[diversity] Re: Accommodation for FOSDEM

[Radka Janekova]

We've been discussing this as one of the problems of inclusion with some of
the Diversity (+cc) members, basically the problem is that we can not
assume ones orientation and how comfortable they are running around almost
naked around what kind of strangers. We can not even ask for an explanation
because that already invites a situation where someone will rather run away
than having to explain something so deeply personal. Whatever the reasons
are, if one is not okay with room sharing, they should still be able to
contribute.

Anyone got anything to add to the problem? Should we discuss this problem
in a meeting or a ticket?

Radka

------------------------------
*Radka Janeková*
.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
*[e-mail] *
IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos 
wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017, at 11:41, Radka Janekova wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> yes I do - I am not entirely comfortable with room sharing though.
>
> Hi,
>
> From the looks of it there are 4 women asking for accommodation (including
> you), so there won't be a free room (if you were 5 for example so you could
> be on your own). That's actually how it works in conferences like these,
> sorry but I can't do something about it. You are free to choose your
> roommate, but we simply can't afford every subsidized participant to book
> his own room.

[Amita Sharma]

When I acknowledge the issue here, at the same time I also know that the
money is a limited resource we have and we have to use it wisely.
One solution to this which I can think of as of now is - Just calculate the
per person budget for accommodation on sharing basis and one should be able
to find a single room within the same budget (may be not at the same place
though).
I also believe that everything has its own pros and cons. When you stay
together with other people and in company, it is always more secure/safe
and more time to socialize and you are free to choose with whom you want to
stay (considering other person is also agreed). I also believe that,
conferences are time bounded (maximum of 2-4 days), where we can adjust
things and help Fedora to use money wisely in stuff where it is required
the most.

HTH :)

Regards,
Amita

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 3:31 PM, Radka Janekova 
wrote:
> We've been discussing this as one of the problems of inclusion with some
> of the Diversity (+cc) members, basically the problem is that we can not
> assume ones orientation and how comfortable they are running around almost
> naked around what kind of strangers. We can not even ask for an explanation
> because that already invites a situation where someone will rather run away
> than having to explain something so deeply personal. Whatever the reasons
> are, if one is not okay with room sharing, they should still be able to
> contribute.
>
> Anyone got anything to add to the problem? Should we discuss this problem
> in a meeting or a ticket?
>
> Radka
>
> *Radka Janeková*
> .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> *[e-mail] *
> IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos 
> wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017, at 11:41, Radka Janekova wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > yes I do - I am not entirely comfortable with room sharing though.
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > From the looks of it there are 4 women asking for accommodation
> > (including you), so there won't be a free room (if you were 5 for example
> > so you could be on your own). That's actually how it works in conferences
> > like these, sorry but I can't do something about it. You are free to choose
> > your roommate, but we simply can't afford every subsidized participant to
> > book his own room.
>
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]

[Radka Janekova]

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos 
 wrote:
> We have been doing this for years and there were never any problems.

How do you know that? Trust me when I say that people would rather not
speak up, not contribute, and not even ask for not sharing a room if they
have a good personal problem.

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Amita Sharma  wrote:
> I also know that the money is a limited resource we have and we have to

use it wisely.

Yes, we have to use it wisely, but this problem is not about money, I know
very well what kind of budgets flow through Fedora and RedHat. Comparably
the 70$ difference on a solo room instead of a shared one is irrelevant.
It's irrelevant whether it's 500$ for the contributor which we happily
approve, or 570$ with a single room.
> One solution to this which I can think of as of now is - Just calculate

the per person budget for accommodation on sharing basis

Yes, a solution that is not communicated and the whole communication is
"you have to share a room." Main problem here - discouraging contribution
with mere words.

