Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
Rajanish Kumar Fedora User
On 03/28/2010 01:59 PM, Rajanish Kumar wrote:
Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
It is better to use su - or configure sudo but if you must do this, refer to
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Enabling_Root_User_For_GNOME_Display_Manager
Rahul
On 28 March 2010 01:29, Rajanish Kumar rajanish.kumar007@gmail.com wrote:
Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
You don't need to. For all tasks needing root privileges, you will be asked for the root password and you can do all the administrative tasks as user "rajanish". The interface looks something like this,
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll164/jalladandtux/screenies/root-passwor...
Rajanish Kumar Fedora User
Good Luck
On 03/28/2010 03:29 AM, Rajanish Kumar wrote:
Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
Rajanish Kumar Fedora User
Others will answer how to log in through root.
I would express a different concern.
Please forgive me if this sounds like a rant. I don't wish it to be such. The following is what I believe.
Linux has a different mindset from Windows.
I think of Windows as being single-user focused. One user, at a time, does things on Windows. That user, is, for all intents and purposes, "god" on the PC. That user, invariably, runs with administrator privileges.
I realize I am being unfair to Windows. One can have multiple Windows users "active" at the same time. One can leave one user active and log in as another user.
Windows users can be restricted from administrator privileges.
Windows users are coerced into running with administrator privileges. Windows users run programs that try to do upgrades automatically. Windows users visit websites that try to do installs immediately.
Linux is multi-user. People are expected to run as normal users. People should be root only long enough to do system things.
Program developers create downloads with this in mind. People can download and compile and build programs as normal users. Only when people need to install, do people need to become root.
For most things, people should run as a "normal" user. When I see a person running normal programs, as root, I shudder.
People have arguments, which is more secure, Windows or Linux. I believe it is not the operating system that is secure or insecure. I believe it is the way people use the operating system.
I believe one can take an insecure Windows operating system and make it secure. One can argue, it will also be annoying to use, or unusable, but that is another discussion.
I believe one can take a secure Linux operating system and make it insecure.
What am I trying to say?
Please be very, very careful what you do as root. You can make a terrible mess if you don't know what you are doing.
This is the end of my rant...wishing it didn't sound like a rant.
To help this person and me and others, can someone suggest some reasonable websites that explain how to keep Linux secure and how to be a Linux administrator for beginners?
What I found, when searching the Internet, was rather dated.
I'm not looking for information on selinux or the intricacies of iptables.
I'd rather find a tutorial saying things like... only run services (chkconfig service ...) you need, only open firewall ports (iptables ...) you really want opened, only install software from sources you trust, don't run user programs or games as root, get a USB drive for backups and how to do backups, etc.
I have a personal reason for asking for this information.
My sister keeps bringing her Windows XP PC to me for fixing. It takes her less than a week to get viruses on her PC. I've reloaded from the factory partition twice already.
The second time, she got viruses, really frustrated me. Before giving her back her PC, I made sure all the patches were in. I had Norton Utilities running with all updates. I made sure her firewall was enabled. Did me little good.
Her PC currently has some viruses on it (this is the third time). Again, I made sure all patches were in and all updates were in.
Norton Utilities can detect the viruses, but not remove them.
I told her I wanted to install Linux on her PC. She is bucking. She knows how to find notepad. She wants to be able to run a "Creative Memories" program. She has both Internet Explorer and firefox (I tried to get her to use firefox) set to go to her favorite website, as her home page.
I only find out she has a problem when she can't do her usual routine. The first two times, I found out, because the malware was demanding money and wouldn't let her do anything with her PC.
This last time, I found out, because, when she clicked the web browser icon, it went to the wrong web page, not her home page.
Even if I force her to switch to Linux, I will have problems. She will fuss and fuss until I give her the root password. I won't want to give her the root password...for obvious reasons. She will take a "secure" Linux system and make it vulnerable. She won't know what she is doing.
You may think I'm being unfair to her...and I am. She is not computer literate. She is literate in other things. She calls her PC her brain because someone explained the PC was the brain. She doesn't know what a hard disk is...she doesn't know the difference between program and data...she doesn't know how to find things unless those things are icons on the desktop...she needs help configuring her printer and ethernet. Once configured, she is happy.
As I say, I am being unfair to her...there are many things she knows that I don't know and don't wish to know...but she is not computer literate. For this discussion, that is what matters.
