For tomorrow's meeting I'd like to use Gobby[1] and the Talk[2] server to complete the Beta Announcement as there seems to be some differing of opinions on what needs to be included.
Does anyone have any problems with using either of these resources for tomorrow's meeting?
Eric
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Gobby [2] http://talk.fedoraproject.org
I have further updated the agenda for tomorrow's meeting[1]. If you have an opinion on how the Beta Announcement should read or what tool(s) we will use to publish our documentation then you should be there! I have limited the number of items on the meeting agenda to those two subjects (unless there are any high-priority items that need to be addressed that are brought to my attention prior to that). The Beta Announcement will be finished by the end of the meeting and we will hash out some ideas on our choice for a documentation tool for the future.
Again, please make sure you have Gobby[2] installed and that it is operational. I plan to have the document up on Gobby about an hour prior to the meeting so you can make sure your settings are correct and you can see the document. I'd also like to use the Docs conference room (2008) on the Talk server[3] to speed through some ideas. Please verify that you can access this server as well. If you have any problems or questions please let me know. I'm planning on working from my home office tomorrow which means I should be up on IRC (in #fedora-docs) for most of the day and will also be next to my phone (on Talk 510-2043) if you would like to test your connection or have any questions.
I appreciate everyone's participation in this most excellent Project!
Thanks, Eric
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_Steering_Committee_meetings [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Gobby [3] http://talk.fedoraproject.org
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:43:25AM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
I have further updated the agenda for tomorrow's meeting[1]. If you have an opinion on how the Beta Announcement should read or what tool(s) we will use to publish our documentation then you should be there!
I have an update that is a potential show stopper. According to this page:
https://translate.fedoraproject.org/tx/projects/docs-release-notes/master/
... building with Publican means no translation using common L10n infrastructure. Each translator would have to 'git clone' the repository or otherwise submit PO files more manually.
So that's a patch to Transifex needed for Publican; a few patches to Publican to make it produce RPMs compliant to Fedora Packaging Guidelines; and package freeze is coming very quickly on 14 April.
I'd also like to use the Docs conference room (2008) on the Talk server[3] to speed through some ideas.
Some alarm bells went off last time we used the Talk server and made decisions. I heard from a few people who were surprised about the process and missed the follow-up to the mailing list. I don't think a summary of that discussion quite made it to the list. We have that as a minimum requirement.
The issue with using Talk for a regular team meeting is that it raises barriers to participation, segregates the discussion, and has no recording/logging capability.
Even if recording were enabled, we would still have the barrier of spoken language being much harder to understand to non-native speakers. Where an IRC log can be run through a translation engine to get the gist of a discussion, that is nearly impossible with an audio meeting.
I understand and agree with the value we get from high bandwidth verbal discussions, but is the added value worth all that we lose?
- Karsten
On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 09:33 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:43:25AM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
I have further updated the agenda for tomorrow's meeting[1]. If you have an opinion on how the Beta Announcement should read or what tool(s) we will use to publish our documentation then you should be there!
I have an update that is a potential show stopper. According to this page:
https://translate.fedoraproject.org/tx/projects/docs-release-notes/master/
... building with Publican means no translation using common L10n infrastructure. Each translator would have to 'git clone' the repository or otherwise submit PO files more manually.
So that's a patch to Transifex needed for Publican; a few patches to Publican to make it produce RPMs compliant to Fedora Packaging Guidelines; and package freeze is coming very quickly on 14 April.
So those are pretty big problems. We need to hash this problem out at tonight's meeting.
I'd also like to use the Docs conference room (2008) on the Talk server[3] to speed through some ideas.
Some alarm bells went off last time we used the Talk server and made decisions. I heard from a few people who were surprised about the process and missed the follow-up to the mailing list. I don't think a summary of that discussion quite made it to the list. We have that as a minimum requirement.
The issue with using Talk for a regular team meeting is that it raises barriers to participation, segregates the discussion, and has no recording/logging capability.
Even if recording were enabled, we would still have the barrier of spoken language being much harder to understand to non-native speakers. Where an IRC log can be run through a translation engine to get the gist of a discussion, that is nearly impossible with an audio meeting.
