty will handle it?  I won't be responding from my Feedreader, I would be
reading the contents from the feed, and if I was interested in replying, I would click on
the link and reply from HyperKitty.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:58:11 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:36:58 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > 
>  > How exactly do your RSS feedreaders handle threading?
>  
>  Don't you mean how HyperKitty will handle it?  I won't be responding from my
>  Feedreader, I would be reading the contents from the feed, and if I was
>  interested in replying, I would click on the link and reply from
>  HyperKitty. _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List
>  Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>  Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail] 
How do you expect your feedreader to show that?

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

Show what?   Sorry, I don't know what your talking about.  Have you ever
used RSS?  When you subscribe to a feed, you get the article... in this
case it would be the email in HyperKitty.  When you click on the title, it
opens up the sourced article on the web.  In this case it would be the
email within HyperKitty.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:00 PM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:58:11 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:36:58 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > >
>  > > How exactly do your RSS feedreaders handle threading?
>  >
>  > Don't you mean how HyperKitty will handle it?  I won't be responding
>  from my
>  > Feedreader, I would be reading the contents from the feed, and if I was
>  > interested in replying, I would click on the link and reply from
>  > HyperKitty. _______________________________________________
>  > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List
>  > Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>  > Archives:
>  >
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>
>  How do you expect your feedreader to show that?
>
>  --
>  John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
>  Splentity
>  https://splentity.com/
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[John Harris]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:03:37 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  Show what?   Sorry, I don't know what your talking about.  Have
> you ever
>  used RSS?  When you subscribe to a feed, you get the article... in this
>  case it would be the email in HyperKitty.  When you click on the title, it
>  opens up the sourced article on the web.  In this case it would be the
>  email within HyperKitty.
>  
>  On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 10:00 PM John Harris <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt; wrote:
>  > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:58:11 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > > > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 5:36:58 PM MST Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > > > 
>  > > > How exactly do your RSS feedreaders handle threading?
>  > > 
>  > > Don't you mean how HyperKitty will handle it?  I won't be responding
>  > 
>  > from my
>  > 
>  > > Feedreader, I would be reading the contents from the feed, and if I was
>  > > interested in replying, I would click on the link and reply from
>  > > HyperKitty. _______________________________________________
>  > > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List
>  > > Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List
>  > 
>  > > Archives:
>  > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  > g
>  > 
>  > How do you expect your feedreader to show that?
>  > 
>  > --
>  > John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
>  > Splentity
>  > https://splentity.com/
>  > 
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  > List Archives:
>  > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  > g 
I have both used and implemented RSS, which is precisely why I've got this 
question. How do you expect that to work? Do you expect to see it as a flat 
thread? A different feed for each thread? That's the only way I could see that 
being implemented.

-- 
John M. Harris, Jr. <johnmh(a)splentity.com&gt;
Splentity
https://splentity.com/

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Kevin Kofler]

I wrote:
> > But what about the die-hard NNTP users? You entirely ignored my
> post to
> > which you are supposedly replying. 
Gerald B. Cox replied:
>  I believe there is a plugin for that with Discourse:
>  https://meta.discourse.org/t/sync-discourse-with-nntp/58602 
It would be great to get that deployed on Fedora Infrastructure.

While I'm not convinced that it will work as well as for the mailing lists, 
it would definitely be better than nothing (i.e., the status quo).

        Kevin Kofler

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 1:40 AM Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt; wrote:

>  I wrote:
>  >> But what about the die-hard NNTP users? You entirely ignored my post to
>  >> which you are supposedly replying.
>
>  Gerald B. Cox replied:
>  > I believe there is a plugin for that with Discourse:
>  > https://meta.discourse.org/t/sync-discourse-with-nntp/58602
>
>  It would be great to get that deployed on Fedora Infrastructure.
>
>  While I'm not convinced that it will work as well as for the mailing
>  lists,
>  it would definitely be better than nothing (i.e., the status quo).
>
>  
Yeah, the issue I think with NNTP and with mailman, hyperkitty, etc. is
there appears to be a lack of innovation, development - and when it does
happen, it happens at a snails pace.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that certainly
appears to be the case from what I saw reading through feature requests,
etc.  Technologies like Discourse, etc. have a more active development
community and the popularity of older technogies is decreasing.  No, I
don't believe mail or usenet is going away anytime soon, but the feature
set is going to remain pretty static - with the new feature sets going to
things like Discourse.  I did search on knode and found that development
was discontinued - and there isn't really a plethora of nntp clients
available - as there was decades ago.  People generally have moved on.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Przemek Klosowski]

On 8/27/19 8:36 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  Regarding NNTP I've haven't used newsreaders in years and to
> be honest dealing with yet another tool isn't something I would want to do 
I forgot what email client you use, but all clients I ever used (Emacs 
and Thunderbird) also do NNTP. After all, it's just another stream of 
messages.

No longer supporting mailing lists:

[Gerald B. Cox]

I use the gmail android app and on desktop I use the gmail web interface.

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 3:19 PM Przemek Klosowski via devel <
devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  On 8/27/19 8:36 PM, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
>  > Regarding NNTP I've haven't used newsreaders in years and to be honest
>  dealing with yet another tool isn't something I would want to do
>
>  I forgot what email client you use, but all clients I ever used (Emacs
>  and Thunderbird) also do NNTP. After all, it's just another stream of
>  messages.
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