pt_BR translations on the wiki, and more

[Hugo Cisneiros]

Hi people,

I'm sending this e-mail with 2 purposes: one is to announce that I began 
  the wiki translation to pt_BR, and the second is to discuss another 
issue. Pasting a yesterday's IRC log here about this issues:

=====
Feb 08 11:45:17 Eitch	hi, is there any way to use the fedora wiki or 
some websites to post content on another language? i was going to set up 
a site but i thought: "instead of creating another site, i could unify 
using the already functional sites"
Feb 08 17:23:06 quaid	Eitch: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Languages
Feb 08 17:23:32 quaid	that's about translation, but I think you can 
figure out how to split off a per-language namespace from that
Feb 08 17:23:50 quaid	i.e., wiki/pt_BR/NewPages
=====

Bringing this discussion to the mailing list... :) Is putting 
independent content about Fedora on the wiki healthy? Or only the 
translations? What is the wiki policy for this?

-- 
[]'s
Eitch

http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/
"Talk is cheap. Show me the code." - Linus Torvalds

[Thomas Chung]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 12:09:52 -0200, Hugo Cisneiros wrote
>  Hi people,
>  
>  I'm sending this e-mail with 2 purposes: one is to announce that I began 
>    the wiki translation to pt_BR, and the second is to discuss another 
>  issue. Pasting a yesterday's IRC log here about this issues:
>  
>  =====
>  Feb 08 11:45:17 Eitch	hi, is there any way to use the fedora wiki or 
>  some websites to post content on another language? i was going to set up 
>  a site but i thought: "instead of creating another site, i could unify 
>  using the already functional sites"
>  Feb 08 17:23:06 quaid	Eitch: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Languages
>  Feb 08 17:23:32 quaid	that's about translation, but I think you can 
>  figure out how to split off a per-language namespace from that
>  Feb 08 17:23:50 quaid	i.e., wiki/pt_BR/NewPages
>  =====
>  
>  Bringing this discussion to the mailing list... :) Is putting 
>  independent content about Fedora on the wiki healthy? Or only the 
>  translations? What is the wiki policy for this?
>  
>  -- 
>  []'s
>  Eitch 
Hi Hugo, 

We need *translation* not an *independent* content on different languages on our
official fedora websites - http://fedora.redhat.com and http://fedoraproject.org

If you need to be put *independent* content, then I would suggest to setup *independent*
web site with Fedora Logo upon approval. 

See Logo guideline and policy at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Logo

Regards,
--
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Hugo Cisneiros]

Thomas Chung wrote:
>  Hi Hugo,  
Hi,

>  We need *translation* not an *independent* content on different
> languages on our
>  official fedora websites - http://fedora.redhat.com and http://fedoraproject.org
>  
>  If you need to be put *independent* content, then I would suggest to setup *independent*
>  web site with Fedora Logo upon approval.  
This is the question to discuss, why not put some new content in other 
languages? After analyizing the content, one could translate to english 
too. That's the same method, but in another order. Instead of English -> 
OtherLanguage, it is OtherLanguage -> English.

In the past I saw many people fighting for ownage of "affiliated" sites 
in various projects. So I began to think: why not agregate the content 
in the already functional oficial sites, where everyone could help and 
some people already have the know-how to administrate and mantain, 
instead of creating another one filiated, and reinvent the wheel? After 
all, it's *Fedora content*.

Just a thought.

>  Regards,
>  --
>  Thomas Chung
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung 
-- 
[]'s
Eitch

http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/
"Talk is cheap. Show me the code." - Linus Torvalds

[Karsten Wade]

On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 15:38 -0200, Hugo Cisneiros wrote:
>  Thomas Chung wrote:
>  > Hi Hugo, 
>  
>  Hi,
>  
>  > We need *translation* not an *independent* content on different languages on our
>  > official fedora websites - http://fedora.redhat.com and http://fedoraproject.org
>  > 
>  > If you need to be put *independent* content, then I would suggest to setup
> *independent*
>  > web site with Fedora Logo upon approval. 
>  
>  This is the question to discuss, why not put some new content in other 
>  languages? After analyizing the content, one could translate to english 
>  too. That's the same method, but in another order. Instead of English -> 
>  OtherLanguage, it is OtherLanguage -> English. 
I definitely want to see this with other documentation.  It should not
matter what the source language is, as long as we have the ability to
translate it.

However, the Wiki is special, and I'm glad you brought this here to
discuss.

For every language that is adding original, language specific content,
we need >1 editors who watch that content.  With the formal
documentation, we can get editors from each language to approve the
content for publishing.  That process needs to be in place for each non-
English language for the Wiki, just like it is for the English portions.

For example:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SexCitationsTecken

Bob noticed this one last week from a search for "java".  Investigation
shows that i) it does not have an author stamp at the bottom, ii) it's
last edited was a long time ago, and iii) the term SexCitationsTecken
gets many google hits across various Wikis.  We can therefore conclude
that it must be a Wiki-specific piece of information.

But in English, it looks like a pr0n Website defacement.

I propose that each language that wants to put original content on any
formal Fedora site, regardless of Wiki, XML, etc., needs to have the
following:

* 2 or more editors who watch all contributions, in the native language
  - we are currently at greater risk for unwanted mentions of how to
install mp3 players, but over time we'll attract defacements

* 1 or more translators who carry the content over to the English side
of the Wiki.

* Native language contributors who allow the above people to do their
jobs.

The editors/translators need to have established trust with the Fedora
project, to know that they understand what and why content is forbidden,
and that they will be accountable.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
Content Services                          Fedora Documentation Project
http://www.redhat.com/docs   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject

[Thomas Chung]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:45:51 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote
>  For every language that is adding original, language specific
> content,
>  we need >1 editors who watch that content.  With the formal
>  documentation, we can get editors from each language to approve the
>  content for publishing.  That process needs to be in place for each non-
>  English language for the Wiki, just like it is for the English portions. 
Yes, I agree and this is why we need CMS with approval system real soon.

--
Thomas Chung
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung

[Hugo Cisneiros]

Karsten Wade wrote:
> >This is the question to discuss, why not put some new content in
> other 
> >languages? After analyizing the content, one could translate to english 
> >too. That's the same method, but in another order. Instead of English -> 
> >OtherLanguage, it is OtherLanguage -> English.
>  
>  
>  I definitely want to see this with other documentation.  It should not
>  matter what the source language is, as long as we have the ability to
>  translate it.
>  
>  However, the Wiki is special, and I'm glad you brought this here to
>  discuss. 
Good, this was my real objective with this thread :)

>  For every language that is adding original, language specific
> content,
>  we need >1 editors who watch that content.  With the formal
>  documentation, we can get editors from each language to approve the
>  content for publishing.  That process needs to be in place for each non-
>  English language for the Wiki, just like it is for the English portions.
>  
>  For example:
>  
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SexCitationsTecken 
"Funny" example :)
I didn't understand a word that is in the page, but I got it what you said.

>  I propose that each language that wants to put original content on
> any
>  formal Fedora site, regardless of Wiki, XML, etc., needs to have the
>  following:
>  
>  * 2 or more editors who watch all contributions, in the native language
>    - we are currently at greater risk for unwanted mentions of how to
>  install mp3 players, but over time we'll attract defacements
>  
>  * 1 or more translators who carry the content over to the English side
>  of the Wiki.
>  
>  * Native language contributors who allow the above people to do their
>  jobs.
>  
>  The editors/translators need to have established trust with the Fedora
>  project, to know that they understand what and why content is forbidden,
>  and that they will be accountable. 
I liked this proposal. But I have some questions to ask:

- Is the english translation for another language content necessary? 
Everything should be "synced" in an English version? And why?

- Is there a place where these forbidden items (like the mp3 case) are 
listed? I think this is good not only for this issue, but for all 
contributors too.

I'm really willing to contribute for anything I could do for the 
project, but I have to go a long way since I feel  for it :)

>  - Karsten 
-- 
[]'s
Eitch

http://www.devin.com.br/eitch/
"Talk is cheap. Show me the code." - Linus Torvalds

[Karsten Wade]

On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 18:49 -0200, Hugo Cisneiros wrote:
>  Karsten Wade wrote: 
>  > For example:
>  > 
>  > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SexCitationsTecken
>  
>  "Funny" example :)
>  I didn't understand a word that is in the page, but I got it what you said. 
Sorry, I should have explained this better anyway.  The appearance of
the characters "Sex" _seems_ to correspond to the English word spelled
the same way, but I have no idea what it means.  Google doesn't have a
translation tool.  In this case, it seems to be a common Wiki file.  But
I don't know the source language, and if page appeared in another
language with a word that _seemed_ to mean something in English, I might
wonder if the page had been defaced.

>  - Is the english translation for another language content necessary?
>
>  Everything should be "synced" in an English version? And why? 
This is something the group needs to decide:

i)  Does this formal website translate all content into and from all
languages?  

Or

ii) Does it allow there to be a growing body of language-specific
content?

>  - Is there a place where these forbidden items (like the mp3 case)
> are 
>  listed? I think this is good not only for this issue, but for all 
>  contributors too. 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
Content Services                          Fedora Documentation Project
http://www.redhat.com/docs   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject

[Clair]

Karsten Wade wrote:
>  On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 18:49 -0200, Hugo Cisneiros wrote:
> > Karsten Wade wrote:
>
> > > For example:
> > >
> > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SexCitationsTecken
> >
> > "Funny" example :)
> > I didn't understand a word that is in the page, but I got it what you
> > said.
>
>  Sorry, I should have explained this better anyway.  The appearance of
>  the characters "Sex" _seems_ to correspond to the English word spelled
>  the same way, but I have no idea what it means.  Google doesn't have a
>  translation tool.  In this case, it seems to be a common Wiki file.  But
>  I don't know the source language, and if page appeared in another
>  language with a word that _seemed_ to mean something in English, I might
>  wonder if the page had been defaced. 
Roughly translates as "Six citation putting conventions" - it's Swedish.
The Swedish language is always fun for English.. including words like
"sex" and "bra" in everyday language :)

Looks like an innocent wiki page though, listing conventions on how to
cite your name.


Clair

[Arthur Pemberton]

On 2/9/06, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 15:38 -0200, Hugo Cisneiros wrote:
>  > Thomas Chung wrote:
>  > > Hi Hugo,
>  >
>  > Hi,
>  >
>  > > We need *translation* not an *independent* content on different
>  languages on our
>  > > official fedora websites - http://fedora.redhat.com and
>  http://fedoraproject.org
>  > >
>  > > If you need to be put *independent* content, then I would suggest to
>  setup *independent*
>  > > web site with Fedora Logo upon approval.
>  >
>  > This is the question to discuss, why not put some new content in other
>  > languages? After analyizing the content, one could translate to english
>  > too. That's the same method, but in another order. Instead of English ->
>  > OtherLanguage, it is OtherLanguage -> English.
>
>  I definitely want to see this with other documentation.  It should not
>  matter what the source language is, as long as we have the ability to
>  translate it.
>
>  However, the Wiki is special, and I'm glad you brought this here to
>  discuss.
>
>  For every language that is adding original, language specific content,
>  we need >1 editors who watch that content.  With the formal
>  documentation, we can get editors from each language to approve the
>  content for publishing.  That process needs to be in place for each non-
>  English language for the Wiki, just like it is for the English portions.
>
>  For example:
>
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SexCitationsTecken 

Because I am a very curious person, what exactly is 'SexCitationsTecken'
supposed to mean in English.

Bob noticed this one last week from a search for "java".  Investigation
>  shows that i) it does not have an author stamp at the bottom, 

Any reason why the wiki itself doesn't show who the initial editor was,
along with the current information about the most recent edit? If not, could
this be added?

ii) it's
>  last edited was a long time ago, and iii) the term
> SexCitationsTecken
>  gets many google hits across various Wikis.  We can therefore conclude
>  that it must be a Wiki-specific piece of information.
>
>  But in English, it looks like a pr0n Website defacement.
>
>  I propose that each language that wants to put original content on any
>  formal Fedora site, regardless of Wiki, XML, etc., needs to have the
>  following:
>
>  * 2 or more editors who watch all contributions, in the native language
>    - we are currently at greater risk for unwanted mentions of how to
>  install mp3 players, but over time we'll attract defacements
>
>  * 1 or more translators who carry the content over to the English side
>  of the Wiki.
>
>  * Native language contributors who allow the above people to do their
>  jobs.
>
>  The editors/translators need to have established trust with the Fedora
>  project, to know that they understand what and why content is forbidden,
>  and that they will be accountable. 

I went through the entire setup to become a contributor process, but I can't
remember seeing a list of these  forbidden content. It woudl good if this
could be more obvioous to editors. A declaration of expected content for the
wiki would be nice.

- Karsten
>  Good idea all in all however. 
--
As a boy I jumped through Windows, as a man I play with Penguins.

[Karsten Wade]

On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 15:28 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>          http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SexCitationsTecken
>  
>  Because I am a very curious person, what exactly is
>  'SexCitationsTecken' supposed to mean in English. 
Clair answered separately:

"Roughly translates as "Six citation putting conventions" - it's
Swedish.
The Swedish language is always fun for English.. including words like
"sex" and "bra" in everyday language :)

Looks like an innocent wiki page though, listing conventions on how to
cite your name."

My point was that, without an editor who reads Swedish checking Swedish
language pages, there is no way for the rest of us to know if that page
is about "six of something" or "sex of something." 

>          Bob noticed this one last week from a search for
>          "java".  Investigation 
>          shows that i) it does not have an author stamp at the bottom,
>  
>  Any reason why the wiki itself doesn't show who the initial editor
>  was, along with the current information about the most recent edit? If
>  not, could this be added? 
That page in particular, you mean?

I'm assuming it was loaded with the Wiki, since the last edit date is
pretty far back.

>  I went through the entire setup to become a contributor process, but
> I
>  can't remember seeing a list of these  forbidden content. It woudl
>  good if this  could be more obvioous to editors. A declaration of
>  expected content for the wiki would be nice. 
We try.  There _is_ a lot of content that one needs to read to be a full
contributor, but it's still less than Wikipedia requires. :)

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
Content Services                          Fedora Documentation Project
http://www.redhat.com/docs   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject