2:38 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan
<pocallaghan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
It's always tempting to propose radical solutions when some
unusual
event occurs (see most responses to terrorist incidents for a real-world
parallel).
I have to agree with this. Having used mailing lists, forums, Usenet,
BBSs and other discussion tools for over two decades, I've seen
exactly this. I've seen arguments start because one person's humor is
lost on another. There was virtual dust up once when someone's random
fortune cookie signature offended someone else who thought it was
directed at him. Not much can be done about it.. Maybe we can get
everyone together a room and duke it out or drink beer one day :)..
[snip]
My advice is to leave well alone. What I would do however is make
some
key aspects of the Guidelines a little more upfront when people
subscribe. I don't mean simply a pointer to the complete Guidelines, but
a *brief* list of the top points directly summarized in the confirmation
message.
I know that's been tried on other lists... Not sure how many people
read the subscribe confirmations though.. I think that lots of
behaviour will just have to be tolerated..
In other places (paid support mostly), there's a standard checklist
and FAQ. Often, users are sent to the FAQ or knowledge base even when
the problem is not addressed there, but by always talking about the
FAQ and knowledge base, it gains credence and does get better. I find
it hilarious when responses get the "lmgtfy" link though :)
The difference, IMHO, is that such a system works for paid support. On
this list, we sort of expect at least a cursory attempt to solve
problems before resorting to posting on the list. Many people don't do
this and see the list as their personal IT help line. That does cause
resentment that sometimes boils over into the comments. Add the fact
that some folks are more thin-skinned than they should be on a global
forum, and it's a wonder that stuff like this doesn't happen more
often. :/
6:46 a.m.
On Thursday 03 June 2010, Frank Murphy wrote:
Hope nobody Minds.
Frank
Thank you Frank.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
BOFH excuse #183:
filesystem not big enough for Jumbo Kernel Patch
12:09 a.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
I think the following.....
1. Everyone has an opinion. When the opinion is of a "personal",
subjective nature and the object of the opinion disagrees then they have
choices. Two possible choices are: either take it as a personal attack
and fight back or ignore it.
2. This list, and every list I've ever been on, has its "moments".
These "moments" can be protracted but are few and far between on this
list, IMHO. So, if someone just happens to join the list during one of
these moments, they may be turned off. I think that would be the
exception and not the rule. Going back and looking at the archives
would be one way to decide for oneself if this is true.
3. Guidelines are nice. Most of the time they are not needed and most
of the time they are not read by new comers before posting.
4. The written language can be a tricky thing in which to impart
emotion/intention. Aside from everyone clearly marking things "sarcasm,
rant, etc." it is quite easy to take things the wrong way or to take a
simple thing and blow it out of proportion. This makes #2 unavoidable,
IMHO. This can be especially true when not everyone on this list has a
common language/culture.
5. A currently congenial list is no guarantee that it will continue to
be so. To illustrate... A poster that I consider "new" recently
hijacked a thread and he was pointed to the guidelines in a manner I
thought benign. Apparently, that isn't how he saw it and darned if he
didn't respond in an "inappropriate" manner.
6. When #2 happens, the hardest thing is to "let it go" and contain the
urge to "have the last word/post" and maybe the opinion that having the
last word means everyone now agrees with you or that you are somehow
"right".
7. Sometimes I wonder if providing answers to questions on this list is
generally considered to be "contributing" to the Fedora Community.
8. Not pointing to this list, hosted by the "Fedora Project" with a
description/reputation of being a "get help here" list would be slap in
the face to the majority of people on this list.
9. I think everyone knows that nobody will like everybody the come in
contact. And that not everyone that comes in contact will like them.
And, that sometimes there seems no "good" reason why someone rubs one
the wrong way.
10. I can't decide if I want the Lakers or the Celtics to take the NBA
title.
5:44 a.m.
2010/6/3 Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>:
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 21:10 +0000, g wrote:
> it is now beginning to appear that you are better at evading my question
> than you are at designing web pages.
We're done here.
I'm amazed that you hung in here for as long!
Even without a link to torrents on
http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora, http://fedoraproject.org is an
excellent site.
9 p.m.
On Thursday 03 June 2010 06:49 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
Slightly OT: users of most modern mailers (Evolution, TBird, Kmail I
think, no doubt many others) should know that it's very easy to quote
only the part you want to comment on. Just select the relevant text
before you hit Reply.
A huge thank you for this bit of wisdom Patrick! I had no idea that was
possible. :-p
poc
--
Suvayu
Open source is the future. It sets us free.
4:33 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 17:11 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
If there are egregious examples of people getting out of hand, one
way
to handle it without escalting to the full list is to mail the list
admins directly, users-owner(a)lists.fedoraproject.org in this case. If
warranted, any list admin can place a member on moderation or warn
them that if they don't act more respectfully they will be moderated.
I would have liked to see that happen. It didn't appear to happen at
all.
~m
5:26 a.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 13:09 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
2. This list, and every list I've ever been on, has its
"moments".
These "moments" can be protracted but are few and far between on this
list, IMHO. So, if someone just happens to join the list during one of
these moments, they may be turned off. I think that would be the
exception and not the rule. Going back and looking at the archives
would be one way to decide for oneself if this is true.
3. Guidelines are nice. Most of the time they are not needed and most
of the time they are not read by new comers before posting.
4. The written language can be a tricky thing in which to impart
emotion/intention. Aside from everyone clearly marking things "sarcasm,
rant, etc." it is quite easy to take things the wrong way or to take a
simple thing and blow it out of proportion. This makes #2 unavoidable,
IMHO. This can be especially true when not everyone on this list has a
common language/culture.
I do think these three problems are exacerbated by the nature of email
and mailing lists. You send a mail, you can't take it back. Once a mail
goes out, people will have received it, so a moderator can't go back
after the fact and stop posting on a given topic. Actually there are no
per-topic controls on a mailing list.
Lately I've been thinking a lot about how alternative interfaces to
mailing lists might improve some of the problems inherent to them. I
actually set up a blog gateway and a forum gateway to the Fedora design
list. While it was primarily to solve a different problem (the largest
pool of designers out there for us to recruit from aren't familiar with
mailing lists at all), it might help here. If folks think it's a good
idea I'd be happy to help having something similar set up for this
list.
This is the blog one we have: http://linuxgrrl.com/drupal/
And this is the forum one we have: http://linuxgrrl.com/drupal/forum/1
~m
1:21 a.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 00:17:04 -0400, Máirín wrote:
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 21:01 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
> 2010/6/3 Máirín Duffy:
> > Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior? They are directed
> > towards this list right now via a number of different pointers. My team
> > is planning to redesign the Fedora website for Fedora 14, and I'm not
> > sure we can in good conscience continue to point new users to this list
>
> Let me get this straight: You remove relevant, helpful links from one
> Fedora site page and the user community explodes with queries,
> comments, and complaints about the omission. Now your response to this
> feedback is to suggest that *more* relevant, helpful links be removed
> from another page?
>
> I would laugh, but I think that you're serious.
I don't want to point people new to Fedora to a list with attitudes like
this and to come away with the notion that kind of treatment of people -
the dripping sarcasm, personal attacks, trolling - is representative of
Fedora. It's not. Maybe it's representative of this list (I haven't been
following it long enough to know for sure) but it is most certainly NOT
how things are done in Fedora.
So yes, a link to list this may not actually be a relevant and helpful
link for new users. There is some good rationale above as to why I
believe this, and unfortunately the tone of your response provides
further support.
Unfortunately, that's a message that does exactly the opposite of improving
the climate.
> Not all of the feedback from this list was unconstructive. Not
all of
> the responses were abusive or confrontational. But after reviewing the
> thread in question, I have to say that *many* of your responses were
> confrontational and many were, frankly, condescending. It didn't seem
> to matter whether the person you were replying to was trying to be
> constructive or snarky; your responses seemed designed to pour more
> fuel on the fire almost every time.
This is an unfair personal attack, and is not constructive especially
given the topic of the thread. Please let's talk about making things
better, and stop pointing fingers and making accusations.
Cool down. Alan has made some valid points. IMO.
6:06 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 17:33 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 17:11 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> If there are egregious examples of people getting out of hand, one way
> to handle it without escalting to the full list is to mail the list
> admins directly, users-owner(a)lists.fedoraproject.org in this case. If
> warranted, any list admin can place a member on moderation or warn
> them that if they don't act more respectfully they will be moderated.
I would have liked to see that happen. It didn't appear to happen at
all.
If I understand Todd's post correctly, the admins will entertain
requests for moderation of certain members, but such requests would have
to come from someone on the list. I wouldn't normally expect the admins
to act on their own except in extreme cases such as obvious spam. It
looks like no-one generated such a request in this case, including you.
Apologies if that's incorrect.
poc
3:31 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 13:15 -0700, Mike Fedyk wrote:
2010/6/3 Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>:
> On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 21:01 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
>> Not all of the feedback from this list was unconstructive. Not all of
>> the responses were abusive or confrontational. But after reviewing the
>> thread in question, I have to say that *many* of your responses were
>> confrontational and many were, frankly, condescending. It didn't seem
>> to matter whether the person you were replying to was trying to be
>> constructive or snarky; your responses seemed designed to pour more
>> fuel on the fire almost every time.
>
> This is an unfair personal attack, and is not constructive especially
> given the topic of the thread. Please let's talk about making things
> better, and stop pointing fingers and making accusations.
>
I have to agree with Alan here. Speaking of the intelligence of
people who use torrents should also know they have to google for it
does not speak well for you at all.
Again you continue to make this personal. Perhaps my position on the
ubiquity of torrents and how visible they should be on the website
differs from yours, but it is certainly unfair to make such loud and
negative judgements about me personally in response to my views.
Also pointing out the actions of a person is not a personal attack.
Unfair judgments on the actions of a person are an attack, especially
when made in response to a plea to stop making the discussion personal.
~m
3:15 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
2010/6/3 Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>:
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 21:01 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
> Not all of the feedback from this list was unconstructive. Not all of
> the responses were abusive or confrontational. But after reviewing the
> thread in question, I have to say that *many* of your responses were
> confrontational and many were, frankly, condescending. It didn't seem
> to matter whether the person you were replying to was trying to be
> constructive or snarky; your responses seemed designed to pour more
> fuel on the fire almost every time.
This is an unfair personal attack, and is not constructive especially
given the topic of the thread. Please let's talk about making things
better, and stop pointing fingers and making accusations.
I have to agree with Alan here. Speaking of the intelligence of
people who use torrents should also know they have to google for it
does not speak well for you at all.
Also pointing out the actions of a person is not a personal attack.
2:44 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 5:27 PM, g <geleem(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
Craig White wrote:
<snip>
> George - I think that you are very offensive towards people who
> volunteer their time. It's easy to understand why Fedora contributors
> don't actually want to participate on the user lists and get abused by
> unappreciative, sarcastic and combative users.
craig,
for someone who tends to make offensive remarks, no association to above,
i accept your judgment of what may appear, in your opinion, as meant to
be offensive.
but do know this, neither my intent, nor desire, was meant to be offending.
i do appreciate what fedora contributors do, both programmers and designers
of web pages. just as i appreciate contributors to this list.
i even complimented mairin on her abilities. her reply contained no
recognition of such, only irateness to my using 'ladies home journal'
strictly as a reference to where i felt her design would better fit.
if, in your opinion, what i wrote is 'unappreciative, sarcastic and combative'
towards any of contributers, then so be it, your opinion.
in other thread, i asked same question, where was notice of changing of web
page http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora, as i did in this thread.
thru all of this, an answer to my question was evaded with only replies of
pages that had nothing to do with my question.
now, if you wish to bat this back and forth, go ahead.
but do be aware that my intent was not as you seem to be in thinking.
I think the fact that you do not put your full name in the from line
in your posts shows at the very least you subconsciously do not want
your words attributed back to you.
Your posts are offensive, and your compliments are not sincere which
negates any positive they may have otherwise had.
11:17 a.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On 06/04/2010 09:43 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
My advice is to leave well alone. What I would do however is make some
key aspects of the Guidelines a little more upfront when people
subscribe. I don't mean simply a pointer to the complete Guidelines, but
a *brief* list of the top points directly summarized in the confirmation
message.
I concur with your observations. (I may have overly trimmed...but it is
midnight here...and it is Friday....oops Saturday.)
As I believe you have pointed out, some people prefer mailing lists over
blogs and forums. Those that do prefer mailing lists generally do know,
understand, and accept the warts inherent in mailing lists. As such, I
agree with you that things should be left as is and no radical response
or solution is necessary in the attempt to eliminate/avoid the "unusual
event".
FWIW, I believe we have returned to our regularly scheduled
programming. :-)
--
Scully: I've heard the truth. Now what I want are the answers. "The
X-Files: Paper Clip" 葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段
9:18 a.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 15:02 +0100, Michal wrote:
> My advice is to leave well alone. What I would do however is
make some
> key aspects of the Guidelines a little more upfront when people
> subscribe. I don't mean simply a pointer to the complete Guidelines, but
> a *brief* list of the top points directly summarized in the confirmation
> message.
>
> poc
>
Anyone who says "How do I install Firefox 64 Bit" Shouldn't not be
replied to. Anyone that does I reply off-list saying search it before
asking etc etc" but it does get tiring. On the BSD list if you ask such
stupid questions your often given either no response or a harsh one
I knew there was a reason I don't use BSD :-) Seriously, there's no
shame in asking if you don't know, and replying off-list means that
no-one else gets to see the answer. Maybe the newbie who asked the dumb
question will start to learn and eventually answer questions himself.
What I find more annoying is questions like "why can't I watch video?"
that give no information about what kind of video, or what version of
Fedora, or what viewing app, or what happens when the video is played,
or in fact anything at all that might help someone give a useful answer.
Asking the right questions is an art, and asking questions right is
another art.
poc
9:17 a.m.
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 21:18 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Craig White
<craigwhite(a)azapple.com> wrote:
> like Gene you have assumed that Máirín is a woman and I
> can't imagine any greater testimony to your arrogance and insensitivity
> of others but keep trying.
Not that I think that sex has any substantive relevance at all here,
but I'm pretty sure that Máirín is, in fact, a woman:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MairinDuffy
I don't think that making this assumption is in any way arrogant or
insensitive, however irrelevant it is.
----
oh yes it is - there are never assertions about gender if one thinks it
is a man but the whole infusion of gender into the discussion was
intentionally condescending, dismissive and arrogant. Then to drive home
his sexist point, he asserted that her design was better suited to
'Ladies Home Journal' and one would have to be entirely blind to miss
the use of gender as a means to belittle.
Now I recognize that both George and Gene are over 60 year old American
males who cannot transcend their frame of references but they really
should know better by now.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
9:02 a.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
My advice is to leave well alone. What I would do however is make
some
key aspects of the Guidelines a little more upfront when people
subscribe. I don't mean simply a pointer to the complete Guidelines, but
a *brief* list of the top points directly summarized in the confirmation
message.
poc
Anyone who says "How do I install Firefox 64 Bit" Shouldn't not be
replied to. Anyone that does I reply off-list saying search it before
asking etc etc" but it does get tiring. On the BSD list if you ask such
stupid questions your often given either no response or a harsh one
8:43 a.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 06:26 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
Lately I've been thinking a lot about how alternative interfaces
to
mailing lists might improve some of the problems inherent to them. I
actually set up a blog gateway and a forum gateway to the Fedora
design list. While it was primarily to solve a different problem (the
largest pool of designers out there for us to recruit from aren't
familiar with mailing lists at all), it might help here. If folks
think it's a good idea I'd be happy to help having something similar
set up for this list.
Speaking as someone who's managed a number of large lists (in the
hundreds to thousands of members), I'm keenly attuned to the problems
that can arise when a small minority doesn't behave as they should.
However this is in the nature of large communities. Technical solutions
such as changing to a forum format are not going to cut it, not least
because many people are going to want to stick with the mailing list, so
you're going to end up with two interfaces, only one of which you can
control.
It's always tempting to propose radical solutions when some unusual
event occurs (see most responses to terrorist incidents for a real-world
parallel). My view is that the recent slug-fest over the Fedora webpage
design is not typical, and has mostly died down. It doesn't *need* a
radical response, and the same goes for the occasional spats that crop
up from time to time. Those directly involved may feel strongly, may
even feel personally wounded, but the majority of the list is on the
sidelines and presumably just want it all to go away so we can get back
to our regularly-scheduled programming. Fortunately the use of threads
helps a lot in ignoring the parts one doesn't care about, except for the
rare occasions where someone hijacks a thread (though this doesn't seem
to happen with the kind of thread we're talking about).
My advice is to leave well alone. What I would do however is make some
key aspects of the Guidelines a little more upfront when people
subscribe. I don't mean simply a pointer to the complete Guidelines, but
a *brief* list of the top points directly summarized in the confirmation
message.
poc
8:49 p.m.
On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 09:58 +0930, Tim wrote:
Separate your responses. Just quote the bit you need to, dump the
rest, in its entirety.
Well said Tim (your whole message, not just this bit :-)
Slightly OT: users of most modern mailers (Evolution, TBird, Kmail I
think, no doubt many others) should know that it's very easy to quote
only the part you want to comment on. Just select the relevant text
before you hit Reply. And if you can, avoid webmail systems when posting
to lists. They all suck (Yahoo is the worst, but the others are not much
better).
poc
11:08 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
Choose a good subject - Do not make your subject say just
"Help slax newbie" nobody wants to hear this. Describe your
problem briefly in your subject, then you can describe your
problem in greater depth in the body of your article. Repeat
the subject in the body if it will make things clearer.
Avoid "subject says all" etc. A better subject might have
been "X Windows crashes whenever I run program foo.
Sadly, I just CUT+PASTED from slax forum:
http://www.slax.org/forum.php?action=view&parentID=60111&highligh...
sed -i 's/slax/Fedora/'
Here: "Help slax newbie"
to "Help Fedora newbie"
I hit the reply button too soon :(
Regards,
Antonio
12:50 a.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
2010/6/4 Máirín Duffy <duffy fedoraproject.org>:
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 16:56 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> George - I think that you are very offensive towards people who
> volunteer their time. It's easy to understand why Fedora contributors
> don't actually want to participate on the user lists and get abused by
> unappreciative, sarcastic and combative users.
How do we fix this?
- moderation?
- a code of conduct?
- ?
I remember list police being assigned when the list name last changed
they seem to be mia.
I've found some of the behavior of a few on this list to be
quite
embarrassing. To me, it seems an alien island in the middle of the
Fedora community that I know to be a genuinely warm, friendly, and
welcoming place.
As you say its a few folk, nothing a moderator with authority cant
handle, failing that you quote yourself an example of the list
policing itself.
Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior? They are
directed
towards this list right now via a number of different pointers. My team
is planning to redesign the Fedora website for Fedora 14, and I'm not
sure we can in good conscience continue to point new users to this list
[1].
Hmm I'm wondering a Fedora without a user list :-(
do we have anyone willing to take on the responsibility of moderating?
I'll have a go if 3 other users are !!!
do I have to read this? :-)
...dex
11:18 p.m.
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com> wrote:
like Gene you have assumed that Máirín is a woman and I
can't imagine any greater testimony to your arrogance and insensitivity
of others but keep trying.
Not that I think that sex has any substantive relevance at all here,
but I'm pretty sure that Máirín is, in fact, a woman:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MairinDuffy
I don't think that making this assumption is in any way arrogant or
insensitive, however irrelevant it is.
-Alan
11:17 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 21:01 -0700, Alan Evans wrote:
2010/6/3 Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>:
> Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior? They are directed
> towards this list right now via a number of different pointers. My team
> is planning to redesign the Fedora website for Fedora 14, and I'm not
> sure we can in good conscience continue to point new users to this list
Let me get this straight: You remove relevant, helpful links from one
Fedora site page and the user community explodes with queries,
comments, and complaints about the omission. Now your response to this
feedback is to suggest that *more* relevant, helpful links be removed
from another page?
I would laugh, but I think that you're serious.
I don't want to point people new to Fedora to a list with attitudes like
this and to come away with the notion that kind of treatment of people -
the dripping sarcasm, personal attacks, trolling - is representative of
Fedora. It's not. Maybe it's representative of this list (I haven't been
following it long enough to know for sure) but it is most certainly NOT
how things are done in Fedora.
So yes, a link to list this may not actually be a relevant and helpful
link for new users. There is some good rationale above as to why I
believe this, and unfortunately the tone of your response provides
further support.
Not all of the feedback from this list was unconstructive. Not all
of
the responses were abusive or confrontational. But after reviewing the
thread in question, I have to say that *many* of your responses were
confrontational and many were, frankly, condescending. It didn't seem
to matter whether the person you were replying to was trying to be
constructive or snarky; your responses seemed designed to pour more
fuel on the fire almost every time.
This is an unfair personal attack, and is not constructive especially
given the topic of the thread. Please let's talk about making things
better, and stop pointing fingers and making accusations.
~m
11:01 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
2010/6/3 Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>:
Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior? They are
directed
towards this list right now via a number of different pointers. My team
is planning to redesign the Fedora website for Fedora 14, and I'm not
sure we can in good conscience continue to point new users to this list
Let me get this straight: You remove relevant, helpful links from one
Fedora site page and the user community explodes with queries,
comments, and complaints about the omission. Now your response to this
feedback is to suggest that *more* relevant, helpful links be removed
from another page?
I would laugh, but I think that you're serious.
Not all of the feedback from this list was unconstructive. Not all of
the responses were abusive or confrontational. But after reviewing the
thread in question, I have to say that *many* of your responses were
confrontational and many were, frankly, condescending. It didn't seem
to matter whether the person you were replying to was trying to be
constructive or snarky; your responses seemed designed to pour more
fuel on the fire almost every time.
Consider moderating yourself before you come to this list and preach
to us about how we need to be moderated.
-Alan
10:59 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
--- On Thu, 6/3/10, Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
From: Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>
Subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
To: "Community support for Fedora users" <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>
Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 8:11 PM
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 16:56 -0700,
Craig White wrote:
> George - I think that you are very offensive towards
people who
> volunteer their time. It's easy to understand why
Fedora contributors
> don't actually want to participate on the user lists
and get abused by
> unappreciative, sarcastic and combative users.
How do we fix this?
- moderation?
- a code of conduct?
- ?
I've found some of the behavior of a few on this list to be
quite
embarrassing. To me, it seems an alien island in the middle
of the
Fedora community that I know to be a genuinely warm,
friendly, and
welcoming place.
Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior? They
are directed
towards this list right now via a number of different
pointers. My team
is planning to redesign the Fedora website for Fedora 14,
and I'm not
sure we can in good conscience continue to point new users
to this list
[1].
Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve this
situation? We've had a
small few but notable trolls in the past 6 years on the
Fedora
art/design lists, and the one solution that seemed to work
best was
placing badly-behaving folks on moderation for a few weeks.
I don't know
if that would be the appropriate solution here, though. For
example, do
we have anyone willing to take on the responsibility of
moderating?
~m
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-help
--
The end users (us) have many things to say, but in the end, the Fedora Project does
whatever they had in mind not taking many things into consideration.
At distrowatch^{2} I will quote what they have about the Fedora Project
\begin{quote}
The Fedora Project is an openly-developed project designed by Red Hat, open for general
participation, led by a meritocracy, following a set of project objectives. The goal of
The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a complete, general
purpose operating system exclusively from open source software. Development will be done
in a public forum. The project will produce time-based releases of Fedora about 2-3 times
a year, with a public release schedule. The Red Hat engineering team will continue to
participate in building Fedora and will invite and encourage more outside participation
than in past releases. By using this more open process, we hope to provide an operating
system more in line with the ideals of free software and more appealing to the open source
community.
\end{quote}
If users have anything to say, their idea(s) get shot down from above. What does that
portray? Do the end users really feel at home?
Sure that is why many act beligerant/defiant and question many things. If the Fedora
Project wants more participation, then let the community comment (whether its is
good/bad/ugly who is to decide). I know that there are guidelines, but just like Speed
Limits on our highways, these rules are broken. What are the consequences going to be?
It is a priviledge to be on the list and get advice/help/suggestions from the community.
Since Fedora is Free, the phrase, "The customer is always right unfortunately does
not apply". I have participated in BIG, I would say HUGE attention getting threads
here at Fedora over the years, and I can say that You have not seen anything yet. When I
write something nowadays, it seems that many folks don't want to listen or have me in
their blacklists :(, I believe I have done nothing wrong but that is another thing.
Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior?
Nothing
in life is perfect and we as a community are far from perfect, nobody is perfect and this
is REALITY. What is wrong with this behavior?
We are a special group of people that use Fedora and each of us has a say/opinion about
the direction and has a right to question the many things that get done. Sadly, many
folks get directed to /dev/null, are directed to join other lists if they want to voice
their opionions and then most of what they wanted does not get done or takes a while to
get done.
Some folks get directed towards filing bugs, but many of them get CLOSED(NOT A BUG), or
are open technically forever with no fix in sight, but you did your job and you should be
happy that you did try to fix the issues that you encountered.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve this
situation?
The complaints/rants will be a part of the list regardless of what is going on. For a few
people, Fedora meets their needs and they are happy quiet users that are grateful to the
Fedora project for their offering (Getting to use future Red Hat Linux products now in the
present without having to $$) You can't please people all of the time. Just do the
best that you can and not look back.
- a code of conduct?
This could be subjective, who will create the rules? Will the users have a say? Will
words like fsck the filesystem be interpreted differently than what some people interpret?
How will people deal with humerous quotations, biblical references, other kinds of
quotations, kernel lines? GNU vs GNU/Linux threads, KDE vs GNOME, ???
The gentoo forums have a set of common rules:
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-525.html
I will post a few that I think are some that are good:
Choose a good subject - Do not make your subject say just "Help slax newbie"
nobody wants to hear this. Describe your problem briefly in your subject, then you can
describe your problem in greater depth in the body of your article. Repeat the subject in
the body if it will make things clearer. Avoid "subject says all" etc. A better
subject might have been "X Windows crashes whenever I run program foo.
Use common sense - Just because it isn't explicitly stated as one of the rules below
doesn't mean it's OK. Use common sense and good etiquette when posting, replying
and browsing these forums. This includes the following:
* No posts for the sole purpose of increasing your postcount.
* No "senseless" posts. Yes, its subjective. As a subjective way to help
understand, if a coherent conversation cannot be read in the thread, it might be
senseless.
* Keep the forums free from SPAM. This means no SPAM posting, no unsolicited messaging.
Also, please do not reply to SPAM, just report it.
* No Quote pyramids.
Thank those who help you - If you post a problem and someone helps you, simply replying
with a thank you message or an acknowledgement that their suggestions worked are very much
appreciated.
When your problem was solved - add [SOLVED] to the thread name. It'll make easier to
search for working solution (not [solved], [sOlVeD], just [SOLVED]).
When you found an answer yourself - please describe how you did it rather than posting:
"It's ok now" or "I have found it!"
One thread - one topic.
Keep on topic - If you are replying about something to do with iptables for example, and
someone mentions a configuration tool that runs in KDE, don't start talking about KDE,
stick to the topic. Go start a new topic and post a link to the old one if there is
relevant information there.
No personal attacks - These forums are not a place for you to take cheap shots at
somebody because he/she did something. Do that some place else (or better yet, get over
it). You have been warned. Hopefully, this won't be much of a problem here.
Illegal activites - Please do not discuss illegal activities, such as cracking software,
breaking into web sites, etc. on these forums. While such activities might not be illegal
in all countries, this server is hosted in the US and, as such, must abide by US laws. By
allowing discussions about illegal activities to take place on these forums, we may expose
the Slax project to unnecessary legal liability.
Cross posting - Please do not post about the same subject multiple times. One thread is
sufficient.
Multiple accounts - Each person should have only one account.
These are sine good ones and I am sure that more can be added, by the users. Make them
feel comfortable letting them pick some of the rules.
For
example, do
we have anyone willing to take on the responsibility of
moderating?
I can try to help, if there is a demand for it. Can other users trust my judgements here?
I have helped a bit in other forums. Who will the Fedora Project pick? Can I help? Do
I need to subscribe to another list, Do I need special training?
These are questions one asks about such things.
These are just a few viewpoints of a user. I have been a user since 2002/2003 of Fedora
and a member of this list since 2004. I have seen many things here. Don't worry,
many of the users are nice people. If they responded the way they did, was because they
were left out and did not know about the things that were happening behind the scences.
IT was just a big MISUNDERSTANDING and we need to move on. This might happen again, but
all parties did their part in posting what they felt. This should be allowed. Criticisms
should be left at that and not be taken as offensive. You can't take any comment
personally, if one did, we should not be here. I hope that I did not just rant on, or
posted something irrelevant. But I hope that some points that I have made are understood.
Regards,
Antonio
Fedora user since Fedora 2
Red Hat 8.0 and Red Hat 9.0 (Shrike)
I don't agree with all the policies of Fedora, but I do appreciate that I can get a
Fedora system and add to it the missing pieces. Thanks to all who work on it and improve
it.
{2} http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=fedora
10:59 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
--- On Thu, 6/3/10, Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
From: Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)fedoraproject.org>
Subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
To: "Community support for Fedora users" <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>
Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 8:11 PM
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 16:56 -0700,
Craig White wrote:
> George - I think that you are very offensive towards
people who
> volunteer their time. It's easy to understand why
Fedora contributors
> don't actually want to participate on the user lists
and get abused by
> unappreciative, sarcastic and combative users.
How do we fix this?
- moderation?
- a code of conduct?
- ?
I've found some of the behavior of a few on this list to be
quite
embarrassing. To me, it seems an alien island in the middle
of the
Fedora community that I know to be a genuinely warm,
friendly, and
welcoming place.
Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior? They
are directed
towards this list right now via a number of different
pointers. My team
is planning to redesign the Fedora website for Fedora 14,
and I'm not
sure we can in good conscience continue to point new users
to this list
[1].
Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve this
situation? We've had a
small few but notable trolls in the past 6 years on the
Fedora
art/design lists, and the one solution that seemed to work
best was
placing badly-behaving folks on moderation for a few weeks.
I don't know
if that would be the appropriate solution here, though. For
example, do
we have anyone willing to take on the responsibility of
moderating?
~m
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-help
--
The end users (us) have many things to say, but in the end, the Fedora Project does
whatever they had in mind not taking many things into consideration.
At distrowatch^{2} I will quote what they have about the Fedora Project
\begin{quote}
The Fedora Project is an openly-developed project designed by Red Hat, open for general
participation, led by a meritocracy, following a set of project objectives. The goal of
The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a complete, general
purpose operating system exclusively from open source software. Development will be done
in a public forum. The project will produce time-based releases of Fedora about 2-3 times
a year, with a public release schedule. The Red Hat engineering team will continue to
participate in building Fedora and will invite and encourage more outside participation
than in past releases. By using this more open process, we hope to provide an operating
system more in line with the ideals of free software and more appealing to the open source
community.
\end{quote}
If users have anything to say, their idea(s) get shot down from above. What does that
portray? Do the end users really feel at home?
Sure that is why many act beligerant/defiant and question many things. If the Fedora
Project wants more participation, then let the community comment (whether its is
good/bad/ugly who is to decide). I know that there are guidelines, but just like Speed
Limits on our highways, these rules are broken. What are the consequences going to be?
It is a priviledge to be on the list and get advice/help/suggestions from the community.
Since Fedora is Free, the phrase, "The customer is always right unfortunately does
not apply". I have participated in BIG, I would say HUGE attention getting threads
here at Fedora over the years, and I can say that You have not seen anything yet. When I
write something nowadays, it seems that many folks don't want to listen or have me in
their blacklists :(, I believe I have done nothing wrong but that is another thing.
Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior?
Nothing
in life is perfect and we as a community are far from perfect, nobody is perfect and this
is REALITY. What is wrong with this behavior?
We are a special group of people that use Fedora and each of us has a say/opinion about
the direction and has a right to question the many things that get done. Sadly, many
folks get directed to /dev/null, are directed to join other lists if they want to voice
their opionions and then most of what they wanted does not get done or takes a while to
get done.
Some folks get directed towards filing bugs, but many of them get CLOSED(NOT A BUG), or
are open technically forever with no fix in sight, but you did your job and you should be
happy that you did try to fix the issues that you encountered.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve this
situation?
The complaints/rants will be a part of the list regardless of what is going on. For a few
people, Fedora meets their needs and they are happy quiet users that are grateful to the
Fedora project for their offering (Getting to use future Red Hat Linux products now in the
present without having to $$) You can't please people all of the time. Just do the
best that you can and not look back.
- a code of conduct?
This could be subjective, who will create the rules? Will the users have a say? Will
words like fsck the filesystem be interpreted differently than what some people interpret?
How will people deal with humerous quotations, biblical references, other kinds of
quotations, kernel lines? GNU vs GNU/Linux threads, KDE vs GNOME, ???
The gentoo forums have a set of common rules:
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-525.html
I will post a few that I think are some that are good:
Choose a good subject - Do not make your subject say just "Help slax newbie"
nobody wants to hear this. Describe your problem briefly in your subject, then you can
describe your problem in greater depth in the body of your article. Repeat the subject in
the body if it will make things clearer. Avoid "subject says all" etc. A better
subject might have been "X Windows crashes whenever I run program foo.
Use common sense - Just because it isn't explicitly stated as one of the rules below
doesn't mean it's OK. Use common sense and good etiquette when posting, replying
and browsing these forums. This includes the following:
* No posts for the sole purpose of increasing your postcount.
* No "senseless" posts. Yes, its subjective. As a subjective way to help
understand, if a coherent conversation cannot be read in the thread, it might be
senseless.
* Keep the forums free from SPAM. This means no SPAM posting, no unsolicited messaging.
Also, please do not reply to SPAM, just report it.
* No Quote pyramids.
Thank those who help you - If you post a problem and someone helps you, simply replying
with a thank you message or an acknowledgement that their suggestions worked are very much
appreciated.
When your problem was solved - add [SOLVED] to the thread name. It'll make easier to
search for working solution (not [solved], [sOlVeD], just [SOLVED]).
When you found an answer yourself - please describe how you did it rather than posting:
"It's ok now" or "I have found it!"
One thread - one topic.
Keep on topic - If you are replying about something to do with iptables for example, and
someone mentions a configuration tool that runs in KDE, don't start talking about KDE,
stick to the topic. Go start a new topic and post a link to the old one if there is
relevant information there.
No personal attacks - These forums are not a place for you to take cheap shots at
somebody because he/she did something. Do that some place else (or better yet, get over
it). You have been warned. Hopefully, this won't be much of a problem here.
Illegal activites - Please do not discuss illegal activities, such as cracking software,
breaking into web sites, etc. on these forums. While such activities might not be illegal
in all countries, this server is hosted in the US and, as such, must abide by US laws. By
allowing discussions about illegal activities to take place on these forums, we may expose
the Slax project to unnecessary legal liability.
Cross posting - Please do not post about the same subject multiple times. One thread is
sufficient.
Multiple accounts - Each person should have only one account.
These are sine good ones and I am sure that more can be added, by the users. Make them
feel comfortable letting them pick some of the rules.
For
example, do
we have anyone willing to take on the responsibility of
moderating?
I can try to help, if there is a demand for it. Can other users trust my judgements here?
I have helped a bit in other forums. Who will the Fedora Project pick? Can I help? Do
I need to subscribe to another list, Do I need special training?
These are questions one asks about such things.
These are just a few viewpoints of a user. I have been a user since 2002/2003 of Fedora
and a member of this list since 2004. I have seen many things here. Don't worry,
many of the users are nice people. If they responded the way they did, was because they
were left out and did not know about the things that were happening behind the scences.
IT was just a big MISUNDERSTANDING and we need to move on. This might happen again, but
all parties did their part in posting what they felt. This should be allowed. Criticisms
should be left at that and not be taken as offensive. You can't take any comment
personally, if one did, we should not be here. I hope that I did not just rant on, or
posted something irrelevant. But I hope that some points that I have made are understood.
Regards,
Antonio
Fedora user since Fedora 2
Red Hat 8.0 and Red Hat 9.0 (Shrike)
I don't agree with all the policies of Fedora, but I do appreciate that I can get a
Fedoras
{2} http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=fedora
10:56 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 23:11 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 16:56 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> George - I think that you are very offensive towards people who
> volunteer their time. It's easy to understand why Fedora contributors
> don't actually want to participate on the user lists and get abused by
> unappreciative, sarcastic and combative users.
How do we fix this?
- moderation?
- a code of conduct?
- ?
I've found some of the behavior of a few on this list to be quite
embarrassing. To me, it seems an alien island in the middle of the
Fedora community that I know to be a genuinely warm, friendly, and
welcoming place.
Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior? They are directed
towards this list right now via a number of different pointers. My team
is planning to redesign the Fedora website for Fedora 14, and I'm not
sure we can in good conscience continue to point new users to this list
[1].
Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve this situation? We've had a
small few but notable trolls in the past 6 years on the Fedora
art/design lists, and the one solution that seemed to work best was
placing badly-behaving folks on moderation for a few weeks. I don't know
if that would be the appropriate solution here, though. For example, do
we have anyone willing to take on the responsibility of moderating?
----
you can't make people behave so the better notion is to try to ignore
them or get a thick enough skin to shout them down without losing your
own cool - as in calling people names.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
10:55 p.m.
On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 00:27 +0000, g wrote:
Craig White wrote:
<snip>
> George - I think that you are very offensive towards people who
> volunteer their time. It's easy to understand why Fedora contributors
> don't actually want to participate on the user lists and get abused by
> unappreciative, sarcastic and combative users.
craig,
for someone who tends to make offensive remarks, no association to above,
i accept your judgment of what may appear, in your opinion, as meant to
be offensive.
but do know this, neither my intent, nor desire, was meant to be offending.
i do appreciate what fedora contributors do, both programmers and designers
of web pages. just as i appreciate contributors to this list.
i even complimented mairin on her abilities. her reply contained no
recognition of such, only irateness to my using 'ladies home journal'
strictly as a reference to where i felt her design would better fit.
if, in your opinion, what i wrote is 'unappreciative, sarcastic and combative'
towards any of contributers, then so be it, your opinion.
in other thread, i asked same question, where was notice of changing of web
page http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora, as i did in this thread.
thru all of this, an answer to my question was evaded with only replies of
pages that had nothing to do with my question.
now, if you wish to bat this back and forth, go ahead.
but do be aware that my intent was not as you seem to be in thinking.
----
whatever your intent was, it was in my mind lost.
There wasn't any 'IF' in my opinion, you completely came off as
unappreciative, sarcastic and combative, not just once but repeatedly.
I can't put my assessment in any simpler terms.
Just to pile on, like Gene you have assumed that Máirín is a woman and I
can't imagine any greater testimony to your arrogance and insensitivity
of others but keep trying.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
10:11 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 16:56 -0700, Craig White wrote:
George - I think that you are very offensive towards people who
volunteer their time. It's easy to understand why Fedora contributors
don't actually want to participate on the user lists and get abused by
unappreciative, sarcastic and combative users.
How do we fix this?
- moderation?
- a code of conduct?
- ?
I've found some of the behavior of a few on this list to be quite
embarrassing. To me, it seems an alien island in the middle of the
Fedora community that I know to be a genuinely warm, friendly, and
welcoming place.
Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior? They are directed
towards this list right now via a number of different pointers. My team
is planning to redesign the Fedora website for Fedora 14, and I'm not
sure we can in good conscience continue to point new users to this list
[1].
Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve this situation? We've had a
small few but notable trolls in the past 6 years on the Fedora
art/design lists, and the one solution that seemed to work best was
placing badly-behaving folks on moderation for a few weeks. I don't know
if that would be the appropriate solution here, though. For example, do
we have anyone willing to take on the responsibility of moderating?
~m
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-help
9:21 p.m.
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 19:00 -0700, Suvayu Ali wrote:
On Thursday 03 June 2010 06:49 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Slightly OT: users of most modern mailers (Evolution, TBird, Kmail I
> think, no doubt many others) should know that it's very easy to
quote
> only the part you want to comment on. Just select the relevant text
> before you hit Reply.
A huge thank you for this bit of wisdom Patrick! I had no idea that
was possible. :-p
Sometimes obvious things need to be said, because they're so obvious
no-one ever bothers to say them, and then it turns out they weren't in
fact so obvious after all.
poc
7:59 p.m.
On 06/04/2010 08:28 AM, Tim wrote:
> 2. Forwarding edited messages could result in portions being removed
> that some would find useful. (Why does the person forwarding get to
> decide what is "important"?)
>
I don't really agree on the above. Firstly, please don't forward such
messages, seriously, don't. There's no need.
I see your point. However, my #2 was meant to be only in the context of
forwarding FWN in the attempt to make people who don't subscribe to the
"Announce" list *aware*. Yes, it wasn't clear. I think I'm simply
saying that regular forwarding of periodic postings from other lists
should be discouraged, especially edited ones.
And, I agree with your observation about wasting resources.
--
If some people didn't tell you, you'd never know they'd been away on
vacation. 葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段
7:28 p.m.
On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 03:56 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
I could see how some would object and I could see several reasons
why
it is a not so good idea.
So can I, and the first thing that sprang to mind was the next thing you
said:
1. Having an informal method of forwarding messages from other
lists
could lead to multiple people deciding to forward the same and
additional messages from other lists that they feel are "useful". All
potentially causing "list pollution". So, it should be discouraged.
I've been on lists which just get deluged with forwarded crap. Some of
it seemingly random, others of it repeats of things we otherwise get,
and people who keep on posting off-topics from semi-related lists
because "if they didn't post it here, they say you wouldn't get to see
it." Clue - if we wanted to see it, we'd look at it where it was, and
when we don't subscribe to the other things, that was by choice.
Personally, I find it annoying to have a huge post repeated,
unnecessarily. Unnecessary because I'm subscribed to the list it's
posted to, unnecessary because everyone else can subscribe as well,
unnecessary because the whole thing is permanently available on a
website that the poster could have just said "hey, the new newsletter's
just been released at this address...," in a short email, rather than
waste everyone's bandwidth.
2. Forwarding edited messages could result in portions being
removed
that some would find useful. (Why does the person forwarding get to
decide what is "important"?)
I don't really agree on the above. Firstly, please don't forward such
messages, seriously, don't. There's no need.
Secondly, on the other hand, if there was something you saw in the
newsletter post that caught your interest, and you wanted to comment on
that, and it's relevant to this list, then sure, respond to that bit and
discuss it. Don't throw the whole thing at us. If someone else feels
they'd like to discuss another aspect of that newsletter, they're free
to do that, as well, in the same way (respond to the bit that they're
interested in).
People seriously need to learn about posting edited messages to this
list. There's been a run of unnecessary full-quoted messages with
two-liner replies, over and over. It's a right pain to read, especially
when they bury responses in the middle of the quotes without spacing
things apart so you can't see the responses.
Separate your responses. Just quote the bit you need to, dump the rest,
in its entirety. It wastes everyone's storage space and bandwidth, and
that includes the Fedora project's mail servers. Think about that,
you're wasting the money that supports Fedora.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
7:27 p.m.
Craig White wrote:
<snip>
George - I think that you are very offensive towards people who
volunteer their time. It's easy to understand why Fedora contributors
don't actually want to participate on the user lists and get abused by
unappreciative, sarcastic and combative users.
craig,
for someone who tends to make offensive remarks, no association to above,
i accept your judgment of what may appear, in your opinion, as meant to
be offensive.
but do know this, neither my intent, nor desire, was meant to be offending.
i do appreciate what fedora contributors do, both programmers and designers
of web pages. just as i appreciate contributors to this list.
i even complimented mairin on her abilities. her reply contained no
recognition of such, only irateness to my using 'ladies home journal'
strictly as a reference to where i felt her design would better fit.
if, in your opinion, what i wrote is 'unappreciative, sarcastic and combative'
towards any of contributers, then so be it, your opinion.
in other thread, i asked same question, where was notice of changing of web
page http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora, as i did in this thread.
thru all of this, an answer to my question was evaded with only replies of
pages that had nothing to do with my question.
now, if you wish to bat this back and forth, go ahead.
but do be aware that my intent was not as you seem to be in thinking.
--
peace out.
tc,hago.
g
.
****
in a free world without fences, who needs gates.
**
help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today.
**
to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it.
to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it.
**
learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html
'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/
****
6:56 p.m.
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 22:18 +0000, g wrote:
Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 21:10 +0000, g wrote:
>> it is now beginning to appear that you are better at evading my question
>> than you are at designing web pages.
>
> We're done here.
may be that you are because;
your final evasion is an obvious admission that there was no announcement
that 'fedora get' page would actually to be changed, was ever announced.
thank you for your finial honesty.
> Have a nice day,
this day was already enjoyable. :D
you admission has made this day a little nicer. :b
----
George - I think that you are very offensive towards people who
volunteer their time. It's easy to understand why Fedora contributors
don't actually want to participate on the user lists and get abused by
unappreciative, sarcastic and combative users.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
5:27 p.m.
On 03/06/10 20:56, Ed Greshko wrote:
>
I could see how some would object and I could see several reasons why it
is a not so good idea.
I know what you mean Ed,
But, find it a hard one to call as some were calling for info here,
in my head (maybe not the lcu) it was those was trying to reach.
What might work if ther was consensus to it.
Just a weekly link to the FWN archive?
--
Regards,
Frank Murphy
UTF_8 Encoded
Friend of Fedora
5:18 p.m.
Máirín Duffy wrote:
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 21:10 +0000, g wrote:
> it is now beginning to appear that you are better at evading my question
> than you are at designing web pages.
We're done here.
may be that you are because;
your final evasion is an obvious admission that there was no announcement
that 'fedora get' page would actually to be changed, was ever announced.
thank you for your finial honesty.
Have a nice day,
this day was already enjoyable. :D
you admission has made this day a little nicer. :b
--
peace out.
tc,hago.
g
.
****
in a free world without fences, who needs gates.
**
help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today.
**
to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it.
to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it.
**
learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html
'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/
****
4:10 p.m.
Máirín Duffy wrote:
<snip>
Actually that post had plenty to do with what was used on the site
for
get.fpo. Did you read it? That's the blog post where the first get.fpo
mockup was presented - the set of mockups links includes the first
mockup we did for the get.fpo that is up right now:
again, you are still evading my question and not answering question.
a *mockup* [1] is nothing more than that and is not an *actual* [2] of
what is intended.
[1] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mockup
[2] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/actual
<snip>
If you are actually interested, you'll find more - I have other
things I
need to do than look this up for you.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue191#Download_Survey
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue192#General
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue194#General
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue197#General
even more evading. non of above show anything of original page posted at
*http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora*, which was later changed to include
links that where missing.
it is now beginning to appear that you are better at evading my question
than you are at designing web pages.
--
peace out.
tc,hago.
g
.
****
in a free world without fences, who needs gates.
**
help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today.
**
to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it.
to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it.
**
learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html
'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/
****
3:45 p.m.
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 20:18 +0000, g wrote:
Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 19:32 +0000, g wrote:
>> MáirÃn Duffy wrote: <snip>
>>
>>> The web redesign was in FWN multiple times and if FWN was sent to
>>> announce-list
>> exactly which fwn where announcements in?
>
> Frank already posted one of the references to the FWN/announce-list notice
> of the redesign back from August on this list last week:
>
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2010-May/373616.html
which relates to fwn 188.
which led to a page that was not used and had noting to do with page
that was used on fedora project site.
Actually that post had plenty to do with what was used on the site for
get.fpo. Did you read it? That's the blog post where the first get.fpo
mockup was presented - the set of mockups links includes the first
mockup we did for the get.fpo that is up right now:
http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png
> so I'm quite surprised to see you asking this since Frank
made that post on
> this list. Is the problem really the content isn't posted, or that folks
> don't read it?
most highly evasive to my above quoted question which you appear to refuse
to answered.
"Most highly evasive"? What?
Here, I sat and read through a handful of FWNs from the time period a
lot of work was going on for those mockups since it seems that's what
you want, and it seems as if you won't take my word for it.
If you are actually interested, you'll find more - I have other things I
need to do than look this up for you.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue191#Download_Survey
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue192#General
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue194#General
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue197#General
~m
3:18 p.m.
Máirín Duffy wrote:
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 19:32 +0000, g wrote:
> MáirÃn Duffy wrote: <snip>
>
>> The web redesign was in FWN multiple times and if FWN was sent to
>> announce-list
> exactly which fwn where announcements in?
Frank already posted one of the references to the FWN/announce-list notice
of the redesign back from August on this list last week:
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2010-May/373616.html
which relates to fwn 188.
which led to a page that was not used and had noting to do with page
that was used on fedora project site.
in particular, http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora, which jud craft made
his posted in reference to.
Now, I am quite sure you are on *this* mailing list and have been
over the
past week,
in total, a bit longer.
so I'm quite surprised to see you asking this since Frank made
that post on
this list. Is the problem really the content isn't posted, or that folks
don't read it?
most highly evasive to my above quoted question which you appear to refuse
to answered.
--
peace out.
tc,hago.
g
.
****
in a free world without fences, who needs gates.
**
help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today.
**
to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it.
to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it.
**
learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html
'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/
****
2:56 p.m.
On 06/03/2010 04:59 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
On 03/06/10 09:44, g wrote:
> Frank Murphy wrote:
>
>> Hope nobody Minds.
>>
>> Frank
>>
> hi frank,
>
> not at all.
>
> i get fwn, too.
>
> i was going to forward it also.
>
> but i thought about snipping it down to what might be pertinent to recent
> events. :D
>
>
I'll let you do it then?,
as your shears may be better than mine.
I could see how some would object and I could see several reasons why it
is a not so good idea.
1. Having an informal method of forwarding messages from other lists
could lead to multiple people deciding to forward the same and
additional messages from other lists that they feel are "useful". All
potentially causing "list pollution". So, it should be discouraged.
2. Forwarding edited messages could result in portions being removed
that some would find useful. (Why does the person forwarding get to
decide what is "important"?)
3. Forwarding weekly/monthly messages in a manual way should include
the commitment to do it long term and without delay. e.g. no delayed
forwarding because one is "on vacation".
It doesn't bother me too much since I would just ignore it. Generally,
I do prefer to get only messages from lists to which I've subscribed.
Besides, this is only being done as a knee-jerk reaction to recent events.
--
Knock, knock! Who's there? Sam and Janet. Sam and Janet who? Sam and
Janet Evening... 葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段
2:45 p.m.
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 19:32 +0000, g wrote:
Máirín Duffy wrote:
<snip>
> The web redesign was in FWN multiple times and if FWN was sent to
> announce-list
exactly which fwn where announcements in?
Frank already posted one of the references to the FWN/announce-list
notice of the redesign back from August on this list last week:
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2010-May/373616.html
Now, I am quite sure you are on *this* mailing list and have been over
the past week, so I'm quite surprised to see you asking this since Frank
made that post on this list. Is the problem really the content isn't
posted, or that folks don't read it?
~m
2:32 p.m.
Máirín Duffy wrote:
<snip>
The web redesign was in FWN multiple times and if FWN was sent to
announce-list
exactly which fwn where announcements in?
--
peace out.
tc,hago.
g
.
****
in a free world without fences, who needs gates.
**
help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today.
**
to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it.
to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it.
**
learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html
'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/
****
11:39 a.m.
On Thursday 03 June 2010, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 09:14 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote:
> Hope nobody Minds.
Since you don't explain why you're doing this, we can only speculate. Or
are we to expect reposts of every issue of FWN from the announce list? I
for one would certainly mind that.
poc
I OTOH thought maybe it was a way to head off some miss-understandings that
have recently plagued this list. Now at least no one can claim they didn't
see it.
'twas a bit lengthy though.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too
dark to read.
11:23 a.m.
How many of you are subscribed to announce-list?
The web redesign was in FWN multiple times and if FWN was sent to
announce-list I really don't get all the harping about how people didn't
know about it...
~m
I knew of it, but had not subscribed. seeing it has this content, i will
subscribe to it now.
thx for illuminating the newsletter's availability.
--
Jack Craig
Software Engineer
831.461.7100 x120
www.extraview.com
11:16 a.m.
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 11:41 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 16:19 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote:
> On 03/06/10 16:12, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 09:14 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote:
> >> Hope nobody Minds.
> >
> > Since you don't explain why you're doing this, we can only speculate.
>
> All the past week or so about "we didn't know"
Some us who have already seen the info, because we're subscribed to the
Announce list, are wondering why we're seeing the entire thing posted
again with no comment. To avoid encouraging another interminable thread,
I'll leave it at that.
How many of you are subscribed to announce-list?
The web redesign was in FWN multiple times and if FWN was sent to
announce-list I really don't get all the harping about how people didn't
know about it...
~m
11:11 a.m.
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 16:19 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote:
On 03/06/10 16:12, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 09:14 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote:
>> Hope nobody Minds.
>
> Since you don't explain why you're doing this, we can only speculate.
All the past week or so about "we didn't know"
Some us who have already seen the info, because we're subscribed to the
Announce list, are wondering why we're seeing the entire thing posted
again with no comment. To avoid encouraging another interminable thread,
I'll leave it at that.
poc
10:19 a.m.
On 03/06/10 16:12, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 09:14 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote:
> Hope nobody Minds.
Since you don't explain why you're doing this, we can only speculate.
All the past week or so about "we didn't know"
Or
are we to expect reposts of every issue of FWN from the announce
list? I
for one would certainly mind that.
poc
G is going to snip where appropriate.
But it does lead me to believe, it can be a
"lose lose" trying to get info to people.
--
Regards,
Frank Murphy
UTF_8 Encoded
Friend of Fedora
8:28 a.m.
Frank Murphy wrote:
<snip>
I'll let you do it then?,
as your shears may be better than mine.
lol.
more satirical? more cynical?
--
peace out.
tc,hago.
g
.
****
in a free world without fences, who needs gates.
**
help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today.
**
to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it.
to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it.
**
learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html
'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/
****
3:59 a.m.
On 03/06/10 09:44, g wrote:
Frank Murphy wrote:
> Hope nobody Minds.
>
> Frank
hi frank,
not at all.
i get fwn, too.
i was going to forward it also.
but i thought about snipping it down to what might be pertinent to recent
events. :D
I'll let you do it then?,
as your shears may be better than mine.
--
Regards,
Frank Murphy
UTF_8 Encoded
Friend of Fedora
3:44 a.m.
Frank Murphy wrote:
Hope nobody Minds.
Frank
hi frank,
not at all.
i get fwn, too.
i was going to forward it also.
but i thought about snipping it down to what might be pertinent to recent
events. :D
such as;
Subject: Fedora Weekly News 228
<snip>
o 1.5 Artwork + 1.5.1 Design Team Release Meetings + 1.5.2 Fedora
Design
Team at Libre Graphics Meeting
<snip>
-- Artwork --
In this section, we cover the Fedora Design Team[1].
Contributing Writer: Nicu Buculei
1. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork
--- Design Team Release Meetings ---
Máirín Duffy proposed[1] organizing regular IRC meetings of the Fedora
Design Team "I was wondering if we could revisit this and consider weekly
or bi-weekly meetings? We could simply check in with each other, talk about
what projects we've been working on, and maybe go through open ticket items
in our trac queue" and as the team agreed, the first edition happened[2]
and touched the following topics[3]: F14 artwork schedule, Fedora design
team at LGM, design collaboration tools, emea tshirts.
1.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2010-May/002503.html
2.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2010-June/002560.html
3.
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-design/2010-06-01/fedora-design.2...
--- Fedora Design Team at Libre Graphics Meeting ---
The 2010 edition of the Libre Graphics Meeting conference[1] took place in
Brussels and a team from the Fedora Design Team, formed by Martin Sourada,
Papadeas Pierros and Nicu Buculei attended. Nicu posted a summary[2] of the
blog posts from the event, along with a link to a video of the presentation
delivered by the team.
1. http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/ 2.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2010-June/002551.html
tho it really does not look like anything all that important.
--
peace out.
tc,hago.
g
.
****
in a free world without fences, who needs gates.
**
help microsoft stamp out piracy - give linux to a friend today.
**
to mess up a linux box, you need to work at it.
to mess up an ms windows box, you just need to *look* at it.
**
learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition' http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html
'The Linux Documentation Project' http://www.tldp.org/
'LDP HOWTO-index' http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/index.html
'HowtoForge' http://howtoforge.com/
****
4:11 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
dexter wrote:
2010/6/4 Máirín Duffy <duffy fedoraproject.org>:
> On Thu, 2010-06-03 at 16:56 -0700, Craig White wrote:
>> George - I think that you are very offensive towards people who
>> volunteer their time. It's easy to understand why Fedora
>> contributors don't actually want to participate on the user lists
>> and get abused by unappreciative, sarcastic and combative users.
>
> How do we fix this?
>
> - moderation?
> - a code of conduct?
> - ?
I remember list police being assigned when the list name last
changed they seem to be mia.
There are a number of active list admins here, myself included. And
while in Mailman parlance, we all tend to the moderation queue, that
does not mean the same thing as moderation of posts in the context you
quote from Máirín.
Other lists, like the devel list do have some light moderation applied
at times, by marking certain threads as closed and preventing news
posts from being sent to the list in that thread. That's certainly
possibly to do here as well, but it's sure to annoy at least as many
people as it makes happy.
> I've found some of the behavior of a few on this list to be
quite
> embarrassing. To me, it seems an alien island in the middle of the
> Fedora community that I know to be a genuinely warm, friendly, and
> welcoming place.
As you say its a few folk, nothing a moderator with authority cant
handle, failing that you quote yourself an example of the list
policing itself.
In the many years I have been on mailing lists, only a few that were
heavily moderated were well used and productive, IMO. Most of the
good lists I have been subscribed to were that way because the members
of the list did a good job of staying on topic and leading by example.
I would love to see more of the latter here. One example is to simply
not fuel the flames of long threads of doom. (He says, violating the
sentence as he types it...)
If there are egregious examples of people getting out of hand, one way
to handle it without escalting to the full list is to mail the list
admins directly, users-owner(a)lists.fedoraproject.org in this case. If
warranted, any list admin can place a member on moderation or warn
them that if they don't act more respectfully they will be moderated.
That's just my opinion though. I could be wrong.
--
Todd OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of
which I disapprove.
-- Ashleigh Brilliant
2:48 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:28:20 +0100, Jerry Feldman <gaf(a)blu.org> wrote:
On 06/03/2010 11:11 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> How do we fix this?
> - moderation?
> - a code of conduct?
> - ?
>
> I've found some of the behavior of a few on this list to be quite
> embarrassing. To me, it seems an alien island in the middle of the
> Fedora community that I know to be a genuinely warm, friendly, and
> welcoming place.
>
> Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior? They are directed
> towards this list right now via a number of different pointers. My team
> is planning to redesign the Fedora website for Fedora 14, and I'm not
> sure we can in good conscience continue to point new users to this list
> [1].
>
> Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve this situation? We've had a
> small few but notable trolls in the past 6 years on the Fedora
> art/design lists, and the one solution that seemed to work best was
> placing badly-behaving folks on moderation for a few weeks. I don't know
> if that would be the appropriate solution here, though. For example, do
> we have anyone willing to take on the responsibility of moderating?
>
I think that we should welcome new users, and at the same time, rather
than chastising them because they top post or hijack threads, send them
an email offline politely mentioning their break of protocol. Maybe we
should email them a small subset of the FAQs. We want people to join the
Fedora community not be driven from it. We should always remember my
80-20 rule that 20% of everyone is a jerk. There are going to be jerks
on every list, and there are going to be good citizens who occasionally
behave as a jerk. The bottom line is that many come to this list for
help, and we have a great community of people who are able to give good
technical help.
One problem with the off-list email, who sends it? This was tried on a
list I was on years ago and resulted in everybody sending an email to the
miscreant. I think just politely pointing out the misdeed and then
answering the query is the best way.
--
Steve
1:28 p.m.
New subject: Improving the list climate [was Re: Fwd: Fedora Weekly News 228]
On 06/03/2010 11:11 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
How do we fix this?
- moderation?
- a code of conduct?
- ?
I've found some of the behavior of a few on this list to be quite
embarrassing. To me, it seems an alien island in the middle of the
Fedora community that I know to be a genuinely warm, friendly, and
welcoming place.
Do we want new users to witness this kind of behavior? They are directed
towards this list right now via a number of different pointers. My team
is planning to redesign the Fedora website for Fedora 14, and I'm not
sure we can in good conscience continue to point new users to this list
[1].
Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve this situation? We've had a
small few but notable trolls in the past 6 years on the Fedora
art/design lists, and the one solution that seemed to work best was
placing badly-behaving folks on moderation for a few weeks. I don't know
if that would be the appropriate solution here, though. For example, do
we have anyone willing to take on the responsibility of moderating?
I think that we should welcome new users, and at the same time, rather
than chastising them because they top post or hijack threads, send them
an email offline politely mentioning their break of protocol. Maybe we
should email them a small subset of the FAQs. We want people to join the
Fedora community not be driven from it. We should always remember my
80-20 rule that 20% of everyone is a jerk. There are going to be jerks
on every list, and there are going to be good citizens who occasionally
behave as a jerk. The bottom line is that many come to this list for
help, and we have a great community of people who are able to give good
technical help.
--
Jerry Feldman<gaf(a)blu.org>
Boston Linux and Unix
PGP key id: 537C5846
PGP Key fingerprint: 3D1B 8377 A3C0 A5F2 ECBB CA3B 4607 4319 537C 5846
5135
days inactive
5137
days old
54 comments
21 participants
participants (21)
-
Alan Evans -
Antonio Olivares -
Craig White -
dexter -
Ed Greshko -
Frank Murphy -
g -
Gene Heskett -
jack craig -
Jerry Feldman -
Kwan Lowe -
Michael Schwendt -
Michal -
Mike Fedyk -
Máirín Duffy -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Suvayu Ali -
Tim -
Todd Zullinger -
Tom H -
Yorvyk