I was looking for the history of Linux and found an interesting URL from http://www.youtube.com/user/ComputerHistory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVTWCPoUt8w This is the first time I saw an image of Linus Torvalds.
If people could find tutorials on how to be an administrator for Linux, written for people who are not very computer literate, I would be appreciative.
su root password
On 03/28/2010 09:54 AM, Rick Sewill wrote:
On 03/28/2010 03:29 AM, Rajanish Kumar wrote:
Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
Rajanish Kumar Fedora User
Others will answer how to log in through root.
I would express a different concern.
Please forgive me if this sounds like a rant. I don't wish it to be such. The following is what I believe.
Linux has a different mindset from Windows.
I think of Windows as being single-user focused. One user, at a time, does things on Windows. That user, is, for all intents and purposes, "god" on the PC. That user, invariably, runs with administrator privileges.
I realize I am being unfair to Windows. One can have multiple Windows users "active" at the same time. One can leave one user active and log in as another user.
Windows users can be restricted from administrator privileges.
Windows users are coerced into running with administrator privileges. Windows users run programs that try to do upgrades automatically. Windows users visit websites that try to do installs immediately.
Linux is multi-user. People are expected to run as normal users. People should be root only long enough to do system things.
Program developers create downloads with this in mind. People can download and compile and build programs as normal users. Only when people need to install, do people need to become root.
For most things, people should run as a "normal" user. When I see a person running normal programs, as root, I shudder.
People have arguments, which is more secure, Windows or Linux. I believe it is not the operating system that is secure or insecure. I believe it is the way people use the operating system.
I believe one can take an insecure Windows operating system and make it secure. One can argue, it will also be annoying to use, or unusable, but that is another discussion.
I believe one can take a secure Linux operating system and make it insecure.
What am I trying to say?
Please be very, very careful what you do as root. You can make a terrible mess if you don't know what you are doing.
This is the end of my rant...wishing it didn't sound like a rant.
To help this person and me and others, can someone suggest some reasonable websites that explain how to keep Linux secure and how to be a Linux administrator for beginners?
What I found, when searching the Internet, was rather dated.
I'm not looking for information on selinux or the intricacies of iptables.
I'd rather find a tutorial saying things like... only run services (chkconfig service ...) you need, only open firewall ports (iptables ...) you really want opened, only install software from sources you trust, don't run user programs or games as root, get a USB drive for backups and how to do backups, etc.
I have a personal reason for asking for this information.
My sister keeps bringing her Windows XP PC to me for fixing. It takes her less than a week to get viruses on her PC. I've reloaded from the factory partition twice already.
The second time, she got viruses, really frustrated me. Before giving her back her PC, I made sure all the patches were in. I had Norton Utilities running with all updates. I made sure her firewall was enabled. Did me little good.
Her PC currently has some viruses on it (this is the third time). Again, I made sure all patches were in and all updates were in.
Norton Utilities can detect the viruses, but not remove them.
I told her I wanted to install Linux on her PC. She is bucking. She knows how to find notepad. She wants to be able to run a "Creative Memories" program. She has both Internet Explorer and firefox (I tried to get her to use firefox) set to go to her favorite website, as her home page.
I only find out she has a problem when she can't do her usual routine. The first two times, I found out, because the malware was demanding money and wouldn't let her do anything with her PC.
This last time, I found out, because, when she clicked the web browser icon, it went to the wrong web page, not her home page.
Even if I force her to switch to Linux, I will have problems. She will fuss and fuss until I give her the root password. I won't want to give her the root password...for obvious reasons. She will take a "secure" Linux system and make it vulnerable. She won't know what she is doing.
You may think I'm being unfair to her...and I am. She is not computer literate. She is literate in other things. She calls her PC her brain because someone explained the PC was the brain. She doesn't know what a hard disk is...she doesn't know the difference between program and data...she doesn't know how to find things unless those things are icons on the desktop...she needs help configuring her printer and ethernet. Once configured, she is happy.
As I say, I am being unfair to her...there are many things she knows that I don't know and don't wish to know...but she is not computer literate. For this discussion, that is what matters.
I was looking for the history of Linux and found an interesting URL from http://www.youtube.com/user/ComputerHistory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVTWCPoUt8w This is the first time I saw an image of Linus Torvalds.
If people could find tutorials on how to be an administrator for Linux, written for people who are not very computer literate, I would be appreciative.
hey...
as a guy who's been running different variants of unix/sun/vax vma for ~25 years... you can run as root/user with equal ability to screw up if you don't know what you're doing! running as a user implies that you can't do certain things/apps on a system.. but who's to say that someone didn't open up the system to allow users to run thoses "dangerous" apps as a user!
bottom line, people should know what the heck they're doing when they start to play on the system..
as to your issues with windows... what kind of virus system/apps are you running to prevent viruses from being able to be downloaded on the box???
if you have "good" anti-virus apps running, and they're updated on a frequent basis.. the system should be ok, unless she's going to sites that are probably good breeding grounds for getting infected. in which case, you should tell her to stay the hell away from those sites...
peace..
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Rick Sewill rsewill@gmail.com wrote:
On 03/28/2010 03:29 AM, Rajanish Kumar wrote:
Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
Rajanish Kumar Fedora User
Others will answer how to log in through root.
I would express a different concern.
Please forgive me if this sounds like a rant. I don't wish it to be such. The following is what I believe.
Linux has a different mindset from Windows.
I think of Windows as being single-user focused. One user, at a time, does things on Windows. That user, is, for all intents and purposes, "god" on the PC. That user, invariably, runs with administrator privileges.
I realize I am being unfair to Windows. One can have multiple Windows users "active" at the same time. One can leave one user active and log in as another user.
Windows users can be restricted from administrator privileges.
Windows users are coerced into running with administrator privileges. Windows users run programs that try to do upgrades automatically. Windows users visit websites that try to do installs immediately.
Linux is multi-user. People are expected to run as normal users. People should be root only long enough to do system things.
Program developers create downloads with this in mind. People can download and compile and build programs as normal users. Only when people need to install, do people need to become root.
For most things, people should run as a "normal" user. When I see a person running normal programs, as root, I shudder.
People have arguments, which is more secure, Windows or Linux. I believe it is not the operating system that is secure or insecure. I believe it is the way people use the operating system.
I believe one can take an insecure Windows operating system and make it secure. One can argue, it will also be annoying to use, or unusable, but that is another discussion.
I believe one can take a secure Linux operating system and make it insecure.
What am I trying to say?
Please be very, very careful what you do as root. You can make a terrible mess if you don't know what you are doing.
This is the end of my rant...wishing it didn't sound like a rant.
To help this person and me and others, can someone suggest some reasonable websites that explain how to keep Linux secure and how to be a Linux administrator for beginners?
What I found, when searching the Internet, was rather dated.
I'm not looking for information on selinux or the intricacies of iptables.
I'd rather find a tutorial saying things like... only run services (chkconfig service ...) you need, only open firewall ports (iptables ...) you really want opened, only install software from sources you trust, don't run user programs or games as root, get a USB drive for backups and how to do backups, etc.
I have a personal reason for asking for this information.
My sister keeps bringing her Windows XP PC to me for fixing. It takes her less than a week to get viruses on her PC. I've reloaded from the factory partition twice already.
The second time, she got viruses, really frustrated me. Before giving her back her PC, I made sure all the patches were in. I had Norton Utilities running with all updates. I made sure her firewall was enabled. Did me little good.
Her PC currently has some viruses on it (this is the third time). Again, I made sure all patches were in and all updates were in.
Norton Utilities can detect the viruses, but not remove them.
I told her I wanted to install Linux on her PC. She is bucking. She knows how to find notepad. She wants to be able to run a "Creative Memories" program. She has both Internet Explorer and firefox (I tried to get her to use firefox) set to go to her favorite website, as her home page.
I only find out she has a problem when she can't do her usual routine. The first two times, I found out, because the malware was demanding money and wouldn't let her do anything with her PC.
This last time, I found out, because, when she clicked the web browser icon, it went to the wrong web page, not her home page.
Even if I force her to switch to Linux, I will have problems. She will fuss and fuss until I give her the root password. I won't want to give her the root password...for obvious reasons. She will take a "secure" Linux system and make it vulnerable. She won't know what she is doing.
You may think I'm being unfair to her...and I am. She is not computer literate. She is literate in other things. She calls her PC her brain because someone explained the PC was the brain. She doesn't know what a hard disk is...she doesn't know the difference between program and data...she doesn't know how to find things unless those things are icons on the desktop...she needs help configuring her printer and ethernet. Once configured, she is happy.
As I say, I am being unfair to her...there are many things she knows that I don't know and don't wish to know...but she is not computer literate. For this discussion, that is what matters.
I was looking for the history of Linux and found an interesting URL from http://www.youtube.com/user/ComputerHistory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVTWCPoUt8w This is the first time I saw an image of Linus Torvalds.
If people could find tutorials on how to be an administrator for Linux, written for people who are not very computer literate, I would be appreciative.
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
On 28/03/10 09:29, Rajanish Kumar wrote:
Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
Rajanish Kumar Fedora User
At the login prompt (or your graphical login program - gdm, kdm etc) use the username "root" and password that you set when installing Fedora.
Please ignore all those that present horror stories and FUD about root, you have to learn somehow and the best way is to mess around as root.
Unlike a normal user, your path with will include /sbin so you won't need to prepend root commands with a path e.g. /sbin/ifconfig.
And if you happen to do something like "rm -rf /", just re-install and start-over, I'm sure you'll learn from your mistakes like we all did.
Albert.
hey rajanish..
rule of thought..
whenever you do a "rm "something".. do a "ls ..." first!!
saved my butt a few times!
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:26 PM, agraham agraham@g-b.net wrote:
On 28/03/10 09:29, Rajanish Kumar wrote:
Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
Rajanish Kumar Fedora User
At the login prompt (or your graphical login program - gdm, kdm etc) use the username "root" and password that you set when installing Fedora.
Please ignore all those that present horror stories and FUD about root, you have to learn somehow and the best way is to mess around as root.
Unlike a normal user, your path with will include /sbin so you won't need to prepend root commands with a path e.g. /sbin/ifconfig.
And if you happen to do something like "rm -rf /", just re-install and start-over, I'm sure you'll learn from your mistakes like we all did.
Albert.
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
On 28 March 2010 20:26, agraham agraham@g-b.net wrote:
On 28/03/10 09:29, Rajanish Kumar wrote:
Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
At the login prompt (or your graphical login program - gdm, kdm etc) use the username "root" and password that you set when installing Fedora.
Nice idea, but it won't work unless you enable it: http://linuxers.org/quick-tips/fedora-12-enable-root-login-gui
Please ignore all those that present horror stories and FUD about root, you have to learn somehow and the best way is to mess around as root.
I disagree and I am a professional Linux sysadmin. I never login as root.
Unlike a normal user, your path with will include /sbin so you won't need to prepend root commands with a path e.g. /sbin/ifconfig.
You can add /sbin and /usr/sbin to your normal path if this is a problem for you. I do this and then I login as a normal user and use "sudo" or "su -c" to prefix any commands I want to run as root.
And if you happen to do something like "rm -rf /", just re-install and start-over, I'm sure you'll learn from your mistakes like we all did.
No comment ;o)
-- Sam
On 03/28/2010 12:04 PM, bruce wrote:
hey...
as a guy who's been running different variants of unix/sun/vax vma for ~25 years... you can run as root/user with equal ability to screw up if you don't know what you're doing! running as a user implies that you can't do certain things/apps on a system.. but who's to say that someone didn't open up the system to allow users to run thoses "dangerous" apps as a user!
bottom line, people should know what the heck they're doing when they start to play on the system..
as to your issues with windows... what kind of virus system/apps are you running to prevent viruses from being able to be downloaded on the box???
if you have "good" anti-virus apps running, and they're updated on a frequent basis.. the system should be ok, unless she's going to sites that are probably good breeding grounds for getting infected. in which case, you should tell her to stay the hell away from those sites...
peace..
It was Norton anti-virus...and I updated to the latest patches. I updated Windows to the latest patches. I updated IE to IE 8, hoping that would slow down problems.
Unfortunately, you hit the nail on the head. Took her only a few days to get infected again.
She told me she was visiting hundreds of web sites looking for pictures. I don't think any anti-virus apps, even if kept up to date, could help.
I am stuck what to do. She doesn't want me switching her to Linux.
She wants her Creative Memories software to work. She is comfortable clicking the IE icon to get to Yahoo! mail.
She's learned how to find pictures and how to print pictures.
She wants to go to hundreds of web sites looking for pictures. It's something, she believe, the PC should be able to do. She doesn't understand why her PC can't be kept safe.
I was hoping against hope, switching her to Linux would slow the problem down. I doubt if anything can be done to prevent it.
I'm afraid I took this off-topic. Sorry to everyone for doing that.
On 03/28/2010 02:49 PM, Sam Sharpe wrote:
On 28 March 2010 20:26, agraham agraham@g-b.net wrote:
On 28/03/10 09:29, Rajanish Kumar wrote:
Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
At the login prompt (or your graphical login program - gdm, kdm etc) use the username "root" and password that you set when installing Fedora.
Nice idea, but it won't work unless you enable it: http://linuxers.org/quick-tips/fedora-12-enable-root-login-gui
Please ignore all those that present horror stories and FUD about root, you have to learn somehow and the best way is to mess around as root.
I disagree and I am a professional Linux sysadmin. I never login as root.
Unlike a normal user, your path with will include /sbin so you won't need to prepend root commands with a path e.g. /sbin/ifconfig.
You can add /sbin and /usr/sbin to your normal path if this is a problem for you. I do this and then I login as a normal user and use "sudo" or "su -c" to prefix any commands I want to run as root.
And if you happen to do something like "rm -rf /", just re-install and start-over, I'm sure you'll learn from your mistakes like we all did.
No comment ;o)
-- Sam
rm -rf / doesn't just happen on Linux...one of my coworkers did rm -rf * on Solaris...he thought he was one place, but he was at /
You should have heard his language. On second thought...no you shouldn't.
On Sun, 2010-03-28 at 20:26 +0100, agraham wrote:
On 28/03/10 09:29, Rajanish Kumar wrote:
Hi! I have already installed Fedora 12 .I have given root password...and finally added a user name "rajanish" .I am log in through "rajanish"but i have not accessing throgh root...I want to log in through root because i want to learn administrative property. please help me to guide log in through root..
Rajanish Kumar Fedora User
At the login prompt (or your graphical login program - gdm, kdm etc) use the username "root" and password that you set when installing Fedora.
---- already noted by others, this doesn't work by intent. There actually are sufficient reasons for not logging into a gui as root. ----
Please ignore all those that present horror stories and FUD about root, you have to learn somehow and the best way is to mess around as root.
---- just wow.
Think about it... if the OS has already configured it to prevent you from doing so, they probably did it for good reasons unless you think the Fedora packagers are the purveyors of FUD.
It's easy to get a superuser shell... just type 'su -' and provide root's password.
But to run everything as root - i.e. a web browser, e-mail, etc. makes everything on your box susceptible to malicious code wherever you encounter it. While the first user created on a Macintosh or Windows new installation will automatically be a 'superuser', those OS's have sought to implement UAC to try to blunt the effects of a 'superuser' unknowingly running malicious code. Linux philosophy tends to center on an only what is needed, limited permissions model and thus the first user is never a 'superuser' but sufficient tools exist to elevate ones' privileges when needed. ----
Unlike a normal user, your path with will include /sbin so you won't need to prepend root commands with a path e.g. /sbin/ifconfig.
And if you happen to do something like "rm -rf /", just re-install and start-over, I'm sure you'll learn from your mistakes like we all did.
---- Executing 'rm -rf /' is simply a command shell command and that level of stupidity surely doesn't require login as root.
Craig
On Sun, 2010-03-28 at 20:26 +0100, agraham wrote:
Please ignore all those that present horror stories and FUD about root, you have to learn somehow and the best way is to mess around as root.
Oh yes... like learning about firearms by playing russian roulette.
It ain't FUD about avoiding logging in as root, and doing everything as root. It's a fact it's a bad idea. Those who start off doing damn fool things, like that, learn all sorts of bad habits that they find very hard to break.
On Sun, 2010-03-28 at 03:01 -0700, suvayu ali wrote:
You don't need to. For all tasks needing root privileges, you will be asked for the root password and you can do all the administrative tasks as user "rajanish". The interface looks something like this,
Does the desktop for root login look/act any different now than normal user desktop compared to when root used to be allowed to login? I'm assuming there is no difference, which goes to the point of not needing to be root. And how often do you need to use root password for admin stuff? Not a lot once installed/updated.
On Sun, 2010-03-28 at 11:54 -0500, Rick Sewill wrote:
Linux is multi-user. People are expected to run as normal users. People should be root only long enough to do system things.
Program developers create downloads with this in mind. People can download and compile and build programs as normal users. Only when people need to install, do people need to become root.
That is one of the great things about the Linux mindset, the system is designed properly, in the first place. Anything that tries to break that model is, rightly, shot down in flames before it gets its claws in. It's very hard to use a Windows system properly, as so many things rely on you using it badly, and there's just no convincing some programmers that they're stupid and evil for not doing things the right way.
My sister keeps bringing her Windows XP PC to me for fixing. It takes her less than a week to get viruses on her PC. I've reloaded from the factory partition twice already.
Running with too many privileges, I'll bet. And probably not just because it's easier that way, but quite likely because some software just won't do its tricks if you don't.
The second time, she got viruses, really frustrated me. Before giving her back her PC, I made sure all the patches were in. I had Norton Utilities running with all updates. I made sure her firewall was enabled. Did me little good.
Her PC currently has some viruses on it (this is the third time). Again, I made sure all patches were in and all updates were in.
Norton Utilities can detect the viruses, but not remove them.
A way too familiar story to me, and I'm sure countless others. The system lets malware do what it likes, but it won't let you fix it. Why can't they learn and make it so the malware has just as hard a time trying to stuff up a system?
Even if I force her to switch to Linux, I will have problems. She will fuss and fuss until I give her the root password. I won't want to give her the root password...for obvious reasons. She will take a "secure" Linux system and make it vulnerable. She won't know what she is doing.
And that is the problem. You simply cannot leave a computer illiterate person to *manage* a system. If they don't understand how it works, they will stuff it up. It's inevitable. Even letting them just *use* a system is problematic.
All you can do with people like that is to lock up a system tight, and lock them out of changes. They'll find it unpleasant, it's unavoidable. They'll still manage to find some way to stuff it up, that's unavoidable, but it'll be more difficult for them to do so.
I spent years dealing with that problem with one person, in particular. Finally he got the message about not running as the admin, and not just installing anything that sounds attractive. I rarely hear from him, now. Because he doesn't *need* to keep calling for help.
He finally updated to XP, and that was when most of those problems went away. It was the first consumer Windows release where it was reasonably feasible to protect a user against their own stupidity. Of course it did require some education, too. But he'd, by then, acknowledged that he was the problem, and he needed to follow the advice I kept on giving him (the same advice, it wasn't going to change, just because he didn't like it).
If you do get her onto Linux, you will have some advantages. It will (probably) be a release you're familiar with, and can help more than helping with Windows. You'll probably be able to remotely administer it easier than with Windows (heck that's slow, because it's all heavy graphics). And you can set up a system that lets the user graphically install new software without having to enter a root password each time (just one initial okay, and the policy is set, for the life of the release), where that system will let them install stuff from the repos. There are FAR less vectors of attack onto a Linux box, especially when the user isn't running servers. Not to mention that they're far less likely to be installing random gee-whiz toy software from some random website, simply because there's very little of that crap out there for Linux users, and there's a ton of stuff already supplied with a distro.
Probably the only semi-literate Windows user that is going to survive will be the *really* clueless. The ones who're just unable to manage adding anything new to their computer, even when the malware tries to help them through the steps.
If people could find tutorials on how to be an administrator for Linux, written for people who are not very computer literate, I would be appreciative.
Really, what's needed, long before how-to tutorials, is understanding the concepts behind how a computer system works.
The first thing I used to teach people was filing. Never mind technicalities, just the basic idea that you named things sensibly (so you could find them), and you filed them away in sane locations (so you could find them, and not wreck a system). I taught the concept with the visual aids of bits of paper and boxes/folders to put them in, and the thought of "imagine trying to read something, in particular, in a library where all the books had been thrown on the floor in a pile, and with all their pages torn out, strewn around" (which is exactly how some people's computers are).
If they couldn't grasp the concept of *organisation*, they were a lost cause. It's a requirement for using such a highly technical, and pedantic thing, as a computer. It breaks, very quickly, and very badly, if you mess up its organisation.
Then, and only after that stage, was their any point to teaching them much more about using the computer. And, again, it's the simple non-technical concept that has to be drummed in first. Not lessons in how to install something (the steps), but *why* you do not go around installing things, *why* you do not run as the admin...
It also helps to throw in the ye olde stern parenting message of "I'm not going to keep on fixing this for you." I cannot overstate the value of the word "no." A person will not learn to look after their computer until you make them. The old "cruel to be kind" approach.
If you can't make them see that unless they learn more, they're going to keep having a broken system, then you're going to be doomed to forever fixing it up for them.
On 10-03-28 16:24:39, Rick Sewill wrote: ...
It was Norton anti-virus...and I updated to the latest patches. I updated Windows to the latest patches. I updated IE to IE 8, hoping that would slow down problems.
Unfortunately, you hit the nail on the head. Took her only a few days to get infected again.
She told me she was visiting hundreds of web sites looking for pictures. I don't think any anti-virus apps, even if kept up to date, could help.
I am stuck what to do. She doesn't want me switching her to Linux.
...
It sounds more like adware than viruses. Lock down IE (and I suppose FF). Visit all of IE's preferences panels and close all the holes. Try turning off Javascript and removing Flash (though she will object).
Make sure she runs as a normal user -- don't let her have the Administrator password, as she is incompetent. Tell her that if you find any software installed system-wide that you yourself did not put there, that she will have to pay someone else to get her computer back, as you won't. (It's likely that an honest service business also won't let her have the Administrator password.)
Encourage her to use separate user accounts for web browsing and her other stuff. Maybe make the various programs only available for the proper user, if necessary, by installing for that user only. (Parts of IE must be available system-wide, but not the web browser itself.)
On 03/28/2010 04:48 PM, Tim wrote:
It also helps to throw in the ye olde stern parenting message of "I'm not going to keep on fixing this for you." I cannot overstate the value of the word "no." A person will not learn to look after their computer until you make them. The old "cruel to be kind" approach.
If you can't make them see that unless they learn more, they're going to keep having a broken system, then you're going to be doomed to forever fixing it up for them.
One thing that can help in the fight to educate users is to start charging to fix their system. Yes, it is hard to charge your friends and family for fixing things, But for some reason, they listen to your advice better if they are paying for it.
Mikkel
On Sun, 2010-03-28 at 17:08 -0500, Mikkel wrote:
One thing that can help in the fight to educate users is to start charging to fix their system. Yes, it is hard to charge your friends and family for fixing things, But for some reason, they listen to your advice better if they are paying for it.
Yes. It starts with the simple, I get a good meal for fixing your computer. And you can probably end it by asking them to unblock your toilet while you fix their computer. ;-)
Whenever someone asks you to fix their computer, ask them to help you do something to help you, in return. You can use that to actually get things done that you need help with, or dissuade them from asking you again. Simply by careful selection of your payment. ;-) Be sure to pick something equally time-consuming and aggravating. Plumbing, painting, gardening...
I view having to fix someone else's computer with the same relish as if they'd asked me to unblock their toilet, with my bare hands. And I tell people that all the time. It gets the message through.
These days I tell people I don't use Windows any more, and haven't for years. I can't even recommend a good anti-virus program to them, or anti-malware, etc., because I don't use them, and don't need to. So I've no idea which are good. And, no, I don't want someone to tell me about which are the current good ones (I think they all suck, anyway). That line has saved me from many wasted hours.
On 28 March 2010 23:38, Tim ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au wrote:
These days I tell people I don't use Windows any more, and haven't for years. I can't even recommend a good anti-virus program to them, or anti-malware, etc., because I don't use them, and don't need to. So I've no idea which are good. And, no, I don't want someone to tell me about which are the current good ones (I think they all suck, anyway). That line has saved me from many wasted hours.
I have a similar approach.
I tell people unless it's running Linux and probably mounted in a Rack, I don't have a clue how to fix it. This is pretty much the truth as I only boot my Windows VM occasionally to edit my Exchange filtering rules.
When pushed, I "fixed" my sister's laptop that wouldn't boot Windows (I did spend an hour trying, for which I was paid in cups of tea) by giving her a Fedora LiveCD so she could access the Internet, her email and facebook until she could get someone who "knew Windows" to reinstall it. She used the LiveCD for a week and didn't actually complain, but she did get Windows re-loaded in the end.
-- Sam
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