Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
3:15 p.m.
I love this Fedora-14, and everything Red Hat, but Fedora-15 is a lot
like those vile Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use
with ease, and gosh awful gaudy... Sorry, but to me it just is.. I
tried it for a week, and formatted it off the hard drive, and snapped
the CD in-two.. And I'm told that F-14 dies in a few months, which I
suppose means that there won't be any more security an function
updates.. A sad day on planet-earth when F-14 dies...
Would someone please tell me.. Why is F-15 such a mess..? The worst
thing is the jumbled up desktop..
And there's nothing in right click.. And you can't run two home files
simultaneous.. I need that for script and photo editing... You can't
remove a desktop image from the file.. You can't delete the top
toolbar, nor the other bits of junk, to make a clean desktop... Office
isn't in the program options... All in all Fedora-15 is a mess as far
as I'm concerned... No offence meant in the slightest to the geniuses
and lords at Red Hat.. I love the Linux core people for what they do
for humanity, but this F-15 is a very bad change.. I just can't use
that horrid F-15 OS.. It fights me.. It feels like it hates me.. It
doesn't do what I need an OS to do.. F-15 is a just a big mistake..
You'll see...
--
http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be
1:23 p.m.
On 09/02/2011 07:31 AM, Stefan Held wrote:
Am Freitag, den 02.09.2011, 09:44 -0400 schrieb Darryl L. Pierce:
> Great points. If we didn't have change and innovation we'd all still be
> using 80x25 monochrome text mode terminals.
What was wrong with 80x25
monochrome? I liked the Hercules display :).
No, but seriously, Gnome3 is irritating. To have to click on Activities
to change and repaint the whole screen, and then select the category of
an item you want (if you have not added it to your favorites), then
click on it, then repaint the screen again. And the screen real estate
for the Activities text does nothing else. Nothing. You can't even
right click on it.
You also can't right click on the "desktop menu items" and bring up
their properties. Can't copy and edit them (I like that for rdesktop
and other commands that have parameters). No, you have to find the old
MainMenu utility and create an item in the non-existent menu so it will
show up. Maybe there is another way, but it ain't intuitive.
What's with no right clicks? Only one mouse button? Instead of Unix's
3 buttons? Is this a lowest common denominator solution for someone who
installs Linux on a Mac?
I have been using Gnome3 for over 3 weeks now. I tried adding AWN.
Tweaking different parameters. It is STILL annoying. And SLOOOOWWWWW.
There is a reason why menus have been around so long. So yeah, I guess
I think the Gnome guys fumbled the ball.
I liked Gnome2. Mostly I liked all the nice GUI utilities built on top
of it. And now I am not sure what I am going to do.
It was only a change, no innovation .....
http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/76280/
6:55 p.m.
Gentle People:
Some thoughts from the users prospective on feature innovation
in the Fedora Project:
BTW: I would overall like to congratulate the Fedora developers
for producing some pretty excellent software!
However I do have some concerns about the direction of innovation and
changes to the Fedora Software.
I would like to differentiate between what I feel are a) valuable
improvements
and b) worthless changes. Where I would (of course) like to discourage
( or even ban ) worthless changes.
BTW: Many of these efforts are out dated but will still serve as
excellent
examples.
Some examples of Valuable Improvements:
- Adding support for IPv6, Wireless, VPNs, NAT, and Security,
etc.
- Adding support for real time functions, real time graphic,
and multimedia.
- Adding support for large or even huge file systems, Raid,
and so on.
Some examples of Worthless Changes:
- Changing the look and feel of the Graphical User Interface.
- Changes that harm overall performance.
- Moving the location of well known items in the menus.
- Changing the look, feel, and operation of menu items.
- Changing the function of menu items / mouse keys.
Keeping in mind the the "Worthless Changes" seriously annoy the
user base.
Hope this helps.
Thomas Dineen
On 9/7/2011 4:05 PM, Mark Eggers wrote:
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:23:26 -0700, Frederick N. Brier wrote:
> On 09/02/2011 07:31 AM, Stefan Held wrote:
>> Am Freitag, den 02.09.2011, 09:44 -0400 schrieb Darryl L. Pierce:
>>
>>> Great points. If we didn't have change and innovation we'd all still
>>> be using 80x25 monochrome text mode terminals.
> What was wrong with 80x25 monochrome? I liked the Hercules display :).
> No, but seriously, Gnome3 is irritating. To have to click on Activities
> to change and repaint the whole screen, and then select the category of
> an item you want (if you have not added it to your favorites), then
> click on it, then repaint the screen again. And the screen real estate
> for the Activities text does nothing else. Nothing. You can't even
> right click on it.
>
> You also can't right click on the "desktop menu items" and bring up
> their properties. Can't copy and edit them (I like that for rdesktop
> and other commands that have parameters). No, you have to find the old
> MainMenu utility and create an item in the non-existent menu so it will
> show up. Maybe there is another way, but it ain't intuitive.
>
> What's with no right clicks? Only one mouse button? Instead of Unix's
> 3 buttons? Is this a lowest common denominator solution for someone who
> installs Linux on a Mac?
>
> I have been using Gnome3 for over 3 weeks now. I tried adding AWN.
> Tweaking different parameters. It is STILL annoying. And SLOOOOWWWWW.
> There is a reason why menus have been around so long. So yeah, I guess
> I think the Gnome guys fumbled the ball.
>
> I liked Gnome2. Mostly I liked all the nice GUI utilities built on top
> of it. And now I am not sure what I am going to do.
>
>> It was only a change, no innovation .....
>>
>> http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/76280/
>>
>>
This is going to be long, and I'm commenting late.
First of all, a few general comments and caveats.
Comment: Notice how the person responsible for starting this flame-fest
wrote one message and hasn't reappeared?
Caveat: I am a KDE user (mostly) or a WindowMaker user. However, I've
been using Gnome 3 on and off since Fedora 15 was released. Take my
comments with the above caveat in mind.
Like many people, I find a lot of the UI changes in Gnome 3 to be a bit
irritating. However, I have found several reasonable work-arounds.
1. Switching virtual desktops
The left-screen / right-screen tango with a large monitor is cumbersome.
Many have commented on this. I find it unpleasant as well.
The work-around I use is Ctrl-Alt up-arrow and down-arrow. This allows me
to easily page through my virtual desktops. The virtual desktops don't
wrap around, and they're not labeled, but it's certainly better than the
mouse equivalents.
2. Applets
Quite frankly, I don't miss these at all. I have a weather plugin for
Chrome, and I use gkrellm for system monitoring.
If you alt-right-mouse click on gkrellm, you can choose "Always on
visible Workspace" which lets you see your machine's suffering on every
desktop :-p.
3. Items on desktop
I've never been a fan of items on the desktop. I usually have too many
things running so double-clicking on a desktop item is counter-productive.
That said, you can probably manage a lot with having Nautilus show up on
every workspace. Again, just right-mouse click on the title bar and
select "Always on visible Workspace".
4. Right-mouse click on the desktop
I've not missed this nearly as much as I thought I would. I find that Alt-
F2 and entering a command works for most of my needs. I actually use this
a lot (see Applications menu below).
Things I don't like
1. Performance
On this old machine (2.6 GHz P4, 1.5 GB memory, overclocked Nvidia 7600GS
AGPx4 card), Gnome 3 consumes the most memory and renders the slowest of
KDE 4 / WindowMaker / Gnome 3. Hopefully the Gnome developers will
improve performance in the upcoming releases. Early versions of KDE 4 had
performance problems as well, so one can hope.
2. Uncontrollable workspaces
This one is irritating. I tend to lay out my workspaces in a particular
order. I group running tasks on particular workspace based on what I'm
doing. Think of it as an alternative to the KDE activities concept.
I find now that if I don't open programs in a certain order, then they
get placed on an unfamiliar workspace. While this isn't a huge problem,
it makes setting up workspaces based on tasks more cumbersome than it
should be. I can get around some of this with alt-tab (through all
programs), but this is less than optimal.
3. Workspace behavior when ending last program
This one is a bit convoluted to explain. I have gkrellm visible on all of
the workspaces. If I go to the last workspace and start a new program,
everything works as expected. However, if I close that program, I get the
same view as if I put my mouse cursor in the upper left-hand corner of
the screen - the activities view. I have to hit the escape key to bring
me back to a workspace view.
This also happens if I launch a KDE program - let's say amarok - and send
it to the system tray.
4. The applications menu
This one is a real mess. I am a software packrat. I have lots of
programs. I have a couple of versions of some programs. The default
behavior of the application menu on a smaller system is pretty much
unworkable.
4A. Speed
The first time I bring up the Applications menu, it will take several
seconds to appear. During that time I can obviously do nothing else on
the computer.
Scrolling through this mess is also an issue, as well as a CPU hog.
4B. Organization
Alphabetic? Really? Yes, there are menus on the right hand side, but this
does not come up by default. Also, there are no tool tip style comments
when you hover over an icon. If you have several lightly used
applications, you get to guess what the names are and what they do.
4C. Icons
Mostly icons are not a problem. However, some icons are still .PNG or
other bit-mapped graphics. These scale poorly with the default icon size.
Because of this mess, I end up using Alt-F2 / command a lot. While this
works for my most commonly used programs, it certainly doesn't work
(being forgetful) for programs I don't use as often. In short, it places
a barrier to finding the right application for the task at hand.
5. Playing nicely with KDE
GTK 3 applications no longer play nicely with KDE. Newsreaders like pan
are ugly (garish background on menus, blocky fonts). Google Chrome
doesn't automatically start up the key manager, so none of the saved
passwords are available. You can enter them in and save them, but as soon
as you start Chrome under Gnome 3 again, you will lose the passwords
stored while in KDE.
6. Playing nicely with Java
I do a lot of Java work in NetBeans. The GTK look and feel is quite
broken with GTK 3. Horizontal positioning is off when using an
application in full screen. There are no menu shadows. There are no menu
borders. Font rendering is different than the default GTK applications
(and spindly).
7. Multiple open copies or windows
If you have multiple copies of an application open, or multiple windows
of a single application open, Alt-tab only gets to the most recently
active window. You have to use the arrow key to maneuver to other windows
of the same program or other instances of the same program.
This isn't quite so bad. Alt-tab once, and then use the arrow keys for
everything (this works). It's a bit clumsy, but I'm not sure how else to
approach this issue.
Nits
Theming is painful. Hopefully I can poke around with the
gnome-tweak-tool to fix the look of running GTK applications under KDE.
Resource usage is higher than other windowing systems. I realize this is
the first release. I hope that the Gnome developers will focus on
performance / efficiency in the upcoming releases.
What is the point of having the active program display on the title bar?
If I click on the entry (for example gedit), all I get is an option to
quit. Why is this any more beneficial than using Ctrl-Q from within the
program? I just trying to figure out why this is a good UI design.
All in all, Gnome 3 has some potential, but there are certain warts that
really need to be addressed in order to make it useful (IMHO).
. . . . just my two cents.
/mde/
6:05 p.m.
On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:23:26 -0700, Frederick N. Brier wrote:
On 09/02/2011 07:31 AM, Stefan Held wrote:
> Am Freitag, den 02.09.2011, 09:44 -0400 schrieb Darryl L. Pierce:
>
>> Great points. If we didn't have change and innovation we'd all still
>> be using 80x25 monochrome text mode terminals.
What was wrong with 80x25 monochrome? I liked the Hercules display :).
No, but seriously, Gnome3 is irritating. To have to click on Activities
to change and repaint the whole screen, and then select the category of
an item you want (if you have not added it to your favorites), then
click on it, then repaint the screen again. And the screen real estate
for the Activities text does nothing else. Nothing. You can't even
right click on it.
You also can't right click on the "desktop menu items" and bring up
their properties. Can't copy and edit them (I like that for rdesktop
and other commands that have parameters). No, you have to find the old
MainMenu utility and create an item in the non-existent menu so it will
show up. Maybe there is another way, but it ain't intuitive.
What's with no right clicks? Only one mouse button? Instead of Unix's
3 buttons? Is this a lowest common denominator solution for someone who
installs Linux on a Mac?
I have been using Gnome3 for over 3 weeks now. I tried adding AWN.
Tweaking different parameters. It is STILL annoying. And SLOOOOWWWWW.
There is a reason why menus have been around so long. So yeah, I guess
I think the Gnome guys fumbled the ball.
I liked Gnome2. Mostly I liked all the nice GUI utilities built on top
of it. And now I am not sure what I am going to do.
> It was only a change, no innovation .....
>
> http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/76280/
>
>
This is going to be long, and I'm commenting late.
First of all, a few general comments and caveats.
Comment: Notice how the person responsible for starting this flame-fest
wrote one message and hasn't reappeared?
Caveat: I am a KDE user (mostly) or a WindowMaker user. However, I've
been using Gnome 3 on and off since Fedora 15 was released. Take my
comments with the above caveat in mind.
Like many people, I find a lot of the UI changes in Gnome 3 to be a bit
irritating. However, I have found several reasonable work-arounds.
1. Switching virtual desktops
The left-screen / right-screen tango with a large monitor is cumbersome.
Many have commented on this. I find it unpleasant as well.
The work-around I use is Ctrl-Alt up-arrow and down-arrow. This allows me
to easily page through my virtual desktops. The virtual desktops don't
wrap around, and they're not labeled, but it's certainly better than the
mouse equivalents.
2. Applets
Quite frankly, I don't miss these at all. I have a weather plugin for
Chrome, and I use gkrellm for system monitoring.
If you alt-right-mouse click on gkrellm, you can choose "Always on
visible Workspace" which lets you see your machine's suffering on every
desktop :-p.
3. Items on desktop
I've never been a fan of items on the desktop. I usually have too many
things running so double-clicking on a desktop item is counter-productive.
That said, you can probably manage a lot with having Nautilus show up on
every workspace. Again, just right-mouse click on the title bar and
select "Always on visible Workspace".
4. Right-mouse click on the desktop
I've not missed this nearly as much as I thought I would. I find that Alt-
F2 and entering a command works for most of my needs. I actually use this
a lot (see Applications menu below).
Things I don't like
1. Performance
On this old machine (2.6 GHz P4, 1.5 GB memory, overclocked Nvidia 7600GS
AGPx4 card), Gnome 3 consumes the most memory and renders the slowest of
KDE 4 / WindowMaker / Gnome 3. Hopefully the Gnome developers will
improve performance in the upcoming releases. Early versions of KDE 4 had
performance problems as well, so one can hope.
2. Uncontrollable workspaces
This one is irritating. I tend to lay out my workspaces in a particular
order. I group running tasks on particular workspace based on what I'm
doing. Think of it as an alternative to the KDE activities concept.
I find now that if I don't open programs in a certain order, then they
get placed on an unfamiliar workspace. While this isn't a huge problem,
it makes setting up workspaces based on tasks more cumbersome than it
should be. I can get around some of this with alt-tab (through all
programs), but this is less than optimal.
3. Workspace behavior when ending last program
This one is a bit convoluted to explain. I have gkrellm visible on all of
the workspaces. If I go to the last workspace and start a new program,
everything works as expected. However, if I close that program, I get the
same view as if I put my mouse cursor in the upper left-hand corner of
the screen - the activities view. I have to hit the escape key to bring
me back to a workspace view.
This also happens if I launch a KDE program - let's say amarok - and send
it to the system tray.
4. The applications menu
This one is a real mess. I am a software packrat. I have lots of
programs. I have a couple of versions of some programs. The default
behavior of the application menu on a smaller system is pretty much
unworkable.
4A. Speed
The first time I bring up the Applications menu, it will take several
seconds to appear. During that time I can obviously do nothing else on
the computer.
Scrolling through this mess is also an issue, as well as a CPU hog.
4B. Organization
Alphabetic? Really? Yes, there are menus on the right hand side, but this
does not come up by default. Also, there are no tool tip style comments
when you hover over an icon. If you have several lightly used
applications, you get to guess what the names are and what they do.
4C. Icons
Mostly icons are not a problem. However, some icons are still .PNG or
other bit-mapped graphics. These scale poorly with the default icon size.
Because of this mess, I end up using Alt-F2 / command a lot. While this
works for my most commonly used programs, it certainly doesn't work
(being forgetful) for programs I don't use as often. In short, it places
a barrier to finding the right application for the task at hand.
5. Playing nicely with KDE
GTK 3 applications no longer play nicely with KDE. Newsreaders like pan
are ugly (garish background on menus, blocky fonts). Google Chrome
doesn't automatically start up the key manager, so none of the saved
passwords are available. You can enter them in and save them, but as soon
as you start Chrome under Gnome 3 again, you will lose the passwords
stored while in KDE.
6. Playing nicely with Java
I do a lot of Java work in NetBeans. The GTK look and feel is quite
broken with GTK 3. Horizontal positioning is off when using an
application in full screen. There are no menu shadows. There are no menu
borders. Font rendering is different than the default GTK applications
(and spindly).
7. Multiple open copies or windows
If you have multiple copies of an application open, or multiple windows
of a single application open, Alt-tab only gets to the most recently
active window. You have to use the arrow key to maneuver to other windows
of the same program or other instances of the same program.
This isn't quite so bad. Alt-tab once, and then use the arrow keys for
everything (this works). It's a bit clumsy, but I'm not sure how else to
approach this issue.
Nits
Theming is painful. Hopefully I can poke around with the
gnome-tweak-tool to fix the look of running GTK applications under KDE.
Resource usage is higher than other windowing systems. I realize this is
the first release. I hope that the Gnome developers will focus on
performance / efficiency in the upcoming releases.
What is the point of having the active program display on the title bar?
If I click on the entry (for example gedit), all I get is an option to
quit. Why is this any more beneficial than using Ctrl-Q from within the
program? I just trying to figure out why this is a good UI design.
All in all, Gnome 3 has some potential, but there are certain warts that
really need to be addressed in order to make it useful (IMHO).
. . . . just my two cents.
/mde/
7:18 a.m.
On Wed, Sep 07, 2011 at 11:23:26AM -0700, Frederick N. Brier wrote:
On 09/02/2011 07:31 AM, Stefan Held wrote:
> Am Freitag, den 02.09.2011, 09:44 -0400 schrieb Darryl L. Pierce:
>
>> Great points. If we didn't have change and innovation we'd all still be
>> using 80x25 monochrome text mode terminals.
What was wrong with 80x25 monochrome? I liked the Hercules display :).
It wasn't 80x50 which let me look at more lines of code at once. :)
No, but seriously, Gnome3 is irritating. To have to click on
Activities
to change and repaint the whole screen, and then select the category of
an item you want (if you have not added it to your favorites), then
click on it, then repaint the screen again. And the screen real estate
for the Activities text does nothing else. Nothing. You can't even
right click on it.
Then don't click through to it: start typing it's name and let it pop up
as the list narrows down the app selection. I use that to quickly jump
to what I want.
And if I use it enough then I add it to the favorites.
You also can't right click on the "desktop menu items"
and bring up
their properties.
You can. Just turn on the "Having file manager handle the desktop".
Can't copy and edit them (I like that for rdesktop
and other commands that have parameters). No, you have to find the old
MainMenu utility and create an item in the non-existent menu so it will
show up. Maybe there is another way, but it ain't intuitive.
What's with no right clicks? Only one mouse button? Instead of Unix's
3 buttons? Is this a lowest common denominator solution for someone who
installs Linux on a Mac?
I have been using Gnome3 for over 3 weeks now. I tried adding AWN.
Tweaking different parameters. It is STILL annoying. And SLOOOOWWWWW.
There is a reason why menus have been around so long. So yeah, I guess
I think the Gnome guys fumbled the ball.
I liked Gnome2. Mostly I liked all the nice GUI utilities built on top
of it. And now I am not sure what I am going to do.
I think that everybody who wants to have Gnome2 need to get together and
do things the Open Source Way:
1. fork the Gnome2 codebase (maybe give it a new project name)
2. keep it updated with fixes, new features, etc.
3. make it available to others who want to keep using that paradigm
Then everybody can be happy and have what they want. :)
--
Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc.
Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/
10:40 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Genes MailLists <lists(a)sapience.com> wrote:
Everyone is required to change - if you don't like G-3 there
are
several great DE's ... fedora makes it super easy to try them - then
pick the one that suits your needs.
Fiddling and diddling and painting the donkey to look like a horse
wont get you a horse :-)
If indeed G-3 is targeted at the tablet market as some say, then
perhaps one day it will be able to compete against Android, perhaps
that will be its home.
For those who use their computers for real work (not just browsing and
tweeting) the other DE's offer a superior environment (for many).
In fact, I would suggest that G-3 be changed to a tablet spin and lets
make KDE the default DE for [lap/desk]/tops.
Actually I wonder how many people who have posted so much about G-2
being retained, and how difficult G-3 is, have actually used KDE
current in f15? I have been using it for a while now and it really is
nice - and a completely different DE to the first shaky new KDE 4.0
that emerged only a couple of versions ago.... it is very usable and
worthy of daily use now as KDE4.6 or 4.7...
You are right G-2 is yesterday's desktop - today we have G-3 for those
that like it, and it may be a hard pill for some to swallow, even if
it does head down the tablet route (sorry - could not resist!) but if
it is impossible to swallow then I would really recommend people do
try KDE or one of the other DEs that have been mentioned. There are
good alternatives to G-3.
--
mike c
10:31 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
IceWM is your friend :)
--
“The collaborative manner in which open source software is developed
shows the true potential of humanity if we all work together towards a
common goal.”
--
Maximiliano Alvisto De León
1:49 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
Am 12.09.2011 20:47, schrieb Joe Zeff:
On 09/12/2011 11:05 AM, Frederick N. Brier wrote:
> Wow. Thank you. I was hesitant to try KDE after reading about 4.x, but
> XFCE has brought most of the snappiness back to my machine.
There's an old trick that most of the early window managers used that I
hadn't seen in years until I tried XFCE: the context menu you get when
you right-click on the desktop contains your complete main menu,
including Preferences and Administration.
well you can configure KDE to do so with
some clicks in the preferences
4:20 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/12/2011 07:47 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/12/2011 11:05 AM, Frederick N. Brier wrote:
> Wow. Thank you. I was hesitant to try KDE after reading about 4.x, but
> XFCE has brought most of the snappiness back to my machine.
There's an old trick that most of the early window managers used that I
hadn't seen in years until I tried XFCE: the context menu you get when
you right-click on the desktop contains your complete main menu,
including Preferences and Administration. No more need to go over to
the panel to launch a program or control panel, just right-click
wherever your mouse happens to be. Lack of it isn't a show-stopper, of
course, but once you get used to it, it's very convenient. I mention it
mostly because you may not have found it yet.
I certainly hadn't. Mind you, I haven't seen my desktop for years. I
suppose it must be under there somewhere...
Andrew.
1:47 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/12/2011 11:05 AM, Frederick N. Brier wrote:
Wow. Thank you. I was hesitant to try KDE after reading about 4.x,
but
XFCE has brought most of the snappiness back to my machine.
There's an old trick that most of the early window managers used that I
hadn't seen in years until I tried XFCE: the context menu you get when
you right-click on the desktop contains your complete main menu,
including Preferences and Administration. No more need to go over to
the panel to launch a program or control panel, just right-click
wherever your mouse happens to be. Lack of it isn't a show-stopper, of
course, but once you get used to it, it's very convenient. I mention it
mostly because you may not have found it yet.
