[e-mail]

[Ricky Zhou]

Hi!

As mentioned in
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-announce/2007-July/msg00003....,
the Infrastructure team has recently switched ticketing systems from
OTRS to Trac (previously, webmaster(a)fedoraproject.org went to OTRS),
which means that we need a new place for website requests.  Right now, a
FAS account is required to submit a ticket to Trac, so this may not fit
our needs exactly.  Does anybody have any suggestions for how we should
handle website tickets (hopefully somewhat spam-resistant, unlike OTRS)?

Thanks,
Ricky

[Thomas Chung]

On 7/12/07, Ricky Zhou <ricky(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Hi!
>
>  As mentioned in
>  https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-announce/2007-July/msg00003....,
>  the Infrastructure team has recently switched ticketing systems from
>  OTRS to Trac (previously, webmaster(a)fedoraproject.org went to OTRS),
>  which means that we need a new place for website requests.  Right now, a
>  FAS account is required to submit a ticket to Trac, so this may not fit
>  our needs exactly.  Does anybody have any suggestions for how we should
>  handle website tickets (hopefully somewhat spam-resistant, unlike OTRS)?
>
>  Thanks,
>  Ricky 
Looking aliases in lockbox, webmaster is still pointing to otrs.
I'm not sure how and where to point to with new ticketing system.
Mike?

# OTRS - ticketing system
voting: otrs
webmaster: otrs
tickets: otrs
logo: otrs

-- 
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Mike McGrath]

Thomas Chung wrote:
>  On 7/12/07, Ricky Zhou <ricky(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > As mentioned in
> > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-announce/2007-July/msg00003...., 
> >
> > the Infrastructure team has recently switched ticketing systems from
> > OTRS to Trac (previously, webmaster(a)fedoraproject.org went to OTRS),
> > which means that we need a new place for website requests.  Right now, a
> > FAS account is required to submit a ticket to Trac, so this may not fit
> > our needs exactly.  Does anybody have any suggestions for how we should
> > handle website tickets (hopefully somewhat spam-resistant, unlike OTRS)?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ricky
>
>  Looking aliases in lockbox, webmaster is still pointing to otrs.
>  I'm not sure how and where to point to with new ticketing system.
>  Mike?
>
>  # OTRS - ticketing system
>  voting: otrs
>  webmaster: otrs
>  tickets: otrs
>  logo: otrs
>  
Thats what we're trying to decide.  In general I'd prefer not to have 
the webmaster(a)fp.org go to any ticketing system.  One of the reasons the 
previous system failed was because of the spam to actual ratio.  We've 
talked about having all webmaster(a)fp.o mail bounce with a message saying 
to use a ticketing system.  But even then it requires an FAS account. 

There actually is a way to allow trac to do anonymous ticket creation.  
Is anyone here interested in having webmaster(a)fp.o go to them?

    -Mike

[Thomas Chung]

On 7/12/07, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Thats what we're trying to decide.  In general I'd prefer not
> to have
>  the webmaster(a)fp.org go to any ticketing system.  One of the reasons the
>  previous system failed was because of the spam to actual ratio.  We've
>  talked about having all webmaster(a)fp.o mail bounce with a message saying
>  to use a ticketing system.  But even then it requires an FAS account.
>
>  There actually is a way to allow trac to do anonymous ticket creation.
>  Is anyone here interested in having webmaster(a)fp.o go to them?
>
>      -Mike 
If I remember correct, we had it forwarded to web-members(a)fp.o or
fedora-websites(a)fp.o in the past. Do we want to do this way again?
Or do we want a single point of contact to receive the email and
forward it to appropriate group?  I guess I could volunteer for the
job. :)

Regards,
-- 
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Mike McGrath]

Thomas Chung wrote:
>  On 7/12/07, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
> > Thats what we're trying to decide.  In general I'd prefer not to have
> > the webmaster(a)fp.org go to any ticketing system.  One of the reasons the
> > previous system failed was because of the spam to actual ratio.  We've
> > talked about having all webmaster(a)fp.o mail bounce with a message saying
> > to use a ticketing system.  But even then it requires an FAS account.
> >
> > There actually is a way to allow trac to do anonymous ticket creation.
> > Is anyone here interested in having webmaster(a)fp.o go to them?
> >
> >     -Mike
>
>  If I remember correct, we had it forwarded to web-members(a)fp.o or
>  fedora-websites(a)fp.o in the past. Do we want to do this way again?
>  Or do we want a single point of contact to receive the email and
>  forward it to appropriate group?  I guess I could volunteer for the
>  job. :) 
I'd love to send it back that way again then.  Ricky, others, what do 
you think?

    -Mike

[Mike McGrath]

Mike McGrath wrote:
>  Thats what we're trying to decide.  In general I'd prefer not
> to have 
>  the webmaster(a)fp.org go to any ticketing system.  One of the reasons 
>  the previous system failed was because of the spam to actual ratio.  
>  We've talked about having all webmaster(a)fp.o mail bounce with a 
>  message saying to use a ticketing system.  But even then it requires 
>  an FAS account.
>  There actually is a way to allow trac to do anonymous ticket 
>  creation.  Is anyone here interested in having webmaster(a)fp.o go to them? 
Ricky, do you happen to know how many actual requests came through there 
in say a month?  Perhaps a bounce with notification to our ticketing 
system is the best thing.  Those without an account can email 
admin(a)fp.o.  Its not the best solution but I think it would work.

    -Mike

[Ricky Zhou]

Mike McGrath wrote:
>  Ricky, do you happen to know how many actual requests came through
> there
>  in say a month?  Perhaps a bounce with notification to our ticketing
>  system is the best thing.  Those without an account can email
>  admin(a)fp.o.  Its not the best solution but I think it would work. 
Hmm, you said
that there was a way to do anonymous ticket creation- that
(along with the email bounce) would probably prevent most spam.  From
6/11 to 7/12, we've gotten around 12 requests that were actually about
the website (including duplicates)- the other 40 or so were
spam/irrelevant.  Based on these numbers, I don't think it'd hurt too
much to forward these few people to a anonymous ticket page (although
the process might be a bit complicated for the passer-by wanting to
quickly notify us of a problem).

Some other options are:
 * Moderated mailing list (to kill spam- this would require moderators
and some sort of policy, but would still make spam/off-topic mail much
easier to delete than with OTRS).
 * E-mail to web-members/a specific group of people - the amount of spam
might discourage people from joining, and I don't see any way for a
single person to "take" a request (so that others know), so this might
be hard to manage.

Any opinions or caveats to these options?

Thanks,
Ricky

[Thomas Chung]

On 7/12/07, Ricky Zhou <ricky(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>   * E-mail to web-members/a specific group of people - the amount of
> spam
>  might discourage people from joining, and I don't see any way for a
>  single person to "take" a request (so that others know), so this might
>  be hard to manage. 
I think I like this idea better.  We could even create webmaster group
in FAS if we don't want the mail sent to web-members(a)fp.o

We could announce this new webmaster group in fedora-websites-list and
invite them to become one of many webmasters. :)

Regards,
-- 
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Matthias Clasen]

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Thomas Chung wrote:
>  I think I like this idea better.  We could even create webmaster
> group
>  in FAS if we don't want the mail sent to web-members(a)fp.o 
I still don't see
how a group of people could manage this easily.  Say
somebody sends in a request- how do any of the other members know
whether it's been handled already/whether to send a reply?  This is why
I like the mailing list (hopefully with spam filters).

Thanks,
Ricky
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[Thomas Chung]

On 7/12/07, Ricky Zhou <ricky.zhou(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>  Thomas Chung wrote:
>  > I think I like this idea better.  We could even create webmaster group
>  > in FAS if we don't want the mail sent to web-members(a)fp.o
>  I still don't see how a group of people could manage this easily.  Say
>  somebody sends in a request- how do any of the other members know
>  whether it's been handled already/whether to send a reply?  This is why
>  I like the mailing list (hopefully with spam filters). 
Well, in my opinion, a small group of dedicated webmasters can answer
"webmaster" emails with cc to webmaster(a)fp.o on every emails.

I think this is better than spamming 180 members in
fedora-website-list or 53 members in web group in FSA.

Regards,
-- 
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Matthias Clasen]

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Hash: SHA1

Thomas Chung wrote:
>  Well, in my opinion, a small group of dedicated webmasters can
> answer
>  "webmaster" emails with cc to webmaster(a)fp.o on every emails.
>  
>  I think this is better than spamming 180 members in
>  fedora-website-list or 53 members in web group in FSA. 
And the submitter will be
explicitly told to reply to all on every
e-mail (or the webmaster will have to forward them all)?  How about if
we used a separate webmaster mailing list?  This would solve the problem
of spamming all members of fedora-website-list/web and allow the
convenience and openness of group-wide knowledge of all requests, plus
moderation (since *some* spam will still likely get through).

How does that idea sound?

Thanks,
Ricky
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[Mike McGrath]

Ricky Zhou wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Thomas Chung wrote:
>    
> > Well, in my opinion, a small group of dedicated webmasters can answer
> > "webmaster" emails with cc to webmaster(a)fp.o on every emails.
> >
> > I think this is better than spamming 180 members in
> > fedora-website-list or 53 members in web group in FSA.
> >     
>  And the submitter will be explicitly told to reply to all on every
>  e-mail (or the webmaster will have to forward them all)?  How about if
>  we used a separate webmaster mailing list?  This would solve the problem
>  of spamming all members of fedora-website-list/web and allow the
>  convenience and openness of group-wide knowledge of all requests, plus
>  moderation (since *some* spam will still likely get through).
>
>  How does that idea sound?
>     
My only concern with that is security stuff and I'm not sure how the 
archives would help.  We actually do have a precedent in place in that 
accounts(a)fp.o and admin(a)fp.o work that way.  If we're going to have a 
separate mailing list, why not just forward webmaster(a)fedoraproject.org 
to fedora-websites-list?  That could work (if we got the spam part under 
control)

    -Mike

[Matthias Clasen]

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Mike McGrath wrote:
>  My only concern with that is security stuff and I'm not sure how
> the
>  archives would help.  We actually do have a precedent in place in that
>  accounts(a)fp.o and admin(a)fp.o work that way.  If we're going to have a
>  separate mailing list, why not just forward webmaster(a)fedoraproject.org
>  to fedora-websites-list?  That could work (if we got the spam part under
>  control) 
Well, Thomas mentioned that many of the members of fedora-websites-list
might not be interested in outside requests/possible spam, but given the
very few on-topic requests that we get, I don't think most people would
mind receiving them if we could have very effective spam blocking
(they'd be on-topic/relevant to the list anyway).  This would also make
it easier for members to become involved/help out without going through
the process of joining a specific group.

Hopefully, there shouldn't be any security issues with a mailing list
solution (I think archives are nice to at least keep track of what
issues have been submitted already).

Thanks,
Ricky
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[Thomas Chung]

On 7/12/07, Ricky Zhou <ricky.zhou(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Well, Thomas mentioned that many of the members of
> fedora-websites-list
>  might not be interested in outside requests/possible spam, but given the
>  very few on-topic requests that we get, I don't think most people would
>  mind receiving them if we could have very effective spam blocking
>  (they'd be on-topic/relevant to the list anyway).  This would also make
>  it easier for members to become involved/help out without going through
>  the process of joining a specific group.
>
>  Hopefully, there shouldn't be any security issues with a mailing list
>  solution (I think archives are nice to at least keep track of what
>  issues have been submitted already).
>
>  Thanks,
>  Ricky 
Ok, let's do it. Let's forward webmaster(a)fp.o to fedora-websites-list.

Mike, do you want me update aliases in lockbox and make necessary
changes in fedora-websites-list?

Regards
-- 
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Mike McGrath]

Thomas Chung wrote:
>  On 7/12/07, Ricky Zhou <ricky.zhou(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > Well, Thomas mentioned that many of the members of fedora-websites-list
> > might not be interested in outside requests/possible spam, but given the
> > very few on-topic requests that we get, I don't think most people would
> > mind receiving them if we could have very effective spam blocking
> > (they'd be on-topic/relevant to the list anyway).  This would also make
> > it easier for members to become involved/help out without going through
> > the process of joining a specific group.
> >
> > Hopefully, there shouldn't be any security issues with a mailing list
> > solution (I think archives are nice to at least keep track of what
> > issues have been submitted already).
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ricky
>
>  Ok, let's do it. Let's forward webmaster(a)fp.o to fedora-websites-list.
>
>  Mike, do you want me update aliases in lockbox and make necessary
>  changes in fedora-websites-list? 
Sounds good, if you get a moment hook ricky up with access to the 
websites list as well.  I'll try to get some spam filtering on asap.

    -Mike

[Thomas Chung]

On 7/12/07, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Sounds good, if you get a moment hook ricky up with access to the
>  websites list as well.  I'll try to get some spam filtering on asap. 
Ok, I just updated aliases as following:
webmaster: fedora-websites-list(a)redhat.com

Also, I updated fedora-websites-list to accept email from
webmaster(a)fedoraproject.org
(Privacy options > Recipient filters > Alias names (regexps) which
qualify as explicit to or cc destination names for this list.)

Let's see if this works within an hour or so.

Regards,
-- 
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Thomas Chung]

On 7/12/07, Ricky Zhou <ricky.zhou(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  And the submitter will be explicitly told to reply to all on every
>  e-mail (or the webmaster will have to forward them all)?  How about if
>  we used a separate webmaster mailing list?  This would solve the problem
>  of spamming all members of fedora-website-list/web and allow the
>  convenience and openness of group-wide knowledge of all requests, plus
>  moderation (since *some* spam will still likely get through).
>
>  How does that idea sound?
>
>  Thanks,
>  Ricky 
Well, it seems we're in agreement in a way. :)

A. Create webmaster group in FSA
B. Create webmaster list in Mailman

Why don't we let Infrastructure team decides which is easier to maintain.
Regards,
-- 
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Mike McGrath]

Ricky Zhou wrote:
>  Hmm, you said that there was a way to do anonymous ticket creation-
> that
>  (along with the email bounce) would probably prevent most spam.  From
>  6/11 to 7/12, we've gotten around 12 requests that were actually about
>  the website (including duplicates)- the other 40 or so were
>  spam/irrelevant.  Based on these numbers, I don't think it'd hurt too
>  much to forward these few people to a anonymous ticket page (although
>  the process might be a bit complicated for the passer-by wanting to
>  quickly notify us of a problem).
>
>  Some other options are:
>   * Moderated mailing list (to kill spam- this would require moderators
>  and some sort of policy, but would still make spam/off-topic mail much
>  easier to delete than with OTRS).
>   * E-mail to web-members/a specific group of people - the amount of spam
>  might discourage people from joining, and I don't see any way for a
>  single person to "take" a request (so that others know), so this might
>  be hard to manage.
>
>  Any opinions or caveats to these options?
>     
I may be able to implement some spam functions for webmaster(a)fp.o if we 
sent it to web-members(a)fp.o.  Would you guys be willing to try that?

    -Mike

[Thomas Chung]

On 7/12/07, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  I may be able to implement some spam functions for webmaster(a)fp.o if
> we
>  sent it to web-members(a)fp.o.  Would you guys be willing to try that? 
Yes, we definitely need spam functions.
So, What do you think of this new group idea?
webmaster(a)fp.o --> webmaster-members(a)fp.o

-- 
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Karsten Wade]

On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 17:24 -0400, Ricky Zhou wrote:
>  Hi!
>  
>  As mentioned in
>  https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-announce/2007-July/msg00003....,
>  the Infrastructure team has recently switched ticketing systems from
>  OTRS to Trac (previously, webmaster(a)fedoraproject.org went to OTRS),
>  which means that we need a new place for website requests.  Right now, a
>  FAS account is required to submit a ticket to Trac, so this may not fit
>  our needs exactly.  Does anybody have any suggestions for how we should
>  handle website tickets (hopefully somewhat spam-resistant, unlike OTRS)? 
This thread figured out what to do with webmaster emails.  That is very
different from a website ticket system.

We still need a ticketing system so amongst ourselves we can track who
is doing what, how, when, and why.

Trac +1 

- Karsten
-- 
   Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

[Thomas Chung]

On 7/13/07, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  This thread figured out what to do with webmaster emails.  That is
> very
>  different from a website ticket system.
>
>  We still need a ticketing system so amongst ourselves we can track who
>  is doing what, how, when, and why.
>
>  Trac +1 
Mike,
I'm still having issue forwarding webmaster(a)fp.o to fedora-websites-list.
Could you please take a look at the issue?
Alternatively, we could use anonymous ticketing using Trac.
Regards,
-- 
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Thomas Chung]

On 7/13/07, Thomas Chung <tchung(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Mike,
>  I'm still having issue forwarding webmaster(a)fp.o to fedora-websites-list.
>  Could you please take a look at the issue?
>  Alternatively, we could use anonymous ticketing using Trac. 
Mike,
I just created a ticket in Trac for this issue.
https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/40

The system automatically assigned the ticket to ricky but feel free to
assign it to yourself. :)
Regards,
-- 
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung