4 a.m.
Hi guys,
Just wanted to share what a friend of mine has just
experienced, which just adds & matches my experience - you
can take it as warning in a way, if you too jumped on that
bandwagon of (fake) Lenovo euphoria towards support, in
generic terms, for Linux by the company - which is BAD
across the board.
I'm experiencing sleep/resume issue with my Lenovo two
laptops, same problem my friend sees, only he did file a
support request to Lenovo.
So if you still have any hopes, then have no doubts, here is
Lenovo/IBM's replay:
"..Linux operating systems are out of our scope, as we
support only Windows.
Please contact Ubuntu support to resolve the problem.."
In that reply you will find an insult added to the injury if
you read closely - IBM who does (some)support for Lenovo
who, not that very but still recently purchased RedHat.
My next laptop purchase I'll make extra effort to find some
of those smaller manufacturer who hopefully are genuine
Linux supporters, might as well give them a chance.
best wishes, L.
9:03 a.m.
On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:00:56AM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
So if you still have any hopes, then have no doubts, here is
Lenovo/IBM's replay:
"..Linux operating systems are out of our scope, as we support only
Windows.
Please contact Ubuntu support to resolve the problem.."
I can't speak for Lenovo, but I do have a question: was this about a laptop
sold with Fedora Workstation preinstalled? Lenovo _does_ have support for
Linux (and Fedora Workstation in specific) on those models, but does not
provide official support for Linux on the models which they do not sell that
way.
This doesn't seem like a joke to me -- it seems pretty reasonable, really.
I've seen firsthand the work that it takes to actually get a laptop to the
point where Lenovo feels comfortable calling it supported, and it is not at
all trivial.
If you got this response in attempting to get support on a laptop sold as
having Fedora Linux, please give me more details (off-list, if you like) and
I will escalate with my Lenovo contacts, who will certainly want to know
that this is happening.
If it _is_ an unsupported laptop, you may still get _informal_ support from
Lenovo at their Linux Operating Systems > Fedora forum at
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Fedora/bd-p/lx04_en. Actual technical people
who know what they're talking about read and reply there. (But, again, since
it's not official, it's on a best-effort basis so coming in with anger
probably won't get you good results.)
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
12:48 p.m.
On 03/04/2021 15:03, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:00:56AM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
> So if you still have any hopes, then have no doubts, here is
> Lenovo/IBM's replay:
>
> "..Linux operating systems are out of our scope, as we support only
> Windows.
> Please contact Ubuntu support to resolve the problem.."
I can't speak for Lenovo, but I do have a question: was this about a laptop
sold with Fedora Workstation preinstalled? Lenovo _does_ have support for
Linux (and Fedora Workstation in specific) on those models, but does not
provide official support for Linux on the models which they do not sell that
way.
This doesn't seem like a joke to me -- it seems pretty reasonable, really.
I've seen firsthand the work that it takes to actually get a laptop to the
point where Lenovo feels comfortable calling it supported, and it is not at
all trivial.
If you got this response in attempting to get support on a laptop sold as
having Fedora Linux, please give me more details (off-list, if you like) and
I will escalate with my Lenovo contacts, who will certainly want to know
that this is happening.
If it _is_ an unsupported laptop, you may still get _informal_ support from
Lenovo at their Linux Operating Systems > Fedora forum at
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Fedora/bd-p/lx04_en. Actual technical people
who know what they're talking about read and reply there. (But, again, since
it's not official, it's on a best-effort basis so coming in with anger
probably won't get you good results.)
Nowhere I suggested that anything about OS/hardware is
trivial nor I would expect anybody who has basic knowledge
about computers, to think this is trivial.
Officially supported or not does not matter. Point I was
making, I make is - do not succumb to that almost euphoric
state which some expressed at the news given publicly by
Lenovo about them beginning to support Linux, because they
decided to sell couple of models in US with Linux.
I've seen, I think many remember too, with Dell, them too a
few years ago announced they would start to offer Ubuntu and
we know how it ended, I think with one single model sold
with Ubuntu.
These are, both Dell & Lenovo but others, multi-billion
dollar companies and if one friendly advise I may share
here, it will be - no need to make excuses for them nor
explain them.
And perhaps, if a secondary point was also hidden in my
message - research other, smaller HW vendors if they might
offer Linux more serious approach, I know I will, that's all.
cheer, L
1:55 p.m.
On 4/3/21 10:48 AM, lejeczek via users wrote:
I've seen, I think many remember too, with Dell, them too a few years
ago announced they would start to offer Ubuntu and we know how it
ended, I think with one single model sold with Ubuntu.