Radka

------------------------------
*Radka Janeková*
.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
*[e-mail] *
IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Amita Sharma  wrote:
> When I acknowledge the issue here, at the same time I also know that the
> money is a limited resource we have and we have to use it wisely.
> One solution to this which I can think of as of now is - Just calculate
> the per person budget for accommodation on sharing basis and one should be
> able to find a single room within the same budget (may be not at the same
> place though).
> I also believe that everything has its own pros and cons. When you stay
> together with other people and in company, it is always more secure/safe
> and more time to socialize and you are free to choose with whom you want to
> stay (considering other person is also agreed). I also believe that,
> conferences are time bounded (maximum of 2-4 days), where we can adjust
> things and help Fedora to use money wisely in stuff where it is required
> the most.
>
> HTH :)
>
> Regards,
> Amita
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 3:31 PM, Radka Janekova 
> wrote:
> > We've been discussing this as one of the problems of inclusion with some
> > of the Diversity (+cc) members, basically the problem is that we can not
> > assume ones orientation and how comfortable they are running around almost
> > naked around what kind of strangers. We can not even ask for an explanation
> > because that already invites a situation where someone will rather run away
> > than having to explain something so deeply personal. Whatever the reasons
> > are, if one is not okay with room sharing, they should still be able to
> > contribute.
> >
> > Anyone got anything to add to the problem? Should we discuss this problem
> > in a meeting or a ticket?
> >
> > Radka
> >
> > *Radka Janeková*
> > .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> > *[e-mail] *
> > IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos <[e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017, at 11:41, Radka Janekova wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > yes I do - I am not entirely comfortable with room sharing though.
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > From the looks of it there are 4 women asking for accommodation
> > > (including you), so there won't be a free room (if you were 5 for example
> > > so you could be on your own). That's actually how it works in conferences
> > > like these, sorry but I can't do something about it. You are free to choose
> > > your roommate, but we simply can't afford every subsidized participant to
> > > book his own room.
> >
> > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
>
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]

[Amita Sharma]

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Radka Janekova 
wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos 
>  wrote:
> > We have been doing this for years and there were never any problems.
>
> How do you know that? Trust me when I say that people would rather not
> speak up, not contribute, and not even ask for not sharing a room if they
> have a good personal problem.
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Amita Sharma 
> wrote:
> > I also know that the money is a limited resource we have and we have to
>
> use it wisely.
>
> Yes, we have to use it wisely, but this problem is not about money, I know
> very well what kind of budgets flow through Fedora and RedHat. Comparably
> the 70$ difference on a solo room instead of a shared one is irrelevant.
> It's irrelevant whether it's 500$ for the contributor which we happily
> approve, or 570$ with a single room.
> > One solution to this which I can think of as of now is - Just calculate
>
> the per person budget for accommodation on sharing basis
>
> Yes, a solution that is not communicated and the whole communication is
> "you have to share a room." Main problem here - discouraging contribution
> with mere words.

We are working on your request. Please be aware that Zach is also a long
time contributor and it is also true that such situations are very rare.

We all are here to make Fedora a welcoming and inclusive community. Hope
you understand that and please don't feel discouraged in any manner.

Regards,
Amita
> Radka
>
> *Radka Janeková*
> .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> *[e-mail] *
> IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Amita Sharma 
> wrote:
> > When I acknowledge the issue here, at the same time I also know that the
> > money is a limited resource we have and we have to use it wisely.
> > One solution to this which I can think of as of now is - Just calculate
> > the per person budget for accommodation on sharing basis and one should be
> > able to find a single room within the same budget (may be not at the same
> > place though).
> > I also believe that everything has its own pros and cons. When you stay
> > together with other people and in company, it is always more secure/safe
> > and more time to socialize and you are free to choose with whom you want to
> > stay (considering other person is also agreed). I also believe that,
> > conferences are time bounded (maximum of 2-4 days), where we can adjust
> > things and help Fedora to use money wisely in stuff where it is required
> > the most.
> >
> > HTH :)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Amita
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 3:31 PM, Radka Janekova 
> > wrote:
> > > We've been discussing this as one of the problems of inclusion with some
> > > of the Diversity (+cc) members, basically the problem is that we can not
> > > assume ones orientation and how comfortable they are running around almost
> > > naked around what kind of strangers. We can not even ask for an explanation
> > > because that already invites a situation where someone will rather run away
> > > than having to explain something so deeply personal. