Re: "Default" spin of Fedora
by Kevin Kofler
---- Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> The answer there would be Preupgrade. I have already filed a RFE to hook
> this up with PackageKit.
While Preupgrade is certainly an interesting option for upgrades, I don't think it can replace traditional install media completely. As you're certainly well aware of, not all machines are directly connected to the Internet over a sufficiently fast connection. There are also other reasons to prefer traditional media.
> Considering that all indications are that majority of our users are
> desktop users, I believe that is the correct choice to promote.
* But what desktop? The problem is that there are 2 (even 3 counting your XFCE spin, but unfortunately XFCE is currently not on the DVD either). A very significant percentage of the GNU/Linux user base are KDE users (most polls end up about 50-50 between GNOME and KDE). I also think that given the choice, several users completely new to GNU/Linux will try both and choose KDE. What some people in this thread want to do is hiding the choice and essentially forcing GNOME down the new users' throat. If you put a big "download Fedora here" link in a colored frame pointing to the GNOME spin and a tiny "see your other options here" fine print pointing to the list of spins, do you really think everyone will notice that the KDE spin and the DVD even exist? Hiding their choices doesn't help users at all.
* You're also ignoring the point I raised that software (_desktop_ software!) as popular as OpenOffice.org (!!!) is only available on the DVD (and in the repository, but you're well aware of the fact that many users need everything on their media for technical reasons such as (lack of) Internet connectivity).
Kevin Kofler
15 years, 11 months
Websites guide
by Jonathan Roberts
Hey all,
following my experiences from this afternoon - thanks all for the
help :) - I've put together this quick guide. I think docs will hate me
for it because it doesn't follow the style-guide at all, but it's a
draft and I'll fix that later (I swear!).
The content is accurate, I think, but probably needs re-arranging and
re-phrasing because I'm not making lots of sense tonight.
Thoughts and feedback are welcome, but I think this is a pretty
important document to get right as we try to expand the team :)
Best,
Jon
------------------------------------------------
= Fedora Websites Contributor Guide =
This guide explains how to get access to Fedora's website code, and
provides a brief overview of how to make some simple changes and commit
them.
== Fedora Account System ==
Firstly, in order to make any changes you will need a Fedora account and
to apply to and be sponsored for the web group. Visit
http://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/home/ to sign up for a new
account, or if you already have one to apply for the web group.
To be given membership in the web groupp existing member will have to
sponsor you. We're not likely to sponsor you if we don't know you, so
send an introductory message to the list or visit us at #fedora-websites
on freenode.irc.org. A really great way to get sponsored is to come with
a patch ready-made, and you can do this by checking out a copy of
Fedora's websites anonymously, which we'll cover next.
== Checking Out Fedora's Websites ==
The Websites Team uses the git revision control system to store all our
code, and it is stored on fedorahosted.org.
To get a local git repository set-up, the first thing you'll need to do
is install git:
yum install git
Next, you'll want to check out a copy of the code. You can do this
either annonymously or as a registered user once you have been sponsored
in the web team and set up your ssh key.
To check out the code anonymously use this command:
git clone http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-web.git
To do this using ssh use this command:
git clone ssh://<fas-username>@git.fedorahosted.org/git-fedora-web.git
Once this is done, you'll have a fedora-web folder containing all of the
files that create Fedora's websites.
After the initial clone, you'll be able to use git pull instead, which
will only retrieve changes that have been made since you last updated.
== fedora-web Directory Structure ==
The top-level fedora-web folder contains individual folders for each of
the sites that the Fedora Websites team looks after in this manner. For
now, we'll simply examine the fedoraproject.org folder, where the files
for the main project site are kept.
In this folder, you'll find 10 new files and folders:
build: contains all of the bits that compile Fedora's websites together.
For most day to day changes you can safely ignore this.
ChangeLog: is a changelog. You should update this file everytime you
make a change to the website so everyone knows what you did.
data: contains all of the content for the website, including template
files, css, images etc.
httpd: is used by the Makefile to allow you to test your branch of the
website locally.
mediawiki: is related to Fedora's wiki, and for the purposes of this
guide can be ignored.
po: is used by l10n for translations etc. Again, for the purposes of
this guide can be ignored.
README: contains useful information about the build scripts and how the
websites work.
static: contains all the images, css and javascript that the websites
use.
== Updating An Existing Page Or Creating a New One ==
To make a change to an existing page, or update a new one you're going
to need to edit the content under the data/ directory.
If the change you want to make is to a common element on multiple pages,
such as the header, footer or sidebar, then use the files in the
template folder. You'll notice that the majority of the code is basic
HTML, but there are a few strange pieces of markup. The most obvious is
$Markup(_(' that proceeds any text string. Provided you preceed any text
strings that require translation with this, and close these strings with
'))} then you'll have no problems. If you'd like more information about
this code, I'd suggest reading the Genshi documentation.
If the change you want is to an individual page, then you'll need the
files in the content folder. The same markup rules as above apply, and
besides that you can edit these as you normally would. If you'd like to
create a new page, I suggest using an existing file as a template and
renaming it to the title of the page you want to create.
== Reviewing Your Changes ==
To see what your changes look like live, change to the fedoraproject.org
root directory and run the make command. This will build the website
from the template files. It can take the <lang> option, which will
create output only in the specified language rather than all the
available options.
The following dependencies are required for make to complete
succesfully:
Babel
python-babel
python-feedparser
Once the make is finished, you can run make test and point your web
browser at localhost:5000 to see your local version of the Fedora
website. Run make stoptest when you are finished to stop httpd.
== Commiting Your Changes ==
To commit your changes back to your local git repository, you'll need to
run the following commands:
git-add <name_of_changed_file>
for each of the files you've changed
git-commit
for this command, you'll need to provie a comment describing your
changes.
Once you've done this, you'll need to put your git repository in a
publically accessible place so that others can review your changes. Your
fedorapeople.org space is perfect for this. The command below will make
this work:
scp -r fedora-web <fas-username>@fedorapeople.org
Now, let people know about your repository on list or in IRC and ask
them to review your changes for inclusion in the live branch.
15 years, 11 months
"Default" spin of Fedora
by Kevin Kofler
The redesign mockups by Juan Camilo Prada
(http://juankprada.livejournal.com/7682.html) raised 2 important issues for
which this is apparently the right venue for discussion, so let me state
them:
1. Do we really want to highlight a "default" spin on the front page,
effectively hiding the others? While I realize the niceness of being able to
download Fedora in one click from the fedoraproject.org front page, this
means many users (in particular, exactly those targeted by this convenience
measure) will miss the fact that the others even exist. We already do a very
bad job of advertising all the possible ways of installing Fedora (e.g.
network and HDD installs), hiding 2 of the 3 main ways to install Fedora
(DVD, GNOME "Desktop" Live CD, KDE Live CD) will only make this worse. :-(
2. Assuming the answer to "1." is "yes", I think the installer DVD would be a
much better default than the GNOME-only Desktop Live spin, for several
reasons:
* Live CDs cannot be used to upgrade existing Fedora installations (without
reinstalling from scratch, which is often not possible without deleting user
data), the installer DVD can. Attempts to upgrade from a live CD can even
lead to data loss (if the user doesn't realize this fact), IIRC this has
already happened at least once to someone on the mailing lists.
* As the name says, Desktop Live is only targeted at the desktop, whereas the
DVD also contains some server and development packages.
* The installer DVD also contains popular desktop applications such as
OpenOffice.org which are not included on the live images for space reasons.
* Desktop Live is GNOME-only, the installer DVD contains both GNOME and KDE.
That's why there are 2 main live CD images, the DVD is a nice compromise,
whereas defaulting to a GNOME-only spin really sends a message that we don't
care about KDE. :-( As one of the KDE maintainers in Fedora, I consider it
really unacceptable that my work gets hidden under the carpet that way, while
a GNOME-only spin gets presented on the silver plate. There are far more
Fedora KDE users than some of you would expect, do you really want to
alienate that huge part of your user base? (Now, I also think the installer
DVD should make it easier to select KDE, not just through the custom package
selection for advanced users, but that's off topic for this list, and the
point still stands that with the DVD, at least you _can_ select KDE.)
* Most computers these days have DVD drives.
* The installer DVD is the actual "Fedora" spin. :-) (And considering all of
the above points, I'm definitely not suggesting changing that.)
By the way, while only partly related, there's one more thing which I think
could really be improved: it should be made more clear that the Desktop spin
is GNOME-based (i.e. includes GNOME as its only desktop environment). Right
now, only the GNOME foot in the icon is a subtle hint at that and can be
easily missed. This is a disservice to users of KDE (and XFCE, too) who may
be misled into downloading a spin which does not contain the desktop
environment they intend to run. Some possible solutions (while still keeping
the "Desktop Live" name, which as I understand it is set in stone, even if I
disagree with it for the same reasons):
* changing the heading to "Desktop Live (GNOME-based)"
* keeping just "Desktop Live" as the heading, but adding a one-sentence
description for every spin (as in Juank's mockup) and mentioning GNOME in the
description of "Desktop Live"
I'm open to other solutions as long as they make the word "GNOME" appear in a
noticeable way next to the "Desktop Live" spin.
Kevin Kofler
15 years, 11 months
Re: "Default" spin of Fedora
by Juan Camilo Prada
On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 23:34 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Juan Camilo Prada <juankprada(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And I disagree... Even if fedora is not for newbies and as stated by
> > paul its for enthusiast, we dont have to make it harder for new users
> > who want to join us to get the media just to start knowing what fedora
> > is all about.... by providing an easy to use install media we can make
>
> I don't want to speak for Paul, but I believe that he _explicitly_
> said that enthusiast != any particular skill level. So yes, I agree
> with you - making Fedora more accessible by people new to Linux should
> be a priority. And the current get-fedora page is an epic failure of
> that, come to think of it. I've already commented this morning one of
> the ways.
>
> What I wasn't thinking of this morning was the dazzling array of
> choices I was presented with on that page. While to me, a very
> technical person, it looks friendly and well organized, I just tooks a
> step back to view it through the eyes of a non-geek. I'd venture to
> guess that non-technical users aren't going to know what Jigdo is, yet
> it's presented there with no explanation. Same, to a lesser extent,
> with BitTorrent. i386, x86_64, PowerPC? HELP! I'm drowning in options
> and don't know which one to choose!
>
> I also agree with Kevin that we don't want to push users to any
> specific spin, though that may be unavoidable for the sake of
> simplicity. I think that Paul had at one point a nice mockup of a
> get-fedora page that used JavaScript to guide the user through a
> "interview" process and present appropriate media for them to
> download. A choice of desktop either was or could easily be part of
> that process. Not sure what ever became of that, if anything.
That process was the first proposal Craig and I showed to the ml some
time ago with some fancy animations that hide some info as the user
progress through the workflow and only presenting the current "step".
This other and somehow new proposal at
http://jprada.fedorapeople.org/out/en/get-fedora aims at the same target
trying to provide the user with some simple instructions but without the
fancy animations, in order to get the media. The real difference between
this one and the old one is that now it only shows information about the
official spins (Desktop Live Media, KDE LiveCD and installation
DVD ...?...) while leaving other spins to be downloaded from their
coming spins.fedoraproject.org site. If you think it needs some
improvements please comment them here so we can discuss about it :)
--
Juan Camilo Prada <jprada(a)fedoraproject.org>
15 years, 11 months
Re: "Default" spin of Fedora
by Juan Camilo Prada
On Wed, 2008-06-11 at 16:30 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Juan Camilo Prada <juankprada(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > By selecting one single media as the official one we are not excluding
> > anyone from using fedora... if we happen to choose the more user
> > friendly media (probably Desktop Live Media imo) new users will find it
> > very easy to use fedora, and most experienced users... well they already
> > know what they want so they will head to get-fedora section and download
> > the media :)
>
> I think Fedora + "user friendly" is a lost cause. Making decisions
> based on that is a wasted effort.
> Furthermore, I see no evidence to believe that "desktop live media" is
> any more user friendly than "* media"
Please be sure to reply to the list and not to my email :)
And I disagree... Even if fedora is not for newbies and as stated by
paul its for enthusiast, we dont have to make it harder for new users
who want to join us to get the media just to start knowing what fedora
is all about.... by providing an easy to use install media we can make
fedora easy for new enthusiast to join (again i still think Desktop live
media is the best choice... but that doesnt mean im right)
The thing is not about which one we will be supporting or not... again..
all other spins will still be shown and all of them will be available to
download from get-fedora section or from spins.fedoraproject.org
(depending on the media). By having a one click download button at the
front page we are only suggesting... "hey this is the easiest way to get
fedora... click here ant try it out" AND NOT "this IS fedora and any
other spin/version wont be supported anymore".
Experienced users already know what they want, and so it will be very
easy for them to just click on a "more options here..." link or click in
the "get-fedora" link on the navigation bar to the left to get the media
--
Juan Camilo Prada <jprada(a)fedoraproject.org>
15 years, 11 months
Fwd: "Default" spin of Fedora
by Arthur Pemberton
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Arthur Pemberton <pemboa(a)gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: "Default" spin of Fedora
To: Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas.mailhot(a)laposte.net>
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Nicolas Mailhot
<nicolas.mailhot(a)laposte.net> wrote:
> Basil Mohamed Gohar a écrit
>>
>> This is a bit of a challenge, because it seems that the official line for
>> the target audience for Fedora is the "FOSS enthusiast", which might limit
>> how "casual" we would expect our users to actually be. Paul emphasized that
>> this doesn't mean we expect someone to be a kernel hacker, but I think the
>> other extreme might also be excluded.
>
> So what? Rome was not built in one day. Fedora won't be grandma-ready
> tomorrow, but there's no reason to make trying Fedora harder than it needs
> to be. Otherwise we should just kill this fluffy web stuff and revert to
> publishing some files on a raw ftp server somewhere.
>
> We don't want to follow Ubuntu and accept proprietary blobs or old software
> versions just to appease impatient end-users. However that does not mean we
> don't want to make the distribution as streamlined as possible within the
> chosen Fedora parameters.
Streamlined at what expense? Because removing all references to KDE et
cetera will definitely be more streamlined.
Simply label things clearly. If someone cannot handle reading a label
and making a decision, they aren't going to have any better experience
with Fedora.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
15 years, 11 months
Board elections
by Paul W. Frields
The following candidates have been nominated for the Board elections
that run from 0001 UTC 2008-06-13 until 2359 UTC 2008-06-22.
Jon Stanley (jds2001)
Tom Callaway (spot)
Josh Boyer (jwb)
Jonathan Roberts (JonRob)
Seth Vidal (skvidal)
Dennis Gilmore (irc:dgilmore fas:ausil)
Jef Spaleta (irc:spoleeba fas:jspaleta)
Jesse Keating (irc:f13 fas:jkeating)
Nigel, please enter these in the voting system as the nominees, and set
the voting time as shown above.
Thanks for all your help in revamping our voting system, which hundreds
of community members (maybe thousands? I can dream) will hopefully use
to elect some of the next year's Fedora leadership.
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
15 years, 11 months
Fedora 9 Installation Guide
by Constantin Cabiniuc
Hello,
Could you please provide a PDF version of "Fedora 9 Installation Guide" ? I
downloaded the offline version but a PDF would help me a lot if I want to go
print it at a local printing service. A PDF is one of the best solutions to
go for portability. I just take the file, give it to them, and print it in a
few seconds. Those offlines are going to give them some headakes :)
Thank You,
Constantin Cabiniuc
15 years, 11 months
get-fedora idea - include version
by Jon Stanley
>From the last webmaster@ e-mail, I looked at http://get.fp.o and saw
that there was no mention that I'd be downloading Fedora 9 if I
clicked on one of those links. Maybe instead of 'Fedora, For You', it
could be modified to 'Fedora 9, For You' or something of the nature
Thoughts? Web design is not my strong suit, so
comments/suggestions/flames welcome! :)
15 years, 11 months
