5:29 p.m.
> He's kind of slow on the draw if he just noticed that fedora
is a
> bleeding edge distribution and not particularly stable. New development
> has to be tested somewhere.
ESR has always been a lot of hot air. He's an attention whore.
He is some thing of a gas bag, isn't he. :D
I've had the misfortune of hearing him speak at our local LUG. Besides being the
most arrogant SOB I've met in my 37 years, he implied in his speech that he was
somehow responsible for the Linux revolution and apparently forcing all the
Fortune100 companies to switch to Linux.
Thank god he'll no longer claim to be a Fedora user. It's sort of the same thing
as
Hannibal Lechter or Jeffrey Dahmer being in your dining club.
--
* The Digital Hermit http://www.digitalhermit.com
* Unix and Linux Solutions kwan(a)digitalhermit.com
5:59 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Kwan Lowe wrote:
>> He's kind of slow on the draw if he just noticed that fedora is a
>> bleeding edge distribution and not particularly stable. New development
>> has to be tested somewhere.
>
> ESR has always been a lot of hot air. He's an attention whore.
>
He is some thing of a gas bag, isn't he. :D
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing
ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as
simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro
out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
Try converting winblows users to Fedora, but saying, oh but you cant play
mp3's out of the box...you can, but youll have to go toa unofficial
RH/Fedora repo and try install it, or do like I do and erase the players
RH bastardises, and grab the source and install it, now say that to a
newbie and you've lost em! First impression are ever lasting in this
game.
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy, I've never ever yet upgraded from
one version of RH or Fedora without conflicts, FC4 was a comple explosion,
I gave up and reinstalled previous and ignored FC4.
Yet I can do this with even slackware and have been able to for years,
with slapt-get I was able to upgrade without a drama a slackware 7 box
to a slackware 11.0!!, reboot and viola! all working.
I'll possibly for time being stick with Fedora for desktops,as I've used
them since early RH, but no way in bloody hell will it ever run on any
server in my data center, I'll stick with slackware there, last RH server I
decommisioned about 2 years ago was RH9, it was unbreakable, Fedora
is by design "bleeding edge" or is that "bleeding edge of blunders",
and
if we dont fix it soon, the likes of debian and suse will overtake us by a
long mile.
/end rant :P
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
6:24 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 09:59:03 AM +1000, Res (res(a)ausics.net) wrote:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is
losing
ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work,
"things to just work" and "bleeding edge by design" just cannot mix,
regardless of what one thinks of supporting proprietary codecs or not,
can they?
In this sense yes, Fedora is not, can not, and does not want to be the first
distribution for Windows refugees.
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy
This I cannot comment on. I've always installed each version from
scratch, because of all the horror upgrade stories I've been reading
(for any distro...) since the 90's...
Marco
--
The right way to make everybody love Free Standards and Free Software:
http://digifreedom.net/node/73
6:52 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, M. Fioretti wrote:
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 09:59:03 AM +1000, Res (res(a)ausics.net) wrote:
> Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing
> ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work,
"things to just work" and "bleeding edge by
design" just cannot mix,
They can, there is no reason at all, lets say a media player software
wont, well unless you bastardise it like Fedora does, once you start
ommitting parts of the authors original known working code, you no longer
have a working guarantee.
In this sense yes, Fedora is not, can not, and does not want to be
the first
distribution for Windows refugees.
Correct, unlike RedHat X.XX days. This is why Fedora has lost a very
significant hold of desktop.
> Secondly, the version upgrade is messy
This I cannot comment on. I've always installed each version from
scratch, because of all the horror upgrade stories I've been reading
(for any distro...) since the 90's...
I've had no problems in the 90's with slackware, since 2.0 at least.
though yes it was alot harder back in those days.
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
9:23 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 10:52 +1000, Res wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, M. Fioretti wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 09:59:03 AM +1000, Res (res(a)ausics.net) wrote:
>
>> Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing
>> ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work,
>
> "things to just work" and "bleeding edge by design" just cannot
mix,
They can, there is no reason at all, lets say a media player software
wont, well unless you bastardise it like Fedora does, once you start
ommitting parts of the authors original known working code, you no longer
have a working guarantee.
What has redhat bastardized?
They remove patent problem code from gstreamer-plugins.
That code is not even necessary if you disable the plugins at build
time.
> In this sense yes, Fedora is not, can not, and does not want to be the first
> distribution for Windows refugees.
Correct, unlike RedHat X.XX days. This is why Fedora has lost a very
significant hold of desktop.
There have always been other distros that grabbed marketshare by
attracting noobs and then faded. Ubuntu isn't fading as fast as I
thought it would, maybe it is here to stay, but Fedora in my experience
is a lot nicer than Red Hat was - even for noobs.
>> Secondly, the version upgrade is messy
Yes it is. I don't do it.
It's messy on Windows too. After applying SP2 on my laptop, I could not
boot. Had to go into rescue mode. Problem was a virus checker.
Upgrading has horror story scenarios on almost every OS.
This is why /home should be a separate LV by default - to allow for
clean installs. Installer should look at the rpm database of the
previous install, and as an option, have a clean install where the
installer selects whatever packages previously were installed that are
available.
Thus - user preserves /home data (and /srv data if that's separate) and
gets a clean install similar to their previous configuration.
3:42 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Michael A Peters wrote:
What has redhat bastardized?
They remove patent problem code from gstreamer-plugins.
That code is not even necessary if you disable the plugins at build
time.
xmms for starters, have not bothered trying audacious, but im sure they
removed part of the original authors code that plays mp3's etc as well in
that.
attracting noobs and then faded. Ubuntu isn't fading as fast as
I
thought it would, maybe it is here to stay, but Fedora in my experience
is a lot nicer than Red Hat was - even for noobs.
Call me ol school I dunno I prefered RedHat to Fedora
And Ubuntu wont fade when Fedora plays its current politics.
I have almost been tempted to try Ubuntu as some of my collegues say its
fantastic.
It's messy on Windows too. After applying SP2 on my laptop, I
could not
boot. Had to go into rescue mode. Problem was a virus checker.
Linux/Solaris user through and through, dont use win.
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
7:18 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
This I cannot comment on. I've always installed each version
from
scratch, because of all the horror upgrade stories I've been reading
(for any distro...) since the 90's...
linux.org.uk is running FC by update. Some of the boxes started off
somewhere around RH7.2 ..
There are certainly corner cases - notably when you've got stuff from non
RH repositories that the system thus can't update from CD during a CD
update - something the current FC work on extras merging and single CD is
going to finally sort.
Alan
9:21 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 01:24 +0100, M. Fioretti wrote:
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 09:59:03 AM +1000, Res (res(a)ausics.net) wrote:
> Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing
> ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work,
"things to just work" and "bleeding edge by design" just cannot mix,
regardless of what one thinks of supporting proprietary codecs or not,
can they?
The basics, the ones which should be tried and tested, should work,
no? The instability should be as one moves toward the edge. These are
not testing releases, bleeding edge or not.
Yes, I expect some difficulties. No, I don't expect major things to
break with each new release.
In this sense yes, Fedora is not, can not, and does not want to be
the first
distribution for Windows refugees.
Really? Back when RH moved to Fedora, it sure looked that way to me
(been using since RH 6.1, by the way). What were the alternatives -
Mandrake? Certainly Debian, Gentoo, Slackware, and such had reputations
that would discourage a casual user/experimenter. Suse? Maybe - but
I'm not going there now. My recollection, faulty though it may be, was
that Red Hat and Fedora were billing themselves as reasonable deskop
replacements. For *end* users. Ubuntu is looking better and better,
because they *are* taking end-users into account.
So what *does* Fedora want to be - the beta platform for RHEL? I don't
mind helping out, I don't mind filing bugs, but that is not the reason
why I use Linux on my machines. It's just not the purpose, and when my
installation is seen in that light I get a touch annoyed.
Mindshare is in the numbers of end-users; that's where the visibility
lies. And most end-users, still, use Windows. Do the math.
> Secondly, the version upgrade is messy
This I cannot comment on. I've always installed each version from
scratch, because of all the horror upgrade stories I've been reading
(for any distro...) since the 90's...
Marco
And here I thought things were supposed to be getting better. Silly me.
Like when the FC6 upgrade breaks the sound on my desktop. No
discernable cause, as far as I can tell - just no sound. FC6 LiveCD
gives me sound. Yes, I upgraded from FC5. Should I have reinstalled
from scratch? Technically, perhaps. Practically that's a non-starter.
It takes me far too long to bring everything back to a usable state (the
initial upgrade, updating to newest fixed packages, installing
everything I had before that was not in the upgrade, reconfiguring
everything) that it isn't worth my while to do this every 6 months.
Especially given the attitude I've seen toward people like me.
In another message someone suggested reading the current RPM database
before an reinstallation upgrade and making sure to install those
packages. That would eliminate a goodly amount of time from my upgrade
procedures, and a tremendous amount of pain. Ideally something would
detect my configurations for those programs and save them out somewhere,
but I'm not holding my breath.
-Don
1:22 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 10:21 -0500, Don Levey wrote:
In another message someone suggested reading the current RPM
database
before an reinstallation upgrade and making sure to install those
packages. That would eliminate a goodly amount of time from my upgrade
procedures, and a tremendous amount of pain. Ideally something would
detect my configurations for those programs and save them out somewhere,
but I'm not holding my breath.
I think it might be wise to consider the old Caldera notion of
using /opt to contain all the goodies that you post install and wish to
be left alone. Then you merely fresh install the core apps while
leaving /opt (and /home /root) alone. It's worth a thought. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net
================================================
1:27 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 14:22 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 10:21 -0500, Don Levey wrote:
> In another message someone suggested reading the current RPM database
> before an reinstallation upgrade and making sure to install those
> packages. That would eliminate a goodly amount of time from my upgrade
> procedures, and a tremendous amount of pain. Ideally something would
> detect my configurations for those programs and save them out somewhere,
> but I'm not holding my breath.
I think it might be wise to consider the old Caldera notion of
using /opt to contain all the goodies that you post install and wish to
be left alone. Then you merely fresh install the core apps while
leaving /opt (and /home /root) alone. It's worth a thought. Ric
--
That makes sense (assuming that /opt is a separate partition...). What
I'm thinking of, though, are RPMs that I've pulled off of official
repositories and installed, ones that aren't in the list of packages
presented during an install. Come to think of it, even if they *were*
presented during installation, that wouldn't be as useful as I'd still
need to go through the list to pick and choose.
What if... there were a way of going through the RPM database, creating
a list, and presenting that to some sort of kickstart routine?
-Don
2:40 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Don Levey wrote:
What if... there were a way of going through the RPM database,
creating
a list, and presenting that to some sort of kickstart routine?
I actually did something similar last time I upgraded.
Before I upgraded, I ran
rpm -qa --qf "%{name}.%{arch}\n" > packages
Afterwards,
for i in `cat packages` ; do rpm -q $i ; done | grep "is not installed"\
| cut -d\ -f2
presented me with a list of packages that were not installed that I
could have fed to yum.
I've never used kickstart (I've never had enough computers to upgrade at
once to make it worthwhile), but I understand that I could have just
given kickstart a list of those packages, now that you can enable other
repos at install time.
(Of course, this wouldn't help with renamed packages, but the --qf
option meant that "packages" didn't contain any version numbers, so the
script didn't try to install old versions of existing packages.)
Hope this helps,
James.
--
E-mail: james@ | If infinite rednecks fired infinite shotguns at an
aprilcottage.co.uk | infinite number of road signs, they'd eventually
| create all the great literary works of the world.
| In braille.
8:20 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 08:40 +0000, James Wilkinson wrote:
Don Levey wrote:
> What if... there were a way of going through the RPM database, creating
> a list, and presenting that to some sort of kickstart routine?
I actually did something similar last time I upgraded.
Before I upgraded, I ran
rpm -qa --qf "%{name}.%{arch}\n" > packages
Afterwards,
for i in `cat packages` ; do rpm -q $i ; done | grep "is not installed"\
| cut -d\ -f2
presented me with a list of packages that were not installed that I
could have fed to yum.
...
Hope this helps,
Yes it does - thanks! The next upgrade should be coming soon for me.
-Don
2:55 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 14:22 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
I think it might be wise to consider the old Caldera notion of
using /opt to contain all the goodies that you post install and wish to
be left alone. Then you merely fresh install the core apps while
leaving /opt (and /home /root) alone. It's worth a thought. Ric
/opt should really only be used for self contained bundles.
IE you could put something like TeXLive in /opt (and many universities
do just that) or Java in /opt etc.
Often it is /opt/vendor/product/version - so that multiple *self
contained* versions can be parallel installed.
If packages in /opt are installed by rpm then they need to use an rpm
database located on /opt that is not the system rpm database - at which
point, the benefits of using rpm pretty much disappear. A tarball with
an md5sum list is then more practical.
What would be *nice* would be if you could say -
rpm database A is system database.
rpm database B is /opt database.
Packages in B can have their dependencies filled by A but packages
installed in A can NOT have their dependencies filled by packages in B.
packages in B can not install files outside of /opt
Configuration option - packages in B can not install suid root binaries
(that's actually easy, both the outside of /opt and suid issue -
make /opt owned by a non root user that owns the rpm database and uses
rpm to install into that database - then the OS refuses to install suid
root files)
All that needs to happen for that to work now is rpm needs to be able to
check for dependency satisfaction in a database other than the target
database. I suppose library paths would be an issue for .so files - and
the users path would be an issue as well.
5:40 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 12:55 -0800, Michael A Peters wrote:
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 14:22 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
> I think it might be wise to consider the old Caldera notion of
> using /opt to contain all the goodies that you post install and wish to
> be left alone. Then you merely fresh install the core apps while
> leaving /opt (and /home /root) alone. It's worth a thought. Ric
/opt should really only be used for self contained bundles.
That is sideways what I
was getting out. Suppose I wanted to install
xmame and bunch of rom files. (arcade games) That could be considered a
bundle that I don't want tampered with?
IE you could put something like TeXLive in /opt (and many
universities
do just that) or Java in /opt etc.
I put java there myself, I see your point. Great
minds!
Often it is /opt/vendor/product/version - so that multiple *self
contained* versions can be parallel installed.
If packages in /opt are installed by rpm then they need to use an rpm
database located on /opt that is not the system rpm database - at which
point, the benefits of using rpm pretty much disappear. A tarball with
an md5sum list is then more practical.
What would be *nice* would be if you could say -
rpm database A is system database.
rpm database B is /opt database.
Packages in B can have their dependencies filled by A but packages
installed in A can NOT have their dependencies filled by packages in B.
packages in B can not install files outside of /opt
Configuration option - packages in B can not install suid root binaries
(that's actually easy, both the outside of /opt and suid issue -
make /opt owned by a non root user that owns the rpm database and uses
rpm to install into that database - then the OS refuses to install suid
root files)
Wow, you HAVE thought this through.
All that needs to happen for that to work now is rpm needs to be able
to
check for dependency satisfaction in a database other than the target
database. I suppose library paths would be an issue for .so files - and
the users path would be an issue as well.
IMHO that would be a saving grace for Fedora to do something like that.
It would sure save what hair I have left. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net
================================================
7:26 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is
losing
ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as
simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro
out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
Its called "US law".
Fedora really doesn't want to get sued for distributing mp3 tools if the
patent owners get cross, or say Microsoft buys the patent out from them
to cause trouble. Many of the other distributions aren't worth sueing
because they have no money anyway. Others seem to be hoping that
being registered in a tax haven in the UK and based notionally somewhere
in Africa can save them. They may even be right.
What actually has a hope of solving the MP3 problem is this sort of stuff
http://lwn.net/Articles/214421/
6:59 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
> Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is
losing
> ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as
> simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro
> out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
Its called "US law".
The U.S law does not apply to any other country ( contrary to what the U.S
likes to think ;) )
And if thats such a problem, like I said, why do none of the other distros
base in hte US stop providing...
to cause trouble. Many of the other distributions aren't worth
sueing
because they have no money anyway. Others seem to be hoping that
I dont believe that for a second. A large distro base like Slackware and
Debian offer them, and there name is as well known as RH's.
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
3:43 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Michael A Peters wrote:
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 10:59 +1000, Res wrote:
>
> I dont believe that for a second. A large distro base like Slackware and
> Debian offer them, and there name is as well known as RH's.
Neither of which is based in the US.
Red Hat is a US company.
HUH Slackware is based in the US. Do your homework before making silly
statements, Debian I was told was based in the US, one of its key founders
certainly is in California.
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
7:46 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
> Its called "US law".
The U.S law does not apply to any other country ( contrary to what the U.S
likes to think ;) )
Fedora is US based and therefore subject to US law. Furthermore the
question of whether a US organisation shipping bits abroad which are then
used abroad in a manner breaching US patent is currently before the
supreme court (Microsoft v AT&T).
In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is
committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
And if thats such a problem, like I said, why do none of the other
distros
base in hte US stop providing...
> to cause trouble. Many of the other distributions aren't worth sueing
> because they have no money anyway. Others seem to be hoping that
I dont believe that for a second. A large distro base like Slackware and
Debian offer them, and there name is as well known as RH's.
Slackware and Debian together aren't worth the cost of bringing the
lawsuit. Their total real world assets are worth peanuts.
Alan
8:26 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Today Alan did spake thusly:
>> Its called "US law".
>
> The U.S law does not apply to any other country ( contrary to what the U.S
> likes to think ;) )
Fedora is US based and therefore subject to US law. Furthermore the
question of whether a US organisation shipping bits abroad which are then
used abroad in a manner breaching US patent is currently before the
supreme court (Microsoft v AT&T).
In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is
committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
> And if thats such a problem, like I said, why do none of the other distros
> base in hte US stop providing...
>
>> to cause trouble. Many of the other distributions aren't worth sueing
>> because they have no money anyway. Others seem to be hoping that
>
> I dont believe that for a second. A large distro base like Slackware and
> Debian offer them, and there name is as well known as RH's.
Slackware and Debian together aren't worth the cost of bringing the
lawsuit. Their total real world assets are worth peanuts.
...and Ubuntu is registered in the Isle of Man and not a US company and so
can sort of get away with it
--
Scott van Looy - email:me@ethosuk.org.uk | web:www.ethosuk.org.uk
site:www.freakcity.net - the in place for outcasts since 2003
PGP Fingerprint: 7180 5543 C6C4 747B 7E74 802C 7CF9 E526 44D9 D4A7
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-------------------------------------------
Nice guys get sick.
11:07 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
...and Ubuntu is registered in the Isle of Man and not a US company
and so
can sort of get away with it
Ubuntu the company doesn't appear to be the company that owns/employs all
the people either, that seems to be a different company (presumably owned
by Ubuntu).
10:09 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Today Alan did spake thusly:
> ...and Ubuntu is registered in the Isle of Man and not a US
company and so
> can sort of get away with it
Ubuntu the company doesn't appear to be the company that owns/employs all
the people either, that seems to be a different company (presumably owned
by Ubuntu).
I can find out...a couple of the paid developers are mates... ;)
--
Scott van Looy - email:me@ethosuk.org.uk | web:www.ethosuk.org.uk
site:www.freakcity.net - the in place for outcasts since 2003
PGP Fingerprint: 7180 5543 C6C4 747B 7E74 802C 7CF9 E526 44D9 D4A7
-------------------------------------------
|/// /// /// /// WIDE LOAD /// /// /// ///|
-------------------------------------------
"Most people would like to be delivered from
temptation but would like it to keep in touch."
-- Robert Orben
5:29 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
> The U.S law does not apply to any other country ( contrary to
what the U.S
> likes to think ;) )
Fedora is US based and therefore subject to US law. Furthermore the
question of whether a US organisation shipping bits abroad which are then
used abroad in a manner breaching US patent is currently before the
supreme court (Microsoft v AT&T).
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries.
it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt
the damned coffee and realised that.
In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository
is
committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
I thought the US had a thing called the ammendement free speach or some
thing, I guess this does not extend to typed speach :)
Slackware and Debian together aren't worth the cost of bringing
the
lawsuit. Their total real world assets are worth peanuts.
So its all about $$$$$, fedora might have, 1 million users, debian and
slackware could have combined 2 million, and they wont give a damn
because neither of the other two make real money off it? LOL what a
complete joke. What about when debian overtakes fedora because of the
likes of this thread, what about when debian has 3 million users and
fedora 900K or less.
What about, say the authors of certain code licensed under GPL, taking
action against fedora for editing and distributing their code, unless a
hell of a lot of the programs in fedora are all now licensed under the
Creative Commons license, they shouldnt be doing so, in my opinion.
NOTE: I do not understand US law, I am not in US, nor am I subject to US
law so I dont really care too much for it, but it seems reasonable that
if threatened they could very easily be disolved in US and move to a more
legally sane and realistic country.
I guess what they say about the US is true "everybody sues everybody" :)
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
6:41 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries.
it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt
the damned coffee and realised that.
The US thinks differently. Its accused for example of simply removing
people from other countries to interrogate or torture. The Microsoft v
ATT case if you bother to read it is relevant because Red Hat is based in
the USA (as are many of the contributors).
> In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna
repository is
> committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
I thought the US had a thing called the ammendement free speach or some
thing, I guess this does not extend to typed speach :)
Nope - common misunderstanding - political speech not arbitary speech. So
your right to object is protected not your right to give the URL
law so I dont really care too much for it, but it seems reasonable
that
if threatened they could very easily be disolved in US and move to a more
legally sane and realistic country.
If you move it and it is doing things not legal in the US then US people
can't contribute.
I guess what they say about the US is true "everybody sues
everybody" :)
Yep.
5:53 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Alan wrote:
Nope - common misunderstanding - political speech not arbitary
speech. So
your right to object is protected not your right to give the URL
I assume that providing the URL of the source (or the actual source
code) is OK, as this is already been accepted as a form/expression of
"free speech" protected under US law right ?
Ref: http://www.epic.org/free_speech/
Albert.
7:01 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:53:45 +0000
Albert Graham <agraham(a)g-b.net> wrote:
Alan wrote:
> Nope - common misunderstanding - political speech not arbitary speech. So
> your right to object is protected not your right to give the URL
>
I assume that providing the URL of the source (or the actual source
code) is OK, as this is already been accepted as a form/expression of
"free speech" protected under US law right ?
Ref: http://www.epic.org/free_speech/
Probably not: See:
http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/MPAA_DVD_cases/?f=20020703_eff_2600_pr.html
6:05 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On 2/22/07, Alan <alan(a)lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:
> Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other
countries.
> it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt
> the damned coffee and realised that.
The US thinks differently. Its accused for example of simply removing
people from other countries to interrogate or torture. The Microsoft v
ATT case if you bother to read it is relevant because Red Hat is based in
the USA (as are many of the contributors).
> > In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is
> > committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
>
> I thought the US had a thing called the ammendement free speach or some
> thing, I guess this does not extend to typed speach :)
Nope - common misunderstanding - political speech not arbitary speech. So
your right to object is protected not your right to give the URL
> law so I dont really care too much for it, but it seems reasonable that
> if threatened they could very easily be disolved in US and move to a more
> legally sane and realistic country.
If you move it and it is doing things not legal in the US then US people
can't contribute.
> I guess what they say about the US is true "everybody sues everybody" :)
Yep.
Things are apparently more bleak than I thought. I find this
surprisingly depressing.
--
Fedora Core 6 and proud
7:39 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
> Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other
countries.
> it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt
> the damned coffee and realised that.
The US thinks differently. Its accused for example of simply removing
people from other countries to interrogate or torture. The Microsoft v
ATT case if you bother to read it is relevant because Red Hat is based in
the USA (as are many of the contributors).
Well, there are other distros around, like I said, people are ignorant,
they dont care, they just want to play it, if something doesnt do it out
the box, they go elsewhere.
And if I get a rainy weekend maybe I'll have a read of the AT&T case, one
month.
If you move it and it is doing things not legal in the US then US
people
can't contribute.
Then the US is forcing it to become an outsider by its lack of common
sense. But we all know RH wont move offshore, so RH has enshrined a
setback policy, deterring new linux converts.
Things like this dont really worry me too much, because I often remove a
lot of the packages (incl kernel) and install from source. But its a
shame things are going down this road, a few years ago nobody dare
mention, say debian in this country, now, its more prevailant then Fedora,
and you wonder why.
If I want my OS distributor to tell me how I'm going to use the programs
I'll dump all my linux (and solaris) boxes and run winblows.
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
6:44 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 09:29 +1000, Res wrote:
the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the
world govt/world police
Are you going to tell them, or am I... ;-) I'm just waiting for them
to change the name of the country, accordingly. i.e. The People's
Democratic Republic of America.
--
(This box runs FC6, my others run FC4 & FC5, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
7:06 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:14:44AM +1030, Tim wrote:
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 09:29 +1000, Res wrote:
> the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the
> world govt/world police
Are you going to tell them, or am I... ;-) I'm just waiting for them
to change the name of the country, accordingly. i.e. The People's
Democratic Republic of America.
That, and an accurate re-write of the Constitution, which would say:
"The President may do anything he damn well please. Congress shall
supinely and obsequiously vote him the money and authority to do
it. The Courts shall similarly rubber stamp the frst two."
--
Charles Curley /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
Looking for fine software \ / Respect for open standards
and/or writing? X No HTML/RTF in email
http://www.charlescurley.com / \ No M$ Word docs in email
Key fingerprint = CE5C 6645 A45A 64E4 94C0 809C FFF6 4C48 4ECD DFDB
7:30 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote:
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 09:29 +1000, Res wrote:
> the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the
> world govt/world police
Are you going to tell them, or am I... ;-) I'm just waiting for them
to change the name of the country, accordingly. i.e. The People's
Democratic Republic of America.
LOL
and...
If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the
very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they
will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when
my country became a legal territory of America. :)
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
9:06 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000,
Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote:
If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the
very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they
will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when
my country became a legal territory of America. :)
Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send to Syria
for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to
torture you.
9:39 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000,
Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote:
>If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the
>very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they
>will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when
>my country became a legal territory of America. :)
When the Constitution of these USA was ratified, the Federal Govt
was given authority to govern your land and exercise authority
over it in certain respects and by certain means.
Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send
to Syria
for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to
torture you.
Yep. Well, AFAIK the CIA doesn't do that, but our Armed Forces do.
Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
11:01 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Mike McCarty wrote:
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000,
> Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote:
>> If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel
>> the very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me,
>> they will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date
>> when my country became a legal territory of America. :)
When the Constitution of these USA was ratified, the Federal Govt
was given authority to govern your land and exercise authority
over it in certain respects and by certain means.
> Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send
> to Syria
> for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to
> torture you.
Yep. Well, AFAIK the CIA doesn't do that, but our Armed Forces do.
Mike
Think again. The Italians have charged 26 CIA agents with kidnapping
in Italy. The victim was an Islamic cleric who was sent to Egypt and
reportedly tortured.
John
11:11 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
John Wendel wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
> Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000,
>> Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote:
>>> If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel
>>> the very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon
>>> me, they will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and
>>> date when my country became a legal territory of America. :)
>
>
> When the Constitution of these USA was ratified, the Federal Govt
> was given authority to govern your land and exercise authority
> over it in certain respects and by certain means.
>
>> Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send
>> to Syria
>> for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to
>> torture you.
>
>
> Yep. Well, AFAIK the CIA doesn't do that, but our Armed Forces do.
>
> Mike
Think again. The Italians have charged 26 CIA agents with kidnapping in
Umm, not a matter of "think", it's a matter of "knowlege".
"AFAIK", doncha know.
Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
11:23 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Mike McCarty wrote:
John Wendel wrote:
> Mike McCarty wrote:
>
>> Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000,
>>> Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote:
>>>> If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel
>>>> the very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon
>>>> me, they will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and
>>>> date when my country became a legal territory of America. :)
>>
>>
>> When the Constitution of these USA was ratified, the Federal Govt
>> was given authority to govern your land and exercise authority
>> over it in certain respects and by certain means.
>>
>>> Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send
>>> to Syria
>>> for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to
>>> torture you.
>>
>>
>> Yep. Well, AFAIK the CIA doesn't do that, but our Armed Forces do.
>>
>> Mike
>
>
> Think again. The Italians have charged 26 CIA agents with kidnapping in
Umm, not a matter of "think", it's a matter of "knowlege".
"AFAIK", doncha know.
Mike
Sorry, you're absolutely correct. I also lack any real "knowledge"
about this subject and should just shut up.
Regards,
John
11:38 a.m.
New subject: NO CARRIER
> Umm, not a matter of "think", it's a matter of
"knowlege".
> "AFAIK", doncha know.
Sorry, you're absolutely correct. I also lack any real "knowledge" about
this subject and should just shut up.
By definition dark deeds are done in the dark...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
-Andy
5:05 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Mike McCarty wrote:
When the Constitution of these USA was ratified, the Federal Govt
was given authority to govern your land and exercise authority
over it in certain respects and by certain means.
OK, then I declare as at the time and date of this message in UTC, I
posses governing rights over all states and territories of america :)
*holds about as much standing as the US has over the country... so what
the hell LOL :P
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
5:02 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000,
Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote:
> If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the
> very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they
> will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when
> my country became a legal territory of America. :)
Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send to Syria
for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to
torture you.
hahahaha yeah :) with the pending change of govt here they wouldnt get
away with it like lil johnny howard is letting things drag on.
Just like for 5 years our govt has allowed the US to detain an as yet
to-be-tried alledged terrorist who is still legally an Australian citizen,
I couldnt give a damn about it, but try him, if hes guilty of terrorist
activities the US can execute the bastard for all i care, but lets have a
verdict, see the evidence and be done with it. It's all good and great to
say we have the evidence, well time to STFU and put up I think.
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
9:02 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 09:29:47 +1000,
Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries.
it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt
the damned coffee and realised that.
Unfortunately for the rest of the world, it can because it has the largest
military and a number of other counties' leaders are willing to make deals
when promised access to the US econmy (thiugh they seem to usually end up
getting screwed when they do this).
>In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna
repository is
>committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
The supreme court hasn't ruled on this yet, so there is hope the right case
might get a different answer. 2600 was not seen as a favorable party in
the case and the trial judge was biased. The whole idea that decss actually
stopped real piracy was rediculus as real pirates just make bit for bit
copies of the DVDs.
NOTE: I do not understand US law, I am not in US, nor am I subject to
US
law so I dont really care too much for it, but it seems reasonable that
if threatened they could very easily be disolved in US and move to a more
legally sane and realistic country.
Most likely US corporate interests have influenced your country's laws.
For example if you are in the EU, members are supposed to be enacting DMCA
like laws. Software patents could still end up being forced upon EU members
as well.
9:27 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 09:29:47 +1000,
Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
>
>Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries.
>it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt
>the damned coffee and realised that.
Unfortunately for the rest of the world, it can because it has the largest
Fortunately or unfortunately, as one's viewpoint is.
The Federal Govt of the USA has jurisdiction over the entire
face of the Earth except within the States, because the US Constitution
says so. That's how the US Govt arrested Manuel Noriega.
[snip]
Most likely US corporate interests have influenced your country's
laws.
For example if you are in the EU, members are supposed to be enacting DMCA
like laws. Software patents could still end up being forced upon EU members
as well.
We really need to repeal (at least portions of) the DMCA. It won't be
long, I trow. The RIAA fought tooth and nail to prevent radio stations
from playing music. When the RIAA and corresponding TV (forget the
acronym) and movie associations figure out how to make money from
easily available stuff, then we'll see the end of encryption, region
codes, etc. on their own.
Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
5:48 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
From: "Mike McCarty" <Mike.McCarty(a)sbcglobal.net>
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 09:29:47 +1000,
> Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
>>
>>Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries.
>>it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt
>>the damned coffee and realised that.
>
> Unfortunately for the rest of the world, it can because it has the
> largest
Fortunately or unfortunately, as one's viewpoint is.
The Federal Govt of the USA has jurisdiction over the entire
face of the Earth except within the States, because the US Constitution
says so. That's how the US Govt arrested Manuel Noriega.
[snip]
> Most likely US corporate interests have influenced your country's laws.
> For example if you are in the EU, members are supposed to be enacting
> DMCA
> like laws. Software patents could still end up being forced upon EU
> members
> as well.
We really need to repeal (at least portions of) the DMCA. It won't be
long, I trow. The RIAA fought tooth and nail to prevent radio stations
from playing music. When the RIAA and corresponding TV (forget the
acronym) and movie associations figure out how to make money from
easily available stuff, then we'll see the end of encryption, region
codes, etc. on their own.
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
Then FOAD.
{^_^}
7:22 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
*yawn*
I had not realised this list had so many self appointed moderator
wannabies, nobody holds a gun at your head making you read the thread.
so no, you fuck off and die!
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, jdow wrote:
From: "Mike McCarty" <Mike.McCarty(a)sbcglobal.net>
> Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>> On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 09:29:47 +1000,
>> Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries.
>>> it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt
>>> the damned coffee and realised that.
>>
>> Unfortunately for the rest of the world, it can because it has the
>> largest
>
> Fortunately or unfortunately, as one's viewpoint is.
>
> The Federal Govt of the USA has jurisdiction over the entire
> face of the Earth except within the States, because the US Constitution
> says so. That's how the US Govt arrested Manuel Noriega.
>
> [snip]
>
>> Most likely US corporate interests have influenced your country's laws.
>> For example if you are in the EU, members are supposed to be enacting DMCA
>> like laws. Software patents could still end up being forced upon EU
>> members
>> as well.
>
> We really need to repeal (at least portions of) the DMCA. It won't be
> long, I trow. The RIAA fought tooth and nail to prevent radio stations
> from playing music. When the RIAA and corresponding TV (forget the
> acronym) and movie associations figure out how to make money from
> easily available stuff, then we'll see the end of encryption, region
> codes, etc. on their own.
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
Then FOAD.
{^_^}
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
6:55 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 15:48 -0800, jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
I think Italy is a better country. Watch this one and see for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4KlwFovFUo&NR
<eyebrow waggles> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net
================================================
5:19 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
4:21 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
--
=======================================================================
Never use "etc." -- it makes people think there is more where there is
not or that there is not space to list it all, etc.
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
jdow wrote:
> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do
watch this video first.
>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
10:15 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
> jdow wrote:
>
>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first.
>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
>>
> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
>
> Mike
>
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/
recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good
America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
/not/ have come to pass?
Temlakos
10:24 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
>
>> jdow wrote:
>>
>>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video
first.
>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
>>>
>> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
>> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
>>
>> Mike
>>
> I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
> Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good
America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
/not/ have come to pass?
----
this is not a political discussion forum - take it elsewhere.
Craig
11:12 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Craig White wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
> Aaron Konstam wrote:
>> On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
>>
>>> jdow wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video
first.
>>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
>>>>
>>> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
>>> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>> I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
>> Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
> Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good
> America has been in this world.
>
> I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
> for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
> President of the United States.
>
> Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
> deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
> /not/ have come to pass?
----
this is not a political discussion forum - take it elsewhere.
Craig
+1
--
David
11:27 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
David Boles wrote:
Craig White wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
>
>> Aaron Konstam wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> jdow wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this
video first.
>>>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
>>>> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
>>> Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
>>>
>> Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good
>> America has been in this world.
>>
>> I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
>> for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
>> President of the United States.
>>
>> Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
>> deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
>> /not/ have come to pass?
>>
> ----
> this is not a political discussion forum - take it elsewhere.
>
> Craig
>
>
+1
+1
--
~~ Richard L. England rlengland (at)verizon(dot)net "
The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those who have
not got it."
- G.B. Shaw
10:33 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
>>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do
watch this video first.
>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
> I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would
make the
> Bush administration proud .
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
/not/ have come to pass?
A world without Linux would be...(fill in the blank)[obviously a less
good place]
Does this mean we should stop trying to improve Linux?
Logical consistency would argue you are saying yes [ie. because
something has done well, that means it escapes criticism]. I say no.
America has done well. Can it not do better? Perhaps you say no. I
say yes. I think it needs to really, for it's own sake.
Same with M$ft. Should people just accept the way it is because it has
done well, or should they look for a superior alternative? It depends I
guess on how you define "well".
You like Bush. My standards are higher. This does not mean I don't
agree with you. It's just that my standards are higher.
10:45 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
javajunkie wrote:
>>>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do
watch this video first.
>>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
>>>>
>> I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
>> Bush administration proud .
>>
> I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
> for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
> President of the United States.
>
> Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
> deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
> /not/ have come to pass?
>
A world without Linux would be...(fill in the blank)[obviously a less
good place]
Does this mean we should stop trying to improve Linux?
Logical consistency would argue you are saying yes [ie. because
something has done well, that means it escapes criticism]. I say no.
America has done well. Can it not do better? Perhaps you say no. I
say yes. I think it needs to really, for it's own sake.
Same with M$ft. Should people just accept the way it is because it has
done well, or should they look for a superior alternative? It depends I
guess on how you define "well".
You like Bush. My standards are higher. This does not mean I don't
agree with you. It's just that my standards are higher.
Your question is incomplete. I don't know what your "standards"
mean. I
don't know what /you/ would consider "an improvement."
Temlakos
11:17 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Temlakos wrote:
>>
> I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
> Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good
America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
/not/ have come to pass?
Temlakos
Since when the Fedora project is a political discussion forum? I do not
care for who you voted for or will vote for, there are non-americans
here, you seem to have overlooked this too.
Take this elsewhere!
- --
(o< Thierry Sayegh De Bellis, RHCE
//\ http://glossolalie.com
V_/_ Fingerprint: 9976 11FE D9C6 8C67 6242 7BB1 6466 3F1D 56ED 7D5A
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9:04 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
>
>> jdow wrote:
>>
>>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video
first.
>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
>>>
>> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
>> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
>>
>> Mike
>>
> I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
> Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good
America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
/not/ have come to pass?
Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net
================================================
10:55 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora -OT
> Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
>
I'll give you this much: Australia would have given it the good old
college try. I'm not likely to forget the Aussie's part in the Pacific
theater of WWII.
How is this linux related?
Really how?
If you want to discuss how American actions around 1868 destabilized the
Japanese government allowing those more militarily minded to take power
with the promise that Japan would never become Hong Kong...
Granted we were kind enough to drop nukes on civilians for good measure
before kindly establishing democracy.
Yeah sure my family members were in the U.S. navy at the time and I am
lucky to even be alive. Maybe the nukes even gave me life by stopping
the fighting and sparing my grandfather. And if the nukes would have
been on Tokyo, I wouldn't be here today.
It's not untrue though to say the whole thing could have been prevented
by both sides. Why don't you take the political cheering elsewhere.
You can be proud of the body count should you so choose. I'd prefer
there wasn't one because if either side had been a little more lethal, I
would not get to enjoy fedora.
11:19 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora -OT
On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 13:55 +0900, javajunkie wrote:
> > Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
> >
> I'll give you this much: Australia would have given it the good old
> college try. I'm not likely to forget the Aussie's part in the Pacific
> theater of WWII.
How is this linux related?
Really how?
If you want to discuss how American actions around 1868 destabilized the
Japanese government allowing those more militarily minded to take power
with the promise that Japan would never become Hong Kong...
Granted we were kind enough to drop nukes on civilians for good measure
before kindly establishing democracy.
Yeah sure my family members were in the U.S. navy at the time and I am
lucky to even be alive. Maybe the nukes even gave me life by stopping
the fighting and sparing my grandfather. And if the nukes would have
been on Tokyo, I wouldn't be here today.
It's not untrue though to say the whole thing could have been prevented
by both sides. Why don't you take the political cheering elsewhere.
You can be proud of the body count should you so choose. I'd prefer
there wasn't one because if either side had been a little more lethal, I
would not get to enjoy fedora.
----
I am an American.
I could have commented on the video but didn't think it appropriate for
this list.
I could have commented on the concept that people actually voted for
George W Bush but didn't think it appropriate for this list.
I could comment on the concept that this great nation is the only one
who has actually employed nuclear weapons, continues to detain prisoners
in stealth but didn't think it appropriate for this list.
Those who are not living in America should note that not all of us who
do, embrace the referenced movie, this president, some of our past and
current misdeeds but in the end, this discussion isn't appropriate for
this list.
Craig
8:48 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 22:04 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
> Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
> >
> >> jdow wrote:
> >>
> >>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video
first.
> >>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
> >>>
> >> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
> >> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> > I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
> > Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
> Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good
> America has been in this world.
>
> I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
> for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
> President of the United States.
>
> Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
> deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
> /not/ have come to pass?
Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
Well here is the thing. I am a Jew. I ma proud of the high percentage of
Nobel Prize winners are Jews. But I would embarrassed and repelled by a
video that took the same attitude about Jews that the video took about
America. That is, thinks that would not have happened if the Jews did
not exist I mean. The video was arrogant and self-serving. And is
certainly OT for this list.
--
=======================================================================
One Bell System - it sometimes works.
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
9:25 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 22:04 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
>> Aaron Konstam wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
>>>
>>>> jdow wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this
video
first.
>>>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
>>>>>
>>>> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
>>>> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>> I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
>>> Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
>> Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good
>> America has been in this world.
>>
>> I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
>> for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
>> President of the United States.
>>
>> Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
>> deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
>> /not/ have come to pass?
>
> Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
Well here is the thing. I am a Jew. I ma proud of the high percentage of
Nobel Prize winners are Jews. But I would embarrassed and repelled by a
video that took the same attitude about Jews that the video took about
America. That is, thinks that would not have happened if the Jews did
not exist I mean. The video was arrogant and self-serving. And is
certainly OT for this list.
--
=======================================================================
One Bell System - it sometimes works.
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
Aaron:
I quite agree with you. This video goes way too far! but as a
favor, can we Puhleeeeese let this thread die! If I really cared about
anyone's opinion but mine, I would surely find them out and we could
have a real good time patting ourselves on the back for the actions of
our ancestors.
Scott
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9:57 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora <OT>
On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 07:25 -0800, oldman wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 22:04 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
>> On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
>>> Aaron Konstam wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> jdow wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this
video
first.
>>>>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
>>>>>>
>>>>> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want)
installed.
>>>>> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>> I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
>>>> Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
>>> Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good
>>> America has been in this world.
>>>
>>> I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
>>> for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
>>> President of the United States.
>>>
>>> Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
>>> deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
>>> /not/ have come to pass?
>>
>> Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
>
> Well here is the thing. I am a Jew. I ma proud of the high percentage of
> Nobel Prize winners are Jews. But I would embarrassed and repelled by a
> video that took the same attitude about Jews that the video took about
> America. That is, thinks that would not have happened if the Jews did
> not exist I mean. The video was arrogant and self-serving. And is
> certainly OT for this list.
> --
> =======================================================================
> One Bell System - it sometimes works.
> =======================================================================
> Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
>
Aaron:
I quite agree with you. This video goes way too far! but as a
favor, can we Puhleeeeese let this thread die! If I really cared about
anyone's opinion but mine, I would surely find them out and we could
have a real good time patting ourselves on the back for the actions of
our ancestors.
Mine probably didn't pay their tab back in Ireland and got tossed ashore
here. :) Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net
================================================
9:53 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora <OT>
On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 08:48 -0600, Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 22:04 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
> > Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
> > >
> > >> jdow wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this
video first.
> > >>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
> > >>>
> > >> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want)
installed.
> > >> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
> > >>
> > >> Mike
> > >>
> > > I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the
> > > Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
> > Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good
> > America has been in this world.
> >
> > I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote
> > for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as
> > President of the United States.
> >
> > Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you
> > deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would
> > /not/ have come to pass?
>
>
> Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
Well here is the thing. I am a Jew. I ma proud of the high percentage of
Nobel Prize winners are Jews. But I would embarrassed and repelled by a
video that took the same attitude about Jews that the video took about
America. That is, thinks that would not have happened if the Jews did
not exist I mean. The video was arrogant and self-serving. And is
certainly OT for this list.
Same thing about Stallman. He did a good and Right Thing (tm) but to ram
"GNU-Linux" down everyone's throat, like he counts and Linus eats worms,
jerks me off no end.
Everyone kindly append <OT> to remain socially polite. :) Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net
================================================
3:21 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Seg, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
>
> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first.
>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
There's an user script for greasemonkey that changes youtube pages in
order to let you use mplayerplugin for viewing inside the browser.
There's also a few firefox extensions that allow you to download the
video, and then you can play it with mplayer!
I hate flash video, but at least with this options I'm not "out of the
loop" :)
Rui
--
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?
10:45 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 09:21 +0000, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
On Seg, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
> jdow wrote:
> >
> > It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first.
> >
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
>
> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
>
> Mike
There's an user script for greasemonkey that changes youtube pages in
order to let you use mplayerplugin for viewing inside the browser.
There's also a few firefox extensions that allow you to download the
video, and then you can play it with mplayer!
I hate flash video, but at least with this options I'm not "out of the
loop" :)
Rui
Hi, Rui,
What is that script for firefox, or where can I obtain it? I'm sorry if
I missed it somewhere, but I don't recall seeing it mentioned before.
Regards,
Les H
1:11 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Les wrote:
On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 09:21 +0000, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
> On Seg, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
>> jdow wrote:
>>> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video
first.
>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyo...
>> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed.
>> So, sorry, I can't watch it.
>>
>> Mike
> There's an user script for greasemonkey that changes youtube pages in
> order to let you use mplayerplugin for viewing inside the browser.
>
> There's also a few firefox extensions that allow you to download the
> video, and then you can play it with mplayer!
>
> I hate flash video, but at least with this options I'm not "out of the
> loop" :)
>
> Rui
>
Hi, Rui,
What is that script for firefox, or where can I obtain it? I'm sorry if
I missed it somewhere, but I don't recall seeing it mentioned before.
Regards,
Les H
I don't know about the greasemonkey script (it should be found at
greasemonkey.com and you'd need to install the greasemonkey Firefox
extension too) but there is a Firefox extension called video downloader
that you can get by going to the extensions page at mozilla.org and
finding the "most popular/most downloaded extensions".
Scott
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4:55 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 09:29:47 +1000,
Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
>
> Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries.
> it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt
> the damned coffee and realised that.
Unfortunately for the rest of the world, it can because it has the largest
military and a number of other counties' leaders are willing to make deals
when promised access to the US econmy (thiugh they seem to usually end up
getting screwed when they do this).
Oh I agree the recent FTA between US and Australia is purely in americas
favour and sweet F-ALL for Australians, I am disgusted the Australian
Govt signed the deal. I don't deal with US and wont until they 'fair up'
However the FTA does no require me to bow down to US law.
Imagine the nightmare... every person of every country would have to know
the laws of every other country, including those 500 population countries
nobody has ever heard of, just so they wont infringe, uh no way...
>> In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is
>> committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
Thats a resident of US, I'm not :)
If I did that, the worse that could happen, in US is that a US court could
order any post I made that is located on a US server be removed from the
US server, they cant order removal from a EU or AU one.
