Fedora Jam switch to GNOME

Hi all,

I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are
multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial
to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be
helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest
objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts
in the overall community.

The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources
that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio
processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and
underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns
cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want
to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a
buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal
latency while avoiding Xruns.

Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with
these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from
Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.

The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall negative
attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE
contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of
improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I
know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a
desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and
does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could
name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.

Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any guidance
toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new
kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make
the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.

Thanks and best regards,
Erich
----
Erich Eickmeyer
Fedora Jam

[Harsh Jain]

Hi ,
I'm not too familiar with Fedora Jam but if you want to minimize resource
usage , shouldn't XFCE be a better choice since it's less intensive with
resources . Although Gnome has also reduced resource usage since initial
3.x releases as well I think . It's just really hard to decide between
evrything (l'm de hopping currently as well) . Again ,I'm sorry if none of
this was useful .
Thanks ,
Harsh

On Wed, 10 Jun, 2020, 21:40 , <erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hi all,
>
>  I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are
>  multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial
>  to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be
>  helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest
>  objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts
>  in the overall community.
>
>  The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources
>  that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio
>  processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and
>  underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns
>  cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want
>  to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a
>  buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal
>  latency while avoiding Xruns.
>
>  Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with
>  these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from
>  Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
>
>  The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall negative
>  attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE
>  contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of
>  improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I
>  know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a
>  desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and
>  does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could
>  name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.
>
>  Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any guidance
>  toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new
>  kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make
>  the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
>
>  Thanks and best regards,
>  Erich
>  ----
>  Erich Eickmeyer
>  Fedora Jam
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 22:01 +0530, Harsh Jain wrote:
>  Hi ,
>  I'm not too familiar with Fedora Jam but if you want to minimize
>  resource usage , shouldn't XFCE be a better choice since it's less
>  intensive with resources . Although Gnome has also reduced resource
>  usage since initial 3.x releases as well I think . It's just really
>  hard to decide between evrything (l'm de hopping currently as well) .
>  Again ,I'm sorry if none of this was useful . 
>  Thanks ,
>  Harsh 
>   
Hi Harsh,

I also lead Ubuntu Studio and we just moved away from Xfce to KDE
Plasma because we wanted a more-functional desktop for creative
professionals. The resource usage between Xfce and Plasma is neglegable
(about 50MB difference) and KDE is a better choice for graphics artists
(which Ubuntu Studio also covers.

I think you missed the point though: the goal is to help GNOME improve.
I've had conversations with people who want to see GNOME improve in
this regard and want to work with me in improving it. So, this isn't
about simply switching desktops, this is about helping another desktop
improve its situation. If Jam is to switch, it's going to GNOME, that
decision is already made. The "If" is what I'm working on, whether or
not to actually go through with it.  If it does happen, the goal is to
improve GNOME. One can always install whatever desktop they want and do
"dnf groupinstall 'Audio Production'".

I hoep that clears things up, as I think you missed the point. :)

Erich

[Harsh Jain]

Hi Erich ,
Sorry , I thought the primary focus was to find a new de to shift to .
Improving Gnome in terms of reducing resource usage (and in general ) seems
pretty nice . I'd be happy to have another de I can work smoothly with :)
This might not be relevant but if you install pantheon de , you can switch
to gnome on the logout screen (even if you didn't install it ) and it
basically brings gnome shell with pantheon apps .
I felt it was a bit smoother than normal gnome ( I didn't test this
extensively but everything seemed to work fine ) .Maybe this can help in
some way ?
Thanks ,
Harsh

On Wed, 10 Jun, 2020, 22:10 , <erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 22:01 +0530, Harsh Jain wrote:
>  > Hi ,
>  > I'm not too familiar with Fedora Jam but if you want to minimize
>  > resource usage , shouldn't XFCE be a better choice since it's less
>  > intensive with resources . Although Gnome has also reduced resource
>  > usage since initial 3.x releases as well I think . It's just really
>  > hard to decide between evrything (l'm de hopping currently as well) .
>  > Again ,I'm sorry if none of this was useful .
>  > Thanks ,
>  > Harsh
>  >
>
>  Hi Harsh,
>
>  I also lead Ubuntu Studio and we just moved away from Xfce to KDE
>  Plasma because we wanted a more-functional desktop for creative
>  professionals. The resource usage between Xfce and Plasma is neglegable
>  (about 50MB difference) and KDE is a better choice for graphics artists
>  (which Ubuntu Studio also covers.
>
>  I think you missed the point though: the goal is to help GNOME improve.
>  I've had conversations with people who want to see GNOME improve in
>  this regard and want to work with me in improving it. So, this isn't
>  about simply switching desktops, this is about helping another desktop
>  improve its situation. If Jam is to switch, it's going to GNOME, that
>  decision is already made. The "If" is what I'm working on, whether or
>  not to actually go through with it.  If it does happen, the goal is to
>  improve GNOME. One can always install whatever desktop they want and do
>  "dnf groupinstall 'Audio Production'".
>
>  I hoep that clears things up, as I think you missed the point. :)
>
>  Erich
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

[Lukas Ruzicka]

Hi Erich,

so today I spent some time in the recording session with the following
settings and configurations:

   - The machine is 2x 12core Intel Xeon with an SSD drive and 32GB RAM - I
   know that this is a recording overkill and I am not sure how much the
   machine itself can influence the recording process.
   - Soundcard is Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 over USB
   - My system is an updated Fedora Workstation 32 with stock kernel (I
   only lifted up the ulimits)
   - The recording session was set to 48KHz, 32bit float audio
   - The session had about 15 tracks, out of which there were 5 sound+midi
   tracks and the rest were sound tracks

and I have made the following observations:

   - the session could perform playback normally on 512 samples and 10ms
   latency
   - when I recorded on 512 samples and 10ms latency, I could work
   flawlessly for about 10 or 15 minutes and then, all of a sudden, Ardour
   spat a bunch of xruns. I started to delete the xrun markers one after
   another and Ardour crashed.
   - then I restarted it on 1024 samples and 21ms latency which was fine
   for the rest of the work -> did not have any more xruns.

So, I can confirm, that with the above settings I can use stock Fedora
Workstation with Gnome desktop for my recording at 1024 samples with 21ms
latency.
I could not test higher freqencies, because I do not have any such a
project ready, but when I experimented with 192KHz, I was fine with 2048
sampes and 42ms latency, which I remember very well (from that experience
my settings of 2048 samples do originate from).

I hope you can use this info, if you needed something else, please let me
know.


On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Harsh Jain <harshjain075(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hi Erich ,
>  Sorry , I thought the primary focus was to find a new de to shift to .
>  Improving Gnome in terms of reducing resource usage (and in general )
>  seems pretty nice . I'd be happy to have another de I can work smoothly
>  with :)
>  This might not be relevant but if you install pantheon de , you can switch
>  to gnome on the logout screen (even if you didn't install it ) and it
>  basically brings gnome shell with pantheon apps .
>  I felt it was a bit smoother than normal gnome ( I didn't test this
>  extensively but everything seemed to work fine ) .Maybe this can help in
>  some way ?
>  Thanks ,
>  Harsh
>
>  On Wed, 10 Jun, 2020, 22:10 , <erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com&gt; wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 22:01 +0530, Harsh Jain wrote:
> > > Hi ,
> > > I'm not too familiar with Fedora Jam but if you want to minimize
> > > resource usage , shouldn't XFCE be a better choice since it's less
> > > intensive with resources . Although Gnome has also reduced resource
> > > usage since initial 3.x releases as well I think . It's just really
> > > hard to decide between evrything (l'm de hopping currently as well) .
> > > Again ,I'm sorry if none of this was useful .
> > > Thanks ,
> > > Harsh
> > >
> >
> > Hi Harsh,
> >
> > I also lead Ubuntu Studio and we just moved away from Xfce to KDE
> > Plasma because we wanted a more-functional desktop for creative
> > professionals. The resource usage between Xfce and Plasma is neglegable
> > (about 50MB difference) and KDE is a better choice for graphics artists
> > (which Ubuntu Studio also covers.
> >
> > I think you missed the point though: the goal is to help GNOME improve.
> > I've had conversations with people who want to see GNOME improve in
> > this regard and want to work with me in improving it. So, this isn't
> > about simply switching desktops, this is about helping another desktop
> > improve its situation. If Jam is to switch, it's going to GNOME, that
> > decision is already made. The "If" is what I'm working on, whether or
> > not to actually go through with it.  If it does happen, the goal is to
> > improve GNOME. One can always install whatever desktop they want and do
> > "dnf groupinstall 'Audio Production'".
> >
> > I hoep that clears things up, as I think you missed the point. :)
> >
> > Erich
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> >
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

[Yann COLLETTE]

Hello,

I have a repository with a real time kernel I use for music.
https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/ycollet/linuxmao/

With this kernel, I can 128 samples buffer at 48kHz and 5 ms latency 
without Xruns.
I use "a lot" of applications to perform guitar (guitarix + tuxguitar).
I also can record video "live".

Here's an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPL-iNg42Ag

Best regards,

YC

Le 11/06/2020 à 11:14, Lukas Ruzicka a écrit :
>  Hi Erich,
>
>  so today I spent some time in the recording session with the following 
>  settings and configurations:
>
>    * The machine is 2x 12core Intel Xeon with an SSD drive and 32GB RAM
>      - I know that this is a recording overkill and I am not sure how
>      much the machine itself can influence the recording process.
>    * Soundcard is Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 over USB
>    * My system is an updated Fedora Workstation 32 with stock kernel (I
>      only lifted up the ulimits)
>    * The recording session was set to 48KHz, 32bit float audio
>    * The session had about 15 tracks, out of which there were 5
>      sound+midi tracks and the rest were sound tracks
>
>  and I have made the following observations:
>
>    * the session could perform playback normally on 512 samples and
>      10ms latency
>    * when I recorded on 512 samples and 10ms latency, I could work
>      flawlessly for about 10 or 15 minutes and then, all of a sudden,
>      Ardour spat a bunch of xruns. I started to delete the xrun markers
>      one after another and Ardour crashed.
>    * then I restarted it on 1024 samples and 21ms latency which was
>      fine for the rest of the work -> did not have any more xruns.
>
>  So, I can confirm, that with the above settings I can use stock Fedora 
>  Workstation with Gnome desktop for my recording at 1024 samples with 
>  21ms latency.
>  I could not test higher freqencies, because I do not have any such a 
>  project ready, but when I experimented with 192KHz, I was fine with 
>  2048 sampes and 42ms latency, which I remember very well (from that 
>  experience my settings of 2048 samples do originate from).
>
>  I hope you can use this info, if you needed something else, please let 
>  me know.
>
>
>  On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Harsh Jain <harshjain075(a)gmail.com 
>  <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
>      Hi Erich ,
>      Sorry , I thought the primary focus was to find a new de to shift to .
>      Improving Gnome in terms of reducing resource usage (and in
>      general ) seems pretty nice . I'd be happy to have another de I
>      can work smoothly with :)
>      This might not be relevant but if you install pantheon de , you
>      can switch to gnome on the logout screen (even if you didn't
>      install it ) and it basically brings gnome shell with pantheon apps .
>      I felt it was a bit smoother than normal gnome ( I didn't test
>      this extensively but everything seemed to work fine ) .Maybe this
>      can help in some way ?
>      Thanks ,
>      Harsh
>
>      On Wed, 10 Jun, 2020, 22:10 , <erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com
>      <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
>          On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 22:01 +0530, Harsh Jain wrote:
>          > Hi ,
>          > I'm not too familiar with Fedora Jam but if you want to minimize
>          > resource usage , shouldn't XFCE be a better choice since
>          it's less
>          > intensive with resources . Although Gnome has also reduced
>          resource
>          > usage since initial 3.x releases as well I think . It's just
>          really
>          > hard to decide between evrything (l'm de hopping currently
>          as well) .
>          > Again ,I'm sorry if none of this was useful .
>          > Thanks ,
>          > Harsh
>          >
>
>          Hi Harsh,
>
>          I also lead Ubuntu Studio and we just moved away from Xfce to KDE
>          Plasma because we wanted a more-functional desktop for creative
>          professionals. The resource usage between Xfce and Plasma is
>          neglegable
>          (about 50MB difference) and KDE is a better choice for
>          graphics artists
>          (which Ubuntu Studio also covers.
>
>          I think you missed the point though: the goal is to help GNOME
>          improve.
>          I've had conversations with people who want to see GNOME
>          improve in
>          this regard and want to work with me in improving it. So, this
>          isn't
>          about simply switching desktops, this is about helping another
>          desktop
>          improve its situation. If Jam is to switch, it's going to
>          GNOME, that
>          decision is already made. The "If" is what I'm working on,
>          whether or
>          not to actually go through with it.  If it does happen, the
>          goal is to
>          improve GNOME. One can always install whatever desktop they
>          want and do
>          "dnf groupinstall 'Audio Production'".
>
>          I hoep that clears things up, as I think you missed the point. :)
>
>          Erich
>          _______________________________________________
>          devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>          <mailto:[e-mail]>
>          To unsubscribe send an email to
>          devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>          <mailto:[e-mail]>
>          Fedora Code of Conduct:
>          https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>          List Guidelines:
>          https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>          List Archives:
>          https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>
>      _______________________________________________
>      devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>      <mailto:[e-mail]>
>      To unsubscribe send an email to
>      devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>      <mailto:[e-mail]>
>      Fedora Code of Conduct:
>      https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>      List Guidelines:
>      https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>      List Archives:
>      https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>
>
>
>  -- 
>
>  Lukáš Růžička
>
>  FEDORA QE, RHCE
>
>  Red Hat
>
>  <https://www.redhat.com>
>
>  Purkyňova 115
>
>  612 45 Brno - Královo Pole
>
>  lruzicka(a)redhat.com <mailto:[e-mail]>
>
>  	
>  TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]

[Erich Eickmeyer]

Hi Yann,

On 6/11/20 10:50 AM, Yann COLLETTE wrote:
>  Hello,
>
>  I have a repository with a real time kernel I use for music.
>  https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/ycollet/linuxmao/
>
>  With this kernel, I can 128 samples buffer at 48kHz and 5 ms latency
>  without Xruns.
>  I use "a lot" of applications to perform guitar (guitarix + tuxguitar).
>  I also can record video "live".
>
>  Here's an example:
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPL-iNg42Ag
>
>  Best regards,
>
>  YC
>  
Sounds great, but you might think about making it a lowlatency kernel
instead. Real-time kernels have a plethora of security implications when
used on desktop systems. Real Time kernels are meant for embedded
systems, and using one in your desktop system to reduce latency isn't
worth the security risk. See
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/RealTimeKernel

Other than that, I wouldn't mind having you on the Fedora Jam team. :)

-Erich

[Yann Collette]

Thanks for the Link.

I use the RT Kernel just for music. For standard desktop tasks, I switch 
to the official Fedora Kernel.

With the standard Fedora Kernel, I've got too many xruns, that's why I 
decided to test RT Kernel.

Le 11/06/2020 à 22:47, Erich Eickmeyer a écrit :
> Hi Yann,
>
> On 6/11/20 10:50 AM, Yann COLLETTE wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have a repository with a real time kernel I use for music.
>> https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/ycollet/linuxmao/
>>
>> With this kernel, I can 128 samples buffer at 48kHz and 5 ms latency
>> without Xruns.
>> I use "a lot" of applications to perform guitar (guitarix +
tuxguitar).
>> I also can record video "live".
>>
>> Here's an example:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPL-iNg42Ag
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> YC
>>
> Sounds great, but you might think about making it a lowlatency kernel
> instead. Real-time kernels have a plethora of security implications when
> used on desktop systems. Real Time kernels are meant for embedded
> systems, and using one in your desktop system to reduce latency isn't
> worth the security risk. See
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/RealTimeKernel
>
> Other than that, I wouldn't mind having you on the Fedora Jam team. :)
>
> -Erich
>
>

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:10 PM <erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi all,
>
>  I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are
>  multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial
>  to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be
>  helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest
>  objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts
>  in the overall community.
>
>  The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources
>  that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio
>  processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and
>  underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns
>  cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want
>  to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a
>  buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal
>  latency while avoiding Xruns.
>
>  Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with
>  these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from
>  Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
>  
I would personally be very sad if Fedora Jam switched from KDE to
GNOME. To me, KDE has always been the home for creatives, and it shows
with the excellent Qt/KDE based software for auditory and visual
creativity. From my perspective, KDE is the environment that creative
people can feel at home in.

>  The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall
> negative
>  attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE
>  contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of
>  improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I
>  know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a
>  desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and
>  does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could
>  name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.
>  
As a Fedora KDE user, I hope I'm not lumped in that bucket. :)

While I am *deeply* disappointed at Red Hat for removing KDE from
RHEL, that is mostly because people seem to think KDE is no good
because Red Hat dropped it rather than it being due to lack of
engineers to support it.

However, one thing I have been very disappointed about is the attitude
of some folks who are not actively involved or contributing to Fedora
KDE disparaging virtually everyone else and the work they do. In
general, it's very much against our tenants, our expectation of being
excellent to each other, and our philosophy as a community.

As a member of many major groups in Fedora, including the KDE SIG, I
do not personally tolerate such disparagement. If there is a technical
foundation for disagreement, then there's something to discuss, but
personally attacking people is never okay. If I have the ability to do
something about it, I will.

>  Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any
> guidance
>  toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new
>  kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make
>  the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
>  
The mechanics of making such a change are fairly straightforward:
change the fedora-jam KS to switch from the KDE base to the GNOME base
in the fedora-kickstarts repository:
https://pagure.io/fedora-kickstarts/blob/master/f/fedora-live-jam_kde.ks

You'll need to re-rationalize your customizations on top of that, but
it's doable.


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Iñaki Ucar]

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 18:46, Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  I would personally be very sad if Fedora Jam switched from KDE to
>  GNOME. To me, KDE has always been the home for creatives, and it shows
>  with the excellent Qt/KDE based software for auditory and visual
>  creativity. From my perspective, KDE is the environment that creative
>  people can feel at home in. 
Same here, as a musician and Fedora KDE user. :(

-- 
Iñaki Úcar

Hi Iñaki

On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 18:52 +0200, Iñaki Ucar wrote:
>  On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 18:46, Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  > I would personally be very sad if Fedora Jam switched from KDE to
>  > GNOME. To me, KDE has always been the home for creatives, and it
>  > shows
>  > with the excellent Qt/KDE based software for auditory and visual
>  > creativity. From my perspective, KDE is the environment that
>  > creative
>  > people can feel at home in.
>  
>  Same here, as a musician and Fedora KDE user. :(
>   
This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. Thank you!

Nothing is set in stone, I just wanted to probe the community and see
what people thought. :)

-Erich

Hi Neal,

On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 12:44 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
>  On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:10 PM <erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  > Hi all,
>  > 
>  > I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There
>  > are
>  > multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be
>  > beneficial
>  > to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to
>  > be
>  > helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest
>  > objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio
>  > enthusiasts
>  > in the overall community.
>  > 
>  > The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources
>  > that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time
>  > audio
>  > processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns
>  > and
>  > underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns
>  > cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you
>  > want
>  > to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a
>  > buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get
>  > minimal
>  > latency while avoiding Xruns.
>  > 
>  > Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with
>  > these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam
>  > from
>  > Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
>  > 
>  
>  I would personally be very sad if Fedora Jam switched from KDE to
>  GNOME. To me, KDE has always been the home for creatives, and it
>  shows
>  with the excellent Qt/KDE based software for auditory and visual
>  creativity. From my perspective, KDE is the environment that creative
>  people can feel at home in. 
This is exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Thank you!

>  > The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall
>  > negative
>  > attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE
>  > contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of
>  > improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining.
>  > I
>  > know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from
>  > being a
>  > desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive,
>  > and
>  > does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I
>  > could
>  > name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will
>  > not.
>  > 
>  
>  As a Fedora KDE user, I hope I'm not lumped in that bucket. :)
>  
>  While I am *deeply* disappointed at Red Hat for removing KDE from
>  RHEL, that is mostly because people seem to think KDE is no good
>  because Red Hat dropped it rather than it being due to lack of
>  engineers to support it.
>  
>  However, one thing I have been very disappointed about is the
>  attitude
>  of some folks who are not actively involved or contributing to Fedora
>  KDE disparaging virtually everyone else and the work they do. In
>  general, it's very much against our tenants, our expectation of being
>  excellent to each other, and our philosophy as a community.
>  
>  As a member of many major groups in Fedora, including the KDE SIG, I
>  do not personally tolerate such disparagement. If there is a
>  technical
>  foundation for disagreement, then there's something to discuss, but
>  personally attacking people is never okay. If I have the ability to
>  do
>  something about it, I will.
>   
Always good to read you. :)

You are definitely not in that bucket. I see your contributions as
nothing but productive and constructive.

>  > Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as
> any
>  > guidance
>  > toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new
>  > kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could
>  > make
>  > the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
>  > 
>  
>  The mechanics of making such a change are fairly straightforward:
>  change the fedora-jam KS to switch from the KDE base to the GNOME
>  base
>  in the fedora-kickstarts repository:
>  https://pagure.io/fedora-kickstarts/blob/master/f/fedora-live-jam_kde.ks
>  
>  You'll need to re-rationalize your customizations on top of that, but
>  it's doable. 
The kickstart is definitely what I would be working in, and the
customizations in there are pretty minimal as you can see.

That said, this whole thing isn't set-in-stone, I just wanted to probe
the community to see what people thought. :)

-Erich

[Kalev Lember]

Hi Erich,

I think this is a great idea -- thanks for getting the discussion started!

I've always found it weird that the Jam spin is based on another desktop,
different from what Fedora Workstation uses. I think it makes a lot of
sense to switch over and try to improve the audio issues in GNOME. We have
a lot of Fedora developers who are also GNOME upstream developers and this
should create nice synergies.

As you may be aware, Wim Taymans has been working on pipewire that
Workstation ships with, with the goal of improving the audio and video
experience in Fedora Workstation and GNOME and Linux desktop in general.
The Jam spin switching to GNOME makes a lot of sense in this context --
that way the Jam users can quickly give feedback on any pipewire issues and
feature requests, hopefully improving the overall situation quickly.

Good idea and +1 from me.

-- 
Kalev


On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 6:10 PM <erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hi all,
>
>  I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are
>  multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial
>  to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be
>  helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest
>  objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts
>  in the overall community.
>
>  The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources
>  that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio
>  processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and
>  underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns
>  cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want
>  to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a
>  buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal
>  latency while avoiding Xruns.
>
>  Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with
>  these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from
>  Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
>
>  The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall negative
>  attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE
>  contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of
>  improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I
>  know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a
>  desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and
>  does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could
>  name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.
>
>  Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any guidance
>  toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new
>  kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make
>  the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
>
>  Thanks and best regards,
>  Erich
>  ----
>  Erich Eickmeyer
>  Fedora Jam
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>

Hi Kalev,

On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 19:20 +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
>  Hi Erich,
>  
>  I think this is a great idea -- thanks for getting the discussion
>  started!
>  
>  I've always found it weird that the Jam spin is based on another
>  desktop, different from what Fedora Workstation uses. I think it
>  makes a lot of sense to switch over and try to improve the audio
>  issues in GNOME. We have a lot of Fedora developers who are also
>  GNOME upstream developers and this should create nice synergies.
>  
>  As you may be aware, Wim Taymans has been working on pipewire that
>  Workstation ships with, with the goal of improving the audio and
>  video experience in Fedora Workstation and GNOME and Linux desktop in
>  general. The Jam spin switching to GNOME makes a lot of sense in this
>  context -- that way the Jam users can quickly give feedback on any
>  pipewire issues and feature requests, hopefully improving the overall
>  situation quickly.
>  
>  Good idea and +1 from me.
>  
>  -- 
>  Kalev
>   
Thanks. That's exactly what has spurred this conversation. I've been
having conversations in off-list threads about pipewire. I'm highly
interesed in doing work on this, and I think perhaps this would be the
best way to collaborate and get feedback from the overall community of
musicians and audion enthusiasts.

So, perhaps a conversation can be had to create a second kickstart for
GNOME and keep the KDE kickstart?

But, that's the goal: to get users to give feature requests and issues
to pipewire. I am not sure that can be adequately accomplished in KDE
Plasma.

-Erich

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:29 PM <erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi Kalev,
>
>  On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 19:20 +0200, Kalev Lember wrote:
>  > Hi Erich,
>  >
>  > I think this is a great idea -- thanks for getting the discussion
>  > started!
>  >
>  > I've always found it weird that the Jam spin is based on another
>  > desktop, different from what Fedora Workstation uses. I think it
>  > makes a lot of sense to switch over and try to improve the audio
>  > issues in GNOME. We have a lot of Fedora developers who are also
>  > GNOME upstream developers and this should create nice synergies.
>  >
>  > As you may be aware, Wim Taymans has been working on pipewire that
>  > Workstation ships with, with the goal of improving the audio and
>  > video experience in Fedora Workstation and GNOME and Linux desktop in
>  > general. The Jam spin switching to GNOME makes a lot of sense in this
>  > context -- that way the Jam users can quickly give feedback on any
>  > pipewire issues and feature requests, hopefully improving the overall
>  > situation quickly.
>  >
>  > Good idea and +1 from me.
>  >
>  > --
>  > Kalev
>  >
>
>  Thanks. That's exactly what has spurred this conversation. I've been
>  having conversations in off-list threads about pipewire. I'm highly
>  interesed in doing work on this, and I think perhaps this would be the
>  best way to collaborate and get feedback from the overall community of
>  musicians and audion enthusiasts.
>
>  So, perhaps a conversation can be had to create a second kickstart for
>  GNOME and keep the KDE kickstart?
>
>  But, that's the goal: to get users to give feature requests and issues
>  to pipewire. I am not sure that can be adequately accomplished in KDE
>  Plasma.
>  
I'd be concerned about the viability of PipeWire if we don't have work
going upstream in KDE to leverage it, though. The majority of creative
software is Qt5/KF5 based, and not having PipeWire support first class
in that ecosystem would be massively damaging to the quality of the
offering. That's less about GNOME vs KDE and more about PipeWire still
needing work to be broadly adopted.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Lukas Ruzicka]

offering. That's less about GNOME vs KDE and more about PipeWire still
>  needing work to be broadly adopted.
>
>  
Well, does it mean that PipeWire is going to replace Jack? Because if not,
then it is a non-issue for recording anyway.




>  --
>  真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

Hi Lukas,

On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 19:39 +0200, Lukas Ruzicka wrote:
>  Well, does it mean that PipeWire is going to replace Jack? Because
> if
>  not, 
>  then it is a non-issue for recording anyway.
>   
As I understand it, Pipewire is going to act as a drop-in replacement
for Jack and Pulseaudio and be completely functionally equivalent to
both, solving the problem with Linux audio that we've had for decades
now.

--Erich

[Lukas Ruzicka]

Hello,

I am using Fedora Workstation with the stock kernel and Gnome Desktop for
my recording attempts with Ardour. I am using the Focusrite Scarlett USB
sound card and I can get down to 40ms latency without getting any xruns (a
couple of releases back, it was an xrun hell). I am aware that the 40ms are
nothing really good, but since I only do some folkie stuff (upto 15 tracks)
it is OK for me and I think that you can make music on Gnome Desktop.

However, I am totally aware that people like to use what they are used to.

Lukas

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kalev Lember <kalevlember(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hi Erich,
>
>  I think this is a great idea -- thanks for getting the discussion started!
>
>  I've always found it weird that the Jam spin is based on another desktop,
>  different from what Fedora Workstation uses. I think it makes a lot of
>  sense to switch over and try to improve the audio issues in GNOME. We have
>  a lot of Fedora developers who are also GNOME upstream developers and this
>  should create nice synergies.
>
>  As you may be aware, Wim Taymans has been working on pipewire that
>  Workstation ships with, with the goal of improving the audio and video
>  experience in Fedora Workstation and GNOME and Linux desktop in general.
>  The Jam spin switching to GNOME makes a lot of sense in this context --
>  that way the Jam users can quickly give feedback on any pipewire issues and
>  feature requests, hopefully improving the overall situation quickly.
>
>  Good idea and +1 from me.
>
>  --
>  Kalev
>
>
>  On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 6:10 PM <erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com&gt; wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are
> > multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial
> > to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be
> > helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest
> > objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts
> > in the overall community.
> >
> > The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources
> > that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio
> > processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and
> > underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns
> > cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want
> > to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a
> > buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal
> > latency while avoiding Xruns.
> >
> > Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with
> > these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from
> > Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation.
> >
> > The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall negative
> > attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE
> > contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of
> > improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I
> > know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a
> > desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and
> > does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could
> > name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not.
> >
> > Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any guidance
> > toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new
> > kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make
> > the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it.
> >
> > Thanks and best regards,
> > Erich
> > ----
> > Erich Eickmeyer
> > Fedora Jam
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> >
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

Hi Lukas,

On Wed, 2020-06-10 at 19:36 +0200, Lukas Ruzicka wrote:
>  Hello,
>  
>  I am using Fedora Workstation with the stock kernel and Gnome Desktop
>  for my recording attempts with Ardour. I am using the Focusrite
>  Scarlett USB sound card and I can get down to 40ms latency without
>  getting any xruns (a couple of releases back, it was an xrun hell). I
>  am aware that the 40ms are nothing really good, but since I only do
>  some folkie stuff (upto 15 tracks) it is OK for me and I think that
>  you can make music on Gnome Desktop.
>  
>  However, I am totally aware that people like to use what they are
>  used to.
>  
>  Lukas
>   
This is exactly the kind of feedback i'm looking for. Thanks! I do know
that under Plasma and Xfce I've seen < 2ms latency with the right
hardware (PCI cards, primarily). I've been able to push my Behringer
UMC404HD (a USB interface) under 10 before. I have yet to do any formal
testing on GNOME, but I'm glad to read what you wrote. Thanks!

-Erich

[Lukas Ruzicka]

>  This is exactly the kind of feedback i'm looking for. Thanks! I do know
>  that under Plasma and Xfce I've seen < 2ms latency with the right
>  hardware (PCI cards, primarily). I've been able to push my Behringer
>  UMC404HD (a USB interface) under 10 before. I have yet to do any formal
>  testing on GNOME, but I'm glad to read what you wrote. Thanks!
>  
Now, I am playing back a previously recorded project with 512 samples,
which gives the latency of 10ms and Ardour is performing fine
without any xruns. The project has 10 tracks and each track has about 3
plugins used. It is getting late here, but if you want, I can try to record
something tomorrow and see which latency I can go to before getting  xruns
and give the feedback here.

I agree that you do not want even one xrun in your session.

PS: I might find out that latency is no more an issue as it was before. I
guess I am using such benevolent settings just for sure.


>  -Erich
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  

-- 

Lukáš Růžička

FEDORA QE, RHCE

Red Hat

<https://www.redhat.com>

Purkyňova 115

612 45 Brno - Královo Pole

lruzicka(a)redhat.com
TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. <https://redhat.com/trusted>

[Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 09:09:28AM -0700, erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
>  Hi all,
>  
>  I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are
>  multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial
>  to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be
>  helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest
>  objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts
>  in the overall community.
>  
>  The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources
>  that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio
>  processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and
>  underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns
>  cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want
>  to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a
>  buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal
>  latency while avoiding Xruns.
>  
>  Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with
>  these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from
>  Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation. 
I'll be blunt here. I don't think this is a good _motivation_ for the
change. If you want to improve Gnome, you can do switch your own
desktop and do tests, and you can write patches, or you can review
other's patches, or you can talk on gnome mailing lists to make the
issue more prominent. But a spin for users should use whatever is best
for the purpose of that spin, period. Users != guinea pigs.

>  The other reason for switching away from Plasma is the overall
> negative
>  attitude I see from Fedora KDE users and former Fedora KDE
>  contributors. It seems to be an attitude against the progress of
>  improving the Linux desktop for the better, and simply complaining. I
>  know some of this attitude comes from Red Hat dropping KDE from being a
>  desktop in REHL, among other changes. That attitude is regressive, and
>  does nothing to help the community if all you do is complain. I could
>  name names, but for the sake of the "Friends" foundation, I will not. 
I'd prefer to talk about which DE is better (now, or in the
foreseeable future). While too many complaints are indeed tiring,
those human-related reasons don't seem like enough to switch the
desktop either.

(I have no knowledge whether KDE or Gnome is better for music. If the
pipewire stuff works out then the situation might be quite different
than in the past... The switch might be well motivated by this and
other reasons, I just think that the two listed above are not good.)

Zbyszek

[Sam Varshavchik]

erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com writes:

>  Anyhow, I'd love to see a discussion about this as well as any
> guidance
>  toward making this change. I know there would have to be a new
>  kickstart along with Koji pointing toward said kickstart. I could make
>  the kickstart, but I think I'd need Koji to look for it. 
Have you considered XFCE? For me, XFCE is a breath of fresh air. It's a  
traditional desktop environment, that always feels like a comfortable, well  
worn pair of shoes.

And to your comment about attitudes, I can only say that I had one  
opportunity to report a bug, it was received well and addressed.

[Jonathan Wakely]

On 10/06/20 09:09 -0700, erich(a)ericheickmeyer.com wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm considering moving Fedora Jam from KDE Plasma to GNOME. There are
> multiple reasons for this, and I think part of it would be beneficial
> to the overall GNOME and Fedora communities as it would be a way to be
> helping improve the situation in GNOME that exist as the biggest
> objections from the community of musicians and Linux audio enthusiasts
> in the overall community.
>
> The biggest objections are resource usage, since the more resources
> that are in use, the more it tends to interfere with real-time audio
> processes, causing buffer overruns and/or underruns. These overruns and
> underruns are known as Xruns. The fewer Xruns, the better, as Xruns
> cause pops during recording. When doing real-time audio work, you want
> to have as low of latency as possible which requires as small of a
> buffer as possible. The goal is to have a small buffer to get minimal
> latency while avoiding Xruns.
>
> Unfortunately, GNOME has, since 3.0, traditionally interfered with
> these processes and caused Xruns. My goal, by moving Fedora Jam from
> Plasma to GNOME, is to help GNOME improve this situation. 
"The beatings will continue until morale improves" ?

[Erich Eickmeyer]

On 6/11/20 10:33 AM, Jonathan Wakely wrote:
>  "The beatings will continue until morale improves" ?
>  
No. The only way to provide feedback to improve something is to actually
*use* the product. Yelling and screaming if you're not actually using it
does nothing to improve it.

[Erich Eickmeyer]

Hello everyone,

After lengthy consideration, I have decided *not* to move Fedora Jam to
GNOME from Plasma for the time being. However, I'd appreciate a lot of
testing with pipewire on both Workstation and Jam, as would the pipewire
team.

Remember, the Jam packages can be installed regardless of desktop
environment by running "sudo dnf groupinstall 'Audio Production'".
Also,
available in the repos is Studio Controls which does all of the tweaking
for Jack and real-time/lowlatency audio access automatically. This is
the upstreamed version of "Ubuntu Studio Controls". The only tweak it
does not make is adjusting swappiness to 10, which I have set as default
in Jam.

Thanks for all of the feedback!

-Erich
----
Erich Eickmeyer
Fedora Jam