Everyone:
I'm trying to sort out the rumors I've heard. Among other things: that using a Live Spin CD on an existing Fedora system is not safe, and will destroy all data.
Has that actually happened to anyone here?
What is the safest way to upgrade an existing system from F17->F18?
Temlakos
Am 24.01.2013 03:10, schrieb Temlakos:
Everyone:
I'm trying to sort out the rumors I've heard. Among other things: that using a Live Spin CD on an existing Fedora system is not safe, and will destroy all data.
Has that actually happened to anyone here? What is the safest way to upgrade an existing system from F17->F18?
official: fedup reality: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Fedora_17_-.3E_Fedo...
On 01/23/2013 09:18 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 24.01.2013 03:10, schrieb Temlakos:
Everyone:
I'm trying to sort out the rumors I've heard. Among other things: that using a Live Spin CD on an existing Fedora system is not safe, and will destroy all data.
Has that actually happened to anyone here? What is the safest way to upgrade an existing system from F17->F18?
official: fedup reality: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Fedora_17_-.3E_Fedo...
That's what I was after: reality. And reality is that at least fifty percent of all users are fed up with fedup.
Now then: I set myself up as a "sudoer." (That is, I'm a member of group "wheel" and can issue "sudo" commands.)
Why does the method you linked to, recommend using the "su" method, that is, "becoming root" with every single command?
Do those commands not respond to "sudo"?
FInally: I sense that I don't really have all the written commands. Should I use the fedora-upgrade script?
Thanks.
Temlakos
On 01/23/2013 06:50 PM, Temlakos wrote:
Why does the method you linked to, recommend using the "su" method, that is, "becoming root" with every single command?
Somebody wasn't thinking. If I'd have written that, I'd have specified using su first, followed by the rest of the commands. You only need su -c if you only want to run one command as root, not a set of them.
Do those commands not respond to "sudo"?
Yes. If you're going to use su at all, use it correctly; if not, you might as well use sudo.
On 01/23/2013 10:04 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 01/23/2013 06:50 PM, Temlakos wrote:
Why does the method you linked to, recommend using the "su" method, that is, "becoming root" with every single command?
Somebody wasn't thinking. If I'd have written that, I'd have specified using su first, followed by the rest of the commands. You only need su -c if you only want to run one command as root, not a set of them.
Do those commands not respond to "sudo"?
Yes. If you're going to use su at all, use it correctly; if not, you might as well use sudo.
It's a perfectly valid way to list commands that need to be run as root when you're writing a tutorial, without making any assumptions about the skill level of the user.
On 01/23/2013 07:12 PM, jonc wrote:
It's a perfectly valid way to list commands that need to be run as root when you're writing a tutorial, without making any assumptions about the skill level of the user.
I would have seen nothing wrong with using sudo before each command because that's how sudo works. I don't use it myself because I got into the habit of using su long before sudo came with any distro I used, but I see nothing wrong with it being used in a tutorial where, as you point out, you can't know your readers skill level. (I sometimes get the impression that there are Linux users who are aware of su but are afraid to use it, possibly because they started out on Ubuntu. I don't judge them; I just shrug and get on with whatever I'm doing.)
Am 24.01.2013 03:50, schrieb Temlakos:
official: fedup reality: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Fedora_17_-.3E_Fedo...
That's what I was after: reality. And reality is that at least fifty percent of all users are fed up with fedup.
who cares, 90 percent are using windows at all :-)
Now then: I set myself up as a "sudoer." (That is, I'm a member of group "wheel" and can issue "sudo" commands.) Why does the method you linked to, recommend using the "su" method, that is, "becoming root" with every single command?
no idea
i find both dumb "su -" and get a root shell
Do those commands not respond to "sudo"?
Finally: I sense that I don't really have all the written commands
which ones would you not have and why
Am 24.01.2013 04:12, schrieb jonc:
On 01/23/2013 10:04 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 01/23/2013 06:50 PM, Temlakos wrote:
Why does the method you linked to, recommend using the "su" method, that is, "becoming root" with every single command?
Somebody wasn't thinking. If I'd have written that, I'd have specified using su first, followed by the rest of the commands. You only need su -c if you only want to run one command as root, not a set of them.
Do those commands not respond to "sudo"?
Yes. If you're going to use su at all, use it correctly; if not, you might as well use sudo.
It's a perfectly valid way to list commands that need to be run as root when you're writing a tutorial, without making any assumptions about the skill level of the user
and which one would you not run as root in context of a dist-upgrade?
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 12:12 AM, jonc jonc@downfromthetrees.com wrote:
It's a perfectly valid way to list commands that need to be run as root when you're writing a tutorial
*soapbox mode on*
a cut-and-paste list of commands is not a tutorial, it´s an excercise in absurdity. A tutorial would say "run this upgrade script" and point to a download link for such script, along with any needed screenshots of the before and after.
The curse of the linux world are the "cut and paste blobs".
In this case the procedure is a handful of lines long, but I´ve seen blobs spanning a full screen or two. *now I get off my soapbox*
FC
Temlakos temlakos@gmail.com wrote:
Everyone:
I'm trying to sort out the rumors I've heard. Among other things: that using a Live Spin CD on an existing Fedora system is not safe, and will
destroy all data.
Has that actually happened to anyone here?
Just running it no - updating always has a tiny risk.
Updating can albeit very rarely leave a machine in a state that needs a reinstall again - yes. Always make a backup. Thing like a power outage mid upgrade can be messy and hard to clean up.
That really goes for any OS major upgrade.
Alan
On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 21:10:24 -0500 Temlakos temlakos@gmail.com wrote:
Everyone:
I'm trying to sort out the rumors I've heard. Among other things: that using a Live Spin CD on an existing Fedora system is not safe, and will destroy all data.
Live CD\DVD are not designed for upgrading. Good for testing h\w, rescue, min *DE install
What is the safest way to upgrade an existing system from F17->F18?
yum update --releasever=18 from a (level 3 boot) Have done it since F13 > F14 > F15 > F16 > F17 > F18
I test other methods as they come out. The best success I have had is with yum. ymmv
Frank Murphy wrote:
Live CD\DVD are not designed for upgrading. Good for testing h\w, rescue, min *DE install
Is it in fact possible to install Fedora-18 from the Live KDE CD without accepting "automatic partitioning", which as far as I can see is completely undefined? (I have other OSs on my machine, and don't want to over-write them.)
Incidentally, if I do accept "automatic partitioning", will I later be given the opportunity to accept or cancel the operation?
Am 24.01.2013 13:00, schrieb Frank Murphy:
On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 21:10:24 -0500 Temlakos temlakos@gmail.com wrote:
I'm trying to sort out the rumors I've heard. Among other things: that using a Live Spin CD on an existing Fedora system is not safe, and will destroy all data.
Live CD\DVD are not designed for upgrading. Good for testing h\w, rescue, min *DE install
What is the safest way to upgrade an existing system from F17->F18?
yum update --releasever=18 from a (level 3 boot) Have done it since F13 > F14 > F15 > F16 > F17 > F18
PLEASE BE CAREFUL
"yum update --releasever=18" is NOT enough for a clean dist-upgrade so do not post it this way because you lead people follow you
you have SURELY not upgraded to F17 this way because UsrMove
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum and there you have for each jump exact instructions _________________________
"yum update" is NEVER a sane dist-upgrade
you need at least "distro-sync" because if you are doing it without at the wrong moment and have a newer version of a critical package on your system as the version you are upgrading too "distro-sync" will downgrade it while "yum --update" in the best case will not reslove deps and in the worst case leaves a incompatible version on your system and depending what package it is you can have much fun after that _________________________
also you have to follow ALL instructions from the wiki or you are running in danger that yum/rpm or whatever critical component will no longer work
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:43:28 +0100 Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 24.01.2013 13:00, schrieb Frank Murphy:
yum update --releasever=18 from a (level 3 boot) Have done it since F13 > F14 > F15 > F16 > F17 > F18
PLEASE BE CAREFUL
"yum update --releasever=18" is NOT enough for a clean dist-upgrade
I know, it was followed by yum distro-sync.
so do not post it this way because you lead people follow you
you have SURELY not upgraded to F17 this way because UsrMove
That was done by following the special instructions, at the time of F16 > F17 dracut --add usrmove (iirc)
Am 24.01.2013 13:46, schrieb Frank Murphy:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:43:28 +0100 Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 24.01.2013 13:00, schrieb Frank Murphy:
yum update --releasever=18 from a (level 3 boot) Have done it since F13 > F14 > F15 > F16 > F17 > F18
PLEASE BE CAREFUL
"yum update --releasever=18" is NOT enough for a clean dist-upgrade
I know, it was followed by yum distro-sync.
so do not post it this way because you lead people follow you
you have SURELY not upgraded to F17 this way because UsrMove
That was done by following the special instructions, at the time of F16 > F17 dracut --add usrmove (iirc)
so please do not strip out such essential informations
as also you have for 16->17 to deal with the rpmdb and update rpm BEFORE the dist-upgrade
and if you look a little bit closer you see that "yum update" is simply wrong _______________________________________
here again the steps F16->F17 so that anybody can see that there may be IMPORTANT differences for each version
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Fedora_16_-.3E_Fedo...
- remove “ro” (read only) - append “rw” (read write) to let dracut mount your root filesystem writeable - remove “rhgb” (Red Hat graphical boot) to disable the graphical bootsplash - append “rd.info” to get a more verbose output from dracut - append “rd.convertfs” to enable the /usr-move conversion script in dracut - append “enforcing=0” to disable SELinux enforcement
* reboot * let UsrMove do it's work * make sure the UsrMove-params are removed from grub.conf if set there
rm -f /var/lib/rpm/__* rpm --rebuilddb yum --releasever=17 update rpm rm -f /var/lib/rpm/__* rpm --rebuilddb yum --releasever=17 --disableplugin=presto distro-sync fixfiles onboot
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:53:24 +0100 Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
That was done by following the special instructions, at the time of F16 > F17 dracut --add usrmove (iirc)
so please do not strip out such essential informations
Check the OP, F17 > F18 not essential in this case. If someone doesn't want to check tread or archive. I'm not going to lose sleep Harald.
Am 24.01.2013 13:56, schrieb Frank Murphy:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:53:24 +0100 Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
That was done by following the special instructions, at the time of F16 > F17 dracut --add usrmove (iirc)
so please do not strip out such essential informations
Check the OP, F17 > F18 not essential in this case
that is not the point
the point is that "yum update" IS ALWAYS WRONG for a dist-upgrade the point is that ANY yum-commadn alone is NOT ENOUGH
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Fedora_17_-.3E_Fedo...
* yum update yum * yum clean all * yum --releasever=18 --disableplugin=presto distro-sync * Rebuild rpm database: su -c 'rpm --rebuilddb', or rpm -qa will not work due to an upgrade of rpm
have fun with yum and rpm commands if you miss the last step
If someone doesn't want to check tread or archive I'm not going to lose sleep Harald
you should lose sleep if someone is doing it
yum update --releasever=18 from a (level 3 boot) Have done it since F13 > F14 > F15 > F16 > F17 > F18
do you not understand that with this two lines you lead people to damage their system because they are simply bullshit and dangerous? posts like yours are the root cause of other threads to solve troubles
postings like yours are the reason for "dist upgrade with yum makes troubles most of the time" while people like me following instructions, try to understand them and made some hundret upgrades without troubles
so especially in case of SENSITIVE things like a dist-upgrade be specific and 100% correct or do not say anything at all
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:05:25 +0100 Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
that is not the point
it is for this post.
the point is that "yum update" IS ALWAYS WRONG for a dist-upgrade the point is that ANY yum-commadn alone is NOT ENOUGH
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/synopsis
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Fedora_17_-.3E_Fedo...
- yum update yum
- yum clean all
- yum --releasever=18 --disableplugin=presto distro-sync
- Rebuild rpm database: su -c 'rpm --rebuilddb', or rpm -qa will
not work due to an upgrade of rpm
have fun with yum and rpm commands if you miss the last step
never had problems with yum or rpm, oh wait I have a cron for both yumdb and rpm
If someone doesn't want to check tread or archive I'm not going to lose sleep Harald
you should lose sleep if someone is doing it
Nah, most people can read.
yum update --releasever=18 from a (level 3 boot) Have done it since F13 > F14 > F15 > F16 > F17 > F18
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/synopsis
do you not understand that with this two lines you lead people to damage their system because they are simply bullshit and dangerous? posts like yours are the root cause of other threads to solve troubles
I lead people to ask more questions, which is good.
postings like yours are the reason for "dist upgrade with yum makes troubles most of the time" while people like me following instructions, try to understand them and made some hundret upgrades without troubles
--ditto--, bur only a dozen or so.
so especially in case of SENSITIVE things like a dist-upgrade be specific and 100% correct or do not say anything at all
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/synopsis
Waiting on your retort, you always seem to crave the last word. I'll let you to it, I tire of this childhood parry.
On 01/24/2013 04:31 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 24.01.2013 03:50, schrieb Temlakos:
official: fedup reality: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Fedora_17_-.3E_Fedo...
That's what I was after: reality. And reality is that at least fifty percent of all users are fed up with fedup.
who cares, 90 percent are using windows at all :-)
Now then: I set myself up as a "sudoer." (That is, I'm a member of group "wheel" and can issue "sudo" commands.) Why does the method you linked to, recommend using the "su" method, that is, "becoming root" with every single command?
no idea
i find both dumb "su -" and get a root shell
Do those commands not respond to "sudo"?
Finally: I sense that I don't really have all the written commands
which ones would you not have and why
I read the "fedora-update" script. It goes into a lot more detail.
The three commands listed seem to do nothing more than to update one application, that being yum, and then to do post-update cleanup on all applications. Where is the command to install the Fedora 18 versions?
So I think, when I can block out enough time, that I will install and run that "fedora-update" script.
Temlakos
Am 24.01.2013 14:18, schrieb Frank Murphy:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:05:25 +0100 Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
that is not the point
it is for this post.
no
the point is that "yum update" IS ALWAYS WRONG for a dist-upgrade the point is that ANY yum-commadn alone is NOT ENOUGH
childish response
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_Fedora_using_yum#Fedora_17_-.3E_Fedo...
- yum update yum
- yum clean all
- yum --releasever=18 --disableplugin=presto distro-sync
- Rebuild rpm database: su -c 'rpm --rebuilddb', or rpm -qa will
not work due to an upgrade of rpm
have fun with yum and rpm commands if you miss the last step
never had problems with yum or rpm
impossible
oh wait I have a cron for both yumdb and rpm
not true for any other person than you
you should lose sleep if someone is doing it
Nah, most people can read.
that is the problem - they can read wrong instructions from you instead post simply a link to the wiki if you are too lazy to provide correct informations
yum update --releasever=18 from a (level 3 boot) Have done it since F13 > F14 > F15 > F16 > F17 > F18
childish
"yum update" IS WRONG and nothing will make it correct
do you not understand that with this two lines you lead people to damage their system because they are simply bullshit and dangerous? posts like yours are the root cause of other threads to solve troubles
I lead people to ask more questions, which is good
what is the good in leading people to troubles with wrong instructions
Waiting on your retort, you always seem to crave the last word
if people are speaking bullshit and too vain to state their mistake but instead repeat that they did not make one always
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
- remove “ro” (read only)
- append “rw” (read write) to let dracut mount your root filesystem writeable
- remove “rhgb” (Red Hat graphical boot) to disable the graphical bootsplash
- append “rd.info” to get a more verbose output from dracut
- append “rd.convertfs” to enable the /usr-move conversion script in dracut
- append “enforcing=0” to disable SELinux enforcement
- reboot
- let UsrMove do it's work
- make sure the UsrMove-params are removed from grub.conf if set there
rm -f /var/lib/rpm/__* rpm --rebuilddb yum --releasever=17 update rpm rm -f /var/lib/rpm/__* rpm --rebuilddb yum --releasever=17 --disableplugin=presto distro-sync fixfiles onboot
Which is why there should be an upgrade script, not a set of "cut and paste blobs"
FC
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
what is the good in leading people to troubles with wrong instructions
I side with Reindl here. If one posts incomplete instructions, people seeking a solution will quickly conclude "here, someone did it this way and it worked for him..." and proceeded to assume that it is the right approach.
One should never leave out parts of the solution, specially if one claims that "it" is the way to solve the problem.
Sometimes, accepting that one was wrong is the Right Thing ;), I know it´s hard. FC
Am 24.01.2013 14:34, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
- remove “ro” (read only)
- append “rw” (read write) to let dracut mount your root filesystem writeable
- remove “rhgb” (Red Hat graphical boot) to disable the graphical bootsplash
- append “rd.info” to get a more verbose output from dracut
- append “rd.convertfs” to enable the /usr-move conversion script in dracut
- append “enforcing=0” to disable SELinux enforcement
- reboot
- let UsrMove do it's work
- make sure the UsrMove-params are removed from grub.conf if set there
rm -f /var/lib/rpm/__* rpm --rebuilddb yum --releasever=17 update rpm rm -f /var/lib/rpm/__* rpm --rebuilddb yum --releasever=17 --disableplugin=presto distro-sync fixfiles onboot
Which is why there should be an upgrade script, not a set of "cut and paste blobs"
no because the reason for a yum-upgrade is to understand what you are doing the F16->F17 was additionally IMPOSSIBLE to do with a script
the UsrMove had to be done due a reboot and there are two ways
* 1: reboot and add the params in GRUB * 2: edit grub.conf, reboot, edit grub.conf back
1: for a single machine where you sit in front of 2: for a remote machine some hundret kilometers away
have fun with automatic scripts which are assuming what you want to do in which way and why without knowing your environment and impacts
90% of my dist-upgrades are production servers and there will NEVER run any "make me happy script" because it test things, make snapshots of virtual machines and after figure out what is the best way the upgrades are done in a well tested step-by-step with "nearly zero downtime" as final goal
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:24:25 -0500 Temlakos temlakos@gmail.com wrote:
So I think, when I can block out enough time, that I will install and run that "fedora-update" script.
Temlakos
Just be careful of selinux: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2013-January/113429.html
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
have fun with automatic scripts which are assuming what you want to do in which way and why without knowing your environment and impacts
if it´s a sequence of commands that you have to type, that sequence of commands can be saved into a script.
If a reboot is required in the middle of the process, the job can be saved as update-phase1.sh update-phase2.sh or update-phase3.sh and so on.
If there are choices to be made, conditions can be evaluated with an ´if´ and user input requested.
Plus, if preconditions for the upgrade are not met, such conditions can be evaluated and a user message displayed, having the update aborted.
But surely, someone would have to maintain that script, which is why nobody does it... but the knowledge and steps for such script are right here, on this mailing list...
a message saying "if you have selinux enabled, be careful and do this first" is an IF condition in the script,if you think about it...
FC
Am 24.01.2013 17:40, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
have fun with automatic scripts which are assuming what you want to do in which way and why without knowing your environment and impacts
if it´s a sequence of commands that you have to type, that sequence of commands can be saved into a script.
If a reboot is required in the middle of the process, the job can be saved as update-phase1.sh update-phase2.sh or update-phase3.sh and so on.
If there are choices to be made, conditions can be evaluated with an ´if´ and user input requested.
Plus, if preconditions for the upgrade are not met, such conditions can be evaluated and a user message displayed, having the update aborted.
But surely, someone would have to maintain that script, which is why nobody does it... but the knowledge and steps for such script are right here, on this mailing list...
and here is the problem
if this script is not perfect at all it can make huge damage while if you do this commands manually and get a unexpected output you can and will take a look before fire blindly the next one
the yum upgrade is primary for users who care and know what they are doing and try to make this with scripts leads people to use it which are lacking the knowhow to deal with unexpected results
they are finally lost if something goes wrong and keep in mind not everybody has more than one computer which means "search a solution with google or post to the mailing-list" gets very hard and switch from the half broken system to a reboot with a live-cd may be the last action you do which beats the big benefit of a yum upgrade -> verify and check all for you important pieces before reboot
On 01/24/2013 04:43 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
"yum update" is NEVER a sane dist-upgrade
Yes. At the very least, start with "yum upgrade" and hope for the best. N.B.: I've never tried this and don't know how well it works. I only know that there are people who swear that it's the only way they use and that it always works. For them.
El jue, 24-01-2013 a las 12:34 +0000, Timothy Murphy escribió:
Incidentally, if I do accept "automatic partitioning", will I later be given the opportunity to accept or cancel the operation?
-- Timothy Murphy
No after you click apply. Until this moment, you can change of mind.
Hope this helps, Lailah
-
Alan Cox -
Fernando Cassia -
Frank Murphy -
Joe Zeff -
jonc -
Reindl Harald -
Sylvia Sánchez -
Temlakos -
Timothy Murphy