1:05 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/09/2011 03:57 PM, Clemens Eisserer wrote:
> A lot of people dismissed KDE after the rough time of version
4.0, in
> a similar way that Gnome3 is now losing its userbase. But today KDE4
> is a beautiful, stable and very user-friendly DE.
Stable? I had to wait until KDE-4.6 until I finally decided that
waiting and reporting bugs won't fix its buginess.
Switched to XFCE a few months ago, and didn't regret it. A traditional
desktop as I like it (a lot like KDE3).
- Clemens
Wow. Thank you. I was hesitant to try KDE after reading about 4.x, but
XFCE has brought most of the snappiness back to my machine. The Chrome
bookmarks pop-up dialog and IntelliJ's smart code completion are still
slower than they were under F14, but faster than Gnome3. And it was SO
easy to install. I have done a lot with Fedora, but I have never
installed a second Window Manager. Just stuck with Gnome. Yeah
Fedora! Gee, now I might try IceWM just for giggles. :)
Fred
5:57 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
A lot of people dismissed KDE after the rough time of version 4.0,
in
a similar way that Gnome3 is now losing its userbase. But today KDE4
is a beautiful, stable and very user-friendly DE.
Stable? I had to wait until KDE-4.6 until I finally decided that
waiting and reporting bugs won't fix its buginess.
Switched to XFCE a few months ago, and didn't regret it. A traditional
desktop as I like it (a lot like KDE3).
- Clemens
8:46 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/08/2011 09:32 AM, Pedro Francisco wrote:
Too much work. I'd recommend either Gnome's fallback mode or
use a
taskbar like tint2, which is what I'm doing now :)
It makes far more sense to do what many have already done and switch
to a stable and configurable DE that better suits your needs. Seriously,
Gnome 2 is dead - move on.
Choose one of the alternatives - [Gnome 3 or] KDE or LXDE or XFCE or ...
Everyone is required to change - if you don't like G-3 there are
several great DE's ... fedora makes it super easy to try them - then
pick the one that suits your needs.
Fiddling and diddling and painting the donkey to look like a horse
wont get you a horse :-)
If indeed G-3 is targeted at the tablet market as some say, then
perhaps one day it will be able to compete against Android, perhaps
that will be its home.
For those who use their computers for real work (not just browsing and
tweeting) the other DE's offer a superior environment (for many).
In fact, I would suggest that G-3 be changed to a tablet spin and lets
make KDE the default DE for [lap/desk]/tops.
8:32 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
Too much work. I'd recommend either Gnome's fallback mode or use a taskbar
like tint2, which is what I'm doing now :)
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Darryl L. Pierce <dpierce(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> I liked Gnome2. Mostly I liked all the nice GUI utilities built
on top
> of it. And now I am not sure what I am going to do.
I think that everybody who wants to have Gnome2 need to get together and
do things the Open Source Way:
1. fork the Gnome2 codebase (maybe give it a new project name)
2. keep it updated with fixes, new features, etc.
3. make it available to others who want to keep using that paradigm
Then everybody can be happy and have what they want. :)
7:04 a.m.
On Wed, 2011-09-07 at 23:05 +0000, Mark Eggers wrote:
The left-screen / right-screen tango with a large monitor is
cumbersome. Many have commented on this. I find it unpleasant as well.
The work-around I use is Ctrl-Alt up-arrow and down-arrow. This allows
me to easily page through my virtual desktops. The virtual desktops
don't wrap around, and they're not labeled, but it's certainly better
than the mouse equivalents.
I think it's a fundamental screw-up to make someone use the keyboard
with a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pointer) GUI. Sure, you're probably
not actually /forced/ to, but if it's a major pain to mouse about, it
comes to the same issue. And I mean that in regards to either swapping
between mousing and keyboard, or worse, having to use both
simultaneously.
4B. Organization
Alphabetic? Really? Yes, there are menus on the right hand side, but
this does not come up by default.
I'll diverge from your comment, a bit, but since you called it
organisation, and things are being redesigned all over the place, I'll
stick in a pet peeve of mine.
The scroll bars are generally on the right of the screen, and the menus
are generally on the left. LIkewise with commonly used buttons at the
top of the window (they're far away from the scroll bar).
As far as GUI designs go, this is horrible. If you want to be nice to
users, it'd be more convenient to bring the two closer together, such as
menus being right justified in a big window.
/---- name of window -----------------------------------+++\
| file edit view other menus |
| S
| C
| R
| O
| L
| L
Or, being able to move the scroll bar onto the left side.
Lots of quote snippage that'd have many "me too"s written with them...
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
7:17 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/02/2011 12:53 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
Joe Zeff wrote:
> Since when has there been the slightest sign of the Gnome devs giving a
> rats ass about what mere users think?
They care enormously about what the imaginary user they have
created thinks. Real users, not so much. They can always
imagine overwhelmingly greater numbers of imaginary users
than real users :-).
Wow. I hope you guys are just as effusive with your praise to developers
for software that you actually like...
- Mike
1:24 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/02/2011 11:03 AM, Andrew Haley wrote:
I take your point. However, I think they're human; if you prick
them,
do they not bleed? Surely they must be a little bit hurt by all these
complaints from their users.
Yes, they're human, just as Bill Gates and all of his minions are.
However, when it comes to the Gnome devs, I've never seen the slightest
indication that they even pay attention to what the users want or need,
let alone their complaints. This is one of the many reasons I don't use
Gnome any more.
8:26 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Fri, 2011-09-02 at 13:43 +0200, Łukasz Jagiełło wrote:
Don't forget about people like me who really likes new gnome3.
You
want change distribution only cause you doesn't like new gnome3. Did
you write all your problems at F-15 alpha stage or earlier stage when
everything was possible to do ? Guess not, but now you want to back
some support only cause you doesn't like it. Of course there are many
people who wrote here how they doesn't like gnome3, but did you think
when people who like something doesn't special write about it.
I like it, too. Yes, there are some rough edges. In fact, there are
some things that don't make sense, at all. But, overall I like it.
I took a while to get used to it, and I had to change my desktop habits.
Now, I like it. I wouldn't say I prefer it to Gnome 2, but I can
definitely live with Gnome 3.
Ranbir
1:53 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
Yes, they're human, just as Bill Gates and all of his minions
are.
However, when it comes to the Gnome devs, I've never seen the slightest
indication that they even pay attention to what the users want or need,
let alone their complaints. This is one of the many reasons I don't use
Gnome any more.
Well in some senses I'm not surprised - I think there is a bit of siege
mentality, but they even systematically blocked a proposal to do a user
survey recently.
One job of any developer is to stop things being done as quick fixes or
adjustments to fix things for a specific use case to the detriment of the
others. Giving users what they want as opposed to what they need
sometimes leads to very bad results. In a lot of cases the users are
other programmers but the UI people have an enormous number of folks they
interface to very directly.
1:45 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:24:24 -0700
Joe Zeff wrote:
Yes, they're human, just as Bill Gates and all of his minions
are.
However, when it comes to the Gnome devs, I've never seen the slightest
indication that they even pay attention to what the users want or need,
let alone their complaints.
For a fun historical read, try this bugzilla:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=136541
11:53 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 09:41:10 -0700
Joe Zeff wrote:
Since when has there been the slightest sign of the Gnome devs giving
a
rats ass about what mere users think?
They care enormously about what the imaginary user they have
created thinks. Real users, not so much. They can always
imagine overwhelmingly greater numbers of imaginary users
than real users :-).
11:41 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/02/2011 05:51 AM, Andrew Haley wrote:
I hope that the GNOME developers will make good
use of this feedback.
Since when has there been the slightest sign of the Gnome devs giving a
rats ass about what mere users think?
11:36 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/02/2011 01:21 AM, Alan Cox wrote:
Ease of use. We've replaced option boxes with magic impenetrable
extensions and for the rest you have to code them yourself.
No. Ease of coding for the devs and to hell with the users.
9:43 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/01/2011 04:24 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
A lot of people dismissed KDE after the rough time of version 4.0,
in
a similar way that Gnome3 is now losing its userbase. But today KDE4
is a beautiful, stable and very user-friendly DE. I guess Gnome3 will
get back on its feet in the next couple of Fedora versions, but atm
KDE is the most polished environment available. ;-)
I've been very surprised at how many former KDE 3.x users, are not even
looking at KDE again. I suppose it's a great illustration of the "once
bitten, twice shy" effect.
--
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher arequipeno(a)gmail.com
"If you're going to shift my paradigm ... at least buy me dinner first."
========================================================================
9:31 a.m.
Am Freitag, den 02.09.2011, 09:44 -0400 schrieb Darryl L. Pierce:
Great points. If we didn't have change and innovation we'd
all still be
using 80x25 monochrome text mode terminals.
It was only a change, no innovation .....
http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/76280/
--
Stefan Held VI has only 2 Modes:
obi unixkiste org The first one is for beeping all the time,
FreeNode: foo_bar the second destroys the text.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
perl -e'map{print pack c,($|++?1:13)+ord,select$,,$,,$,,$|}split//,ESEL.$/'
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
9:25 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:01:56 +0100
Alan Cox wrote:
fvwm went from hero to zero in a few years
Who says? I use it all the time because it doesn't
obsessively change out from under me just because it
can. Some faction of linux geeks seem to believe that
if something isn't radically changed every few
months it is dead. I, on the other hand, appreciate
software that doesn't keep making me relearn everything
when I could be doing useful work instead.
9:18 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
2011/9/2, Alan Cox <alan(a)lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
No easy answers but there is a free market, and weaker solutions go
away
(amazingly fast some times - fvwm went from hero to zero in a few years
for example)
I assume you meant "fvwm became stable" :-)
Andras
9:01 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 14:43:42 +0100
Richard Hughes <hughsient(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 1 September 2011 21:29, Digimer <linux(a)alteeve.com> wrote:
> Also, Linux is all about choice.
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html
Yeah its a very naïve viewpoint. The problem starts here
"Software is hard. The way to fix it is to fix it, not sweep it under
the rug."
That presupposes there is a definition of "fixed" that is global,
absolute and measurable. There isn't. You can "fix" certain bits of
software because they have a tightly definable purpose.
A desktop UI doesn't because everyone who is involved with it has a
different definition of "fixed". Instead it is either about balancing
those tradeoffs, or in some cases just accepting the two differing
viewpoints actually don't easily reconcile and can't be wrapped nicely in
one package.
Yes it should be fixed too - Gnome3 shouldn't have such a lousy
compositor performance, it shouldn't rely on GL when it's completely
excessive for what it does (take a look at the E canvas in comparison)
etc, and it really ought to handle smaller machines better rather than
aping the Windows 'gee thats hard, **** it, fallback to a naff emulation
of the old code' behaviour.
Desktops are a a bit more like the old Star Wars quote - "The more you
tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your
fingers. ". Equally the less grip you have the less managable it all gets.
No easy answers but there is a free market, and weaker solutions go away
(amazingly fast some times - fvwm went from hero to zero in a few years
for example)
Alan
8:44 a.m.
On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 04:29:59PM -0400, Digimer wrote:
When Red hat 8 (original) came out, I hated Gnome and wanted
Enlightenment back.
When Windows 95 came out, I hated it's new UI and wanted 3.1 back.
Great points. If we didn't have change and innovation we'd all still be
using 80x25 monochrome text mode terminals.
Things change, it's part of computers (and everything else). So
when F15
came out, I decided to let go of my old ways of working and try to
understand the logic and flow of Gnome 3. Now I love it, and get
frustrated back on Gnome2 machines.
Also, Linux is all about choice. Gnome 3 is what it is. You are welcome
to use KDE, XFCE, Ubuntu's Ubiquity or any one of the numerous other
window managers and/or distros.
+1 to all of the above. The system is flexible enough that users can go
to another desktop environment, or mix and match what's there, without
giving up the whole OS.
If your work is completely tied to a single implementation of one version
of a desktop environment then I think you might be doing it wrong...
--
Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc.
Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/
8:43 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 1 September 2011 21:29, Digimer <linux(a)alteeve.com> wrote:
Also, Linux is all about choice.
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html
Richard.
7:51 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/02/2011 12:43 PM, Łukasz Jagiełło wrote:
2011/9/2 Amadeus W.M. <amadeus84(a)verizon.net>:
> But it's a sin to take something good - granted, possibly not perfect -
> and turn it into something unusable for so many people. Why did the UI
> have to change to something that looks and feels like a giant smart
> phone? Integrated chat and messaging? Where did that come from? Thank God
> you guys didn't integrate that into the kernel!
>
> I can't find much information about the gnome3 developers, but they must
> be generation Facebook - it's the "stay connected" philosophy that I
see
> in gnome3. There's more to computing than that.
>
> I wish someone from the old guard found the time and energy to step up
> and straighten things up. I know, I know, different times, different
> priorities. The gnome2 UI was good, only the internals would have to be
> changed as needed.
Don't forget about people like me who really likes new gnome3. You
want change distribution only cause you doesn't like new gnome3. Did
you write all your problems at F-15 alpha stage or earlier stage when
everything was possible to do ? Guess not
Fedora 15 is the first real outing for GNOME 3. Most people, perhaps
understandably, don't want to spend much of their lives experimenting
with alpha operating systems just in case the developers do something
they don't like. Clearly there are, for many people, severe usability
problems with GNOME 3. I hope that the GNOME developers will make good
use of this feedback.
Andrew.
7:41 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 01:32, Amadeus W.M. <amadeus84(a)verizon.net> wrote:
I can't find much information about the gnome3 developers, but they must
be generation Facebook - it's the "stay connected" philosophy that I see
in gnome3. There's more to computing than that.
I wish someone from the old guard found the time and energy to step up
and straighten things up.
You certainly meant "generation stupid". Not to mention the young kids
at Gurgle (Google) screwing user interfaces in every way you can
imagine, ditching CUA menus and making others like the Firefox team
imitate them, by ditching well thought out useful features like the
status bar.
FC
--
"Si, yo creo en los objetos. Inclusive más que en los seres humanos.
Creo que son más fieles ¿no?. Porque, claro, los seres humanos pueden
traicionarte, pero los objetos no, a los objetos
los traicionamos nosotros."
-Manuel Mujica Laines
6:43 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
2011/9/2 Amadeus W.M. <amadeus84(a)verizon.net>:
But it's a sin to take something good - granted, possibly not
perfect -
and turn it into something unusable for so many people. Why did the UI
have to change to something that looks and feels like a giant smart
phone? Integrated chat and messaging? Where did that come from? Thank God
you guys didn't integrate that into the kernel!
I can't find much information about the gnome3 developers, but they must
be generation Facebook - it's the "stay connected" philosophy that I see
in gnome3. There's more to computing than that.
I wish someone from the old guard found the time and energy to step up
and straighten things up. I know, I know, different times, different
priorities. The gnome2 UI was good, only the internals would have to be
changed as needed.
Don't forget about people like me who really likes new gnome3. You
want change distribution only cause you doesn't like new gnome3. Did
you write all your problems at F-15 alpha stage or earlier stage when
everything was possible to do ? Guess not, but now you want to back
some support only cause you doesn't like it. Of course there are many
people who wrote here how they doesn't like gnome3, but did you think
when people who like something doesn't special write about it.
--
Łukasz Jagiełło
lukasz<at>jagiello<dot>org
4:51 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 1 September 2011 21:15, Linda McLeod <lindavaldeen(a)fastmail.fm> wrote:
I love this Fedora-14, and everything Red Hat, but Fedora-15 is a lot
like those vile Windows OS's..
Essentially, every time I see a post like this I stop reading as soon
as it tries to argue that something is wrong because it's like
Windows. Reductio ad Gates is not a valid demonstration that something
is undesireable and successive attempts at doing it commonly vary
between 'this is obscure', 'this is oversimplified', 'this isn't
configurable to my liking' and 'I don't like it'. All of those on
their own might be good reasons to object to a design or feature and
might be points worth discussing, but lots of people seem to thing
that the Linux community is about Not Being Windows and that if you
can equate something you don't like to Windows in some way then you've
proved that it's undesireable. This is simply not true.
--
imalone
1:01 a.m.
On 09/02/2011 02:46 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:
Does it support Gnome 2 ? That seems to be what everyone who
complains
about Gnome 3 actually wants...
http://k3rnel.net/2011/06/15/bluebubble-faq/
Rahul
3:31 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
2011/9/2 Alan Cox <alan(a)lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
On Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:04:18 -0400
"Mark W. Jeanmougin" <markjx(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 18:03, Rudolf Kastl <che666(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > 2011/9/1 Alan Cox <alan(a)lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
> >> If you really want everything to just get out of the way and don't need
> >> the user niceness stuff you might also want to look at Enlightement
> >>
> >> yum search enlightenment
> >>
> >> Alan
> >
> > e17 will be removed from f16 because of a " for it
> > unfortunately (afaik it has been orphaned). because of that id
> > recommend at this point aswell to try xfce and/or lxde for a serious
> > work environment.
>
> Nooooooooooo!!!!!
Well you know what to do 8).... "lack of maintainer" ...
Shouldn't be too hard to deal with anyway as its just a few packages to
feed to rpmbuild again, unlike Gnome 2 where it will clash with Gnome 3
Id be willing to offer help to anyone going to maintain e17 again to
resolve technical issues and questions. Just drop me an email with the
subject "e17" or "enlightenment".
kind regards,
Rudolf Kastl
3:25 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:04:18 -0400
"Mark W. Jeanmougin" <markjx(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 18:03, Rudolf Kastl <che666(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> 2011/9/1 Alan Cox <alan(a)lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
>> If you really want everything to just get out of the way and don't need
>> the user niceness stuff you might also want to look at Enlightement
>>
>> yum search enlightenment
>>
>> Alan
>
> e17 will be removed from f16 because of a " for it
> unfortunately (afaik it has been orphaned). because of that id
> recommend at this point aswell to try xfce and/or lxde for a serious
> work environment.
Nooooooooooo!!!!!
Well you know what to do 8).... "lack of maintainer" ...
Shouldn't be too hard to deal with anyway as its just a few packages to
feed to rpmbuild again, unlike Gnome 2 where it will clash with Gnome 3
3:21 a.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 23:20:19 -0400
Matthew Saltzman <mjs(a)clemson.edu> wrote:
On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 14:34 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 09/01/2011 02:18 PM, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
>
> > gnome-shell-extension-righthotcorner-1.0-1.fc15.noarch
> >
>
> Why do you have to install an extension to make such a small change?
> Shouldn't this be configurable?
>
Think of it as a different configuration mechanism.
You mean like the C compiler is the configuration mechanism for some
options in gnome 2.x 8)
Ease of use. We've replaced option boxes with magic impenetrable
extensions and for the rest you have to code them yourself.
2:37 a.m.
On Fri, Sep 02, 2011 at 04:32:07AM +0000, Amadeus W.M. wrote:
Why did the UI have to change to something that looks and feels
like a giant smart phone?
Integrated chat and messaging? Where did that come from?
Maybe because in the not too distant future all "PCs" will
become giant (or dwarf) smart phones {^+^}
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/products/Desktops/IdeaCentre/b-series/b520/inde...
Alexander (who does not own or use a smart phone).
8:26 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/01/2011 02:18 PM, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 16:01 -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
> 2. Who thought it was a good idea to make someone put their cursor to
> the upper left corner in order to switch desktops that are all the way
> on the right? How is that ergonomic? I actually don't mind doing that
> for switching apps or bringing up the menu so much but to switch
> desktops it's really irritating.
>
> Richard
>
gnome-shell-extension-righthotcorner-1.0-1.fc15.noarch
Apropos: The designer who put the cursor on the upper
left corner is a 'lefty' and felt justified.
11:32 p.m.
On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 22:11:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> Would someone please tell me.. Why is F-15 such a mess..? The
worst
> thing is the jumbled up desktop..
The great thing about Linux is that the desktop is not wired into the
system. The great thing about Fedora is it supports and packages many
desktops.
So
yum groupinstall Xfce
exit to the graphical login, set the desktop type in the options to
Xfce, log back in.
Certainly there are alternatives. Certainly we can find our way in
Gnome3 - eventually - for we are not retarded, and certainly we can
decide whether to use it or not.
But it's a sin to take something good - granted, possibly not perfect -
and turn it into something unusable for so many people. Why did the UI
have to change to something that looks and feels like a giant smart
phone? Integrated chat and messaging? Where did that come from? Thank God
you guys didn't integrate that into the kernel!
I can't find much information about the gnome3 developers, but they must
be generation Facebook - it's the "stay connected" philosophy that I see
in gnome3. There's more to computing than that.
I wish someone from the old guard found the time and energy to step up
and straighten things up. I know, I know, different times, different
priorities. The gnome2 UI was good, only the internals would have to be
changed as needed.
11 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/01/2011 06:04 PM, Mark W. Jeanmougin wrote:
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 18:03, Rudolf Kastl<che666(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> 2011/9/1 Alan Cox<alan(a)lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
>> If you really want everything to just get out of the way and don't need
>> the user niceness stuff you might also want to look at Enlightement
>>
>> yum search enlightenment
>>
>> Alan
> e17 will be removed from f16 because of a lack of maintainer for it
> unfortunately (afaik it has been orphaned). because of that id
> recommend at this point aswell to try xfce and/or lxde for a serious
> work environment.
Nooooooooooo!!!!!
I've been a hard-core Enlightenment user for years. I can't imagine
having to give it up! I love that it doesn't auto-mount every disk I
plug in! I love the Ctrl-Alt-Ins to get a new terminal. I love the low
system resources.
Man, I'm going to miss it...
MJ
I love it too!
http://bodhilinux.com - The best E17 distro
John
10:20 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 14:34 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/01/2011 02:18 PM, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> gnome-shell-extension-righthotcorner-1.0-1.fc15.noarch
>
Why do you have to install an extension to make such a small change?
Shouldn't this be configurable?
Think of it as a different configuration mechanism.
--
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Mathematical Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
8:59 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
where'd the OP go?
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Daniel B. Thurman <dant(a)cdkkt.com> wrote:
On 09/01/2011 02:18 PM, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 16:01 -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
>
>> 2. Who thought it was a good idea to make someone put their cursor to
>> the upper left corner in order to switch desktops that are all the way
>> on the right? How is that ergonomic? I actually don't mind doing that
>> for switching apps or bringing up the menu so much but to switch
>> desktops it's really irritating.
>>
>> Richard
>>
> gnome-shell-extension-righthotcorner-1.0-1.fc15.noarch
>
Apropos: The designer who put the cursor on the upper
left corner is a 'lefty' and felt justified.
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8:04 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 18:03, Rudolf Kastl <che666(a)gmail.com> wrote:
2011/9/1 Alan Cox <alan(a)lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
> If you really want everything to just get out of the way and don't need
> the user niceness stuff you might also want to look at Enlightement
>
> yum search enlightenment
>
> Alan
e17 will be removed from f16 because of a lack of maintainer for it
unfortunately (afaik it has been orphaned). because of that id
recommend at this point aswell to try xfce and/or lxde for a serious
work environment.
Nooooooooooo!!!!!
I've been a hard-core Enlightenment user for years. I can't imagine
having to give it up! I love that it doesn't auto-mount every disk I
plug in! I love the Ctrl-Alt-Ins to get a new terminal. I love the low
system resources.
Man, I'm going to miss it...
MJ
5:35 p.m.
On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 17:16:54 -0400
DJ Delorie <dj(a)delorie.com> wrote:
Alan Cox <alan(a)lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> writes:
> The great thing about Fedora is it supports and packages many
> desktops.
Does it support Gnome 2 ? That seems to be what everyone who complains
about Gnome 3 actually wants...
But none of them enough to maintain it apparently. Nothing in Fedora
magically appears - someone has to maintain it.
5:03 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
2011/9/1 Alan Cox <alan(a)lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>:
> Would someone please tell me.. Why is F-15 such a mess..? The
worst
> thing is the jumbled up desktop..
The great thing about Linux is that the desktop is not wired into the
system. The great thing about Fedora is it supports and packages many
desktops.
So
yum groupinstall Xfce
exit to the graphical login, set the desktop type in the options to Xfce,
log back in.
Xfce is a traditional desktop, complete with sharp edges you can cut
yourself on rather than a padded cell like Gnome 3. It is actually more
configurable than Gnome 2.x in many ways as well as a lot faster and
lighter on memory.
If you really want everything to just get out of the way and don't need
the user niceness stuff you might also want to look at Enlightement
yum search enlightenment
Alan
e17 will be removed from f16 because of a lack of maintainer for it
unfortunately (afaik it has been orphaned). because of that id
recommend at this point aswell to try xfce and/or lxde for a serious
work environment.
kind regards,
Rudolf Kastl
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4:48 p.m.
On 09/01/2011 04:11 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
> Would someone please tell me.. Why is F-15 such a mess..? The
worst
> thing is the jumbled up desktop..
The great thing about Linux is that the desktop is not wired into the
system. The great thing about Fedora is it supports and packages many
desktops.
So
yum groupinstall Xfce
exit to the graphical login, set the desktop type in the options to Xfce,
log back in.
Xfce is a traditional desktop, complete with sharp edges you can cut
yourself on rather than a padded cell like Gnome 3. It is actually more
configurable than Gnome 2.x in many ways as well as a lot faster and
lighter on memory.
If you really want everything to just get out of the way and don't need
the user niceness stuff you might also want to look at Enlightement
yum search enlightenment
Alan
Here's my desktop, using XFCE and Avant Window Navigator. I stopped
using Gnome Shell not because I don't like it but because it's unstable
on my system.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/el89OuwhilZBUiv4E62nkA?feat=directlink
--
-- Steve
4:34 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/01/2011 02:18 PM, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
gnome-shell-extension-righthotcorner-1.0-1.fc15.noarch
Why do you have to install an extension to make such a small change?
Shouldn't this be configurable?
4:28 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/01/2011 02:15 PM, Konstantin Svist wrote:
On 09/01/2011 01:54 PM, Pasha R wrote:
> When Win95 came out it took me less than 1 day to adapt (btw, do you
> know that you could use Win3.1-like program manager in Win95). When
> RH8 came out, it took me less than 1 day to adapt. Same for Gnome2,
> different versions of KDE/XFCE I tried over time. Gnome3 is the only
> exception - used it for few weeks and returned to F14.
F/OSS is all about choice, so kudos! Although I would recommend going
to another window manager, e.g. XFCE. By now it's fairly mature and
well supported. And as a bonus, it uses a lot less system resources,
and feels a lot faster than KDE & Gnome.
To try,
# yum groupinstall Xfce
then select Xfce as a session before entering your password
Whoops, didn't notice you've tried XFCE already :)
4:15 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/01/2011 01:54 PM, Pasha R wrote:
When Win95 came out it took me less than 1 day to adapt (btw, do you
know that you could use Win3.1-like program manager in Win95). When
RH8 came out, it took me less than 1 day to adapt. Same for Gnome2,
different versions of KDE/XFCE I tried over time. Gnome3 is the only
exception - used it for few weeks and returned to F14.
F/OSS is all about choice, so kudos! Although I would recommend going to
another window manager, e.g. XFCE. By now it's fairly mature and well
supported. And as a bonus, it uses a lot less system resources, and
feels a lot faster than KDE & Gnome.
To try,
# yum groupinstall Xfce
then select Xfce as a session before entering your password
4:24 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Alan Cox <alan(a)lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:
> Would someone please tell me.. Why is F-15 such a mess..? The
worst
> thing is the jumbled up desktop..
The great thing about Linux is that the desktop is not wired into the
system. The great thing about Fedora is it supports and packages many
desktops.
So
yum groupinstall Xfce
exit to the graphical login, set the desktop type in the options to Xfce,
log back in.
Xfce is a traditional desktop, complete with sharp edges you can cut
yourself on rather than a padded cell like Gnome 3. It is actually more
configurable than Gnome 2.x in many ways as well as a lot faster and
lighter on memory.
If you really want everything to just get out of the way and don't need
the user niceness stuff you might also want to look at Enlightement
yum search enlightenment
And then there is also KDE, not as lightweight as XFCE, but very
powerful and very configurable.
A lot of people dismissed KDE after the rough time of version 4.0, in
a similar way that Gnome3 is now losing its userbase. But today KDE4
is a beautiful, stable and very user-friendly DE. I guess Gnome3 will
get back on its feet in the next couple of Fedora versions, but atm
KDE is the most polished environment available. ;-)
:-)
Marko
4:22 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Matthew Saltzman <mjs(a)clemson.edu> wrote:
On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 16:01 -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
> 2. Who thought it was a good idea to make someone put their cursor to
> the upper left corner in order to switch desktops that are all the way
> on the right? How is that ergonomic? I actually don't mind doing that
> for switching apps or bringing up the menu so much but to switch
> desktops it's really irritating.
gnome-shell-extension-righthotcorner-1.0-1.fc15.noarch
Installed!
Thanks,
Richard
4:22 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 23:54 +0300, Pasha R wrote:
--
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Mathematical Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Digimer <linux(a)alteeve.com>
wrote:
> On 09/01/2011 04:15 PM, Linda McLeod wrote:
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>> You'll see...
>>
>
> When Red hat 8 (original) came out, I hated Gnome and wanted
> Enlightenment back.
>
> When Windows 95 came out, I hated it's new UI and wanted 3.1 back.
>
> Things change, it's part of computers (and everything else). So when F15
> came out, I decided to let go of my old ways of working and try to
> understand the logic and flow of Gnome 3. Now I love it, and get
> frustrated back on Gnome2 machines.
>
> Also, Linux is all about choice. Gnome 3 is what it is. You are welcome
> to use KDE, XFCE, Ubuntu's Ubiquity or any one of the numerous other
> window managers and/or distros.
>
When Win95 came out it took me less than 1 day to adapt (btw, do you
know that you could use Win3.1-like program manager in Win95). When
RH8 came out, it took me less than 1 day to adapt. Same for Gnome2,
different versions of KDE/XFCE I tried over time. Gnome3 is the only
exception - used it for few weeks and returned to F14.
I found a quick orientation at gnome.org. Saved me a lot of frustration
and helped me adapt much more quickly. Not sure it's love yet, but I'm
comfortable working with it.
Also, there are a bunch of extensions (and more coming. I'm sure) to
help overcome some of the annoyances. "yum list gnome-shell-\*" to get
a list of the ones already supported.
4:18 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, 2011-09-01 at 16:01 -0500, Richard Shaw wrote:
2. Who thought it was a good idea to make someone put their cursor to
the upper left corner in order to switch desktops that are all the way
on the right? How is that ergonomic? I actually don't mind doing that
for switching apps or bringing up the menu so much but to switch
desktops it's really irritating.
Richard
gnome-shell-extension-righthotcorner-1.0-1.fc15.noarch
--
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Mathematical Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
4:11 p.m.
Would someone please tell me.. Why is F-15 such a mess..? The
worst
thing is the jumbled up desktop..
The great thing about Linux is that the desktop is not wired into the
system. The great thing about Fedora is it supports and packages many
desktops.
So
yum groupinstall Xfce
exit to the graphical login, set the desktop type in the options to Xfce,
log back in.
Xfce is a traditional desktop, complete with sharp edges you can cut
yourself on rather than a padded cell like Gnome 3. It is actually more
configurable than Gnome 2.x in many ways as well as a lot faster and
lighter on memory.
If you really want everything to just get out of the way and don't need
the user niceness stuff you might also want to look at Enlightement
yum search enlightenment
Alan
4:01 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 3:50 PM, William Henry <whenry(a)redhat.com> wrote:
+1. Gotten used to Gnome 3 and now love it.
Still trying to figure some things out. (Why has my Xchat no pull down menus anymore? I
can't modify anything.)
I was considering a not quite rant.... I'm OK with Gnome 3 after
adding a few extensions so I can actually use my Desktop and access my
folders from the panel.
I only have two things that REALLY bother me at this point:
1. Why are apps/icons being hidden in the menu? I didn't notice until
working on a package that had an icon. I used the most appropriate
groups from the free desktop spec in creating my desktop file and when
I tried to "run" the app I couldn't find the icon! Not even in
"Other". The only way I found it was to use the search!
I then looked at what all was in /usr/share/applications and found out
that LOTS of stuff was being hidden from me. I would like to know the
justification for that...
2. Who thought it was a good idea to make someone put their cursor to
the upper left corner in order to switch desktops that are all the way
on the right? How is that ergonomic? I actually don't mind doing that
for switching apps or bringing up the menu so much but to switch
desktops it's really irritating.
Richard
3:54 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Digimer <linux(a)alteeve.com> wrote:
On 09/01/2011 04:15 PM, Linda McLeod wrote:
>
<snip>
> You'll see...
>
When Red hat 8 (original) came out, I hated Gnome and wanted
Enlightenment back.
When Windows 95 came out, I hated it's new UI and wanted 3.1 back.
Things change, it's part of computers (and everything else). So when F15
came out, I decided to let go of my old ways of working and try to
understand the logic and flow of Gnome 3. Now I love it, and get
frustrated back on Gnome2 machines.
Also, Linux is all about choice. Gnome 3 is what it is. You are welcome
to use KDE, XFCE, Ubuntu's Ubiquity or any one of the numerous other
window managers and/or distros.
When Win95 came out it took me less than 1 day to adapt (btw, do you
know that you could use Win3.1-like program manager in Win95). When
RH8 came out, it took me less than 1 day to adapt. Same for Gnome2,
different versions of KDE/XFCE I tried over time. Gnome3 is the only
exception - used it for few weeks and returned to F14.
3:50 p.m.
+1. Gotten used to Gnome 3 and now love it.
Still trying to figure some things out. (Why has my Xchat no pull down menus anymore? I
can't modify anything.)
William
----- Original Message -----
On 09/01/2011 04:15 PM, Linda McLeod wrote:
>
<snip>
> You'll see...
>
When Red hat 8 (original) came out, I hated Gnome and wanted
Enlightenment back.
When Windows 95 came out, I hated it's new UI and wanted 3.1 back.
Things change, it's part of computers (and everything else). So when
F15
came out, I decided to let go of my old ways of working and try to
understand the logic and flow of Gnome 3. Now I love it, and get
frustrated back on Gnome2 machines.
Also, Linux is all about choice. Gnome 3 is what it is. You are
welcome
to use KDE, XFCE, Ubuntu's Ubiquity or any one of the numerous other
window managers and/or distros.
--
Digimer
E-Mail: digimer(a)alteeve.com
Freenode handle: digimer
Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com
Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org
"At what point did we forget that the Space Shuttle was, essentially,
a program that strapped human beings to an explosion and tried to stab
through the sky with fire and math?"
--
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3:29 p.m.
On 09/01/2011 04:15 PM, Linda McLeod wrote:
<snip>
> You'll see...
When Red hat 8 (original) came out, I hated Gnome and wanted
Enlightenment back.
When Windows 95 came out, I hated it's new UI and wanted 3.1 back.
Things change, it's part of computers (and everything else). So when F15
came out, I decided to let go of my old ways of working and try to
understand the logic and flow of Gnome 3. Now I love it, and get
frustrated back on Gnome2 machines.
Also, Linux is all about choice. Gnome 3 is what it is. You are welcome
to use KDE, XFCE, Ubuntu's Ubiquity or any one of the numerous other
window managers and/or distros.
--
Digimer
E-Mail: digimer(a)alteeve.com
Freenode handle: digimer
Papers and Projects: http://alteeve.com
Node Assassin: http://nodeassassin.org
"At what point did we forget that the Space Shuttle was, essentially,
a program that strapped human beings to an explosion and tried to stab
through the sky with fire and math?"
3:29 p.m.
On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at 01:15:25PM -0700, Linda McLeod wrote:
<snip>
Try to differentiate: Gnome 3 is not Fedora 15, and vice versa. There
are other desktop environments that you can use rather than Gnome 3.
--
Darryl L. Pierce, Sr. Software Engineer @ Red Hat, Inc.
Delivering value year after year.
Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors.
http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/
1:03 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/02/2011 05:41 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/02/2011 05:51 AM, Andrew Haley wrote:
> I hope that the GNOME developers will make good
> use of this feedback.
Since when has there been the slightest sign of the Gnome devs giving a
rats ass about what mere users think?
I take your point. However, I think they're human; if you prick them,
do they not bleed? Surely they must be a little bit hurt by all these
complaints from their users.
Andrew.
12:44 p.m.
New subject: Fedora 15 is a lot like Windows OS's.. irritating, offensive, difficult to use with ease, nauseating to try...
On 09/06/2011 05:17 AM, Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak wrote:
Wow. I hope you guys are just as effusive with your praise to
developers
for software that you actually like...
It's not that we don't like Gnome. I used Gnome 2.x and liked it. What
I never liked is the attitude of the devs, even then. Unless you were
actively working on Gnome development, they not only wouldn't discuss
your suggestions, they'd tell you to start developing or Go Away. And,
the attitude of the users on the support forums at gnome.org is The
Developers Can Do No Wrong. If you post anything there that doesn't fit
that mindset, you get flamed, and that's about the only way to get a
response to a post. Aside from that, it's a "write only forum."
6:23 p.m.
On 09/01/2011 03:35 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
But none of them enough to maintain it apparently. Nothing in Fedora
magically appears - someone has to maintain it.
Maintaining a package takes specific programming skills and the time to
do the work. If Fedora had been able to fork Gnome and keep a Gnome 2
version alive I'd have used it but I haven't done any programming in
fifteen years, and when I did, it wasn't on that type of program.
4660
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64 comments
42 participants
participants (42)
-
Alan Cox -
Alexander Volovics -
Amadeus W.M. -
Andras Simon -
Andrew Haley -
Clemens Eisserer -
Dan Thurman -
Darryl L. Pierce -
Digimer -
DJ Delorie -
Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak -
Fernando Cassia -
Frederick N. Brier -
Genes MailLists -
Ian Malone -
Ian Pilcher -
Joe Zeff -
John Wendel -
Konstantin Svist -
Linda McLeod -
Mark Eggers -
Mark W. Jeanmougin -
Marko Vojinovic -
Matthew Saltzman -
Maximiliano Alvisto De León -
mike cloaked -
Neal Hogan -
Pasha R -
Pedro Francisco -
Rahul Sundaram -
Ranbir -
Reindl Harald -
Richard Hughes -
Richard Shaw -
Rudolf Kastl -
Stefan Held -
SternData -
Thomas Dineen -
Tim -
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William Henry -
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