10:09 a.m.
Everyone:
This might seem a little beyond scope to most of you, but:
Windows XP is approaching its own EOL.
Steven J. Vaughn-Nichols released this article:
http://www.zdnet.com/five-operating-system-alternatives-to-windows-8-and-...
at ZDNet: Five OS alternatives to Windows 8 and Windows XP. And they
are, in his view:
5. Using AndroidOS or iOS in a tablet. (In his view: /not/ for the
"information producer." Looking things up is one thing. But creating the
things for others to look up is quite another.)
4. Mac
3. Linux
2. Google ChromeOS, which he describes as the Chrome browser running
on a bare-bones Linux desktop and accessing Google's SaaS offerings.
1. Windows 7. Interesting: he doesn't recommend going all the way to
Windows 8.
And at the bottom, he adds this:
(Quote)
You should keep in mind that in the long run, it appears Microsoft
really does want to switch you over to a Metro-style interface as part
of the "evolution" of Windows 8. If that idea gives you hives, then now
is the time to start looking for alternatives.
(Unquote)
Vaughn-Nichols gives this link:
http://www.zdnet.com/no-windows-desktop-mode-no-7000013099/
Temlakos
9:03 a.m.
On Thursday 11 April 2013 14:55:01 Tim wrote:
Allegedly, on or about 11 April 2013, Michael Leung sent:
> I am thinking about some linux based opensource tablet os.
I'm not... It's an utterly useless machine for almost everything that I
do.
I can't see what this would give you over the Android already installed. I
have a SSH/telnet client, a VNC client, a VPN client all running under
Android. What else do you need on a tablet apart from a pool app and a flight
sim?????
--
Gary Stainburn
Group I.T. Manager
Ringways Garages
http://www.ringways.co.uk
8:25 a.m.
I am thinking about some linux based opensource tablet os.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 16:43 +1000, Michael Leung wrote:
> Now is a post-pc era.
I've never been in the major computing rat race, I've always used the
alternatives (never had a C64, used Amiga when Windows became all the
rage, Linux later on, and other things before we had personal computers
that we'd recognise today). There's always been something different.
It's rarely been a competitor on an even footing, but existed for many
years because people did want something different. I don't see that
situation going away. There will always be some alternative, and Linux
needs to stay being an alternative, not a clone of the world's worst
operating system ever foisted upon the public.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
--
users mailing list
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To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
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Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
--
Regards,
Michael Leung
http://www.itblogs.info - My IT Blog
http://diary.skynovel.info - My Blog
http://www.michaelleung.info - My Homepage
11:27 a.m.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 05:49:25PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
see above - you responded to "I'm not... It's an
utterly useless machine for
almost everything that I do" - so you have learned to make your context clear
in the message you write and not in the message you thought you write
Sarcasm?
--
Suvayu
Open source is the future. It sets us free.
10:45 a.m.
On Thursday 11 April 2013 15:39:15 Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 11.04.2013 16:03, schrieb Gary Stainburn:
> On Thursday 11 April 2013 14:55:01 Tim wrote:
>> Allegedly, on or about 11 April 2013, Michael Leung sent:
>>> I am thinking about some linux based opensource tablet os.
>>
>> I'm not... It's an utterly useless machine for almost everything that
I
>> do.
>
> I can't see what this would give you over the Android already installed.
> I have a SSH/telnet client, a VNC client, a VPN client all running under
> Android. What else do you need on a tablet apart from a pool app and a
> flight sim?????
sounds like you are never done serious work on your computer
i have Android and VNC/RDP/SSH too but it is a nightmare doing
serious work on a touch-display and it is a nightmare to work
with a browser-based CMS
nobody which works all day long with his computer will ever use
smartphones or tablets for this and when a remote-session to
a powerful machine does not fit the workload even not with
a external keyboard and a large screen attached
these are nice devices fpr by-the-way-work, not more and not less
Reindl
I think that you have missed the point. I completely agree with you that
using a tablet as a proper work horse is a none-starter. That is *why* I said
that there is no point going to the effort of replacing the already competent
enough Android OS with Linux as the increase in functionality would be
minimal. (I wouldn't be without my peoper qwerty touch keyboard app and don't
know what a Linux equiv would be like)
I love my tablet because it is always on and always there, as is my Galaxy S2
phone which also has these apps (less the keyboard app as the keys would be
minute). However, as far as I'm concerned there will not be for some time to
come a suitable replacement for my traditional Fedora/KDE laptop.
As for never doing serious work on my computer, you know absolutely jack s**t
about me or my 25 years in the business.
Gary
9:39 a.m.
Am 11.04.2013 16:03, schrieb Gary Stainburn:
On Thursday 11 April 2013 14:55:01 Tim wrote:
> Allegedly, on or about 11 April 2013, Michael Leung sent:
>> I am thinking about some linux based opensource tablet os.
>
> I'm not... It's an utterly useless machine for almost everything that I
> do.
I can't see what this would give you over the Android already installed. I
have a SSH/telnet client, a VNC client, a VPN client all running under
Android. What else do you need on a tablet apart from a pool app and a flight
sim?????
sounds like you are never done serious work on your computer
i have Android and VNC/RDP/SSH too but it is a nightmare doing
serious work on a touch-display and it is a nightmare to work
with a browser-based CMS
nobody which works all day long with his computer will ever use
smartphones or tablets for this and when a remote-session to
a powerful machine does not fit the workload even not with
a external keyboard and a large screen attached
these are nice devices fpr by-the-way-work, not more and not less
6:04 p.m.
Hi Gary,
Just a few thoughts from my own experiences.
I also support a network of WinXP machines (40+, so fewer than yours).
I use FOG ( http://www.fogproject.org/ ) to automate tasks and re-image
the machines, and everything runs quite smoothly.
Some time ago, I tested a Fedora install with VMware Workstation running
our WinXP image for the Windows-only apps (CAD, Sketchp), and it worked
really well;
- the only problem was strong resistance from stubborn users.
You can also run IE on Linux machines under Wine, but I understand that
only 6, 7, and 8 are supported that way (however, it is always possible
to address that on your own machine, so my experience is that you
*could* get IE9 working as well)
Alternatively you could run a VM which contains Windows and IE. See the
following link for more details, including a link for MS-provided VMs:
http://www.rdeeson.com/weblog/126/how-to-run-internet-explorer-7-8-and-9-...
If you are happy with Fedora, you can install it and leave it for 12-18
months, and then update when you've found a stable version of the latest
Fedora release. Since you don't want to update all the time (eg every 15
minutes), the fact that the repos of your installed version will
disappear isn't really a major problem.
I have recently installed Stella at 2 other sites. Stella is a desktop
spin of Centos - basically it is to Centos what I understand Mint is to
Ubuntu.
Stella is really simple to install (simpler and quicker than Fedora for
example), and has >90% of what I want already installed - and far less
unwanted stuff.
So far, I am really happy with Stella on the desktop and ClearOS (also
CentOS based) on the servers.
I am gradually adding features to FOG to improve support for linux
machines (both desktop and servers).
The only real-world installation of thin clients that I have seen was in
someone's home (3-5 workstations). They used LTSP, and it has been
working really well.
I am still looking at LTSP myself, but with the ease of management I get
from FOG, I'm not sure I would get much benefit.
My experience with Macs is mixed: many Mac users love them; they are not
too difficult to support; and while the early versions of Safari and
Mail were useless, we just installed Firefox and Thunderbird, and all
was good.
I can't say the same for iPhones. Trying to bend our infrastructure to
work the way iPhones demand is way too much effort. Android phones are
much easier - and that is despite having to install 5 or 6 apps to get
support for all the protocols eg, WebDav, ICS, etc.
Hope this helps,
Cheers!
Nik
On 04/12/2013 12:01 AM, Gary Stainburn wrote:
I still have 70+ users running WinXP and for the moment have no plans
to
change them just because support will cease. I'm sure there are others in a
similar situation.
I would love to move all 200+ users to Linux + LibreOffice but I'm stuck with
having to use Internet Explorer 8/9 for the application we use to run our
business. The providers have specifically written the application to work
with IE but even then have to "mend" it for each new release.
Having said that I'm not sure I would use Fedora as the release/update cycle
would be a nightmare to administer for 200+ seats. I would be interested to
hear people's comments on which dist would be better for desktop (non-IT)
users. Centos? Mint?
I do have two Macbooks in the company and I do like the look and feel of them
but to be honest I'm glad I don't have to *use* them. They're not used by
what I could call "business users" tho so I don't know how they would
perform
in the real world.
I'm yet to be convinced about thin clients, be they ChromeOS or any of the
other cloud based ones. I would be interested to hear of real world examples
of it working tho.
On Thursday 11 April 2013 14:25:01 Michael Leung wrote:
> I am thinking about some linux based opensource tablet os.
>
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 16:43 +1000, Michael Leung wrote:
>>> Now is a post-pc era.
>> I've never been in the major computing rat race, I've always used the
>> alternatives (never had a C64, used Amiga when Windows became all the
>> rage, Linux later on, and other things before we had personal computers
>> that we'd recognise today). There's always been something different.
>> It's rarely been a competitor on an even footing, but existed for many
>> years because people did want something different. I don't see that
>> situation going away. There will always be some alternative, and Linux
>> needs to stay being an alternative, not a clone of the world's worst
>> operating system ever foisted upon the public.
>>
>> --
>> [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
>> 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
>>
>> Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
>> read messages from the public lists.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> users mailing list
>> users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
>> Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>> Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
11:42 p.m.
On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 15:01 +0100, Gary Stainburn wrote:
but I'm stuck with having to use Internet Explorer 8/9 for the
application we use to run our business. The providers have
specifically written the application to work with IE but even then
have to "mend" it for each new release.
There's your problem... (half sarcastic, half groan). Whenever someone
writes applications for specific applications, it is going to be very
specific, even down to specific versions. On the other hand, when they
write, properly, to ratified specifications (HTML, JavaScript, Java,
etc.), it's far more likely to work on all the browsers, and not just
specific versions of them. But then they won't want to do that, because
they'll want to be re-hired to do the updates, ad infinitum.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
6:55 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Nik Trevallyn-Jones <
fedora(a)babel.homelinux.net> wrote:
Hi Gary,
Just a few thoughts from my own experiences.
I also support a network of WinXP machines (40+, so fewer than yours).
I use FOG ( http://www.fogproject.org/ ) to automate tasks and re-image
the machines, and everything runs quite smoothly.
Some time ago, I tested a Fedora install with VMware Workstation running
our WinXP image for the Windows-only apps (CAD, Sketchp), and it worked
really well;
- the only problem was strong resistance from stubborn users.
You can also run IE on Linux machines under Wine, but I understand that
only 6, 7, and 8 are supported that way (however, it is always possible to
address that on your own machine, so my experience is that you *could* get
IE9 working as well)
Alternatively you could run a VM which contains Windows and IE. See the
following link for more details, including a link for MS-provided VMs:
http://www.rdeeson.com/weblog/**126/how-to-run-internet-**
explorer-7-8-and-9-in-linux-**with-or-without-wine.html<http://www.rde...
If you are happy with Fedora, you can install it and leave it for 12-18
months, and then update when you've found a stable version of the latest
Fedora release. Since you don't want to update all the time (eg every 15
minutes), the fact that the repos of your installed version will disappear
isn't really a major problem.
I have recently installed Stella at 2 other sites. Stella is a desktop
spin of Centos - basically it is to Centos what I understand Mint is to
Ubuntu.
Stella is really simple to install (simpler and quicker than Fedora for
example), and has >90% of what I want already installed - and far less
unwanted stuff.
So far, I am really happy with Stella on the desktop and ClearOS (also
CentOS based) on the servers.
I am gradually adding features to FOG to improve support for linux
machines (both desktop and servers).
The only real-world installation of thin clients that I have seen was in
someone's home (3-5 workstations). They used LTSP, and it has been working
really well.
I am still looking at LTSP myself, but with the ease of management I get
from FOG, I'm not sure I would get much benefit.
My experience with Macs is mixed: many Mac users love them; they are not
too difficult to support; and while the early versions of Safari and Mail
were useless, we just installed Firefox and Thunderbird, and all was good.
I can't say the same for iPhones. Trying to bend our infrastructure to
work the way iPhones demand is way too much effort. Android phones are much
easier - and that is despite having to install 5 or 6 apps to get support
for all the protocols eg, WebDav, ICS, etc.
Hope this helps,
What ever happened to bottom-posting? This last post reads like it was
written on a computer verses on a Blackberry phone. Could we please stick
to bottom-posting unless on a Blackberry, ? and could those on a Blackberry
please continue to tell us until this company gets the problem fixed? and
if you have an Android, or are on your computers, would you please bottom
post?
Thanks. This would be a tremendous help for those following along.
Richard.
PS I sent Blackberry a note on this demanding they fix it before I pick up
one of their devices, and perhaps those who own one could politely tell
them to do the same.
10:46 a.m.
Am 12.04.2013 17:37, schrieb Gary Stainburn:
> Some time ago, I tested a Fedora install with VMware Workstation
running
> our WinXP image for the Windows-only apps (CAD, Sketchp), and it worked
> really well;
> - the only problem was strong resistance from stubborn users.
How does running Windows apps over VMWare over Linux give any benefits? Surely
you still need WinXP but have added two extra layers?
you have one rock-solid system and can do as much as possible
with linux, if you really need things to do which you know how
on windows but currently not on linux NOW you can wake up the
windows guest
that's the workflow
_____________________________
* snapshots
* easy backups of the whole windows
* easy restore of the whole windows
* clone machines for different usecases
* avoid dealing with different hardware and drivers
* provide compareable installations where tests are predictable
that's the additional benefits
these days you do the same with Linux as guest
these days you even virtualize complete production networks
these days you do not install devel-packages and compilers
on your working machine, you start the rpm-build environemnt
in a snapshotable virtual machine and distribute only the binaries
hence anything which can be virtualized these days is virtualized
and someone who started to do this regulary will never go back
to physical installs for things which can be virtualized
10:37 a.m.
Nik
I'm sorry if my comments sound negative but I can't see how many of the things
you suggest would give any benefits. I would appreciate it if you could
explain better for me.
On Friday 12 April 2013 00:04:34 Nik Trevallyn-Jones wrote:
Hi Gary,
Just a few thoughts from my own experiences.
I also support a network of WinXP machines (40+, so fewer than yours).
I use FOG ( http://www.fogproject.org/ ) to automate tasks and re-image
the machines, and everything runs quite smoothly.
I'm missing the point of FOG. How does it help what is basically a static
WinXP estate, and how does it ease licensing as stated by the FOG web site?
Some time ago, I tested a Fedora install with VMware Workstation
running
our WinXP image for the Windows-only apps (CAD, Sketchp), and it worked
really well;
- the only problem was strong resistance from stubborn users.
How does running Windows apps over VMWare over Linux give any benefits? Surely
you still need WinXP but have added two extra layers?
You can also run IE on Linux machines under Wine, but I understand that
only 6, 7, and 8 are supported that way (however, it is always possible
to address that on your own machine, so my experience is that you
*could* get IE9 working as well)
I have looked at Wine before but not for a very long time. Are there idiots
guides for Wine to help me have another go? Where do we stand with licensing
for IE when not on a Windows platform?
How solid is it, especially on sites developed using .NET?
Alternatively you could run a VM which contains Windows and IE. See
the
following link for more details, including a link for MS-provided VMs:
http://www.rdeeson.com/weblog/126/how-to-run-internet-explorer-7-8-and-9-in
-linux-with-or-without-wine.html
Again, I don't see the benefits of running Windows inside a VM. However, I
will look at Wine and also the link above.
If you are happy with Fedora, you can install it and leave it for 12-18
months, and then update when you've found a stable version of the latest
Fedora release. Since you don't want to update all the time (eg every 15
minutes), the fact that the repos of your installed version will
disappear isn't really a major problem.
That is a valid point. I still have Fedora servers running 7, 9, 11 and 13 and
they are still all fit for purpose. One of my internal web servers has 898
days uptime. How many Windows based boxes can claim that?
[snip]
My experience with Macs is mixed: many Mac users love them; they are
not
too difficult to support; and while the early versions of Safari and
Mail were useless, we just installed Firefox and Thunderbird, and all
was good.
I can't say the same for iPhones. Trying to bend our infrastructure to
work the way iPhones demand is way too much effort. Android phones are
much easier - and that is despite having to install 5 or 6 apps to get
support for all the protocols eg, WebDav, ICS, etc.
I agree with you completely. I am very impressed with the Apple support I get
if I have problems on the MacBooks but I hate having to try to bend my
networks around the iphones. Blackberry still win hands down when it comes to
handling business standard email services. I just wish they'd improve the UI
Unfortunately, the managers here will not even consider android. Having said
that, I don't know of a business grade email solution for android phones
either (but haven't really looked). Android's dependancy on cloud / internet
connectivity is a serious limitation in business in my opinion.
2:39 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 09:20:01PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 11.04.2013 21:14, schrieb Joe Zeff:
> On 04/11/2013 11:55 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> sarcasm on mailing lists without smileys or whatever indication
>> is pretty dumb - there is not "but" and no "if", it is dumb
>
> IMAO, if you can't make your intentions clear without smileys, you should learn
how to express yourself better. Of
> course, one of my hobbies is writing, and I've completed NaNoWriMo six times
bullshit in case of a mailing-list with readers all over the world
if you make sarcsam mark it or shut up is the rule in this context
He Did. Try reading the *whole* post.
--
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279
9:22 a.m.
On Friday 12 April 2013 15:06:07 Tim wrote:
Failing that, if there's an option to not include any of the
prior
message in the reply, that's better than mass top quoting.
--
I've just had a look on my Blackberry and it does have the option to "delete
original text". You could combine that with copy/paste to reply with in-line
comments but it would be a pain.
I can't access my kmail based emails via my android phone and really don't
want to do it through GMail which isn't much fun either so I can't use my
phone or tablet so it's back to using my trusty laptop for list posts.
I agree that bottom or in-line posting is still the best and most logical way
but I also agree that most non-techy, business types prefer top posting. I
think it's either too much effort or too complicated to scroll down and
decipher replies mixed in OP's
--
Gary Stainburn
Group I.T. Manager
Ringways Garages
http://www.ringways.co.uk
9:36 a.m.
Am 12.04.2013 15:32, schrieb Aaron Konstam:
One anoyance however is that wine will not run 64bit Window
applications
and what do think why there are wine.i686 and wine.x86_64 packages?
Name : wine
Arch : x86_64
Version : 1.5.24
Release : 1.fc18
Size : 41 k
Repo : updates/18/x86_64
Summary : A compatibility layer for windows applications
URL : http://www.winehq.org/
License : LGPLv2+
Description : Wine as a compatibility layer for UNIX to run Windows applications. This
: package includes a program loader, which allows unmodified Windows
: 3.x/9x/NT binaries to run on x86 and x86_64 Unixes. Wine can use native
system
: .dll files if they are available.
:
: In Fedora wine is a meta-package which will install everything needed for
wine
: to work smoothly. Smaller setups can be achieved by installing some of the
: wine-* sub packages.
mingw64-wine-gecko.noarch : Gecko library for 64bit wine
q4wine.x86_64 : Qt4 GUI for wine
wine-alsa.x86_64 : Alsa support for wine
wine-capi.x86_64 : ISDN support for wine
wine-cms.x86_64 : Color Management for wine
wine-core.x86_64 : Wine core package
wine-courier-fonts.noarch : Wine Courier font family
wine-desktop.noarch : Desktop integration features for wine
wine-devel.x86_64 : Wine development environment
wine-docs.noarch : Documentation for wine
wine-filesystem.noarch : Filesystem directories for wine
wine-fonts.noarch : Wine font files
wine-ldap.x86_64 : LDAP support for wine
wine-marlett-fonts.noarch : Wine Marlett font family
wine-mono.noarch : Mono library required for Wine
wine-ms-sans-serif-fonts.noarch : Wine MS Sans Serif font family
wine-openal.x86_64 : Openal support for wine
wine-pulseaudio.x86_64 : Pulseaudio support for wine
wine-small-fonts.noarch : Wine Small font family
wine-symbol-fonts.noarch : Wine Symbol font family
wine-system-fonts.noarch : Wine System font family
wine-systemd.noarch : Systemd config for the wine binfmt handler
wine-sysvinit.noarch : SysV initscript for the wine binfmt handler
wine-tahoma-fonts.noarch : Wine Tahoma font family
wine-tahoma-fonts-system.noarch : Wine Tahoma font family system integration
wine-twain.x86_64 : Twain support for wine
wine-wow.x86_64 : Files for wine wow separation
wine.x86_64 : A compatibility layer for windows applications
9:17 a.m.
On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 16:55 -0700, Richard Vickery wrote:
What ever happened to bottom-posting? This last post reads like it
was
written on a computer verses on a Blackberry phone. Could we please
stick
to bottom-posting unless on a Blackberry, ? and could those on a
Blackberry
please continue to tell us until this company gets the problem fixed?
and
if you have an Android, or are on your computers, would you please
bottom
post?
+10e6 :-)
poc
9:06 a.m.
On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 16:55 -0700, Richard Vickery wrote:
What ever happened to bottom-posting? This last post reads like it
was
written on a computer verses on a Blackberry phone. Could we please
stick to bottom-posting unless on a Blackberry
Failing that, if there's an option to not include any of the prior
message in the reply, that's better than mass top quoting.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
3:59 a.m.
On 12 April 2013 06:01, Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
poma:
>> Lately half of the off topic threads ends with some sort of a mobile
>> agenda. :)
>> Is it really so attractive, or is it just a good job of marketing. :)
David:
> Perhaps a sign of the times? :-)
>
> And no I could not replace my desktop with a handheld. But... I can do
> one heck of a lot more of my 'away from my desk' business with my
> smartphone than just make phone calls.
Most of the time that I see someone playing with their $500 smart phone,
it's just a toy, or a music player. Business users are about the only
ones who actually use it as a tool.
Maps, train timetables, email on the go, just of the top of my head. I've
resisted getting one for quite some time, but it's becoming persuasive. I
find tablets less so.
Touch screen type of interfaces, don't work on non-touch screen
devices,
and are a bad interface for desktop or laptops. And the usual
interfaces that go along with them are appalling for multi-tasking.
This is spot on.
--
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
1:23 a.m.
On 04/11/2013 04:55 PM, Richard Vickery wrote:
and could those on a Blackberry please continue to tell us until
this
company gets the problem fixed?
I doubt that they consider it a problem. People in business find top
posting natural because they're used to reading things in paper files in
reverse chronological order.
12:01 a.m.
poma:
> Lately half of the off topic threads ends with some sort of a
mobile
> agenda. :)
> Is it really so attractive, or is it just a good job of marketing. :)
David:
Perhaps a sign of the times? :-)
And no I could not replace my desktop with a handheld. But... I can do
one heck of a lot more of my 'away from my desk' business with my
smartphone than just make phone calls.
Most of the time that I see someone playing with their $500 smart phone,
it's just a toy, or a music player. Business users are about the only
ones who actually use it as a tool.
It's all well and good developing Linux for these gadgets, but do that
as a separate thing. Develop an OS for a portable gadget, FOR those
portable gadgets. Don't stuff up an OS for a normal computer to be a
poor OS on both.
Touch screen type of interfaces, don't work on non-touch screen devices,
and are a bad interface for desktop or laptops. And the usual
interfaces that go along with them are appalling for multi-tasking. The
standing joke that to multitask using an iPad requires using more than
one iPad, isn't far from the truth. This is not a good design path to
go down.
It's probably time to define the desktop model (as in user interface,
commonly called Windows Managers) better. If your OS has a desktop
interface, it's for a computer. Handheld devices need a differently
named interface.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
1:44 p.m.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 07:33:14PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 11.04.2013 18:27, schrieb Suvayu Ali:
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 05:49:25PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> see above - you responded to "I'm not... It's an utterly useless
machine for
>> almost everything that I do" - so you have learned to make your context
clear
>> in the message you write and not in the message you thought you write
>
> Sarcasm?
what do you want to tell me with this dumb question?
read the post i replied the first time in the thread!
I am hinting that the post you responded to was meant to be sarcastic.
--
Suvayu
Open source is the future. It sets us free.
5:13 p.m.
On 4/11/2013 6:06 PM, poma wrote:
On 10.04.2013 17:09, Temlakos wrote:
> Everyone:
>
> This might seem a little beyond scope to most of you, but:
[…]
Lately half of the off topic threads ends with some sort of a mobile
agenda. :)
Is it really so attractive, or is it just a good job of marketing. :)
Perhaps a sign of the times? :-)
And no I could not replace my desktop with a handheld. But... I can do
one heck of a lot more of my 'away from my desk' business with my
smartphone than just make phone calls.
--
David
2:20 p.m.
Am 11.04.2013 21:14, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 04/11/2013 11:55 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> sarcasm on mailing lists without smileys or whatever indication
> is pretty dumb - there is not "but" and no "if", it is dumb
IMAO, if you can't make your intentions clear without smileys, you should learn how
to express yourself better. Of
course, one of my hobbies is writing, and I've completed NaNoWriMo six times
bullshit in case of a mailing-list with readers all over the world
if you make sarcsam mark it or shut up is the rule in this context
2:14 p.m.
On 04/11/2013 11:55 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
sarcasm on mailing lists without smileys or whatever indication
is pretty dumb - there is not "but" and no "if", it is dumb
IMAO, if you can't make your intentions clear without smileys, you
should learn how to express yourself better. Of course, one of my
hobbies is writing, and I've completed NaNoWriMo six times.
1:55 p.m.
Am 11.04.2013 20:44, schrieb Suvayu Ali:
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 07:33:14PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 11.04.2013 18:27, schrieb Suvayu Ali:
>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 05:49:25PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>> see above - you responded to "I'm not... It's an utterly
useless machine for
>>> almost everything that I do" - so you have learned to make your context
clear
>>> in the message you write and not in the message you thought you write
>>
>> Sarcasm?
>
> what do you want to tell me with this dumb question?
> read the post i replied the first time in the thread!
I am hinting that the post you responded to was meant to be sarcastic
sarcasm on mailing lists without smileys or whatever indication
is pretty dumb - there is not "but" and no "if", it is dumb
11:03 a.m.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Temlakos <temlakos(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Everyone:
This might seem a little beyond scope to most of you, but:
Windows XP is approaching its own EOL.
Steven J. Vaughn-Nichols released this article
Personally I don't give a rat's ass about what Microsoft-infiltrated
ZiffGatesNet (ZDNet) recommends or stops recommending, even if by pure
chance one article happens to slightly match my interests
I recommend you change your reading habits...
FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un
Acto Revolucionario
- George Orwell
10:49 a.m.
Am 11.04.2013 17:45, schrieb Gary Stainburn:
On Thursday 11 April 2013 15:39:15 Reindl Harald wrote:
> Am 11.04.2013 16:03, schrieb Gary Stainburn:
>> On Thursday 11 April 2013 14:55:01 Tim wrote:
>>> Allegedly, on or about 11 April 2013, Michael Leung sent:
>>>> I am thinking about some linux based opensource tablet os.
>>>
>>> I'm not... It's an utterly useless machine for almost everything
that I
>>> do.
>>
>> I can't see what this would give you over the Android already installed.
>> I have a SSH/telnet client, a VNC client, a VPN client all running under
>> Android. What else do you need on a tablet apart from a pool app and a
>> flight sim?????
>
> sounds like you are never done serious work on your computer
>
> i have Android and VNC/RDP/SSH too but it is a nightmare doing
> serious work on a touch-display and it is a nightmare to work
> with a browser-based CMS
>
> nobody which works all day long with his computer will ever use
> smartphones or tablets for this and when a remote-session to
> a powerful machine does not fit the workload even not with
> a external keyboard and a large screen attached
>
> these are nice devices fpr by-the-way-work, not more and not less
Reindl
I think that you have missed the point. I completely agree with you that
using a tablet as a proper work horse is a none-starter. That is *why* I said
that there is no point going to the effort of replacing the already competent
enough Android OS with Linux as the increase in functionality would be
minimal. (I wouldn't be without my peoper qwerty touch keyboard app and don't
know what a Linux equiv would be like)
i do not see this in the post i responded to adn especially
not in the context you responded before
As for never doing serious work on my computer, you know absolutely
jack s**t
about me or my 25 years in the business
see above - you responded to "I'm not... It's an utterly useless machine
for
almost everything that I do" - so you have learned to make your context clear
in the message you write and not in the message you thought you write
8:55 a.m.
Allegedly, on or about 11 April 2013, Michael Leung sent:
I am thinking about some linux based opensource tablet os.
I'm not... It's an utterly useless machine for almost everything that I
do.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.4-102.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Mar 24 13:09:09 UTC 2013 x86_64
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.
5:32 a.m.
On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 16:43 +1000, Michael Leung wrote:
Now is a post-pc era.
I've never been in the major computing rat race, I've always used the
alternatives (never had a C64, used Amiga when Windows became all the
rage, Linux later on, and other things before we had personal computers
that we'd recognise today). There's always been something different.
It's rarely been a competitor on an even footing, but existed for many
years because people did want something different. I don't see that
situation going away. There will always be some alternative, and Linux
needs to stay being an alternative, not a clone of the world's worst
operating system ever foisted upon the public.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
1:43 a.m.
Now is a post-pc era.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Wed, 2013-04-10 at 11:09 -0400, Temlakos wrote:
> 2. Google ChromeOS, which he describes as the Chrome browser
> running on a bare-bones Linux desktop and accessing Google's SaaS
> offerings.
Bearing in mind another thread on this list, about excessive bandwidth
use (Apple and iCloud, in the block iCloud thread), I'd be surprised if
this didn't present a similar problem - all your computing activities
using a *lot* of bandwidth, far more than what we do already.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
--
users mailing list
users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
--
Regards,
Michael Leung
http://www.itblogs.info - My IT Blog
http://diary.skynovel.info - My Blog
http://www.michaelleung.info - My Homepage
9:19 p.m.
On Wed, 2013-04-10 at 11:09 -0400, Temlakos wrote:
2. Google ChromeOS, which he describes as the Chrome browser
running on a bare-bones Linux desktop and accessing Google's SaaS
offerings.
Bearing in mind another thread on this list, about excessive bandwidth
use (Apple and iCloud, in the block iCloud thread), I'd be surprised if
this didn't present a similar problem - all your computing activities
using a *lot* of bandwidth, far more than what we do already.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
8:32 a.m.
On Fri, 2013-04-12 at 09:04 +1000, Nik Trevallyn-Jones wrote:
Hi Gary,
Just a few thoughts from my own experiences.
I also support a network of WinXP machines (40+, so fewer than yours).
I use FOG ( http://www.fogproject.org/ ) to automate tasks and re-image
the machines, and everything runs quite smoothly.
Some time ago, I tested a Fedora install with VMware Workstation running
our WinXP image for the Windows-only apps (CAD, Sketchp), and it worked
really well;
- the only problem was strong resistance from stubborn users.
You can also run IE on Linux machines under Wine, but I understand that
only 6, 7, and 8 are supported that way (however, it is always possible
to address that on your own machine, so my experience is that you
*could* get IE9 working as well)
Alternatively you could run a VM which contains Windows and IE. See the
following link for more details, including a link for MS-provided VMs:
http://www.rdeeson.com/weblog/126/how-to-run-internet-explorer-7-8-and-9-...
If you are happy with Fedora, you can install it and leave it for 12-18
months, and then update when you've found a stable version of the latest
Fedora release. Since you don't want to update all the time (eg every 15
minutes), the fact that the repos of your installed version will
disappear isn't really a major problem.
I have recently installed Stella at 2 other sites. Stella is a desktop
spin of Centos - basically it is to Centos what I understand Mint is to
Ubuntu.
Stella is really simple to install (simpler and quicker than Fedora for
example), and has >90% of what I want already installed - and far less
unwanted stuff.
So far, I am really happy with Stella on the desktop and ClearOS (also
CentOS based) on the servers.
I am gradually adding features to FOG to improve support for linux
machines (both desktop and servers).
The only real-world installation of thin clients that I have seen was in
someone's home (3-5 workstations). They used LTSP, and it has been
working really well.
I am still looking at LTSP myself, but with the ease of management I get
from FOG, I'm not sure I would get much benefit.
My experience with Macs is mixed: many Mac users love them; they are not
too difficult to support; and while the early versions of Safari and
Mail were useless, we just installed Firefox and Thunderbird, and all
was good.
I can't say the same for iPhones. Trying to bend our infrastructure to
work the way iPhones demand is way too much effort. Android phones are
much easier - and that is despite having to install 5 or 6 apps to get
support for all the protocols eg, WebDav, ICS, etc.
Hope this helps,
Cheers!
Nik
One anoyance however is that wine will not run 64bit Window
applications.
--
=======================================================================
The only disadvantage I see is that it would force everyone to get Perl.
Horrors. :-) -- Larry Wall in <8854(a)jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
9:01 a.m.
I still have 70+ users running WinXP and for the moment have no plans to
change them just because support will cease. I'm sure there are others in a
similar situation.
I would love to move all 200+ users to Linux + LibreOffice but I'm stuck with
having to use Internet Explorer 8/9 for the application we use to run our
business. The providers have specifically written the application to work
with IE but even then have to "mend" it for each new release.
Having said that I'm not sure I would use Fedora as the release/update cycle
would be a nightmare to administer for 200+ seats. I would be interested to
hear people's comments on which dist would be better for desktop (non-IT)
users. Centos? Mint?
I do have two Macbooks in the company and I do like the look and feel of them
but to be honest I'm glad I don't have to *use* them. They're not used by
what I could call "business users" tho so I don't know how they would
perform
in the real world.
I'm yet to be convinced about thin clients, be they ChromeOS or any of the
other cloud based ones. I would be interested to hear of real world examples
of it working tho.
On Thursday 11 April 2013 14:25:01 Michael Leung wrote:
I am thinking about some linux based opensource tablet os.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 16:43 +1000, Michael Leung wrote:
> > Now is a post-pc era.
>
> I've never been in the major computing rat race, I've always used the
> alternatives (never had a C64, used Amiga when Windows became all the
> rage, Linux later on, and other things before we had personal computers
> that we'd recognise today). There's always been something different.
> It's rarely been a competitor on an even footing, but existed for many
> years because people did want something different. I don't see that
> situation going away. There will always be some alternative, and Linux
> needs to stay being an alternative, not a clone of the world's worst
> operating system ever foisted upon the public.
>
> --
> [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
> 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
>
> Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
> read messages from the public lists.
>
>
>
> --
> users mailing list
> users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
--
Gary Stainburn
Group I.T. Manager
Ringways Garages
http://www.ringways.co.uk
12:56 p.m.
On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 12:03 -0400, Fernando Cassia wrote:
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Temlakos <temlakos(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Everyone:
>
> This might seem a little beyond scope to most of you, but:
>
> Windows XP is approaching its own EOL.
>
> Steven J. Vaughn-Nichols released this article
Personally I don't give a rat's ass about what Microsoft-infiltrated
ZiffGatesNet (ZDNet) recommends or stops recommending, even if by pure
chance one article happens to slightly match my interests
I recommend you change your reading habits...
Although I don't read the publication in question, Steven Vaughn-Nichols
has been a strong Linux advocate for many years.
So a report about him recommending Linux is a bit of a non-event.
poc
12:51 p.m.
On 04/11/2013 08:45 AM, Gary Stainburn wrote:
I think that you have missed the point. I completely agree with you
that
using a tablet as a proper work horse is a none-starter. That is*why* I said
that there is no point going to the effort of replacing the already competent
enough Android OS with Linux as the increase in functionality would be
minimal. (I wouldn't be without my peoper qwerty touch keyboard app and don't
know what a Linux equiv would be like)
To clarify: there would be no point in replacing Android with Linux *on
tablets* because it wouldn't make them any more (or less) productive.
12:33 p.m.
Am 11.04.2013 18:27, schrieb Suvayu Ali:
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 05:49:25PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> see above - you responded to "I'm not... It's an utterly useless
machine for
> almost everything that I do" - so you have learned to make your context clear
> in the message you write and not in the message you thought you write
Sarcasm?
what do you want to tell me with this dumb question?
read the post i replied the first time in the thread!
4037
days inactive
4039
days old
36 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
Aaron Konstam -
Bob Holtzman -
David -
Fernando Cassia -
Gary Stainburn -
Ian Malone -
Joe Zeff -
Michael Leung -
Nik Trevallyn-Jones -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
poma -
Reindl Harald -
Richard Vickery -
Suvayu Ali -
Temlakos -
Tim