10:50 a.m.
I thought I'd start a thread on first thoughts about KDE4.2...
It feels faster.
I don't think it looks as nice as KDE 4.1.x did. I liked the black
background on the panel better than the current panel color scheme. That
is probably being picky, but it is what I think. Maybe the panel
background color could be set in the future ?
I find the file icon "icon bars" that appear on an icon when you
holdover to be too big now. I thought they were better in KDE 4.1.4.
I love the LCDWeather widget. I have 2 of them in my lower panel. I
wish that they displayed the name of the location they are indicating
for. For example, it should say "Las Vegas" when you open it up. I
guess the designers didn't anticipate people having more than one
weather widget operating once ?
Evolution seems to run faster. I have really large email folders.
My lower, centered panel now retains its width setting and doesn't move
the icons around between sessions ! Its nice this problem is finally
fixed.
It doesn't seem possible to move icons within a panel. I'm hoping this
feature appears in the near future so that I can group icons they way I
like them.
Overall, it looks pretty good.
Kudos to the KDE team for their efforts.
LG
5:08 a.m.
It doesn't seem possible to move icons within a panel. I'm hoping this
feature appears in the near future so that I can group icons they way I
like them.
That would be really good if you can move the widgets around as you like.
KDE 4.2 has surpassed all others in looks and general usability. I really
seem to like it.
--
Rangeen Basu Roy Chowdhury
sherry151(a)gmail.com
!!!Windows is "micro"-soft[ware]..I like bigger things!!!
7:42 a.m.
New subject: Black vs. blue panel (was: Re: First thoughts on KDE4.2...)
On Monday 16 February 2009 11:34:47 Kevin Kofler wrote:
Anne Wilson wrote:
> I don't suppose you know one with a transparent panel? I'm using
'naked'
> (or maybe 'bare naked'? - since I changed some settings it just shows as
> 'customized') which looks good for widgets etc., but still leaves me with
> a black panel.
Try Oxyglass. Though, no matter what the theme, translucency will only work
with desktop effects enabled.
Effects is enabled - just not using most. Oxyglass gives grey handles to
widgets, semi-transparent, and a grey-gradient panel. Naked and Bare Naked
give totally transparent handles but a flat black panel.
I have OpenGL rendering. I wonder if that's affecting things? Maybe I should
try the alternative.
Anne
2:06 a.m.
New subject: Black vs. blue panel (was: Re: First thoughts on KDE4.2...)
On Monday 16 February 2009 02:52:21 Kevin Kofler wrote:
Linuxguy123 wrote:
> I don't think it looks as nice as KDE 4.1.x did. I liked the black
> background on the panel better than the current panel color scheme. That
> is probably being picky, but it is what I think. Maybe the panel
> background color could be set in the future ?
Try the Nitro theme, which is available through the "new themes..." button
(it's on kde-look.org). It's a version of the KDE 4.2 Oxygen Plasma theme
with a black panel.
I don't suppose you know one with a transparent panel? I'm using
'naked' (or
maybe 'bare naked'? - since I changed some settings it just shows as
'customized') which looks good for widgets etc., but still leaves me with a
black panel.
Anne
3:11 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On Sunday 15 February 2009 19:55:38 Kevin Kofler wrote:
Anne Wilson wrote:
> What I was objecting to was that one day, after an update, I suddenly
> found that I was sending html mail. The default now appears to be to
> have html enabled for sending. I consider that very bad practice. To
> have the capability so that people can switch it on if they desire is
> fine, but to have html as the default is not.
Bug filed? I think we should be overriding that in kde-settings.
No, I didn't file that one. Can someone who has installed recently please
check whether html is enabled by default? Just to make sure that nothing has
changed. If it is still so, I'll file the report.
Anne
1:56 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Tim wrote:
I'd far rather get the occasional HTML mail, when it's
warranted, than
have someone attach some word processor document. I get unending grief
from them, but I can usually get something sensible out of HTML.
I like those companies which bounce all mails with .doc files attached. :-)
I wish that was more common.
Kevin Kofler
1:55 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Anne Wilson wrote:
What I was objecting to was that one day, after an update, I
suddenly
found that I was sending html mail. The default now appears to be to have
html enabled for sending. I consider that very bad practice. To have the
capability so that people can switch it on if they desire is fine, but to
have html as the default is not.
Bug filed? I think we should be overriding that in kde-settings.
Kevin Kofler
8:52 p.m.
New subject: Black vs. blue panel (was: Re: First thoughts on KDE4.2...)
Linuxguy123 wrote:
I don't think it looks as nice as KDE 4.1.x did. I liked the
black
background on the panel better than the current panel color scheme. That
is probably being picky, but it is what I think. Maybe the panel
background color could be set in the future ?
Try the Nitro theme, which is available through the "new themes..." button
(it's on kde-look.org). It's a version of the KDE 4.2 Oxygen Plasma theme
with a black panel.
Kevin Kofler
4:45 a.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On Saturday 14 February 2009 19:28:45 Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote:
Em Sáb 14 Fev 2009, Anne Wilson escreveu:
> On Saturday 14 February 2009 18:59:04 Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> > It's still considered a security risk, but you can flip a switch to
> > enable it. Any by switch I mean checkbox.
>
> Unfortunately, no. You have to flip a switch to disable it. That's
> what I object to.
Uh? Displaying HTML e-mails is disabled by default in KMail. You have to
explicitly enable this in the Security section of the configuration
dialog. This option is near the other one you have to check if you want
KMail automatically loads external references embedded in an HTML
message.
But I think the limitations about which the OP was referring to are the
ones when we want to send HTML e-mail, not to see received HTML mail.
The KMail composer is still limited when it comes to creating HTML
messages. But worst than that is the impossibility to forward HTML e-
mail retaining its original format, unless you forward it as an
attachment, but then you can't add your comments to the original
message.
For reading incoming HTML mail, KMail is ok.
What I was objecting to was that one day, after an update, I suddenly found
that I was sending html mail. The default now appears to be to have html
enabled for sending. I consider that very bad practice. To have the
capability so that people can switch it on if they desire is fine, but to have
html as the default is not.
To compound the issue, it isn't just that the update was a major one. Twice
since then it has been re-set to enabled after updates.
Anne
11:07 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 21:26 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Linuxguy123 wrote:
> I'm under the impression that the filtering and spam handling is better
> in Evolution. Am I wrong ?
>
> I have 7 email accounts for various purposes that get filtered into 45
> different mailboxes.
>
> And Evolution does a good job of managing my contacts.
>
> Is Kmail better than this ?
KMail is probably the most flexible GNU/Linux MUA when it comes to
filtering.
I'll concede that the support for Sieve (server-side filtering for IMAP)
is something I've wanted to see in Evo for a long time, but otherwise I
don't see that much difference. OTOH Evo is supposed to support very
general filter expressions written in Scheme, which is rather a moot
point as it appears to be completely undocumented.
poc
10:57 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 23:30 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> People who use Exchange don't have much of a choice as Kmail doesn't
> support it.
For now yes (unless the Exchange instance has IMAP access enabled), but that
may change soon.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OpenChange
Both Evolution and KMail (and KOrganizer too, I believe) are going to get
support for the native Exchange protocol (not the web interface which
Evolution currently uses).
Yes, this is currently available in experimental form for people who
want to compile Evo for themselves. It's due to MS finally releasing the
MAPI specs under a usable licence.
poc
10:55 p.m.
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 16:15 -0500, homburg(a)tips-Q.com wrote:
On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 12:20:46 -0600
Arthur Pemberton <pemboa(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It may be interesting to hear why you heathens choose
> Evolution over KMail
>
Food fight!!
My personal choice is claws-mail. Evo is a ponderous,
bloated hog. Claws-mail is much more flexible than KMail.
These things usually boil down to personal taste.
Indeed they do. Unfortunately Claws doesn't support the standard IMAP
message deletion model.
poc
7:05 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 15:50 -0500, Mail Lists wrote:
It is expected in the business world for those things not complex
enough to warrant a separate document but needing some structure which
can be easily passed along and edited.
I'd far rather get the occasional HTML mail, when it's warranted, than
have someone attach some word processor document. I get unending grief
from them, but I can usually get something sensible out of HTML.
Replying to them can be a right bastard though, on various different
mailers. Some mail client's quoting tricks are really stupid, and it
doesn't help that a lot of the original HTML was utter crap in the first
place. It's somewhat unusual for HTML mail to be sensibly created.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.12-78.2.8.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
6:38 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
enough - use what works for you ...
5:49 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Mail Lists wrote:
(1) we have to interract with _others_ in the world .. they are
not
using ascii art - I gave real examples, approving things, editing and
circulating structured information with others including tables, colors
etc ... who are using outlook, etc ... you cant seriously be in denial
of what happens in the real world.
So what? You reply in plain text. I systematically reply in plain text, no
matter what the format of the original message was. And if the original
message was in HTML only or if the text version was unreadable, I'll most
likely complain about that too. (And this also means I'll never read your
fancy formatting because chances are your client also sends out a text
version without it, which is what KMail displays by default for security
reasons. If there's no text version, KMail displays the HTML source code by
default (yuck!) and I have to click if I want to actually read something
intelligible, which I'm not likely to do unless the message is really
important. More likely it'll just end up deleted or marked as read, with or
without a reply complaining about the format.)
(2) why would anyone want to fiddle with ascii art which on each
reply
has to be hand reformatted by hand ... and simple text has less
information - such as bold red large letters to highlight .. or whatever
...
You can use ALL CAPS or *asterisks* or _underscores_ or /slashes/ or
even !exclamation marks! to highlight stuff, there's no need to use bold
red large letters (which are an annoyance, by the way).
!!! _*DON'T*_ USE BOLD RED LARGE LETTERS !!!
(3) not sure why those that dont need structured email, seem to
try
and stop those that do from using it .. i am not suggesting you stop
using text email. Telling us that text only is a viable replacement for
structured mail is, frankly, silly.
Text only can express a lot of things, and tends to be less annoying than
bold red huge crap.
(4) the place most of use it are not bandwidth nor disk space
constrained - internally high speed networks, or broadband - its just
not an issue - and by the way, another common suggestion to avoid
structured email is to use documents - which are way larger ...
I hate .doc attachments at least as much as HTML mail, they're a vector for
viruses, they may not open properly in Free Software etc.
Just use plain text!
Kevin Kofler
5:19 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On 02/14/2009 05:37 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
approval in the cell. R
"every mailer except kmail" is an incorrect generalization. I doubt you can
do that with Pine/Alpine or Mutt, unless you like to edit raw HTML. ;-)
Ha ha .. yes it was hyperbole - there are a few - other than claws i
cannot honestly think of any graphical ones however which don't handle
it ...
Anyway .. enough ... ;-)
5:15 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On 02/14/2009 05:34 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Mail Lists wrote:
That's what ASCII art is for.
HTML ASCII Art
Works Yes Yes
Wastes bandwidth Yes No
Where's the problem?
(1) we have to interract with _others_ in the world .. they are not
using ascii art - I gave real examples, approving things, editing and
circulating structured information with others including tables, colors
etc ... who are using outlook, etc ... you cant seriously be in denial
of what happens in the real world.
(2) why would anyone want to fiddle with ascii art which on each reply
has to be hand reformatted by hand ... and simple text has less
information - such as bold red large letters to highlight .. or whatever
...
(3) not sure why those that dont need structured email, seem to try
and stop those that do from using it .. i am not suggesting you stop
using text email. Telling us that text only is a viable replacement for
structured mail is, frankly, silly.
(4) the place most of use it are not bandwidth nor disk space
constrained - internally high speed networks, or broadband - its just
not an issue - and by the way, another common suggestion to avoid
structured email is to use documents - which are way larger ...
I am not saying there is not a place for text only mail - i am saying
there is a place for both - its the real world - move on .. I'm not
asking you to use it - I'm not even asking kmail to change -
just answering the question why kmail is not very useful in the
business world ... kmail has a place - since its functionality is
limited it cannot work where that functionality is needed ..
Glad you have no need for structured mail - I do. kmail is not
functional enough for those of that do .. which is fine .. it serves a
different need.
So we use evo, outlook, thunderbird etc.
gene
4:37 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Mail Lists wrote:
It was sending/replying that was a problem - especially if for
example
your boss sends you an embedded table and you need to reply and edit
without destroying the format, or if you get a table with a list of
things to approve - with every mailer except kmail, i just added my
approval in the cell. R
"every mailer except kmail" is an incorrect generalization. I doubt you can
do that with Pine/Alpine or Mutt, unless you like to edit raw HTML. ;-)
Kevin Kofler
4:30 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
People who use Exchange don't have much of a choice as Kmail
doesn't
support it.
For now yes (unless the Exchange instance has IMAP access enabled), but that
may change soon.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OpenChange
Both Evolution and KMail (and KOrganizer too, I believe) are going to get
support for the native Exchange protocol (not the web interface which
Evolution currently uses).
Kevin Kofler
2:50 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On 02/14/2009 03:29 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
HTML mail serves no useful purpose, just say "no"!
I'm surprised at you kevin ... structured mail has its place just like
simple text mail has its place ... this is not an either or thing.
It is expected in the business world for those things not complex
enough to warrant a separate document but needing some structure which
can be easily passed along and edited.
Simple truth, both are needed. And a mailer choosing not to support
it will simply not be used by those that need it - no big deal ... we go
elsewhere to find the right tools which is pretty much all other
mailers. I have used evo and thunderbird - each has its charms and issues.
2:29 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Mail Lists wrote:
I dropped kmail ages ago as the devs refused to move into the
modern
html world - which I need for business. I was advised by the developers
that I should use text mail for all purposes and the world was wrong -
and the devs knew what was best.
And they were right.
HTML mail serves no useful purpose, just say "no"!
That said, KMail does support basic HTML composing these days. But that
doesn't mean it's a good idea to use it.
Maybe they woke up .. other than that I used to kind of like kmail
...
great for mailing lists tho ... it also seemed to have stalled in its
development for a long long time .. maybe that changed too by now ..
That changed too. In 3.5.9 it got some useful features from the
kdepim-enterprise branch, and now in 4.2 it got a lot of UI improvements
from the enteprisee4 branch. The Kolab team (the folks behind those
enterprise branches) is actively working on kdepim.
Kevin Kofler
2:26 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Linuxguy123 wrote:
I'm under the impression that the filtering and spam handling is
better
in Evolution. Am I wrong ?
I have 7 email accounts for various purposes that get filtered into 45
different mailboxes.
And Evolution does a good job of managing my contacts.
Is Kmail better than this ?
KMail is probably the most flexible GNU/Linux MUA when it comes to
filtering.
Kevin Kofler
1:47 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On 02/14/2009 01:59 PM, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> g
It's still considered a security risk, but you can flip a switch to
enable it. Any by switch I mean checkbox.
It has largely supported displaying html for a long time.
It was sending/replying that was a problem - especially if for example
your boss sends you an embedded table and you need to reply and edit
without destroying the format, or if you get a table with a list of
things to approve - with every mailer except kmail, i just added my
approval in the cell. R
Replying to structured email and not destroying the format was
impossible or exceedingly painful and inefficient.
If it has improved in that regard wonderful news ..
1:28 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Em Sáb 14 Fev 2009, Anne Wilson escreveu:
On Saturday 14 February 2009 18:59:04 Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> It's still considered a security risk, but you can flip a switch to
> enable it. Any by switch I mean checkbox.
Unfortunately, no. You have to flip a switch to disable it. That's
what I object to.
Uh? Displaying HTML e-mails is disabled by default in KMail. You have to
explicitly enable this in the Security section of the configuration
dialog. This option is near the other one you have to check if you want
KMail automatically loads external references embedded in an HTML
message.
But I think the limitations about which the OP was referring to are the
ones when we want to send HTML e-mail, not to see received HTML mail.
The KMail composer is still limited when it comes to creating HTML
messages. But worst than that is the impossibility to forward HTML e-
mail retaining its original format, unless you forward it as an
attachment, but then you can't add your comments to the original
message.
For reading incoming HTML mail, KMail is ok.
[]'s
Marcelo
1:09 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On Saturday 14 February 2009 18:59:04 Arthur Pemberton wrote:
It's still considered a security risk, but you can flip a switch to
enable it. Any by switch I mean checkbox.
Unfortunately, no. You have to flip a switch to disable it. That's what I
object to.
Anne
1:04 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 12:40 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Linuxguy123
<linuxguy123(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 12:20 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> It may be interesting to hear why you heathens choose Evolution over
>> KMail
>
> I'm under the impression that the filtering and spam handling is better
> in Evolution. Am I wrong ?
No idea, I was kinda hoping that you guys had some reasons which could
lead to RFEs.
> I have 7 email accounts for various purposes that get filtered into 45
> different mailboxes.
Interesting
> And Evolution does a good job of managing my contacts.
>
> Is Kmail better than this ?
Its kinda hard to say. Seems like you tried Evo first and it was god
enough so you stuck with it.
Was wondering if there were simply several flaws you found in KMail
and so use Evo
That's my situation. I actually started using Kmail years ago, then
tried Evo and haven't gone back. From time to time I try the new
releases of Kmail to see what's changed. I always go back. One reason is
simply familiarity of course, but another important reason is that my
experience of IMAP under Kmail has been less than encouraging,
particularly the performance with very large folders. For example the
folder I use for this list, which I access on Gmail via IMAP from Evo
has nearly 37,000 messages in it (since I joined the list) because I
don't delete any. Evo seems to search the entire folder about as fast as
Gmail does, and supports more complex queries.
Evo is not without it's problems too, but I know them better :-) In fact
I've found the current version (2.24.3) to be very stable and fast,
after I complained about some stuff and found a workaround. (Note that I
don't use Exchange. People who use Exchange don't have much of a choice
as Kmail doesn't support it.)
In summary, I'm always open to try new stuff, but the barrier to
switching something as fundamental as one's MUA is pretty high.
poc
12:59 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com> wrote:
On 02/14/2009 01:26 PM, Linuxguy123 wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 12:20 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> It may be interesting to hear why you heathens choose Evolution over
>> KMail
>
I dropped kmail ages ago as the devs refused to move into the modern
html world - which I need for business. I was advised by the developers
that I should use text mail for all purposes and the world was wrong -
and the devs knew what was best.
Maybe they woke up .. other than that I used to kind of like kmail ...
great for mailing lists tho ... it also seemed to have stalled in its
development for a long long time .. maybe that changed too by now ..
g
It's still considered a security risk, but you can flip a switch to
enable it. Any by switch I mean checkbox.
--
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )
12:55 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Words by Mail Lists [Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 01:48:32PM -0500]:
On 02/14/2009 01:26 PM, Linuxguy123 wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 12:20 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> It may be interesting to hear why you heathens choose Evolution over
>> KMail
>
I dropped kmail ages ago as the devs refused to move into the modern
html world - which I need for business. I was advised by the developers
that I should use text mail for all purposes and the world was wrong -
and the devs knew what was best.
And they did know best.
--
Jose Celestino | http://japc.uncovering.org/files/japc-pgpkey.asc
----------------------------------------------------------------
"One man’s theology is another man’s belly laugh." -- Robert A. Heinlein
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On 02/14/2009 01:26 PM, Linuxguy123 wrote:
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 12:20 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> It may be interesting to hear why you heathens choose Evolution over
> KMail
I dropped kmail ages ago as the devs refused to move into the modern
html world - which I need for business. I was advised by the developers
that I should use text mail for all purposes and the world was wrong -
and the devs knew what was best.
Maybe they woke up .. other than that I used to kind of like kmail ...
great for mailing lists tho ... it also seemed to have stalled in its
development for a long long time .. maybe that changed too by now ..
g
12:26 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 12:20 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
It may be interesting to hear why you heathens choose Evolution
over
KMail
I'm under the impression that the filtering and spam handling is better
in Evolution. Am I wrong ?
I have 7 email accounts for various purposes that get filtered into 45
different mailboxes.
And Evolution does a good job of managing my contacts.
Is Kmail better than this ?
12:20 p.m.
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Donald Reader <fc-list(a)reader.ws> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Linuxguy123 <linuxguy123(a)gmail.com>
Reply-to: "Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using
Fedora." <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
To: fedora-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:50:46 -0700
<snip>
I thought I'd start a thread on first thoughts about KDE4.2...
It feels faster.
</snip>
I agree
I can't say myself as my test machine is faster than my desktop
<snip>
I don't think it looks as nice as KDE 4.1.x did. I liked the black
background on the panel better than the current panel color scheme. That
is probably being picky, but it is what I think. Maybe the panel
background color could be set in the future ?
</snip>
agreed also and I have tried to change the panel color with no success
<snip>
Evolution seems to run faster. I have really large email folders.
</snip>
yes it seems faster to me too.
It may be interesting to hear why you heathens choose Evolution over KMail
<snip>
Overall, it looks pretty good.
Kudos to the KDE team for their efforts.
</snip>
Agreed on overall look and feel.
Great job KDE team
Don
In < 4.2, one could change the color of the lower toolbar, I haven't
been able to find that option in 4.2
--
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )
11:21 a.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 10:00:04 -0700
Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com> wrote:
----
Interestingly enough, when I change desktop themes, the
Fedora logo appears for the Application Launcher
momentarily, and then it reverts back to blank document
with question mark again.
You are missing an icon that you don't need. You probably
have two oxygen icon themes available; oxygen and fedora-kde
(modified oxygen). Choose Fedora. (system settings ->
appearance -> Icons)
Craig
--
"Neither Lifestyle nor Agenda"
http://www.tips-Q.com
9:10 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: Linuxguy123 <linuxguy123(a)gmail.com>
Reply-to: "Community assistance, encouragement, and advice for using
Fedora." <fedora-list(a)redhat.com>
To: fedora-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:50:46 -0700
<snip>
I thought I'd start a thread on first thoughts about KDE4.2...
It feels faster.
</snip>
I agree
<snip>
I don't think it looks as nice as KDE 4.1.x did. I liked the black
background on the panel better than the current panel color scheme. That
is probably being picky, but it is what I think. Maybe the panel
background color could be set in the future ?
</snip>
agreed also and I have tried to change the panel color with no success
<snip>
Evolution seems to run faster. I have really large email folders.
</snip>
yes it seems faster to me too.
<snip>
Overall, it looks pretty good.
Kudos to the KDE team for their efforts.
</snip>
Agreed on overall look and feel.
Great job KDE team
Don
8:04 a.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 18:38 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote:
Linuxguy123 wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 16:19 -0700, Linuxguy123 wrote:
>> I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
Curious, what video hw/driver are you using? Many of the issues you
mention, could be attributable to driver issues.
-- Rex
Could be, Rex.
$ yum list *nvidia*
Loaded plugins: downloadonly, kmdl, priorities, refresh-packagekit
2 packages excluded due to repository priority protections
Installed Packages
kmod-nvidia.i686
180.25-1.fc10
installed
kmod-nvidia-2.6.27.12-170.2.5.fc10.i686.i686
180.25-1.fc10
installed
kmod-nvidia-2.6.27.7-134.fc10.i686.i686
177.82-1.fc10.6
installed
kmod-nvidia-2.6.27.9-159.fc10.i686.i686
180.22-1.fc10
installed
xorg-x11-drv-nvidia.i386
180.25-1.fc10
installed
xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-libs.i386
180.25-1.fc10 installed
I think there are some redraw routines going into a loop. I'm also
running dual displays. That might have something to do with it too.
KDE4.2 isn't terrible by any means. There are just a few things that
need a bit of attention.
I am going to wait for KDE4.2.1 before I say anything. I bet all these
issues will be cleaned up shortly. None of them are deal breakers for
me.
BTW: Have you seen the blog posts on how Qt4.5 is supposed to be much
better than Qt4.4 ?
5:27 a.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
Em Sex 13 Fev 2009, Craig White escreveu:
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 16:42 -0700, Linuxguy123 wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 16:19 -0700, Linuxguy123 wrote:
> > I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
> >
> > 1) KDE asks for root permission when I open a folder with Dolphin
> > from a folderview.
> >
> > 2) Kstart gets messed up when I go from classical mode to the
> > kickoff mode. Half the kickoff menu extends below the bottom of
> > my display. The Kstart widget icon gets big when I am done.
> >
> > 3) I've crashed plasma twice and I get errors when I start it
> > from time to time.
> >
> > 4) I crashed one of my panels when I tried to rearrange the icons
> > in it. Now I can't add a Konsole icon to it.
> >
> > 5) I get funky flashing menus in applications from time to time.
> >
> > 6) My display goes funky during boot up. It starts good but then
> > displays parts of old windows then goes black (or blue) for a
> > long time. After a while it goes normal, except that the desktop
> > background doesn't display on my second monitor.
> >
> > I'm not saying KDE4.2 is bad, just that its not entirely stable.
> > Hopefully there will be an update in the near future. After all,
> > it is a .0 release.
>
> 7) The analog clock widget on my desktop disappears from time to
> time. The clock hands remain, but the rest goes invisible. If I
> click around, it redraws.
----
I've had none of those problems but I don't use folder view or
classic menus nor do I add launcher buttons to panel. I do however
use the analog clock and no issues with that. I have a desktop (uses
nv video) and a laptop (uses intel video) and it sounds as if your
problems might be caused by some 3rd party video driver.
I too am not crazy about the new blue panel (apparently unchangeable)
and for some strange reason, the 'Application Launcher' widget in my
panel on my laptop since upgrade is now a blank document with a
question mark and removing the widget and re-adding doesn't fix that
- it looks tacky.
I remember reading about someone with a similar problem with the device
notifier icon, and it was solved installing oxygen scalable icon theme.
[]'s
Marcelo
6:38 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
Linuxguy123 wrote:
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 16:19 -0700, Linuxguy123 wrote:
> I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
Curious, what video hw/driver are you using? Many of the issues you
mention, could be attributable to driver issues.
-- Rex
11:57 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
Craig White wrote:
ah - that was what I needed...desktop theme. I was looking at panel
settings. I guess the reason they are using Oxygen is because it does
appear more 3D like but I found silicon to be compact and attractive.
I like Aya because it actually respects my color scheme.
Kevin Kofler
11:15 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 22:56 -0500, homburg(a)tips-Q.com wrote:
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:17:59 -0700
Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com> wrote:
> I too am not crazy about the new blue panel (apparently
> unchangeable)
It is changeable. The desktop theme is really the panel
theme. I use "elegance" and have a blended dark gray panel.
----
ah - that was what I needed...desktop theme. I was looking at panel
settings. I guess the reason they are using Oxygen is because it does
appear more 3D like but I found silicon to be compact and attractive.
----
>and for some strange reason, the
> 'Application Launcher' widget in my panel on my laptop
> since upgrade is now a blank document with a question
> mark and removing the widget and re-adding doesn't fix
> that - it looks tacky.
Strange. Mine is fine. I have a funny feeling that KDE has
some problems with settings migration.
----
dunno - my desktop the icon is fine and this system has been migrated
from at least FC6 up to now F10. My Acer Aspire One has only known F10
and here it's tacky. Not sure how much migration there is.
Craig
8:47 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:19:13 -0700
Linuxguy123 <linuxguy123(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
1) KDE asks for root permission when I open a folder with
Dolphin from a folderview.
2) Kstart gets messed up when I go from classical mode to
the kickoff mode. Half the kickoff menu extends below
the bottom of my display. The Kstart widget icon gets big
when I am done.
3) I've crashed plasma twice and I get errors when I
start it from time to time.
4) I crashed one of my panels when I tried to rearrange
the icons in it. Now I can't add a Konsole icon to it.
5) I get funky flashing menus in applications from time
to time.
Strange. I am usually the canary in the coal mine and have
had none of these problems. You might want to zap .kde and
start with a fresh config.
--
"Neither Lifestyle nor Agenda"
http://www.tips-Q.com
7:17 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 16:42 -0700, Linuxguy123 wrote:
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 16:19 -0700, Linuxguy123 wrote:
> I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
>
> 1) KDE asks for root permission when I open a folder with Dolphin from a
> folderview.
>
> 2) Kstart gets messed up when I go from classical mode to the kickoff
> mode. Half the kickoff menu extends below the bottom of my display.
> The Kstart widget icon gets big when I am done.
>
> 3) I've crashed plasma twice and I get errors when I start it from time
> to time.
>
> 4) I crashed one of my panels when I tried to rearrange the icons in it.
> Now I can't add a Konsole icon to it.
>
> 5) I get funky flashing menus in applications from time to time.
>
> 6) My display goes funky during boot up. It starts good but then
> displays parts of old windows then goes black (or blue) for a long time.
> After a while it goes normal, except that the desktop background doesn't
> display on my second monitor.
>
> I'm not saying KDE4.2 is bad, just that its not entirely stable.
> Hopefully there will be an update in the near future. After all, it is
> a .0 release.
7) The analog clock widget on my desktop disappears from time to time.
The clock hands remain, but the rest goes invisible. If I click around,
it redraws.
----
I've had none of those problems but I don't use folder view or classic
menus nor do I add launcher buttons to panel. I do however use the
analog clock and no issues with that. I have a desktop (uses nv video)
and a laptop (uses intel video) and it sounds as if your problems might
be caused by some 3rd party video driver.
I too am not crazy about the new blue panel (apparently unchangeable)
and for some strange reason, the 'Application Launcher' widget in my
panel on my laptop since upgrade is now a blank document with a question
mark and removing the widget and re-adding doesn't fix that - it looks
tacky.
Craig
5:55 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Linuxguy123 <linuxguy123(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
A suggestion.
Create a fresh user and do some testing with that fresh user account
in an effort to isolate potential problems incurred from personal
configurations that you have accumulated.
Are you using any out of tree kernel modules at the moment?
-jef
5:42 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 16:19 -0700, Linuxguy123 wrote:
I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
1) KDE asks for root permission when I open a folder with Dolphin from a
folderview.
2) Kstart gets messed up when I go from classical mode to the kickoff
mode. Half the kickoff menu extends below the bottom of my display.
The Kstart widget icon gets big when I am done.
3) I've crashed plasma twice and I get errors when I start it from time
to time.
4) I crashed one of my panels when I tried to rearrange the icons in it.
Now I can't add a Konsole icon to it.
5) I get funky flashing menus in applications from time to time.
6) My display goes funky during boot up. It starts good but then
displays parts of old windows then goes black (or blue) for a long time.
After a while it goes normal, except that the desktop background doesn't
display on my second monitor.
I'm not saying KDE4.2 is bad, just that its not entirely stable.
Hopefully there will be an update in the near future. After all, it is
a .0 release.
7) The analog clock widget on my desktop disappears from time to time.
The clock hands remain, but the rest goes invisible. If I click around,
it redraws.
5:38 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 16:19 -0700, Linuxguy123 wrote:
I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
1) KDE asks for root permission when I open a folder with Dolphin from a
folderview.
Works for me.
2) Kstart gets messed up when I go from classical mode to the
kickoff
mode. Half the kickoff menu extends below the bottom of my display.
The Kstart widget icon gets big when I am done.
I never do that so I wouldn't know.
3) I've crashed plasma twice and I get errors when I start it
from time
to time.
Never seen that.
4) I crashed one of my panels when I tried to rearrange the icons in
it.
Now I can't add a Konsole icon to it.
Works for me.
5) I get funky flashing menus in applications from time to time.
Haven't seen that.
6) My display goes funky during boot up. It starts good but then
displays parts of old windows then goes black (or blue) for a long time.
After a while it goes normal, except that the desktop background doesn't
display on my second monitor.
I think I saw a bad root window redraw once. It went away when I moved a
window on top of it.
Perhaps you should try with a fresh .kde and see what happens.
poc
5:19 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
1) KDE asks for root permission when I open a folder with Dolphin from a
folderview.
2) Kstart gets messed up when I go from classical mode to the kickoff
mode. Half the kickoff menu extends below the bottom of my display.
The Kstart widget icon gets big when I am done.
3) I've crashed plasma twice and I get errors when I start it from time
to time.
4) I crashed one of my panels when I tried to rearrange the icons in it.
Now I can't add a Konsole icon to it.
5) I get funky flashing menus in applications from time to time.
6) My display goes funky during boot up. It starts good but then
displays parts of old windows then goes black (or blue) for a long time.
After a while it goes normal, except that the desktop background doesn't
display on my second monitor.
I'm not saying KDE4.2 is bad, just that its not entirely stable.
Hopefully there will be an update in the near future. After all, it is
a .0 release.
2:35 p.m.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Linuxguy123 <linuxguy123(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I thought I'd start a thread on first thoughts about KDE4.2...
It feels faster.
True.
I don't think it looks as nice as KDE 4.1.x did. I liked the
black
background on the panel better than the current panel color scheme. That
is probably being picky, but it is what I think. Maybe the panel
background color could be set in the future ?
I find the file icon "icon bars" that appear on an icon when you
holdover to be too big now. I thought they were better in KDE 4.1.4.
True,
Chitlesh
11:47 a.m.
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 12:54 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 09:50 -0700, Linuxguy123 wrote:
> Evolution seems to run faster. I have really large email folders.
Evolution is a Gnome app. There's no reason it should run any faster in
KDE 4.2 than in 4.1. Perhaps you updated Evo at the same time (2.24 has
new indexing code which makes large folders much better).
I know that Evo is a gnome app. It still feels faster. There doesn't
appear to have been any changes to it recently.
grep "evolution" yum.log
Jan 08 08:08:28 Updated: evolution-2.24.2-3.fc10.i386
Jan 08 08:10:01 Updated: evolution-help-2.24.2-3.fc10.i386
Jan 23 19:43:43 Updated: evolution-data-server-2.24.3-1.fc10.i386
Jan 23 19:44:25 Updated: evolution-data-server-doc-2.24.3-1.fc10.i386
Jan 23 19:44:28 Updated: evolution-data-server-devel-2.24.3-1.fc10.i386
Jan 23 19:45:39 Updated: evolution-2.24.3-1.fc10.i386
Jan 23 19:46:22 Updated: evolution-help-2.24.3-1.fc10.i386
[...]
> It doesn't seem possible to move icons within a panel.
Click on the cashew (right side of the panel) and hover over the icon
you want to move. Hold down the left mouse button, drag and release.
That worked. Thanks. The panel also crashed once while I was moving
icons around.
11:24 a.m.
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 09:50 -0700, Linuxguy123 wrote:
Evolution seems to run faster. I have really large email folders.
Evolution is a Gnome app. There's no reason it should run any faster in
KDE 4.2 than in 4.1. Perhaps you updated Evo at the same time (2.24 has
new indexing code which makes large folders much better).
[...]
It doesn't seem possible to move icons within a panel.
Click on the cashew (right side of the panel) and hover over the icon
you want to move. Hold down the left mouse button, drag and release.
poc
6:58 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Friday 13 February 2009 19:19:13 Linuxguy123 wrote:
I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
1) KDE asks for root permission when I open a folder with Dolphin from a
folderview.
2) Kstart gets messed up when I go from classical mode to the kickoff
mode. Half the kickoff menu extends below the bottom of my display.
The Kstart widget icon gets big when I am done.
3) I've crashed plasma twice and I get errors when I start it from time
to time.
4) I crashed one of my panels when I tried to rearrange the icons in it.
Now I can't add a Konsole icon to it.
5) I get funky flashing menus in applications from time to time.
6) My display goes funky during boot up. It starts good but then
displays parts of old windows then goes black (or blue) for a long time.
After a while it goes normal, except that the desktop background doesn't
display on my second monitor.
I'm not saying KDE4.2 is bad, just that its not entirely stable.
Hopefully there will be an update in the near future. After all, it is
a .0 release.
these all should go into bugzilla =)
--
Armin Moradi
6:31 a.m.
On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 16:44 +0530, Rangeen Basu wrote:
As far as I understand by reading the subject is that this was
supposed to be a review thread about KDE 4.2 and not about evolution
or Kmail. So please stop fooling around and carry on with the mail
client comparisons in some other threads.
Who are you talking to? The subthread about Kmail etc. is clearly
marked. It also isn't the subthread you replied to.
poc
5:14 a.m.
As far as I understand by reading the subject is that this was supposed to
be a review thread about KDE 4.2 and not about evolution or Kmail. So please
stop fooling around and carry on with the mail client comparisons in some
other threads.
--
Rangeen Basu Roy Chowdhury
sherry151(a)gmail.com
!!!Windows is "micro"-soft[ware]..I like bigger things!!!
5:34 a.m.
New subject: Black vs. blue panel (was: Re: First thoughts on KDE4.2...)
Anne Wilson wrote:
I don't suppose you know one with a transparent panel? I'm
using 'naked'
(or maybe 'bare naked'? - since I changed some settings it just shows as
'customized') which looks good for widgets etc., but still leaves me with
a black panel.
Try Oxyglass. Though, no matter what the theme, translucency will only work
with desktop effects enabled.
Kevin Kofler
3:15 p.m.
On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 12:20:46 -0600
Arthur Pemberton <pemboa(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It may be interesting to hear why you heathens choose
Evolution over KMail
Food fight!!
My personal choice is claws-mail. Evo is a ponderous,
bloated hog. Claws-mail is much more flexible than KMail.
These things usually boil down to personal taste.
--
"Neither Lifestyle nor Agenda"
http://www.tips-Q.com
12:40 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Linuxguy123 <linuxguy123(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 12:20 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> It may be interesting to hear why you heathens choose Evolution over
> KMail
I'm under the impression that the filtering and spam handling is better
in Evolution. Am I wrong ?
No idea, I was kinda hoping that you guys had some reasons which could
lead to RFEs.
I have 7 email accounts for various purposes that get filtered into
45
different mailboxes.
Interesting
And Evolution does a good job of managing my contacts.
Is Kmail better than this ?
Its kinda hard to say. Seems like you tried Evo first and it was god
enough so you stuck with it.
Was wondering if there were simply several flaws you found in KMail
and so use Evo
--
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )
12:14 a.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 06:57 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Craig White wrote:
> ah - that was what I needed...desktop theme. I was looking at panel
> settings. I guess the reason they are using Oxygen is because it does
> appear more 3D like but I found silicon to be compact and attractive.
I like Aya because it actually respects my color scheme.
----
too close the Apple's brushed chrome or whatever they call it.
Craig
9:56 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:17:59 -0700
Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com> wrote:
----
I've had none of those problems but I don't use folder
view or classic menus nor do I add launcher buttons to
panel. I do however use the analog clock and no issues
with that. I have a desktop (uses nv video) and a laptop
(uses intel video) and it sounds as if your problems
might be caused by some 3rd party video driver.
I use folder view, classic menus and launcher buttons and
have none of those problems.
I too am not crazy about the new blue panel (apparently
unchangeable)
It is changeable. The desktop theme is really the panel
theme. I use "elegance" and have a blended dark gray panel.
and for some strange reason, the
'Application Launcher' widget in my panel on my laptop
since upgrade is now a blank document with a question
mark and removing the widget and re-adding doesn't fix
that - it looks tacky.
Strange. Mine is fine. I have a funny feeling that KDE has
some problems with settings migration.
--
"Neither Lifestyle nor Agenda"
http://www.tips-Q.com
4:34 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Mail Lists wrote:
It is expected in the business world for those things not complex
enough to warrant a separate document but needing some structure which
can be easily passed along and edited.
That's what ASCII art is for.
HTML ASCII Art
Works Yes Yes
Wastes bandwidth Yes No
Where's the problem?
Oh, and just switch to a fixed width font (in KMail or KNode, you just have
to press X) if it doesn't display perfectly. (But the extra spacing should
be such that you get the idea even if the spacing is not perfect.)
Kevin Kofler
3:05 p.m.
New subject: Evolution versus Kmail. Was: First thoughts on KDE4.2...
Em Sáb 14 Fev 2009, Mail Lists escreveu:
On 02/14/2009 01:59 PM, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> g
>
> It's still considered a security risk, but you can flip a switch to
> enable it. Any by switch I mean checkbox.
It has largely supported displaying html for a long time.
It was sending/replying that was a problem - especially if for
example your boss sends you an embedded table and you need to reply
and edit without destroying the format, or if you get a table with a
list of things to approve - with every mailer except kmail, i just
added my approval in the cell. R
Replying to structured email and not destroying the format was
impossible or exceedingly painful and inefficient.
If it has improved in that regard wonderful news ..
Unfortunately, it didn't.
[]'s
Marcelo
11 a.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Sat, 2009-02-14 at 08:27 -0300, Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote:
Em Sex 13 Fev 2009, Craig White escreveu:
> I too am not crazy about the new blue panel (apparently
unchangeable)
> and for some strange reason, the 'Application Launcher' widget in my
> panel on my laptop since upgrade is now a blank document with a
> question mark and removing the widget and re-adding doesn't fix that
> - it looks tacky.
I remember reading about someone with a similar problem with the device
notifier icon, and it was solved installing oxygen scalable icon theme.
----
Interestingly enough, when I change desktop themes, the Fedora logo
appears for the Application Launcher momentarily, and then it reverts
back to blank document with question mark again.
Craig
6:16 p.m.
New subject: First thoughts on KDE4.2... lots of bugs...
On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 14:55 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Linuxguy123
<linuxguy123(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm finding a lot of bugs in KDE4.2
A suggestion.
Create a fresh user and do some testing with that fresh user account
in an effort to isolate potential problems incurred from personal
configurations that you have accumulated.
I'll see how my weekend goes. I did some early testing using a KDE
4.1.96 live USB image and it worked well.
Are you using any out of tree kernel modules at the moment?
Nope. Everything I'm running is from the Fedora stable repo.
12:31 a.m.
New subject: Black vs. blue panel (was: Re: First thoughts on KDE4.2...)
Anne Wilson wrote:
I have OpenGL rendering. I wonder if that's affecting things?
Maybe I
should try the alternative.
I think it's just how these themes are.
Maybe you want to make your own theme with more transparency? It's all SVG,
no code needed (nor supported, unfortunately, which makes making Plasma
themes very unattractive for developers like me; artists should love it
though ;-) ).
Kevin Kofler
5573
days inactive
5577
days old
61 comments
18 participants
participants (18)
-
Alan Cox -
Anne Wilson -
Armin -
Arthur Pemberton -
Chitlesh GOORAH -
Craig White -
Donald Reader -
Genes MailLists -
homburg＠tips-Q.com -
Jef Spaleta -
Jose Celestino -
Kevin Kofler -
linux guy -
Marcelo Magno T. Sales -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Rangeen Basu -
Rex Dieter -
Tim