Most likely US corporate interests have influenced your country's
laws.
For example if you are in the EU, members are supposed to be enacting DMCA
like laws. Software patents could still end up being forced upon EU members
as well.
Australian laws are based on the UK system, precendences set in the UK
courts have far greater weight then precendences set in US and have done
so for many years, apart from the FTA which obviously was a suck deal to
keep someone happy about something, the rest was a joke to advantage US
and I cant wait for a change in Govt (likely this year) to fix the wrong
doings (since the opposition was completely against it).
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
8:09 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 01:26 +0000, Alan wrote:
What actually has a hope of solving the MP3 problem is this sort of
stuff
http://lwn.net/Articles/214421/
I wonder about the converse: What happens when some US company wants to
make/sell/whatever something that was patented outside of the US, do
they do the right thing, or forge ahead doing whatever they feel like?
--
(This box runs FC6, my others run FC4 & FC5, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
8:05 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 09:59 +1000, Res wrote:
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy, I've never ever yet
upgraded
from one version of RH or Fedora without conflicts, FC4 was a comple
explosion, I gave up and reinstalled previous and ignored FC4.
I'd have to say that's a dicey thing to do on other OSs, as well.
Windows included.
--
(This box runs FC6, my others run FC4 & FC5, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
9:06 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Tim wrote:
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 09:59 +1000, Res wrote:
> Secondly, the version upgrade is messy, I've never ever yet upgraded
> from one version of RH or Fedora without conflicts, FC4 was a comple
> explosion, I gave up and reinstalled previous and ignored FC4.
I'd have to say that's a dicey thing to do on other OSs, as well.
Windows included.
Macs do a nice trick. Aside from upgrading the same machine, if you buy
a new Mac can connect your old one via firewire, boot it as a firewire
target (they all do that) and it will migrate all your old settings
(users/passwords etc.) and programs over. A new Intel Mac will even
migrate older PPC programs over and continue to run them. That's a
tough act to follow.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
9:52 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On 22/02/2007, at 2:06 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
Macs do a nice trick. Aside from upgrading the same machine, if you
buy a new Mac can connect your old one via firewire, boot it as a
firewire target (they all do that) and it will migrate all your old
settings (users/passwords etc.) and programs over. A new Intel Mac
will even migrate older PPC programs over and continue to run
them. That's a tough act to follow.
I wish you hadn't said this, it makes me butt in to a thread
everybody has stopped reading anyway...
I have a lot of respect for ESR, he's been one of the most vocal and
influential campaigners of Linux, and open source in general. I think
we (the open source community) do owe him a fair share of our current
status and credibility.
It makes me sad to see a letter like this from him. It was clearly
written in a state of anger, and lacks all of his usual eloquence and
sharp logic. He obviously got fed up to a bursting point.
I'm not going to even mention any of his particular arguments (other
than saying that RPM is brilliant, just rule in those sloppy
packagers), however I must say I've been harbouring doubts about the
future of Red Hat and Fedora myself. I can't really point my finger
at anything specific, but let me start by saying that I've been a
Linux-only user for about 13 years, much of that with RH/FC. And so
has most of my household. In the past couple of years this turf has
been invaded from two sides, though.
Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with
OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck-up
and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my
Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel
comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
Secondly, the desktops. I've immensely enjoyed the Linux game, making
the impossible happen, sticking it up to them (you know who), even
playing as an equal in a corporate Windows/Exchange environment. It
had cost me a lot of time and sweat but it was worth it.
I'm getting older though, my days seem to get shorter and I need to
get stuff done. There isn't a lot of time for tinkering and fixing
stuff on the spot anymore. I needed something that just works most of
the time, without debugging. I've become a user, and as such joined
the rest of my family. My family had morphed into a Mac OS X
community some time ago (Linux was too hard and Windows was out of
the question), so I finally joined them and am now using Tiger on a
Mac as my primary desktop.
After those two invasions I'm still running Linux on my corporate
desktop at work and on a few servers at home, and don't intent to
change that. But for day-to-day desktop/media/end-user stuff I've
pretty much given up on Linux. Now, you could blame that on Fedora,
but I don't think it would have turned out any different if I had
been using another distro. In the end, user experience wins, and
Apple appears to be the only player that fully groks this.
Of course, Apple have an unfair advantage, they make their own
hardware...
Please don't take this post as a pro-Apple rant, I was just trying to
express that people (other than just ESR) can become frustrated at
various aspects of a home computing environment that doesn't give the
user a star to steer by but seems to be chaotic and rudderless all
the time. I will certainly keep open-minded and closely follow the
Fedora project.
Cheers
Steffen.
10:07 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Steffen Kluge wrote:
On 22/02/2007, at 2:06 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
[snip]
Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with
OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck-up and
hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my Linux
boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel comfortable
anymore to put them in the first line.
You can make this same criticism for any of the *NIX like OS groups,
though things are improving. *NIX with its cryptic, often only two
letter commands, and command switches no two of which look similar
to each other, *breeds* guru mentality.
[snip]
I'm getting older though, my days seem to get shorter and I need
to get
stuff done. There isn't a lot of time for tinkering and fixing stuff on
the spot anymore. I needed something that just works most of the time,
without debugging. I've become a user, and as such joined the rest of
In short, fiddling with an OS is not a hobby for you, nor for many.
Linux, in general, is for fiddlers and those for whom such fiddling
is a hobby. I have worked on and supported and written enough OS
that fiddling with OS is not something that interests me any more,
either. Fedora is the most extreme of the Linux in this respect.
If installing and fiddling is not your "thing", then Fedora is not
for you.
[snip]
After those two invasions I'm still running Linux on my corporate
desktop at work and on a few servers at home, and don't intent to
change that. But for day-to-day desktop/media/end-user stuff I've
pretty much given up on Linux. Now, you could blame that on Fedora, but
I don't think it would have turned out any different if I had been
using another distro. In the end, user experience wins, and Apple
appears to be the only player that fully groks this.
I'm not so sure about that. My girlfriend, at my suggestion, is running
Debian, and it works well enough, and is stable enough.
Of course, Apple have an unfair advantage, they make their own
hardware...
Well, they *market* their own hardware.
Please don't take this post as a pro-Apple rant, I was just
trying to
express that people (other than just ESR) can become frustrated at
various aspects of a home computing environment that doesn't give the
user a star to steer by but seems to be chaotic and rudderless all the
time. I will certainly keep open-minded and closely follow the Fedora
project.
Linux has one really big flaw in one sense...
It has no rudder at all. Linux is not a product. Some distros
attempt to be somewhat a product. Fedora makes no bones about
it: Fedora Core is NOT A PRODUCT, IT IS A PROJECT.
Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
11:42 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On 24/02/2007, at 3:07 AM, Mike McCarty wrote:
> Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with
> OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck-
> up and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security
> patches my Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't
> feel comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
You can make this same criticism for any of the *NIX like OS groups,
though things are improving. *NIX with its cryptic, often only two
letter commands, and command switches no two of which look similar
to each other, *breeds* guru mentality.
What same criticism? That Linux isn't security-centered enough? Well,
that clearly doesn't apply to *some* Unixes, such as OpenBSD. Two-
letter commands don't affect security, and neither does guru mentality.
In short, fiddling with an OS is not a hobby for you, nor for many.
Linux, in general, is for fiddlers and those for whom such fiddling
is a hobby.
Well, it used to be a hobby of mine, but it becoming less and less
so. Apart from that, the Linux community is making far too many
claims of real-world usefulness to withdraw behind the excuse of
being "merely experimental" everytime someone points out a
shortcoming. This isn't the early 1990's anymore.
I have worked on and supported and written enough OS
that fiddling with OS is not something that interests me any more,
either. Fedora is the most extreme of the Linux in this respect.
I don't think this is correct, either. I have seen Linux OS projects
that are far more experimental than Fedora.
If installing and fiddling is not your "thing", then Fedora
is not
for you.
I know the mantra. I've been chanting it myself. On the other hand,
if all the fiddling never yields any meaningful results or progress
then it isn't much more than pissing against the wind. I have the
impression that this was one of ESR's gripes with Fredora.
My girlfriend, at my suggestion, is running
Debian, and it works well enough, and is stable enough.
My wife and one of my sons used to run Fedora, without any stability
problems, too. But it was a very time-consuming affair for me, they
couldn't do much themselves, only what I've set up or made working
for them.
Those of us who live and breathe Unix tend to lose touch with what
user-friendliness means for computer illiterates. Give me the command
line anyday, I much prefer it to any incarnation of "file managers".
However, the command line doesn't mean squat to my family. The have
to put up with the ghastliness of GUI file managers.
> Of course, Apple have an unfair advantage, they make their own
> hardware...
Well, they *market* their own hardware.
In fairness, they design and engineer it, and have it made in China.
Linux has one really big flaw in one sense...
It has no rudder at all. Linux is not a product. Some distros
attempt to be somewhat a product. Fedora makes no bones about
it: Fedora Core is NOT A PRODUCT, IT IS A PROJECT.
Projects have rudders, too. Or at least, they should (it's called
project management). And they should have long terms goals and
strategies. And they should communicate those.
Cheers
Steffen.
12:26 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Steffen Kluge wrote:
On 24/02/2007, at 3:07 AM, Mike McCarty wrote:
>> Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with
>> OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck- up
>> and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my
>> Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel
>> comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
>
>
> You can make this same criticism for any of the *NIX like OS groups,
> though things are improving. *NIX with its cryptic, often only two
> letter commands, and command switches no two of which look similar
> to each other, *breeds* guru mentality.
What same criticism? That Linux isn't security-centered enough? Well,
Sorry I wasn't clear. The criticism I meant was "stuck-up and
hostile".
that clearly doesn't apply to *some* Unixes, such as OpenBSD.
Two-
letter commands don't affect security, and neither does guru mentality.
Two-letter command attract those with "guru mentality".
> In short, fiddling with an OS is not a hobby for you, nor for
many.
> Linux, in general, is for fiddlers and those for whom such fiddling
> is a hobby.
Well, it used to be a hobby of mine, but it becoming less and less so.
Apart from that, the Linux community is making far too many claims of
real-world usefulness to withdraw behind the excuse of being "merely
experimental" everytime someone points out a shortcoming. This isn't
the early 1990's anymore.
Yes, I'm rather put off by that, myself. When someone points out
that Linux distros lack any real QA, and the user interface is still
"not there", then the side of the mouth is "Linux is still in
development, it's experimental, or you need to learn how to use
man and apropos", but then it sure seems like many want it to compete
with Widows and MacOS and complain that Dell doesn't ship their
laptops with some distro on it. BTW, "Linux" is not "a thing".
Everyone who likes it has his favorite distro.
[snip]
> If installing and fiddling is not your "thing", then
Fedora is not
> for you.
I know the mantra. I've been chanting it myself. On the other hand, if
all the fiddling never yields any meaningful results or progress then
it isn't much more than pissing against the wind. I have the impression
that this was one of ESR's gripes with Fredora.
I won't presume in that direction. But I disagree with the sentiment.
FC is "upstream" for RHEL.
> My girlfriend, at my suggestion, is running
> Debian, and it works well enough, and is stable enough.
My wife and one of my sons used to run Fedora, without any stability
problems, too. But it was a very time-consuming affair for me, they
couldn't do much themselves, only what I've set up or made working for
them.
I meant that the distro is stable. It changes infrequently, and has
a good support mail list.
Debian is easier to configure than FC, in my experience.
Those of us who live and breathe Unix tend to lose touch with what
user-friendliness means for computer illiterates. Give me the command
line anyday, I much prefer it to any incarnation of "file managers".
However, the command line doesn't mean squat to my family. The have to
put up with the ghastliness of GUI file managers.
Well, we're both on the same page here.
>> Of course, Apple have an unfair advantage, they make their
own
>> hardware...
>
>
> Well, they *market* their own hardware.
In fairness, they design and engineer it, and have it made in China.
What I meant.
> Linux has one really big flaw in one sense...
>
> It has no rudder at all. Linux is not a product. Some distros
> attempt to be somewhat a product. Fedora makes no bones about
> it: Fedora Core is NOT A PRODUCT, IT IS A PROJECT.
Projects have rudders, too. Or at least, they should (it's called
project management). And they should have long terms goals and
strategies. And they should communicate those.
FC has pretty clearly define objectives, I think.
Mike
--
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
Oppose globalization and One World Governments like the UN.
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
11:26 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Mike McCarty wrote:
> Two-
> letter commands don't affect security, and neither does guru mentality.
Two-letter command attract those with "guru mentality".
What? I thought they attract lazy people who don't like to type a lot.
Or that they still work just as well now after being invented on 110
baud mechanical teletype terminals.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
11:32 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Saturday 24 February 2007, Les Mikesell wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
>> Two-
>> letter commands don't affect security, and neither does guru
>> mentality.
>
> Two-letter command attract those with "guru mentality".
What? I thought they attract lazy people who don't like to type a lot.
Or that they still work just as well now after being invented on 110
baud mechanical teletype terminals.
Something that new, Les? ISTR the old tty 15's we had used to run at 75
baud, in baudot code. 5 bit + a shift each way.
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2007 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
11:51 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Sat, Feb 24, 2007 at 02:52:30 +1100,
Steffen Kluge <kluge(a)dotnet.org> wrote:
Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with
OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck-up
and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my
Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel
comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
Most of the security issues are with applications. The main security
advantage of openbsd is that almost everything is turned off by default.
They are doing some important work that affects Linux in trying to get
more open hardware. Plus they support openssh. Theo made my donation list
this past year even though I don't run any openbsd systems.
1:46 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 02:52 +1100, Steffen Kluge wrote:
Please don't take this post as a pro-Apple rant, I was just
trying to
express that people (other than just ESR) can become frustrated at
various aspects of a home computing environment that doesn't give the
user a star to steer by but seems to be chaotic and rudderless all
the time. I will certainly keep open-minded and closely follow the
Fedora project.
I would tend to agree with you, if I hadn't had major run-ins with Apple
Inc. back in the very early eighties. Sure, good software (albeit
expensive) and good hardware (albeit expensive, half stolen and the
closed)... it's the company's Gestapo mindset pathology that I have
major experience, and resultant concerns, with.
I started the Bay Area Apple Users Group, in the Johnston Space Center
area south of Houston, TX. We grew to 150 members, which is darn
respectable for a local user group of any kind. Apple Inc. started up
the "Apple Core" national Apple, Inc. coordinated user group, complete
with a slick magazine. I got a letter from them demanding I enroll my
group into their fold, or suffer a lawsuit demanding I remove the word
"Apple" from our user group name, and that I would be personally sued.
Enrolling the group would have entailed me collecting dues to forward to
them. WTF? We had no dues, I set it up that way and that was all there
was to it.
So, I wrote back to them, threatening to boycott their local dealer, and
to contact the local news media to publicize our action and the reasons
why. I noted that we had Astronauts and their family members in our
group (remember Lord British??) so if they thought for a moment that
they would survive that kind of press, to bring it on.
A few years later, when I checked with each of our members, they had
moved onto the IBM XT. Everyone of them. I did as well. I laughed my ass
of while watching the Apple ][ become the Apple ]I[, the Lisa, the Mac,
the Mac Plus, and at each stage the former user got blown completely
off. Every time. That is their pathology. They maintain complete
control over hardware and when the next new thing comes along, the old
platform is tossed over the side with alarming speed, and their users
with it. It's all about the "Vision of Jobs", and buttkiss to their
user/customer base. My first Apple product was one of the garage built
machines, so I have watched them for a long long time. Great system,
great OS, abusive corporate ethics. according to my perspectives, Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
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================================================
3:45 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 02:52 +1100, Steffen Kluge wrote:
On 22/02/2007, at 2:06 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Macs do a nice trick. Aside from upgrading the same machine, if you
> buy a new Mac can connect your old one via firewire, boot it as a
> firewire target (they all do that) and it will migrate all your old
> settings (users/passwords etc.) and programs over. A new Intel Mac
> will even migrate older PPC programs over and continue to run
> them. That's a tough act to follow.
I wish you hadn't said this, it makes me butt in to a thread
everybody has stopped reading anyway...
I have a lot of respect for ESR, he's been one of the most vocal and
influential campaigners of Linux, and open source in general. I think
we (the open source community) do owe him a fair share of our current
status and credibility.
It makes me sad to see a letter like this from him. It was clearly
written in a state of anger, and lacks all of his usual eloquence and
sharp logic. He obviously got fed up to a bursting point.
I'm not going to even mention any of his particular arguments (other
than saying that RPM is brilliant, just rule in those sloppy
packagers), however I must say I've been harbouring doubts about the
future of Red Hat and Fedora myself. I can't really point my finger
at anything specific, but let me start by saying that I've been a
Linux-only user for about 13 years, much of that with RH/FC. And so
has most of my household. In the past couple of years this turf has
been invaded from two sides, though.
Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with
OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck-up
and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my
Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel
comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
Secondly, the desktops. I've immensely enjoyed the Linux game, making
the impossible happen, sticking it up to them (you know who), even
playing as an equal in a corporate Windows/Exchange environment. It
had cost me a lot of time and sweat but it was worth it.
I'm getting older though, my days seem to get shorter and I need to
get stuff done. There isn't a lot of time for tinkering and fixing
stuff on the spot anymore. I needed something that just works most of
the time, without debugging. I've become a user, and as such joined
the rest of my family. My family had morphed into a Mac OS X
community some time ago (Linux was too hard and Windows was out of
the question), so I finally joined them and am now using Tiger on a
Mac as my primary desktop.
After those two invasions I'm still running Linux on my corporate
desktop at work and on a few servers at home, and don't intent to
change that. But for day-to-day desktop/media/end-user stuff I've
pretty much given up on Linux. Now, you could blame that on Fedora,
but I don't think it would have turned out any different if I had
been using another distro. In the end, user experience wins, and
Apple appears to be the only player that fully groks this.
Of course, Apple have an unfair advantage, they make their own
hardware...
Please don't take this post as a pro-Apple rant, I was just trying to
express that people (other than just ESR) can become frustrated at
various aspects of a home computing environment that doesn't give the
user a star to steer by but seems to be chaotic and rudderless all
the time. I will certainly keep open-minded and closely follow the
Fedora project.
Cheers
Steffen.
I am amused by this whole discussion , somewhat reminiscent of the
argument I got what I said FC6 was not "up to snuff". By the way I have
had the same dependency missing problems under OS X using fink (really
apt-get under the hood).
--
Aaron Konstam <akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net>
6:46 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Today Res did spake thusly:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Kwan Lowe wrote:
>
>>> He's kind of slow on the draw if he just noticed that fedora is a
>>> bleeding edge distribution and not particularly stable. New development
>>> has to be tested somewhere.
>>
>> ESR has always been a lot of hot air. He's an attention whore.
>>
>
> He is some thing of a gas bag, isn't he. :D
>
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground
on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as simple as
playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro
out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
This is changing a little in Fedora 7
Try converting winblows users to Fedora, but saying, oh but you cant
play
mp3's out of the box...you can, but youll have to go toa unofficial RH/Fedora
repo and try install it, or do like I do and erase the players RH
bastardises, and grab the source and install it, now say that to a newbie and
you've lost em! First impression are ever lasting in this game.
However, not all first installs are like that...I've converted a few ;)
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy, I've never ever yet
upgraded from one
version of RH or Fedora without conflicts, FC4 was a comple explosion, I gave
up and reinstalled previous and ignored FC4.
Odd. I've upgraded my server from RH5 all the way up to FC6 using either
apt-rpm or yum and not had any major issues. package-cleanup from yum
tools is great for getting rid of the old crap left over.
Yet I can do this with even slackware and have been able to for
years,
with slapt-get I was able to upgrade without a drama a slackware 7 box
to a slackware 11.0!!, reboot and viola! all working.
slapt-get completely killed my slackware 10 box. Twice. Never again...
I'll possibly for time being stick with Fedora for desktops,as
I've used them
since early RH, but no way in bloody hell will it ever run on any
server in my data center, I'll stick with slackware there, last RH server I
decommisioned about 2 years ago was RH9, it was unbreakable, Fedora
is by design "bleeding edge" or is that "bleeding edge of blunders",
and if
we dont fix it soon, the likes of debian and suse will overtake us by a long
mile.
I run FC6 on my server. It's never "broken". I use it to watch DivXs too
and occasionally X breaks or MPlayer, but the ability for it to deal with
my email/file serving/IRC server has remained unbroken.
/end rant :P
I guess everyone's experience is different. Me? I only enable livna and
don't use any other repos, cept for AT for a webcam driver, and I simply
enable that long enough to get a new kmod every new kernel. And it's been
pretty solid for me...
--
Scott van Looy - email:me@ethosuk.org.uk | web:www.ethosuk.org.uk
site:www.freakcity.net - the in place for outcasts since 2003
PGP Fingerprint: 7180 5543 C6C4 747B 7E74 802C 7CF9 E526 44D9 D4A7
-------------------------------------------
|/// /// /// /// WIDE LOAD /// /// /// ///|
-------------------------------------------
secretary plugged hairdryer into UPS
5:14 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Scott van Looy wrote:
slapt-get completely killed my slackware 10 box. Twice. Never again...
I did the entire data center where I worked without a hitch, you must
have had something screwy in the first place.
Your upgrade on fedora sequences seems to be the complete opposite of most
people around here, but,anythings possible :)
--
Cheers
Res
"We can be Heroes, just for one day" - Davey (Jones) Bowie
7:54 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Res wrote:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground
on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as simple as
playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro
out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
How does debian solve this issue? Anyone know?
I put this out because it's probably the most fundamentalist of all
distros (the won't pack firefox in there next version due to name
copyright).
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8:53 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Martin Marques wrote:
I put this out because it's probably the most fundamentalist of all distros
(the won't pack firefox in there next version due to name copyright).
Sorry, this was poorly writen.
The changed the names and icons of all mozilla brands in there etch (next
release) version. So in the next debian version, firefox will be iceweasel
and thunderbird will be icedove. ;-)
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9:23 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 09:59:03 +1000,
Res <res(a)ausics.net> wrote:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing
ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as
simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro
out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
If everyone has that attidude, things are likely to stay that way. I'd much
rather see people pushing Ogg and including links to download players and
plugins similar to the ones for Adobe's products, than try to get (nonfree)
licensed copies into all of the base distributions.
Try converting winblows users to Fedora, but saying, oh but you cant
play
mp3's out of the box...you can, but youll have to go toa unofficial
RH/Fedora repo and try install it, or do like I do and erase the players
RH bastardises, and grab the source and install it, now say that to a
newbie and you've lost em! First impression are ever lasting in this
game.
You are talking about the same idoits that will download any old crap off
the net and repeatedly get their machines trojaned. I don't see how downloading
media codecs from third party web sites are going to scare them off.
5:32 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
You are talking about the same idoits that will download any old crap
off
the net and repeatedly get their machines trojaned. I don't see how downloading
Like it or not, thats about 90% of the internet users
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6:40 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Res:
> Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is
losing
> ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as
> simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro
> out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
Bruno Wolff III:
If everyone has that attidude, things are likely to stay that way.
I'd much
rather see people pushing Ogg and including links to download players and
plugins similar to the ones for Adobe's products, than try to get (nonfree)
licensed copies into all of the base distributions.
I'd like that, too. But it's hamstrung by a few factors:
People with personal/portable playback hardware, that they want to keep,
that won't play ogg. So they'll get all their music in one format that
works on everything that they have.
Publishers not wanting to supply files without DRM. And, no, I don't
want ogg to support that crap.
Most of the files they want to play, probably illegal downloads, being
MP3. Heck, just jump on a peer-to-peer network and try to find any ogg
files, just using ogg as your keywords, and you'll usually only see a
few turn up.
> Try converting winblows users to Fedora, but saying, oh but you
cant play
> mp3's out of the box...you can, but youll have to go toa unofficial
> RH/Fedora repo and try install it, or do like I do and erase the players
> RH bastardises, and grab the source and install it, now say that to a
> newbie and you've lost em! First impression are ever lasting in this
> game.
You are talking about the same idoits that will download any old crap
off
the net and repeatedly get their machines trojaned. I don't see how downloading
media codecs from third party web sites are going to scare them off.
That's a fair point, but then such users seem to be stupid on a number
of fronts.
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I read messages from the public lists.
7:01 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Tim wrote:
> If everyone has that attidude, things are likely to stay that
way. I'd much
> rather see people pushing Ogg and including links to download players and
> plugins similar to the ones for Adobe's products, than try to get (nonfree)
> licensed copies into all of the base distributions.
I'd like that, too. But it's hamstrung by a few factors:
People with personal/portable playback hardware, that they want to keep,
that won't play ogg. So they'll get all their music in one format that
works on everything that they have.
Publishers not wanting to supply files without DRM. And, no, I don't
want ogg to support that crap.
If Lucent goes crazy suing all the people who though they had licensed
MP3 technology, ogg might catch on real fast.
http://news.com.com/Microsoft+hit+with+1.5+billion+patent+verdict/2100-10...
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lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
3:56 a.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
At 01:01 23/02/2007, you wrote:
Tim wrote:
>>If everyone has that attidude, things are likely to stay that way. I'd much
>>rather see people pushing Ogg and including links to download players and
>>plugins similar to the ones for Adobe's products, than try to get (nonfree)
>>licensed copies into all of the base distributions.
>I'd like that, too. But it's hamstrung by a few factors:
>People with personal/portable playback hardware, that they want to keep,
>that won't play ogg. So they'll get all their music in one format that
>works on everything that they have.
>Publishers not wanting to supply files without DRM. And, no, I don't
>want ogg to support that crap.
If Lucent goes crazy suing all the people who though they had
licensed MP3 technology, ogg might catch on real fast.
http://news.com.com/Microsoft+hit+with+1.5+billion+patent+verdict/2100-10...
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I think another problem we have is that MP3 has become one of those
"generic" or whatever the name is, abused terms. It's like a vacuum
cleaner being called a Hoover when it's actually a Dyson, or a four
wheel drive vehicle being referred to as a Jeep when clearly it's a Land Rover.
It's the same problem with audio compression. I bought my wife a
flash music player for Christmas, and I've still not managed to train
her to say "Ogg Vorbis" instead of MP3. Even though it's never had an
MP3 file loaded onto it.
BTW there is package available that makes Ogg files play on Windows
Media Player:-
http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/
which I suppose is a bit like encouraging folks to install the XP
version of Open Office to hopefully get them to make the jump over to
Linux sometime.
Dave F
1:41 p.m.
New subject: ESR: Goodbye Fedora
Hi;
Last time I took this long to say "Goodbye", I ended up with an extra
child.
On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 18:29 -0500, Kwan Lowe wrote:
>> He's kind of slow on the draw if he just noticed that
fedora is a
>> bleeding edge distribution and not particularly stable. New development
>> has to be tested somewhere.
>
> ESR has always been a lot of hot air. He's an attention whore.
>
He is some thing of a gas bag, isn't he. :D
I've had the misfortune of hearing him speak at our local LUG. Besides being the
most arrogant SOB I've met in my 37 years, he implied in his speech that he was
somehow responsible for the Linux revolution and apparently forcing all the
Fortune100 companies to switch to Linux.
Thank god he'll no longer claim to be a Fedora user. It's sort of the same thing
as
Hannibal Lechter or Jeffrey Dahmer being in your dining club.
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39 participants
participants (39)
-
Aaron Konstam -
agraham -
Alan Cox -
Andy Green -
Arthur Pemberton -
Bill Case -
Bruno Wolff III -
Charles Curley -
Christopher Mocock -
Craig White -
David -
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Don Levey -
Ed Greshko -
Gene Heskett -
Howard Howell -
Ian Astley -
Ingemar Nilsson -
James Wilkinson -
javajunkie -
jdow -
John Wendel -
Kwan Lowe -
Les Mikesell -
M. Fioretti -
Martin Marques -
Michael A. Peters -
Mike McCarty -
Oldman -
Res -
Ric Moore -
Richard England -
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra -
Scott van Looy -
Steffen Kluge -
Temlakos -
Thierry -
Tim -
Tom Rivers