I understand and agree with the value we get from high bandwidth verbal discussions, but is the added value worth all that we lose?
While I agree that there may be a higher barrier to participation I think the benefits of having a real-time conversation that isn't typing based would help with discussing issues. I agree that we need to have a scribe taking minutes to post to the list and to the wiki to maintain a record of what has happened. Right now we routinely carry items from week to week because the discussion takes so long via typed words. Plus I feel as if there is a greater risk at misunderstanding someone's typed words when written in a quick manner like we do in IRC.
What is keeping people from participating utilizing Talk?
- Karsten
Eric
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 01:07:44PM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
On Wed, 2009-03-25 at 09:33 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:43:25AM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
I have further updated the agenda for tomorrow's meeting[1]. If you have an opinion on how the Beta Announcement should read or what tool(s) we will use to publish our documentation then you should be there!
I have an update that is a potential show stopper. According to this page:
https://translate.fedoraproject.org/tx/projects/docs-release-notes/master/
... building with Publican means no translation using common L10n infrastructure. Each translator would have to 'git clone' the repository or otherwise submit PO files more manually.
So that's a patch to Transifex needed for Publican; a few patches to Publican to make it produce RPMs compliant to Fedora Packaging Guidelines; and package freeze is coming very quickly on 14 April.
So those are pretty big problems. We need to hash this problem out at tonight's meeting.
Yes, I've been asking about the changes needed to Transifex to support Publican. The Transifex team maintains that they are fairly minor but they are looking for help to make those changes because they have a number of other priorities to handle on their roadmap. Some of the Red Hat I18n folks who are being asked to devote time to making the changes say that there's a more substantial chunk of work needed.
Not being a coder I have no way to tell what's correct, but Dimitris Glezos pointed me directly at this code, that I think allows multi-POT group stats calculation. If I understand Dimitris correctly, the changes required to the back end and UI to do delivery and submission of multi-POT modules would be in a similar vein.
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 09:33:42AM -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:43:25AM -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
I have further updated the agenda for tomorrow's meeting[1]. If you have an opinion on how the Beta Announcement should read or what tool(s) we will use to publish our documentation then you should be there!
I have an update that is a potential show stopper. According to this page:
https://translate.fedoraproject.org/tx/projects/docs-release-notes/master/
... building with Publican means no translation using common L10n infrastructure. Each translator would have to 'git clone' the repository or otherwise submit PO files more manually.
Sorry, sorry, this was my brain breaking. Please allow me to correct myself before someone else does. :)
**Submitting translations works** to a Publican-based document from Transifex.
**Statistics tracking on the web page doesn't work** because Transifex doesn't support the the PO file structure that Publican uses.
This is not a blocker for getting translations in.
It is a regression of the translator experience. Instead of using the WebUI for all of their progress tracking, translators have to use command line tools.
Recall that the majority of translators are non-native English speakers; teaching them a one-off method to use for just this release is a lot more work than patching Transifex.
Also, recall that while documents have a lot of strings to translate compared to software, document modules are a small percentage of the total number of modules a translation team is working with. It's a disproportionately large % of the work effort, and requires translators and team leads to leave the WebUI for a disproportionately small % of the modules being tracked.
If we can get some help to patch Transifex to handle Publican-based PO files for statistics, this would be a big win for all involved.
- Karsten
On Tue, 2009-03-24 at 19:11 -0400, Eric Christensen wrote:
For tomorrow's meeting I'd like to use Gobby[1] and the Talk[2] server to complete the Beta Announcement as there seems to be some differing of opinions on what needs to be included.
Does anyone have any problems with using either of these resources for tomorrow's meeting?
Eric
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Gobby [2] http://talk.fedoraproject.org
Change in plans. We will start tonight's meeting in Gobby (no Talk) to finish the Beta Announcement and will then move the meeting over to IRC. I would like to get everyone's input on the Beta Announcement so please sign in and let's get that finished tonight. The document is up now so you should be able to log in and see everything.
Thanks, Eric
-
Eric Christensen -
Karsten Wade -
Paul W. Frields