On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 01:35 +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> As I said "other voices" I never said they resided on this list ( I dont
> keep tap who's on this list or any other list for that matter ) however
> you should recall atleast one such debate when we rewrote/redesigned the
> QA frontpage on the wiki.. I feel we definitively needs some wiki rules
It would help if you'd split things into paragraphs, my eyes keep
glazing over after four lines...
> and regulations. When I started to write wiki pages I was pointed out
> that I should write those pages on my name space followed by pointing
> other members of the community to that page and if the community was
> happy with the content/layout it would be move to the front if not I
> should A) rewrite the page according to suggestion and resubmit or B)
> those that did not agree with the content layout of that page should
> draft what ever they think it should look like and submit that.
That's the procedure we follow for particularly significant and
important pages - like the most popular few pages for a group (the
Bugzappers front page, joining page etc). It doesn't scale to _every
page in the Wiki_, there just aren't the resources to review everything.
For a less significant page like this, it doesn't need review.
> if I
> would change an already published wiki page I should comment in the page
> it self why I made those changes .
That's not correct, you should explain in the comment box when you make
the change. If you need a longer justification than that space allows,
put it on the Talk page.
> Now I had barely finished wikifying
> for example Sysrq ( Now https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Sysrq ) and
> was waiting for feed back from the community ( for example if it was
> simple/clear enough ) when it got yanked out of my personal space and
> dump where it resides now ( which probably not where the wiki admins
> want it to reside ).
That sounds strange, I didn't know anything about it happening at the
time. Who moved it? What was the rationale?
Having said that, that's probably an example of a page it's fine to just
create directly - it's not crucial enough to require drafting and formal
review, though of course it's always good to get other people's opinions
on the page if you can :)
> Either we create pages at will submit them when
> accepted they get move to the front then if a rewriting ( other than
> minor changes such as typo fixing etc ) occurs the individual that wants
> to rewrite the current page does so on his own name space and submits
> his changes or everybody hack everything everywhere on the wiki and
> constantly play wiki rewriting ping pong game of how their perception on
> how things should look/be written.
In practice, it's usually easy to compromise. Since everyone's basically
pointing in the same direction here, and it's easy to collaborate, that
kind of ping-ponging doesn't happen too often. When it does get started,
we can agree to bring both perspectives to a meeting or ML discussion
and decide on the best approach with the approval of the rest of the
> One half says user your own namespace
> and submit your suggestion comment when changing.the other halfs says
> wanna change something on the wiki change it. I think the community
> needs to agree on which way it should be.
As I said, I don't think this is an area where there needs to be One
True Way. Different groups and different pages can take different
approaches. As long as the information gets out there in the end, it's
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
On Thu, 2009-10-01 at 23:39 +0000, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> set while other
> voices in the community think that they should have University, RHCE
> some other degree stuck up their ass to be able to participate in
> testing or other aspects of the community
I think you're setting up a straw man here. I haven't seen anyone on
this list suggest any such thing, and I don't see that any of the
existing pages are intentionally written in this way. It would be good
to have consistent styles for such pages, but there's no need to set it
up in such a confrontational way.
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
I have completed the second draft of the PackageKit chapter for the
Fedora 12 Deployment Guide, which you can see here:
I have incorporated a lot of much-appreciated feedback from Richard
Hughes and Matthias Clasen of the PackageKit team and Rahul
Kavalapara into this draft.
* all screenshots have been improved and some added
* discussion of PackageKit's architecture has been moved to the end
of the chapter, though linked to from the opening paragraph
* explanation of the architecture corrected and expanded
* filter descriptions corrected and expanded (including Only native
* TOC entries streamlined
* I still need a screenshot of the proper Authenticate (for update
purposes) dialog on F12 Alpha (if someone can provide this, at full
size in GIMP's .xcf format if possible)
* not all text in Log and Architecture sections is formatted (read:
bold) yet (waiting for review of accuracy)
Review and feedback is welcome from everyone. For details on how to
get involved in the Fedora 12 Deployment Guide update, see the
project page (and join the mailing list) at:
Technical Writer | Red Hat, Inc.
On 10/02/2009 03:01 AM, Piotr Drąg wrote:
> W dniu 01.10.2009 18:52, Ruediger Landmann pisze:
>> Sorry that, we're a little behind schedule, but Fedora 12 docs are now
>> available in Transifex:
> Many thanks for making that possible!
> Just one question. Do you want to disable translation submitting to
> Fedora 11 branches? Some people are still working on them. I don't know
> if Docs Project is going to publish their updates to F11 documents.
I wondered about this -- it seems to make sense.
So yes, please, wherever an f12 doc is available, please disable
submission to the f11 doc. I think we can leave the branches there until
f11 goes unsupported.
On the other hand, if anyone in L10N really wants to complete an f11 doc
that they're working on, please say so -- I'll make sure that any f11
doc that gets completed will get published.
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00:01:39 #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda:
00:01:39 Meeting started Thu Oct 1 00:01:39 2009 UTC. The chair is
Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:01:39 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
00:01:45 #topic Roll Call!
00:01:47 * Sparks
00:02:04 * jjmcd est ici ou la
00:02:36 * ke4qqq is here - believe it or not
00:03:09 * rudi is here
00:03:15 * Sparks just updated the agenda... :)
00:03:18 * quaid esta aqui
00:04:39 * ianweller is here but not watching, mention me if a
response is needed...
00:05:08 Okay, let's get started.
00:05:15 #topic Release notes format changes
00:05:22 Couple things on RNs
00:05:31 We are building every night for L10N
00:05:32 jjmcd: Remind me, again, what this is and do we need to keep
it on the agenda
00:05:54 Most mornings I have been posting errors to trans list
00:06:15 Props to jjmcd -- this is *excellent*
00:06:16 I notice yesterday juhp and rudi had q1uite a chat about the tables
00:06:21 as did I
00:06:47 Result, really no changes. juhp thought comps might be a
better source than primary.sqlite, but it is very incomplete
00:07:00 And now, Sparks, I think you can remove this from the list
00:07:08 Thanks rudi, but purely selfish
00:07:19 jjmcd: This is awesome work!
00:07:22 We get a lot of hard errors fixed by someone else
00:07:33 It relocates the work where it really should be?
00:07:47 If I can get someone else to do the work !! ;-))
00:08:07 ANd some of the translators are really digging in
00:08:13 So... is the plan still to post everything to docs.fp.o and
to provide a link in the HELP menu and not the document itself?
00:08:37 I thought we were going to figure out the KDE alternative for yelp
00:08:48 I don't know
00:08:49 or just do yelp
00:08:56 I think that was the result
00:09:08 I know we had discussed a few different ways of doing it
00:09:23 I did intend to go back through the logs -- yeah, we talked
about a half-doze approaches
00:09:34 but I had this nagging feeling I had to much with KDE
00:09:34 I'm concerned about the translations and the RPMs
00:09:48 If we make the rpm like F11 no prob
00:10:14 one BIG one or multiple RPMs for different languages?
00:10:30 one big one, like we always have, except not as many formats
00:10:40 Soyou get your lang automatically
00:11:02 Won't be a shock to anyone that way
00:11:21 okay, any other questions?
00:12:08 #topic Status on CMS (Zikula)
00:12:18 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula#Module_status
00:12:23 Any update on this?
00:12:47 none to speak of
00:12:59 at least not from me
00:13:06 someone was working on packaging the editor we needed.
00:13:06 mchua|away: and gang are making progress
00:13:19 danielsmw was working the editor iirc
00:13:55 ianweller: Were you going to review the editor package?
00:14:25 was i?
00:14:38 i don't really remember.
00:14:48 ianweller: I think danielsmw was supposed to get with you to
work out the errors he was getting...
00:14:58 i never heard from him.
00:15:00 ...and possibly get you to review the package
00:15:29 I think it was last week Friday that I expected danielsmw to
ask for help, never saw him, but I thought ianweller was going to
00:15:53 i'll happily help out when needed :)
00:16:06 can one of you follow up with him this week, please?
00:16:32 I'll keep an eye out for him, but haven't seen much lately
00:16:50 ke4qqq: Isn't danielsmw down there with you?
00:17:01 he recently started back to college and he's on the 3 year
plan - so things are probably a tad busy
00:17:11 I would think so
00:17:11 I'll call him this week and see what's up
00:17:15 ke4qqq: Thanks
00:17:31 #action ke4qqq to follow up with danielsmw on the editor
package for Zikula
00:17:39 Okay, anything else on this topic?
00:18:32 #topic Status on CC license rollout.
00:18:40 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/License_changeover_schedule
00:19:29 ianweller: Are we ready to make the internal announcement?
00:20:00 quaid: Have you done the follow up with the RPM guide?
00:20:47 ok, here's the two bits.
00:21:09 1. I need to contact Eric Foster-Johnson about relicensing
RPM Guide .. he didn't do a CLA, for example.
00:21:44 quaid: Where is the RPM Guide? I don't remember what that
00:21:48 2. We have some issues to work through still with the Max
RPM content; there is a contributor who doesn't want to have their
content relicensed nor have attribution.
00:21:57 we have it in cvs or git or something
00:22:24 We were going to add more development and include the Max RPM content?
00:22:38 yeah, the idea was to have both to meld in to one, new,
shiny RPM Guide.
00:22:55 What are the current licenses?
00:23:31 Sparks: hi
00:23:55 OPL clean for RPM Guide, OPL + non-free clauses for Max RPM
00:24:11 Well that's a problem.
00:24:32 not if they are relicensed to the same CC BY SA :)
00:24:45 someone (Sparks) tell me if we're ready and i will make the
announcement on docs-list devel-announce advisory-board etc
00:25:03 quaid: Yeah... IF
00:25:30 Okay... so here's the deal. I want the license change over
done within the next two weeks. Is that feasible?
00:26:01 We can change the license and then reject the RPM guides if
they don't want to play ball, imo.
00:26:16 rudi: Can you have publican updated within a week or two?
00:26:18 oh, yeah
00:26:20 do we have to relicense them?
00:26:26 RPM stuff is totally non-critical path
00:26:32 Yep -- I'm just waiting for someone to pull the trigger
00:26:42 move ahead with relicensing without worrying about RPM content
00:27:02 #action ianweller to figure out how to change the license on the wiki
00:27:05 ianweller: Go ahead and put the word out internally
00:27:05 that was all a courtesy/interest; that's RPM.org stuff,
people here just said, "I'd like to help," so I took on that
relicensing too :)
00:27:12 Sparks: ok
00:27:34 will do that in a couple of hours
00:27:38 This license change will NOT affect stuff in git... etc.
00:27:42 ianweller: Thanks
00:27:47 Sparks: is that on the announcement draft?
00:27:49 let's go over that.
00:27:54 cuz that's what i'm gonna copy/paste.
00:28:02 The license change will affect stuff on the wiki and stuff we publish
00:28:05 that requires i find it
00:28:22 ianweller: Doh! I didn't link to it anywhere!
00:28:49 #action rudi to change the license information in the
publican brands for Fedora
00:29:11 Sparks -- so is that a green light now?
00:29:20 * ianweller hunts in his email box
00:29:24 rudi: Yes
- -- the bottom one.
00:29:47 let's discuss that.
00:30:02 rudi: I'm going to shoot a message to the list to make sure
that all guide owners are aware of the upcoming change. Just reply to
that when you get it all straight, please.
00:30:13 Will do
00:31:25 ianweller: Looks good. Should we make a wiki page that says
why we are doing this and maybe some FAQs and post that link in that
00:31:38 Sparks: that would be pretty awesome.
00:31:52 i'm working on an english project right now so if somebody
could do that tonight i will buy them a drink
00:32:10 Of course we'd need some folks to ask questions so we'd know
what is a FAQ
00:32:19 "what's CC"
00:32:25 "why is the OPL bad"
00:32:30 "why is CC better"
00:32:30 "why is it better than OPL"
00:32:32 "what's the scope of this change"
00:32:38 uh, did't I write all that?
00:32:45 you did yeah.
00:32:52 but not as a FAQ!
00:32:53 i think.
00:32:53 quaid: Where?
00:32:59 Sparks: on the announcement
00:33:03 FAQe (pronounced "fake")
00:33:06 one sec
00:33:24 quaid: Yeah, you did.
00:33:29 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Relicensing_OPL_to_CC_BY_SA
00:33:32 well HEY
00:33:48 some of those links don't look right ...
00:33:53 maybe I left stubs for more?
00:34:17 I don't think we are relicensing Fedora Hosted... are we?
00:34:24 no, see
00:34:25 I could see some potential problems.
00:34:29 for all of the guides we have there
00:34:38 just fill in whatever
00:34:54 but yeah i still need somebody awesome to turn that page
into an FAQ perhaps
00:34:58 yeah, last history is 'interim save' meaning I never got it
to deserving a full comment block
00:35:11 quaid: hah
00:35:14 quaid: Can I use your blog text on the page?
00:35:57 Sparks: natch!
00:36:14 I hereby license it under CC BY SA, with attribution being a
link back to the original post
00:36:43 * quaid dual licenses it under OPL for the time being
00:36:50 so it can be put on the page until he license change :D
00:36:56 isn't copyright fun!
00:37:04 quaid: I'm going to need that in writing, please. :)
00:37:18 that isn't writing? ;)
00:37:59 I need a paper
00:38:20 On advice from my attorney-in-training...
00:38:25 nope, IRC log is good enough
00:38:31 on advice from my monkey council
00:39:10 * Sparks really didn't ask her as she's currently writing a
motion for her case and I'd hate to become a part of that case
00:39:40 * ianweller makes a motion
00:39:43 * ianweller dances on the floor
00:39:56 quaid: ok so i'm volunteering you to faqize that faqe
00:40:29 good luck with that
00:40:46 hey, you know what would help here?
00:40:51 a drink?
00:40:54 can we get a quick list of the guides in f'hosted?
00:40:56 yeh, that too
00:41:00 that we want to switch?
00:42:00 * quaid edits the page to put them in
00:42:08 Okay, I just pasted that into the wiki page but it's ugly...
I'll be fixing that later.
00:42:12 um, if it's done for now?
00:42:26 * quaid is adding in the fhosted list so will fix some formatting now
00:42:49 quaid: Do we want to selectively list the guides we are
relicensing or just say "all guides"?
00:44:13 I have it as a task to email *all* contributors, past and present
00:44:14 as a courtesy
00:44:21 so it would help if we had a definitive list
00:44:24 I think ...
00:44:53 Is that even possible?
00:45:29 I could get a good list of names with a few hours in cvs and f'hosted
00:45:44 I know the security guide has been in so many different
formats and changed/modified that I don't know what kind of paper
trail is even left.
00:45:48 it's a courtesy move; if we cannot reach people, it's not a
00:46:00 yeah, well, I mayn't look for wiki stuff
00:46:01 the SG came from the wiki...
00:46:04 just thinking Install guide, etc.
00:46:08 yeah, I get that
00:46:11 and I mean MOIN wiki
00:46:23 * quaid can get his hands on that stuff, too
00:46:30 ok ...
00:46:40 well, it might be futile; and it's NOT on the critical path.
00:46:44 Not trying to discourage... :)
00:46:47 ok, back to the question at hand ...
00:46:49 I have:
00:46:56 Installation guide
00:46:59 Release notes
00:47:04 Security guide
00:47:07 SELiux guide
00:47:11 adding ...
00:47:14 Deployment guide
00:48:04 Assessibility Guide
00:48:18 is that fhosted.org/accessibility-guide?
00:48:48 I think so... I just put it there a few months ago. It used
to be in the RN up to F9 or F10
00:49:19 /me looking for 'guide' on fh.o
00:49:30 That's a good start. :)
00:50:56 quaid: You should see one in there for an Amateur Radio
Guide but there's nothing there, yet, and should be jjmcd and I
working on that so no worries there.
00:51:21 http://svn.fedoraproject.org/svn/Deployment_Guide/ ?
00:51:37 What's the question?
00:52:00 it's weird for both to appear, first seems empty; old?
00:52:16 ah, or that
00:52:27 perspectival is working on that one
00:52:32 Doesn't seem to be here right now
00:53:51 any others?
00:54:21 Add Virtualization Guide
00:54:41 I'm rolling down the page
00:54:45 about-fedora etc.
00:55:04 what is http://git.fedoraproject.org/git/redhatsecurityguide.git
00:55:33 Don't know what the first one is... the second one should be
the "fedora" sg
00:55:47 * quaid wishes we had all stuck with the "- is the space
designator" for hosted project guide names
00:56:05 some with, some without, and now a bunch of New_Style
00:56:09 Publican works better with _
00:56:47 * quaid rolls his eyes and bites his tongue
00:56:57 Yeah, well, I agree
00:57:00 probably not worth changing the other names
00:57:17 * quaid *cough* you know, from the names similar to Fedora
00:57:34 ok, we don't have to kill the mtg with this
00:57:41 I'll publish the updated page in a few.
00:57:53 anything else on this topic?
00:58:08 #link https://fedorahosted.org/rpmguide/
00:58:13 for the record
00:58:49 Okay... lets cut down to the meat and potatoes...
00:58:55 #topic Guide needs?
00:59:01 * ianweller has to run
00:59:02 Any guides have any needs?
00:59:27 ianweller: See ya
00:59:33 Sparks - use same image conventions as user guide?
00:59:42 i.e. images/chapter
01:00:52 #topic New Guides
01:00:56 Any new guides?
01:01:31 #topic All other business
01:01:39 Any other items that need to be discussed?
01:02:35 Okay, thanks everyone for coming!
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