DVD distribution and their impact

[Siddhesh Poyarekar]

On 24 November 2015 at 09:45, sankarshan <foss.mailinglists(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  All these locations receive the DVD and thus roughly 2000
> individuals
>  (not all new/unique) receive F23 media. What happens next? 
I personally consider DVDs to be smarter stickers, buttons or flyers,
i.e. promotional media that has digital content.  In that context, the
impact of DVDs is similar to impact of stickers: they help improve
brand awareness at conferences and meetups.  There is the other aspect
of enabling individuals who may otherwise not have the bandwidth to
download the distirbution and try it themselves.  The freemedia
program tries to reach out to such people, but like you, I am not very
convinced about its utility in attracting long term users or
contributors.

That said, there seems to be quite a bit of interest in DVDs (from
conference attendees and consequently, ambassadors) regardless of our
apprehensions and that says something even though we don't quite know
what.

I don't think DVD production is that big a cost that we need to put so
much thought into potentially replacing it with something else.  If
there's an alternative that needs evaluation (like a device that
allows people to plug USB sticks in and copy a bootable distribution
copy, that sounds like a nice engineering project), we should bring it
up first, try it and then decide if DVD production is putting cost
pressure on that alternative.

Siddhesh
-- 
http://siddhesh.in

[P J P]

>  On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 12:36 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
>  If there's an alternative that needs evaluation (like a device that
>  allows people to plug USB sticks in and copy a bootable distribution
>  copy, that sounds like a nice engineering project), 

  A laptop with local Fedora ISOs running dd(1)?

 ---
  -P J P
http://feedmug.com

[Rejy M Cyriac]

On 11/24/2015 10:15 PM, P J P wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 12:36 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
> > If there's an alternative that needs evaluation (like a device that
> > allows people to plug USB sticks in and copy a bootable distribution
> > copy, that sounds like a nice engineering project),
>  
>  
>    A laptop with local Fedora ISOs running dd(1)?
>   
A better looking alternative would be running 'liveusb-creator'

- rejy (rmc)

>   ---
>    -P J P
>  http://feedmug.com
>  _______________________________________________
>  india mailing list
>  india(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/india
>

[Siddhesh Poyarekar]

On 24 November 2015 at 22:15, P J P <pjp(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>    A laptop with local Fedora ISOs running dd(1)? 
A raspberrypi type board (but more powerful) would be cheaper and more portable.

Siddhesh
-- 
http://siddhesh.in

[sankarshan]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar
<siddhesh.poyarekar(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On 24 November 2015 at 09:45, sankarshan
> <foss.mailinglists(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > All these locations receive the DVD and thus roughly 2000 individuals
> > (not all new/unique) receive F23 media. What happens next?
>
>  I personally consider DVDs to be smarter stickers, buttons or flyers,
>  i.e. promotional media that has digital content.  In that context, the
>  impact of DVDs is similar to impact of stickers: they help improve
>  brand awareness at conferences and meetups.  There is the other aspect
>  of enabling individuals who may otherwise not have the bandwidth to
>  download the distirbution and try it themselves.  The freemedia
>  program tries to reach out to such people, but like you, I am not very
>  convinced about its utility in attracting long term users or
>  contributors. 
The "smarter stickers" aspect is something which I find interesting.
My question was to try and arrive at the 'what is the outcome we seek
when we distribute DVDs?'

I'm not too sure that even 'more people will install and use Fedora'
is being met with the production and distribution of DVDs. The absence
of any conversation from recipient of the DVDs is obviously not the
only evidence of absence.

>  That said, there seems to be quite a bit of interest in DVDs (from
>  conference attendees and consequently, ambassadors) regardless of our
>  apprehensions and that says something even though we don't quite know
>  what. 
This is the part I'd like to understand. There is interest. We ship
DVDs, but what happens after that? Do we see more users? Do we see
some of these users (perhaps students) figure out how to use the
installed environment to do some work with it? Do we know of a group
of recipients who have demonstrated an interest to go beyond their
usual routine and demand how to use Fedora to contribute to something
in upstream(s).

>  I don't think DVD production is that big a cost that we need to
> put so
>  much thought into potentially replacing it with something else.  If
>  there's an alternative that needs evaluation (like a device that
>  allows people to plug USB sticks in and copy a bootable distribution
>  copy, that sounds like a nice engineering project), we should bring it
>  up first, try it and then decide if DVD production is putting cost
>  pressure on that alternative. 
The reason I start the discussion implying that we should stop
producing and distributing DVDs is not because I want to strongly
advocate that path. The reason is whether by continuing to produce and
distribute DVDs we become complacent and not seek to measure the
benefit or, think about the actual impact which needs to happen. My
opinion is that this "cheap grace" [1] is what is an impediment to
thinking around paths which create more contributors within and
without the Fedora project space. My contention is that we have enough
models around us to think about how we can experiment to achieve those
outcomes. My observation is that it is required to do so. If you have
been participating in the Fedora project for a while, you'll notice
the lack of news from LATAM, APAC, Africa etc - large blocks of
nations which seem uniquely poised to derive benefit from
contributions, but there's substantially less structure in the
activity around the project.


[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cost_of_Discipleship>


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan>

[P J P]

>  On Friday, 27 November 2015 1:53 PM, sankarshan wrote:
>  My contention is that we have enough models around us to
>  think about how we can experiment to achieve those outcomes. 
It'll help to list few options to further the discussion.

---  -P J P
http://feedmug.com

[sankarshan]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:15 PM, P J P <pjp(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> > On Friday, 27 November 2015 1:53 PM, sankarshan wrote:
> > My contention is that we have enough models around us to
> > think about how we can experiment to achieve those outcomes.
>
>  It'll help to list few options to further the discussion. 
Depends on what outcome we seek when we produce and distribute DVDs.


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan>

[P J P]

>  On Saturday, 28 November 2015 1:24 AM, sankarshan wrote:
>  Depends on what outcome we seek when we produce and distribute DVDs. 
  IMO distributing DVDs is easy marketing[*] to acquire new user/customer
base. Similar to how news papers distribute free copies, book authors
publish sample chapters, food makers, even the fruits hawker by the
street gives out free samples, Microsoft overlooks piracy, internet
companies offer free accounts et al.

[*] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freebie_marketing

---
  -P J P
http://feedmug.com

[sankarshan]

On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 12:29 PM, P J P <pjp(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  IMO distributing DVDs is easy marketing[*] to acquire new
> user/customer
>  base. 
and has there been a corresponding increase in the user base
considering the duration DVD distribution has been in place?


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan>

[P J P]

>  On Saturday, 28 November 2015 3:23 PM, sankarshan wrote:
>  and has there been a corresponding increase in the user base
>  considering the duration DVD distribution has been in place? 

  Sure, I wouldn't think there has been no impact at all. Has

there been a corresponding effort/method to measure it through
all the duration that DVD distribution has been in place?

---
  -P J P
http://feedmug.com

[sankarshan]

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 1:14 PM, P J P <pjp(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Sure, I wouldn't think there has been no impact at all. Has
>
>  there been a corresponding effort/method to measure it through
>  all the duration that DVD distribution has been in place? 
It is intriguing to respond to a question with another. If there has
not been any way to deduce the impact of DVD distribution on user
base, is your first statement based on perception?

Without a specific and structured method to co-relate the distribution
of DVDs to an increase of user base, one has to use some secondary
ways to check for trends.

I'm not sure of the exact number but would be it a reasonably accurate
estimate that around 5000 units of DVDs of various Fedora releases
have been produced and distributed via channels viz. FreeMedia,
Events, UGs? And if there are 500 unique recipients of such media, has
this list or, any other channel (Ask Fedora etc) heard from at least
10% of these recipients? I think when Rejy sends out the FreeMedia
DVDs, he adds a note about "how to seek and receive help".

There's another question which is implied - are the outcomes expected
from DVD distribution aligned with the goals of the Fedora community
in India?

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan>

[P J P]

>  On Sunday, 29 November 2015 1:36 PM, sankarshan wrote:
> > Has there been a corresponding effort/method to measure it
> > through all the duration that DVD distribution has been in place?
>
>  It is intriguing to respond to a question with another. 
  Because I don't know if there was such effort.

>  If there has not been any way to deduce the impact of
>  DVD distribution on user base, is your first statement
>  based on perception? 

  Partly that and partly being optimistic. It'd be a stretch
to write off DVD distribution as having zero impact, which is
probably why we have the FreeMedia program running.

>  I'm not sure of the exact number but would be it a reasonably
> accurate
>  estimate that around 5000 units of DVDs of various Fedora releases
>  have been produced and distributed via channels viz. FreeMedia,
>  Events, UGs? And if there are 500 unique recipients of such media, has
>  this list or, any other channel (Ask Fedora etc) heard from at least
>  10% of these recipients? I think when Rejy sends out the FreeMedia
>  DVDs, he adds a note about "how to seek and receive help". 

  IMO DVD distribution and recipients becoming active participants are
two different aspects, which need not be connected. They could still
be using Fedora and upgrading to newer versions. When news papers
distribute free copies, it is not expected that the recipients would
start writing editorial comments and columns.

>  There's another question which is implied - are the outcomes
> expected
>  from DVD distribution aligned with the goals of the Fedora community
>  in India? 

  Do we have these goals and expectations defined and communicated to
the active participants?

---
  -P J Phttp://feedmug.com

[sankarshan]

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 5:40 PM, P J P <pjp(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> > On Sunday, 29 November 2015 1:36 PM, sankarshan wrote:
> >> Has there been a corresponding effort/method to measure it
> >> through all the duration that DVD distribution has been in place?
> >
> > It is intriguing to respond to a question with another.
>
>    Because I don't know if there was such effort.
>
> > If there has not been any way to deduce the impact of
> > DVD distribution on user base, is your first statement
> > based on perception?
>
>
>    Partly that and partly being optimistic. It'd be a stretch
>  to write off DVD distribution as having zero impact, which is
>  probably why we have the FreeMedia program running. 
Why would be a stretch? The FreeMedia program works on the basis of
tickets. And I am not sure if anyone does actually check (a) for
unique recipients (b) geographical coverage of the media distribution.

We have the FreeMedia program running because it requires the project
to invest a very minimal amount of money while depending largely upon
the goodwill of the volunteers mailing the media out. If you discount
the cost of the media, every single DVD mailed costs around 35 INR. It
might seem little, but 100 units of such mailing is a good amount of
money to ask volunteers to bear the trouble for.

The question then comes up - why are we asking them? Is it making the
project itself complacent to find (a) ways to measure impact (b) ways
to create a participant base (c) ways to have a feedback loop

> > I'm not sure of the exact number but would be it a reasonably
> accurate
> > estimate that around 5000 units of DVDs of various Fedora releases
> > have been produced and distributed via channels viz. FreeMedia,
> > Events, UGs? And if there are 500 unique recipients of such media, has
> > this list or, any other channel (Ask Fedora etc) heard from at least
> > 10% of these recipients? I think when Rejy sends out the FreeMedia
> > DVDs, he adds a note about "how to seek and receive help".
>
>
>    IMO DVD distribution and recipients becoming active participants are
>  two different aspects, which need not be connected. They could still
>  be using Fedora and upgrading to newer versions. When news papers
>  distribute free copies, it is not expected that the recipients would
>  start writing editorial comments and columns. 
Why are they different aspects? A few emails back you mentioned that
in your opinion the distribution is a way to obtain new customer base.
Well, every campaign takes stock of whether such new customer sign-ups
have actually happened. How would you do that in case of FreeMedia?
There is practically no obligation for a recipient to raise a hand and
state "I've installed and would like to participate".

I think the participation in the community in India is not similar to
writing editorials. As a straw-man argument it is a fine stretch.
Editorials are written by on-staff contributors and invited experts.

However, regular recipients of free copies do often pop up on the
digital boards (newspaper forums, letters to the editor).

You continue to give something away for free if you are interested in
swamping the market. A couple of years back there was a Linux
distribution wherein you could write in with your detail and a nice
little consignment of stickers and media ("smart stickers") would land
up. Eventually, the recipients also formed LoCo groups and exchanged
notes. Some of the members ended up becoming fairly expert
contributors to various projects.

The percentage breakdown I provided in my original email is probably
the pessimistic one. The problem is that each time this thread comes
up, there is a continued narrative around "FreeMedia is making a
difference". The issue here is that there is no way to figure out as
such. And while we spin our wheels on it, we are missing out on the
opportunity to see how else we can create the impact. Or, in other
words, what are the possible answers to "We do not seem to have enough
contributors to the various aspects of the project, how can we bring
about an up-tick?"

> > There's another question which is implied - are the outcomes
> expected
> > from DVD distribution aligned with the goals of the Fedora community
> > in India?
>
>
>    Do we have these goals and expectations defined and communicated to
>  the active participants? 
I wouldn't know. Who are the "active participants"? What do they
expect from the Fedora community in India? What do they see themselves
doing within the community? In the past couple of years I've not seen
this discussed. Perhaps it is time. Or, then again, perhaps it is
alright to continue to believe that distributing media based on a
request is the best way to create a community.


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan>

[P J P]

>  On Sunday, 29 November 2015 6:56 PM, sankarshan wrote:
>  Why would be a stretch? The FreeMedia program works on
>  the basis of tickets. And I am not sure if anyone does
>  actually check (a) for unique recipients (b) geographical
>  coverage of the media distribution. 
  It would be a stretch to do so without any effort to
evaluate the impact. And secondly there is a demand for it.
The 2000 DVD count I shared in another thread was received
from various ambassadors across APAC region. Third, lot of
the counts were for DVDs as swag at release parties and other
events.


>  We have the FreeMedia program running because it requires the
> project
>  to invest a very minimal amount of money while depending largely upon
>  the goodwill of the volunteers mailing the media out. If you discount
>  the cost of the media, every single DVD mailed costs around 35 INR. It
>  might seem little, but 100 units of such mailing is a good amount of
>  money to ask volunteers to bear the trouble for. The question then
>  comes up - why are we asking them? 
  I don't think we are asking them. Since there is request/demand for
the media, we are providing.


>  Is it making the project itself complacent to find (a) ways to
>  measure impact (b) ways to create a participant base (c) ways to
>  have a feedback loop 

  Who do you mean by project here? IMO currently(probably so far)
these activities are done in quite ad-hoc ways. Not sure if there
is an active body with such a stated mandate.


>  Why are they different aspects? A few emails back you mentioned that
>  in your opinion the distribution is a way to obtain new customer base. 
  Ie. user/consumer base. Active participation is quite different than
using a product IMO.


>  Well, every campaign takes stock of whether such new customer
> sign-ups
>  have actually happened. How would you do that in case of FreeMedia? 
  Fot starters, these recipients could be subscribed to the fedora-users
list. Or at least we could note down their contact(<name,email,phone>)
information for further follow-ups.


>  I think the participation in the community in India is not similar
> to
>  writing editorials. As a straw-man argument it is a fine stretch.
>  Editorials are written by on-staff contributors and invited experts. 
>  However, regular recipients of free copies do often pop up on the
>  digital boards (newspaper forums, letters to the editor). 

  Yes, I did not mean the the ones written by the editors/staff. But the
comments/columns on the editorial pages sent in by the readers. There is
no expectation from readers to send those comments/content for receiving
free copies.

>  The percentage breakdown I provided in my original email is probably
>  the pessimistic one. The problem is that each time this thread comes
>  up, there is a continued narrative around "FreeMedia is making a
>  difference". The issue here is that there is no way to figure out as
>  such. 
  Agreed. As said above, to start with we could at least note down the
recipients contact information. While simultaneously figure out other
ways to measure the impact of the free DVDs. Ex. an automatic intimation
is sent to Fedora servers when an installation is finished. (It'd
require network access, but just an example)


>  And while we spin our wheels on it, we are missing out on the
>  opportunity to see how else we can create the impact. Or, in other
>  words, what are the possible answers to "We do not seem to have enough
>  contributors to the various aspects of the project, how can we bring
>  about an up-tick?" 

  That needs to be a separate thread of discussion/debate.


> >   Do we have these goals and expectations defined and
> communicated to
> > the active participants?
>
>  I wouldn't know. Who are the "active participants"? What do they
>  expect from the Fedora community in India? What do they see themselves
>  doing within the community? 
  I'll take that as No. And as for active participants, let's go with the
ones we see active on this or other lists/channels. And ones we can reach
out to for any required support.


>  In the past couple of years I've not seen this discussed.
>  Perhaps it is time. 

  Perhaps because our ways have been quite ad-hoc, without any clear
mandate/agenda/leadership to follow.


---  -P J P
http://feedmug.com

[P J P]

>  On Sunday, 29 November 2015 11:19 PM, P J P wrote:
> >> On Sunday, 29 November 2015 6:56 PM, sankarshan wrote:
> > And while we spin our wheels on it, we are missing out on the
> > opportunity to see how else we can create the impact. Or, in other
> > words, what are the possible answers to "We do not seem to have enough
> > contributors to the various aspects of the project, how can we bring
> > about an up-tick?"
>
>    That needs to be a separate thread of discussion/debate. 


  It'll help to list few options to further the discussion.

---
  -P J P
http://feedmug.com

[sankarshan]

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 11:19 PM, P J P <pjp(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> > On Sunday, 29 November 2015 6:56 PM, sankarshan wrote:
> > Why would be a stretch? The FreeMedia program works on
> > the basis of tickets. And I am not sure if anyone does
> > actually check (a) for unique recipients (b) geographical
> > coverage of the media distribution.
>
>    It would be a stretch to do so without any effort to
>  evaluate the impact. And secondly there is a demand for it. 
There is demand for it because it is provided to the recipient at "no cost".

>  The 2000 DVD count I shared in another thread was received
>  from various ambassadors across APAC region. Third, lot of
>  the counts were for DVDs as swag at release parties and other
>  events.
>
>
> > We have the FreeMedia program running because it requires the project
> > to invest a very minimal amount of money while depending largely upon
> > the goodwill of the volunteers mailing the media out. If you discount
> > the cost of the media, every single DVD mailed costs around 35 INR. It
> > might seem little, but 100 units of such mailing is a good amount of
> > money to ask volunteers to bear the trouble for. The question then
> > comes up - why are we asking them?
>
>    I don't think we are asking them. Since there is request/demand for
>  the media, we are providing. 
> From
> <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeMedia?rd=Distribution/FreeMedia>
"Freemedia is a wonderful idea and coordinates small contributions
from people around the world to deliver media to those who otherwise
would not be able to enjoy Fedora. All this is made using Fedora
Infrastructure. If you like this concept, and you like Fedora, you can
easily become a member. We ask for two disk monthly plus shipping,
please consider joining the Freemedia team ."

The present contributors to Freemedia do more than what is 'asked'.
The DVDs have been produced and part of that production made available
for F21 and F22 (with perhaps F23). And hand-rolling own media puts
the per media cost at more than 35 INR. So, if we do have a wonderful
idea that coordinates small contributions, what can we do to
demonstrate that Freemedia actually works? That those who receive the
media do really install (even if it means dual-boot installs on most
OEM supplied hardware)?

Why do I care about these questions? Well, it is not beyond the realms
of the possible to think that Freemedia will continue for ever or, the
volunteers for Freemedia will continue to shell out for
postage/mailer. What is the plan if that comes about? Do we have
another way to get to those who would want to enjoy Fedora? Are such
people being coached in the way to use Fedora as a platform and do
useful things?

There will always be inequalities of distribution which would require
those who have access to think and do something about those who do
not. But if Freemedia is the extent to which we will think and then do
nothing much, it would be akin to handing around fishing rods without
ever taking time to teach anyone to fish.

> > Is it making the project itself complacent to find (a) ways to
> > measure impact (b) ways to create a participant base (c) ways to
> > have a feedback loop
>
>
>    Who do you mean by project here? IMO currently(probably so far)
>  these activities are done in quite ad-hoc ways. Not sure if there
>  is an active body with such a stated mandate. 
The Fedora Project. With FAmSCo being the (until it dissolves) node
for Ambassadors, it is perhaps worth thinking about locally within the
country before going out and discussing at an APAC level and beyond?

Recently there was a meeting organized in context of an upcoming
meeting at Singapore. Was there a discussion about around the state of
the Fedora community in India? Or, whether there are ways in addition
to Freemedia which are of greater relevance?

> > Why are they different aspects? A few emails back you mentioned that
> > in your opinion the distribution is a way to obtain new customer base.
>
>    Ie. user/consumer base. Active participation is quite different than
>  using a product IMO. 
The point I have been belaboring over is that there is not enough data
at hand to suggest that across the country we have (a) a large and
growing user base (b) a large and growing participant base. I'd be
more than happy to read specific instances where parts of the Fedora
project have gained from contributors and users originating from
India.

> > Well, every campaign takes stock of whether such new customer
> sign-ups
> > have actually happened. How would you do that in case of FreeMedia?
>
>    Fot starters, these recipients could be subscribed to the fedora-users
>  list. Or at least we could note down their contact(<name,email,phone>)
>  information for further follow-ups.
>
>
> > I think the participation in the community in India is not similar to
> > writing editorials. As a straw-man argument it is a fine stretch.
> > Editorials are written by on-staff contributors and invited experts.
>
> > However, regular recipients of free copies do often pop up on the
> > digital boards (newspaper forums, letters to the editor).
>
>
>    Yes, I did not mean the the ones written by the editors/staff. But the
>  comments/columns on the editorial pages sent in by the readers. There is
>  no expectation from readers to send those comments/content for receiving
>  free copies. 
In other words, there is an acceptance of the lack of any
participation from the users/recipients. The basis of that assumption
is what I seek to question.

> > The percentage breakdown I provided in my original email is
> probably
> > the pessimistic one. The problem is that each time this thread comes
> > up, there is a continued narrative around "FreeMedia is making a
> > difference". The issue here is that there is no way to figure out as
> > such.
>
>    Agreed. As said above, to start with we could at least note down the
>  recipients contact information. While simultaneously figure out other
>  ways to measure the impact of the free DVDs. Ex. an automatic intimation
>  is sent to Fedora servers when an installation is finished. (It'd
>  require network access, but just an example) 
The trac ticket has the contact information with address and PIN. It
might be (non)trivial to overlay it across a map of the country and
see the 'heat' points. And if those regions continue to not have any
Fedora events, or, presence, it might be useful to seek more detail.
And the FAD budget planning would be aided by this data point to
consider organizing a FAD and couple of workshops.

> > And while we spin our wheels on it, we are missing out on the
> > opportunity to see how else we can create the impact. Or, in other
> > words, what are the possible answers to "We do not seem to have enough
> > contributors to the various aspects of the project, how can we bring
> > about an up-tick?"
>
>
>    That needs to be a separate thread of discussion/debate. 
This isn't the first time in this thread that you've mentioned things
to be discussed and debated separately. The issue here is that for all
the separate discussions at the end of it all it distills itself to a
single concept - how best to grow the community of contributors and
participants in the Fedora project. Everything that is planned has to
align in some form across this.

/s

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan>

[P J P]

>  On Monday, 30 November 2015 2:04 PM, sankarshan wrote:
>  There is demand for it because it is provided to the
>  recipient at "no cost". 
  Do we have data to indicate that?

>  if we do have a wonderful idea that coordinates small contributions,
>  what can we do to demonstrate that Freemedia actually works? That
>  those who receive the media do really install (even if it means
>  dual-boot installs on most OEM supplied hardware)? 
  I think the FreeMedia members who bear these costs are best placed
to provide any data for and against it. In fact, if their efforts are
not helping the recipients, why are they investing in such a program?

>  What is the plan if that comes about? Do we have another way to get
>  to those who would want to enjoy Fedora? Are such people being
>  coached in the way to use Fedora as a platform and do useful things? 
  This is contradicting. Above you say that there is demand for the
free media because it is free for the recipient. And here you are
concerned about those who would want to enjoy Fedora?

>  The Fedora Project. With FAmSCo being the (until it dissolves) node
>  for Ambassadors, it is perhaps worth thinking about locally within the
>  country before going out and discussing at an APAC level and beyond? 
  Well, that is why this thread was started, no? And we are the only two
of us debating here. First there is need to find ways to involve more
people.

>  Recently there was a meeting organized in context of an upcoming
>  meeting at Singapore. Was there a discussion about around the state of
>  the Fedora community in India? Or, whether there are ways in addition
>  to Freemedia which are of greater relevance? 
  No. That was an emergency meeting to figure out who could attend FAD from
India.

>  The point I have been belaboring over is that there is not enough
> data
>  at hand to suggest that across the country we have (a) a large and
>  growing user base (b) a large and growing participant base. I'd be
>  more than happy to read specific instances where parts of the Fedora
>  project have gained from contributors and users originating from
>  India. 
  Agreed. We need to find ways to collect such data.

>  In other words, there is an acceptance of the lack of any
>  participation from the users/recipients. The basis of that assumption
>  is what I seek to question. 
  Yes. It is grossly wrong IMO to expect that we'd give free DVDs and
they'll become active participants/contributors(more than just users). Active
participation is a way different game altogether, that requires cultivated
skills. Consider this, we both know there are more people following/reading
this thread, yet only two of us are debating, why?

IMO, only reasonable is to aim for increasing user/consumer base via
free media distribution. Anything beyond that is just wrong.

>  The trac ticket has the contact information with address and PIN. It
>  might be (non)trivial to overlay it across a map of the country and
>  see the 'heat' points. And if those regions continue to not have any
>  Fedora events, or, presence, it might be useful to seek more detail.
>  And the FAD budget planning would be aided by this data point to
>  consider organizing a FAD and couple of workshops. 
  Good idea. Next comes who could/would do this?

>  This isn't the first time in this thread that you've
> mentioned things
>  to be discussed and debated separately. 
  It'll help to have separate threads for each questions/points.
Because later if we have to sift through them for information it'll be
easier. This thread was started to assess impact of DVD distribution and has
already grown beyond 20 mails. Let's not jumble things together.

>  The issue here is that for all the separate discussions at the end
>  of it all it distills itself to a single concept - how best to grow
>  the community of contributors and participants in the Fedora project.
>  Everything that is planned has to align in some form across this. 

  Agreed. That is what is due for discussion at the upcoming FAD.

 ---
  -P J P
http://feedmug.com

[sankarshan]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 6:40 PM, P J P <pjp(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> > On Monday, 30 November 2015 2:04 PM, sankarshan wrote:
> > There is demand for it because it is provided to the
> > recipient at "no cost".
>
>    Do we have data to indicate that? 
The program itself does not allow adding a cost to the distribution
and recipient. If it did, the levying of a charge might indicate
whether my conjecture is correct.

> > if we do have a wonderful idea that coordinates small
> contributions,
> > what can we do to demonstrate that Freemedia actually works? That
> > those who receive the media do really install (even if it means
> > dual-boot installs on most OEM supplied hardware)?
>
>    I think the FreeMedia members who bear these costs are best placed
>  to provide any data for and against it. In fact, if their efforts are
>  not helping the recipients, why are they investing in such a program? 
I wouldn't know. But I did forward a hypothesis that investing in the
program is a way to "contribute". The URL of the program clearly
indicates as such. My hypothesis further implied that considering that
"Freemedia is contribution enough" is an impediment to thinking around
the best ways to build, grow and sustain the community (and this time
I don't draw a line between participants and contributors)

> > What is the plan if that comes about? Do we have another way to
> get
> > to those who would want to enjoy Fedora? Are such people being
> > coached in the way to use Fedora as a platform and do useful things?
>
>    This is contradicting. Above you say that there is demand for the
>  free media because it is free for the recipient. And here you are
>  concerned about those who would want to enjoy Fedora? 
Perhaps it is not. I merely used the same set of phrases from the
Freemedia page to ask if what constitutes the effort now meets the
larger objectives. Yes, people who seek media do receive media. But my
question to this list is - is everyone content with merely that bit?
Or, do the readers think that something else could be done?

> > The Fedora Project. With FAmSCo being the (until it dissolves)
> node
> > for Ambassadors, it is perhaps worth thinking about locally within the
> > country before going out and discussing at an APAC level and beyond?
>
>    Well, that is why this thread was started, no? And we are the only two
>  of us debating here. First there is need to find ways to involve more
>  people.
>
> > Recently there was a meeting organized in context of an upcoming
> > meeting at Singapore. Was there a discussion about around the state of
> > the Fedora community in India? Or, whether there are ways in addition
> > to Freemedia which are of greater relevance?
>
>    No. That was an emergency meeting to figure out who could attend FAD from
>  India. 
To be able to attend the FAD and talk about the Fedora presence in
India would require a corresponding plan-of-action to be implemented
(even if that plan is a proposed one). Or, perhaps it wouldn't. The
invite didn't quite clearly articulate what was being discussed.

The FAD has an element of budget and spends. While actual spend for
line items can have a slight variance from the proposed ones, it is
inconceivable that the proposed and actual will be completely at odds.
If that is taken as a working hypothesis, then the method of arriving
at the proposed line items for spends must have received considered
thought and deliberate thinking. My question was whether such a
process was undertaken and how it can help Fedora "in" India.

> > The point I have been belaboring over is that there is not enough
> data
> > at hand to suggest that across the country we have (a) a large and
> > growing user base (b) a large and growing participant base. I'd be
> > more than happy to read specific instances where parts of the Fedora
> > project have gained from contributors and users originating from
> > India.
>
>    Agreed. We need to find ways to collect such data.
>
> > In other words, there is an acceptance of the lack of any
> > participation from the users/recipients. The basis of that assumption
> > is what I seek to question.
>
>    Yes. It is grossly wrong IMO to expect that we'd give free DVDs and
>  they'll become active participants/contributors(more than just users). Active
>  participation is a way different game altogether, that requires cultivated
>  skills. Consider this, we both know there are more people following/reading
>  this thread, yet only two of us are debating, why? 
I cannot speak for those who have not participated in a conversation.
I can speak for myself when I say that you are conflating the topic.
The original question (which was kindly forked by Siddhesh) is in the
form - "what is the impact of distribution of DVDs; is that helping us
to grow the community; what can we do to expand the base of
contributors"

My take on this is that if the most active/vocal participants to the
project "from" India decide to address this, there needs to be a form
of controlled experiment. Stopping the distribution of DVDs via the
Freemedia and seeking volunteer help to create flows to help
contributors is perhaps a way.

Why do I think Freemedia needs to be stopped? Because as on date there
is exactly one volunteer for it and I strongly believe that his skills
should be freed up for coaching contributors.

>  IMO, only reasonable is to aim for increasing user/consumer base via
>  free media distribution. Anything beyond that is just wrong.
>
> > The trac ticket has the contact information with address and PIN. It
> > might be (non)trivial to overlay it across a map of the country and
> > see the 'heat' points. And if those regions continue to not have any
> > Fedora events, or, presence, it might be useful to seek more detail.
> > And the FAD budget planning would be aided by this data point to
> > consider organizing a FAD and couple of workshops.
>
>    Good idea. Next comes who could/would do this? 
That was the first (and probably the most daft) idea which I chanced
upon. There could be improvements or, even a different approach.




-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan>

[Siddhesh Poyarekar]

On 27 November 2015 at 13:53, sankarshan <foss.mailinglists(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  The "smarter stickers" aspect is something which I find
> interesting.
>  My question was to try and arrive at the 'what is the outcome we seek
>  when we distribute DVDs?' 
On the "smart stickers" front, nothing more than actual stickers -
creating brand awareness.  People going back from a conference with
something to hold on to and perhaps even do something with, ranging
from throwing it in the corner of their stack of swag to sticking it
up in their cubicles (I do that BTW) to putting it in their DVD drives
and giving it a spin.

>  I'm not too sure that even 'more people will install and use
> Fedora'
>  is being met with the production and distribution of DVDs. The absence
>  of any conversation from recipient of the DVDs is obviously not the
>  only evidence of absence. 
I don't disagree, which is why I specifically disassociated the
distribution from the direct goal of "even more people will install
and use Fedora".  Recipients of these DVDs at conferences are usually
techies who will probably give it a spin to see how it measures
against the latest Ubuntu, Debian, etc. and then maybe use it as an
alternative for a while.

The Freemedia program however is very different in that the recipients
don't fit into this demographic.  TBH, I don't know what the average
recipient of DVDs from the Freemedia program looks like and if someone
could define that, then maybe we could get closer to knowing what's
going on there.

>  The reason I start the discussion implying that we should stop
>  producing and distributing DVDs is not because I want to strongly
>  advocate that path. The reason is whether by continuing to produce and
>  distribute DVDs we become complacent and not seek to measure the
>  benefit or, think about the actual impact which needs to happen. My
>  opinion is that this "cheap grace" [1] is what is an impediment to
>  thinking around paths which create more contributors within and
>  without the Fedora project space. My contention is that we have enough 
If you're referring to DVD giveaways as cheap grace then I have a
different opinion because I don't see DVDs as any kind of grace, much
like I don't see stickers and buttons as any kind of grace.  If you
want DVDs to be something more than that, then I think we're on to a
different question and I don't have a more convincing answer for it
other than recipients would find it more useful to get the actual idea
(i.e. DVDs, USB sticks, etc.) than stuff about the idea (stickers,
buttons, etc.).

>  models around us to think about how we can experiment to achieve
> those
>  outcomes. My observation is that it is required to do so. If you have
>  been participating in the Fedora project for a while, you'll notice
>  the lack of news from LATAM, APAC, Africa etc - large blocks of
>  nations which seem uniquely poised to derive benefit from
>  contributions, but there's substantially less structure in the
>  activity around the project. 
I believe the reason for this has very little to do with the Freemedia
project or DVD distribution, although I understand why you would want
to raise questions about both initiatives - they seem like things
targeted at the 'less fortunate'.  The real reason seems to be to be
the fact that most people who receive this media are more intent on
solving their own problem (build something with it, like their college
assignment, replace the coaster that their neighbour stole, etc.) than
being involved in the project itself in any capacity.  A lot of times
they may use it for a project and then completely forget about it -
this was true 13 years ago when I was studying in college and saw
people around me use RHL/Debian for their projects and then forget
what ls did the very next day, so I don't see why that truth won't
prevail today.  The idea of software freedom is actually a much harder
sell in these regions than it is in NA/EMEA since the idea of Freedom
itself is not as well appreciated.

Siddhesh
-- 
http://siddhesh.in

[sankarshan]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 9:47 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar
<siddhesh.poyarekar(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  I believe the reason for this has very little to do with the
> Freemedia
>  project or DVD distribution, although I understand why you would want
>  to raise questions about both initiatives - they seem like things
>  targeted at the 'less fortunate'.  The real reason seems to be to be
>  the fact that most people who receive this media are more intent on
>  solving their own problem (build something with it, like their college
>  assignment, replace the coaster that their neighbour stole, etc.) than
>  being involved in the project itself in any capacity.  A lot of times
>  they may use it for a project and then completely forget about it -
>  this was true 13 years ago when I was studying in college and saw
>  people around me use RHL/Debian for their projects and then forget
>  what ls did the very next day, so I don't see why that truth won't
>  prevail today.  The idea of software freedom is actually a much harder
>  sell in these regions than it is in NA/EMEA since the idea of Freedom
>  itself is not as well appreciated. 
Firstly, thanks for writing in and thus providing a cue to bring up
something which has been specifically bothering me.

I brought up the topic of impact of DVD distribution to check if the
conversation would steer towards the assessment of impact of all the
activities which are planned and in the pipeline. DVDs as swag along
with stickers have become a sort of norm for the events. And I am
somewhat certain that they aren't actually used the way we think they
will be ie. people go home and install. A quick note would be around
the volume of DVD give-aways during FUDCon Pune and the general lack
of conversations on our forums. For what it is worth, I subscribe to a
reasonably large cross-section of mailing lists (around FOSS etc) from
around the country and I haven't read anyone seeking
help/guidance/assistance based on a give-away they received. Of
course, this is an anecdote of one and thus statistically irrelevant.
But I had hoped to be proven wrong and there was indeed a small (if
not growing) number of recipients of the DVDs who have installed and
are finding their new OS platform useful.

Now, why did I pick on Freemedia? Because the system provides us with
the ability to understand (and visualize) the regions where a good bit
of the DVDs are being shipped. 2 cycles ago I noticed a reasonably
high number of DVDs being asked from Jaipur and Gurgaon. That is just
one example based on a cursory perusal of the trac. It is possible
that we can simply look at the PIN codes and plan around FADs or,
introductory workshops in those regions. It will require funds to get
contributors there as well as the time from those volunteering.
However, it is also possible to do this in a manner which can be
re-used. As an example, introduction to use Project Atomic bits could
be structured into how to securely package your application and thus
include further 'gentle introduction' to security practices,
packaging, networking, compilers, tool-chain, build-tools etc. Given
the attention span of a student audience, learning something from the
MOOCs and designing content to be delivered is a good place to start.
This plan has the added benefit of expanding our existing community to
include technical authors, content writers, instructional designers,
embedded systems folks etc. It is possible to share knowledge in a
project oriented format which can result in skills and aptitude being
created which enable the audience to advance their careers. A small
number of the existing Fedora contributors from India have already
done lateral or, even major career shifts - this personal experience
is useful when designing something that can help the audience (of
mostly students).

It is my belief that while as a project and a community in India we
talk about "growing the community", it is our fiduciary duty to ensure
that new contributors and especially students can use bits from Fedora
as a platform to work on things and work with things for creation. The
economy around us is changing fast and the standard 'IT/CompSci'
course from an institute (even if very reputed) is no longer a good
hedge. If the project itself can figure out ways to address this
situation - we become useful. Is this easy? It is not. Is this hard?
You can absolutely take that for granted. Should we do this? I believe
we should. We could plan to start small. A minimum viable plan that
uses the least possible resources (time, volunteers and funds) to go
about this could be a generally safe place to start from.

Is this off-topic for this list? Perhaps. Why did I not write this up
early enough? Well, I did use my time at FUDCon Pune to speak about
this and I thought it was reasonably evident. Do I continue to insist
that Freemedia should be stopped? I'm not the one to demand that it be
stopped. My take is that if addressing the Freemedia tickets is
distracting a capable and competent volunteer from being useful in
other ways, we should perhaps take a look at how to address that
problem. Because that is an impediment worth removing.



-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<https://twitter.com/#!/sankarshan>

[P J P]

>  On Monday, 30 November 2015 7:14 PM, sankarshan wrote: 
>  The program itself does not allow adding a cost to the distribution
>  and recipient. If it did, the levying of a charge might indicate 
>  whether my conjecture is correct. 
  That's not freebie marketing, but selling DVDs. Besides, even if the
demand is because it's free, it helps Fedora to gain users/consumers
if they use it.

>  I wouldn't know. But I did forward a hypothesis that investing in
> the
>  program is a way to "contribute". The URL of the program clearly
>  indicates as such. My hypothesis further implied that considering that
>  "Freemedia is contribution enough" is an impediment to thinking around
>  the best ways to build, grow and sustain the community (and this time
>  I don't draw a line between participants and contributors) 

  I disagree. FreeMedia is freebie marketing. It should not stop us from
taking other initiatives to grow and sustain community. As said before
only reasonable expectation from Free DVDs is to gain user/consumer base.
Associating community growth and participation with it is wrong expectation.

 
>  But my question to this list is - is everyone content with merely
> that bit?
>  Or, do the readers think that something else could be done? 

  I guess they are quite occupied to take up larger initiatives for
community growth/participation. It would take much larger continuous
effort to build it.

 
>  My question was whether such a process was undertaken and how it can
>  help Fedora "in" India. 
  No, there was no process. As explained earlier, currently(so far)
our activities are running on quite ad-hoc basis. As and when volunteers
think of doing something. To take up big initiatives like community
building across India/APAC, it'd require much dedicated leadership
too to drive the volunteer base.
>  I can speak for myself when I say that you are conflating the topic.
>  The original question (which was kindly forked by Siddhesh) is in the
>  form - "what is the impact of distribution of DVDs; is that helping us
>  to grow the community; what can we do to expand the base of
>  contributors" 

Again, associating community growth with free DVD distribution is wrong.
For community growth/participation, we need other initiatives, ways of
engagement.