There are currently at least six laptop models and at least six
workstations sold with GNU/Linux OS:
https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystems
Small numbers compared to their enormous portfolio, but more than enough
for my tastes.
4:27 p.m.
On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 06:48:53PM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
Nowhere I suggested that anything about OS/hardware is trivial nor I
would expect anybody who has basic knowledge about computers, to
think this is trivial.
Well, you said "is a joke". I do not think it is a joke.
Officially supported or not does not matter. Point I was making, I
make is - do not succumb to that almost euphoric state which some
expressed at the news given publicly by Lenovo about them beginning
to support Linux, because they decided to sell couple of models in
US with Linux.
This _really_ is planned to be global. It's just hard to do a global
roll-out. As I understand it, the team learned a lot from the first attempt
and that should get better in the future.
I do agree that it isn't helpful to have too high of expectations. A
"euphoric state" definitely seems too much -- as does expecting support for
models they haven't said are supported.
And perhaps, if a secondary point was also hidden in my message -
research other, smaller HW vendors if they might offer Linux more
serious approach, I know I will, that's all.
Yes, that's cool too.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
1:57 p.m.
On 4/3/21 2:00 AM, lejeczek via users wrote:
I'm experiencing sleep/resume issue with my Lenovo two laptops,
same
problem my friend sees, only he did file a support request to Lenovo.
Which models? And what is the problem?
A friend of mine just purchased a Thinkpad Nano, and it's consuming more
power than expected when suspended. Seems to not be reaching PC10
state. He has an open case with Lenovo, and they're actively
troubleshooting that issue. It's not resolved yet, but they're not
brushing him off.
3:04 a.m.
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 at 10:01, lejeczek via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
if you too jumped on that bandwagon of (fake) Lenovo euphoria towards
support, in
generic terms, for Linux by the company - which is BAD across the board.
That's not what I've experienced: I've been working with Lenovo for
about 2 years now, with ThinkStation, ThinkCenter and ThinkPad teams
(including sub-teams of ME, BIOS, etc), and about a dozen ODMs and
IHVs with my firmware work on the LVFS and fwupd. Although Lenovo had
some catching up to do, they now ship about as much firmware on the
LVFS (in terms of absolute downloads, and also in terms of models
supported) as Dell. In the last 18 months I've seen a Lenovo Linux
team grow from almost nothing to having almost daily contact with a
Senior Linux Developer at Lenovo. They are increasing the number of
models (and type of hardware) with firmware on the LVFS and I'll have
some more announcements about all that when it's all public.
As I understand it, Lenovo only formally "supports Fedora" on models
actually sold with Fedora preinstalled (which is fair enough in my
opinion). At least unofficially I know there are a *huge* number of
other models that are being tested with Fedora and RHEL, and with
firmware updates available on the LVFS. I've been given access to
their IHVs and ODMs supplying devices and silicon to them, and the
support of Linux by Lenovo has contributed a huge amount to the
success of the LVFS.
I think calling Lenovo a "joke" considering how much progress they've
made in the last 18 months is a huge mischaracterization. I buy Lenovo
and I've been Linux-exclusive for about the last 15 years.
Richard.
5:55 a.m.
On 04/04/2021 09:04, Richard Hughes wrote:
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 at 10:01, lejeczek via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> if you too jumped on that bandwagon of (fake) Lenovo euphoria towards support, in
> generic terms, for Linux by the company - which is BAD across the board.
That's not what I've experienced: I've been working with Lenovo for
about 2 years now, with ThinkStation, ThinkCenter and ThinkPad teams
(including sub-teams of ME, BIOS, etc), and about a dozen ODMs and
IHVs with my firmware work on the LVFS and fwupd. Although Lenovo had
some catching up to do, they now ship about as much firmware on the
LVFS (in terms of absolute downloads, and also in terms of models
supported) as Dell. In the last 18 months I've seen a Lenovo Linux
team grow from almost nothing to having almost daily contact with a
Senior Linux Developer at Lenovo. They are increasing the number of
models (and type of hardware) with firmware on the LVFS and I'll have
some more announcements about all that when it's all public.
As I understand it, Lenovo only formally "supports Fedora" on models
actually sold with Fedora preinstalled (which is fair enough in my
opinion). At least unofficially I know there are a *huge* number of
other models that are being tested with Fedora and RHEL, and with
firmware updates available on the LVFS. I've been given access to
their IHVs and ODMs supplying devices and silicon to them, and the
support of Linux by Lenovo has contributed a huge amount to the
success of the LVFS.
I think calling Lenovo a "joke" considering how much progress they've
made in the last 18 months is a huge mischaracterization. I buy Lenovo
and I've been Linux-exclusive for about the last 15 years.
Richard.
What LVFS is to Linux consumers and proponents and what you
Richard and others do with/for it - well, I wish not to
sound boring and repetitive but will say anyway - is great!
However, I do not think your experience, for obvious
reasons, should compare to experience of the rest of us
regular folk.
The quote I used is a verbatim quote (I only do not want to
include email addresses and names, those should remain
private in my opinion).
There, in Lenovo(IBM) replay is no talk about official "VS
non-official", about "Fedora VS Ubuntu", it as short(really
that short) and concrete as you can read it.
Do anybody think that if I was to ask my friend or do it
myself and talk to Lenovo but replace "Ubuntu" with "Fedora"
their repose would be entirely different or.... different at
all? I might give a try I think.
What I think is happening recently with Leonovo, if anything
is rather a diversion from
Lenovo-HW(BIOS)-close-Linux-Integration and please, do not
get me wrong, I say there most certainly is, at Lenovo, a
small bunch of people who work hard with
serious-Linux-approach goal in mind but that might be
worth... well a penny, at most?
When the goals at the company(top) level are nowhere near
Linux, perhaps are in a parallel universe with Linux absent
completely, then such a bunch of devotees plus you, plus me,
plus us... will not be ever enough. Your own individual
experience will not change it.
(I'll try to stress that again, as it seems we miss that
secondary point of mine - IBM which is now Redhat, that
short, concrete replay came from!)
na zdrowie (since it's Sun), L.
10:31 a.m.
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 11:55:11AM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
There, in Lenovo(IBM) replay is no talk about official "VS
non-official", about "Fedora VS Ubuntu", it as short(really that
short) and concrete as you can read it.
I think you have a misconception there. Lenovo is not (and never was) IBM.
Lenovo previously made laptops and desktops for IBM under contract, and in
2005 bought out that business. (In 2014, they bought the Intel-based server
business too.)
Additionally, while IBM owns Red Hat, it's operated as a separate business.
So there really are no direct connections. (Basically, IBM doesn't come into
it at all.) Additionally, Red Hat does not support Fedora-based systems; the
support you get is community based.
Do anybody think that if I was to ask my friend or do it myself and
talk to Lenovo but replace "Ubuntu" with "Fedora" their repose would
be entirely different or.... different at all? I might give a try I
think.
Well, again, it depends who you are talking to and what the system in
question is. If it's a laptop that was bought with Fedora Linux on it and
you got that response, like I said, let me know and I'll raise that as an
alarm. I do think that they should at least have said that they only support
certain models and configurations ... but, also, it's a big company and I
wouldn't be shocked to learn that not every front-line tech in the world has
the messaging right.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
12:32 p.m.
On 04/04/2021 16:31, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 11:55:11AM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
> There, in Lenovo(IBM) replay is no talk about official "VS
> non-official", about "Fedora VS Ubuntu", it as short(really that
> short) and concrete as you can read it.
I think you have a misconception there. Lenovo is not (and never was) IBM.
Lenovo previously made laptops and desktops for IBM under contract, and in
2005 bought out that business. (In 2014, they bought the Intel-based server
business too.)
Gee man, what is wrong with you?
I really have to spell it out for you - tech support case
reported to Lenovo with the subject being, yes a laptop, was
acted upon by and replied from IBM (here in UK, perhaps the
rest of the Europe), thus lease stop lecturing about how it
was, history lessons not required.
Additionally, while IBM owns Red Hat, it's operated as a separate
business.
So there really are no direct connections. (Basically, IBM doesn't come into
it at all.) Additionally, Red Hat does not support Fedora-based systems; the
support you get is community based.
and the eagerness to be their public defense, gee.. are you
on a payroll of any these entities? If yes then I get it,
fair enough, but if not then what would you bother...
(rhetorical)
> Do anybody think that if I was to ask my friend or do it myself
and
> talk to Lenovo but replace "Ubuntu" with "Fedora" their repose
would
> be entirely different or.... different at all? I might give a try I
> think.
Well, again, it depends who you are talking to and what the system in
question is. If it's a laptop that was bought with Fedora Linux on it and
you got that response, like I said, let me know and I'll raise that as an
alarm. I do think that they should at least have said that they only support
certain models and configurations ... but, also, it's a big company and I
wouldn't be shocked to learn that not every front-line tech in the world has
the messaging right.
Thanks for the offer but you should not be bothered.
Moreover, it never crossed my mind that me sharing my
experience and expressing my opinion would be taken as a
call for help. Again, I thank you but it's between
Lenovo(others officially involved) and the rest of us
regular customers.
2:41 p.m.
On 4/4/21 10:32 AM, lejeczek via users wrote:
Moreover, it never crossed my mind that me sharing my experience and
expressing my opinion would be taken as a call for help.
This is, specifically, a support forum. It is a place to ask for help.
Every message is sent to "Community support for Fedora users".
I don't think your thread is helpful. We don't know what model of
system you have, which might have power management issues. We don't
know which group told you they don't support Linux systems. Matthew
offered to try to help improve support responses, and you've blown him off.
If you're not interested in solving the problem, then you're just
ranting, and that's off-topic for this list.
3:59 a.m.
On 04/04/2021 20:41, Gordon Messmer wrote:
On 4/4/21 10:32 AM, lejeczek via users wrote:
> Moreover, it never crossed my mind that me sharing my
> experience and expressing my opinion would be taken as a
> call for help.
This is, specifically, a support forum. It is a place to
ask for help. Every message is sent to "Community support
for Fedora users".
I don't think your thread is helpful. We don't know what
model of system you have, which might have power
management issues. We don't know which group told you
they don't support Linux systems. Matthew offered to try
to help improve support responses, and you've blown him off.
If you're not interested in solving the problem, then
you're just ranting, and that's off-topic for this list.
From the first few lines of my first message it was clear I
made it a sharing-experience-advice and not a search for
help, which help when Matthew offered I reasoned why him nor
anybody(including employees) here I'd not dare to bother about.
I do not go for phrases such as 'to blow off'. I'm not
unhappy that way and I think it's evident who is ranting here.
But never mind that all, expressing my option on that matter
I'm finished with. We all have enough actual problems to
resolve and precious energy should go there rather than
towards creation of the problems for which there are no
resolutions.
thanks, L
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3:55 p.m.
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 06:32:00PM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
and the eagerness to be their public defense, gee.. are you on a
payroll of any these entities? If yes then I get it, fair enough,
but if not then what would you bother... (rhetorical)
I am on the payroll of Red Hat. They pay me to work on Fedora, and as part
of that, I worked with (and continue to work with!) Lenovo in their effort
to provide supported systems running Fedora Linux.
But I've been on this mailing list trying to help Fedora users with various
issues for some time before that. That's the whole idea -- working together
to try to make things better, and that's why I bother.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
2:09 a.m.
On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 23:44:59 +0200
Ranjan Maitra <maitra(a)email.com> wrote:
Matthew,
And to you and everybody else on this list, I (and I am sure,
countless others) are very grateful! You answer even off-topic
questions if you can. Thanks again!
Ranjan
Plus One!
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2021 at 3:55 PM
From: "Matthew Miller" <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
To: "lejeczek via users" <users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org>
Subject: Re: Lenovo is a JOKE (IBM too)
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 06:32:00PM +0100, lejeczek via users wrote:
> and the eagerness to be their public defense, gee.. are you on a
> payroll of any these entities? If yes then I get it, fair enough,
> but if not then what would you bother... (rhetorical)
I am on the payroll of Red Hat. They pay me to work on Fedora, and as
part of that, I worked with (and continue to work with!) Lenovo in
their effort to provide supported systems running Fedora Linux.
But I've been on this mailing list trying to help Fedora users with
various issues for some time before that. That's the whole idea --
working together to try to make things better, and that's why I
bother.
8:13 a.m.
New subject: Lenovo reputation.
Richard: (and/or anyone else with strong feelings about Lenovo)
I have a question regarding your experience with Lenovo.
I have always had a problem with the "Superfish" incident that they
had a few years ago. Of course that particular invasive spyware was
Windows-only, but what happens if they decide to target Linux users
with similar malicious software.
In other words, do you trust them to have reformed in this regard, and why?
Thanks,
--murph
On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 4:05 AM Richard Hughes <hughsient(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think calling Lenovo a "joke" considering how much progress they've
> made in the last 18 months is a huge mischaracterization. I buy Lenovo
> and I've been Linux-exclusive for about the last 15 years.
>
10:36 a.m.
New subject: Lenovo reputation.
On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 09:13:34AM -0400, murph nj wrote:
Richard: (and/or anyone else with strong feelings about Lenovo)
I have a question regarding your experience with Lenovo.
I have always had a problem with the "Superfish" incident that they
had a few years ago. Of course that particular invasive spyware was
Windows-only, but what happens if they decide to target Linux users
with similar malicious software.
In other words, do you trust them to have reformed in this regard, and why?
I trust the people we're working with, for three reasons:
1. They're entirely different people in a different group; Lenovo is a big
company with a complex organization. The Superfish thing happened in the
"Lenovo Notebook" line, which is an entirely different business from the
Think* systems.
2. If you don't trust people, you might still follow the money, and in this
case, the motivation is coming from people asking for Fedora Linux as a
preinstall option. That's a very different financial motivation than what
led to preinstalling terrible adware on a budget consumer Windows
notebook.
3. The team has been very clear that they want no such thing, and that they
want to provide a completely stock out-of-the-box Fedora Workstation
system. This is, in fact, the only thing that is allowed by our trademark
rules; if they wanted to put something else in there, they'd have to
call it something else.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
1:42 p.m.
New subject: Lenovo reputation.
I have a Lenovo Laptop which I just added a NVME M.2 500GB storage unit into. I have over
the years worked on many different Laptops and I can tell you that this unit is very well
designed and built. I use F33 on it and with the latest updates works fine with Suspend
and I couldn't be more pleased😄
Robert
Get BlueMail for Android
On 4 Apr 2021, 06:14, at 06:14, murph nj <murphnj+fedora(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Richard: (and/or anyone else with strong feelings about Lenovo)
I have a question regarding your experience with Lenovo.
I have always had a problem with the "Superfish" incident that they
had a few years ago. Of course that particular invasive spyware was
Windows-only, but what happens if they decide to target Linux users
with similar malicious software.
In other words, do you trust them to have reformed in this regard, and
why?
Thanks,
--murph
On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 4:05 AM Richard Hughes <hughsient(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I think calling Lenovo a "joke" considering how much progress they've
> made in the last 18 months is a huge mischaracterization. I buy
Lenovo
> and I've been Linux-exclusive for about the last 15 years.
>
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8:21 a.m.
To me. Any company shipping Linux on their hardware is far from being a
joke.
EGO II
On Sun, Apr 4, 2021, 4:05 AM Richard Hughes <hughsient(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 at 10:01, lejeczek via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> if you too jumped on that bandwagon of (fake) Lenovo euphoria towards
support, in
> generic terms, for Linux by the company - which is BAD across the board.
That's not what I've experienced: I've been working with Lenovo for
about 2 years now, with ThinkStation, ThinkCenter and ThinkPad teams
(including sub-teams of ME, BIOS, etc), and about a dozen ODMs and
IHVs with my firmware work on the LVFS and fwupd. Although Lenovo had
some catching up to do, they now ship about as much firmware on the
LVFS (in terms of absolute downloads, and also in terms of models
supported) as Dell. In the last 18 months I've seen a Lenovo Linux
team grow from almost nothing to having almost daily contact with a
Senior Linux Developer at Lenovo. They are increasing the number of
models (and type of hardware) with firmware on the LVFS and I'll have
some more announcements about all that when it's all public.
As I understand it, Lenovo only formally "supports Fedora" on models
actually sold with Fedora preinstalled (which is fair enough in my
opinion). At least unofficially I know there are a *huge* number of
other models that are being tested with Fedora and RHEL, and with
firmware updates available on the LVFS. I've been given access to
their IHVs and ODMs supplying devices and silicon to them, and the
support of Linux by Lenovo has contributed a huge amount to the
success of the LVFS.
I think calling Lenovo a "joke" considering how much progress they've
made in the last 18 months is a huge mischaracterization. I buy Lenovo
and I've been Linux-exclusive for about the last 15 years.
Richard.
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12:47 p.m.
On Sat., 3 Apr. 2021, 06:01 lejeczek via users, <
users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
I'm experiencing sleep/resume issue with my Lenovo two
laptops, same problem my friend sees, only he did file a
support request to Lenovo.
Wasn't it discussed right on this list a few days ago, on a separate thread
also started by you?
It seems to me the issue is still being worked on.
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/1230#note_824935
It doesn't seem to be specific to Lenovo or Fedora either, but a result of
the "standards" pushed by Microsoft for Win10 which deprecate older
standards... ("Modern Standby")
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experienc...
FC
1117
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19 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
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Eddie O'Connor -
Fernando Cassia -
Fred -
Gordon Messmer -
lejeczek -
Matthew Miller -
murph nj -
Ranjan Maitra -
Richard Hughes -
Robert Weir