>  Stopping the distribution of DVDs via the Freemedia and seeking
>  volunteer help to create flows to help contributors is perhaps a way.
>  
>  Why do I think Freemedia needs to be stopped? Because as on date there
>  is exactly one volunteer for it and I strongly believe that his skills
>  should be freed up for coaching contributors. 

  IMO, it is up to him/her to decide that. If anything needs to be stopped
that is associating community growth/participation with the free media
distribution.


I disagree that FreeMedia distribution is stopping us from doing other
things. If it is, then that's a problem on our side, not with the
freemedia program.

>  That was the first (and probably the most daft) idea which I chanced
>  upon. There could be improvements or, even a different approach. 

 Certainly.

---
   -P J P
http://feedmug.com

[P J P]

>  On Tuesday, 1 December 2015 8:48 AM, sankarshan wrote:
>  It is possible that we can simply look at the PIN codes and plan
>  around FADs or, introductory workshops in those regions. It will
>  require funds to get contributors there as well as the time from
>  those volunteering. However, it is also possible to do this in a
>  manner which can be re-used. As an example, introduction to use
>  Project Atomic bits could be structured into how to securely
>  package your application and thus include further 'gentle introduction'
>  to security practices, packaging, networking, compilers, tool-chain,
>  build-tools etc. Given the attention span of a student audience,
>  learning something from the MOOCs and designing content to be
>  delivered is a good place to start. This plan has the added benefit
>  of expanding our existing community to include technical authors,
>  content writers, instructional designers, embedded systems folks etc.
>  It is possible to share knowledge in a project oriented format which
>  can result in skills and aptitude being created which enable the
>  audience to advance their careers. A small number of the existing
>  Fedora contributors from India have already done lateral or, even
>  major career shifts - this personal experience is useful when
>  designing something that can help the audience (of mostly students).
>
>  It is my belief that while as a project and a community in India we
>  talk about "growing the community", it is our fiduciary duty to ensure
>  that new contributors and especially students can use bits from Fedora
>  as a platform to work on things and work with things for creation. The
>  economy around us is changing fast and the standard 'IT/CompSci'
>  course from an institute (even if very reputed) is no longer a good
>  hedge. If the project itself can figure out ways to address this
>  situation - we become useful. Is this easy? It is not. Is this hard?
>  You can absolutely take that for granted. Should we do this? I believe
>  we should. We could plan to start small. A minimum viable plan that
>  uses the least possible resources (time, volunteers and funds) to go
>  about this could be a generally safe place to start from. 

It's all agreeable. Let's see how we could use it.
---
  -P J P
http://feedmug.com

[P J P]

Earlier today on '#fedora-ambassadors' channel


===
...

<deadrat> Hello friends,
<deadrat> My name is Jaiyabharat S from Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu. I am very interested
to join fedora project. I will be very grateful if I could get a mentor for joining Fedora
Ambassadors SIG.
<deadrat> My user page in Fedora Project Wiki is
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Deadrat
<deadrat> Thanks and Regards,
<deadrat> deadrat
<pjp> deadrat: Cool!
<pjp> deadrat: How did you get introduced to Fedora 2 yrs ago?
<deadrat> Hi PJP,
<deadrat> sorry for the very late reply .
<deadrat> pjp: I bought a laptop 3 years ago. I found out that the model I selected
got 3000 INR cheaper if I buy it without the default Operating system. So I asked them to
give it without Windows. Once I bought the laptop, I managed to get the copy of Windows
via some other source which is illegal. But I wasn't happy with Windows. Computer was
slow, Virus problems, and windows started bugging me to...
<deadrat> ...activate it. So that is when I heard about Debian, borrowed the DVD
from a friend,  and I loved it.
<deadrat> Then I requested for Ubuntu DVD and I used it for a short while, then BOSS
GNU/Linux for a short while.
<deadrat> Once I started trying out many options, I wanted to use the latest
options. I heard about fedora 17 with GNOME3 , but then I couldn't request for a DVD /
CD. So I downloaded it. It was the first distro I downloaded from internet and it took me
almost a week to download the ISO.
<deadrat> It was in Jan 2013 I guess when I downloaded and installed Fedora for the
first time.
<deadrat> pjp:  Then you know how it is. Once you start using it, you will start
loving it. (There were times when I went back to BOSS for a while;  I tried other options
and still I try many other distros, but fedora is my primary OS. )
<deadrat> Sorry, I have to go. It is already very late (I went for a movie, Mocking
Jay 2; that's why I couldn't reply to pjp ) and I have to get some sleep. Got to
get up for work in 4 hours. I'll be back tomorrow. My userpage in wiki has my contact
info. Thank you. Sorry if I spammed the channel with so many messages.
<pjp> deadrat: Hi,
<deadrat> Hi pjp
<pjp> deadrat: Nice story, thank you for sharing. 
<deadrat> pjp: Thank You.
<pjp> deadrat: What are you interested in doing? As in activities for Fedora?
<pjp> deadrat: Have you joined fedora-india list? Please do if you haven't
already -> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/india/
<deadrat> I don't know programming and stuff, so I have to stay out of main
thing - coding.  But I can answer some basic questions for users regarding Fedora OS. I
think I'm doing okay on that part in Ask Fedora. I think Fedora could use some
marketing ( I couldn't get the right word. ) there are lakhs  of people, who need a
solution like Fedora, but they are stuck
<deadrat> with some proprietary OS . I want to participate in any outreach program
to spread about Fedora. By word of mouth, I have helped several friends to set up Fedora
in their PC.
<pjp> deadrat: That's fantastic! Thank you so much for doing it!!
<pjp> deadrat: We are in the process of starting a new outreach program across APAC,
will let you know soon.
<pjp> deadrat: Please join the fedora-india list till then.
===


---  -P J P
http://feedmug.com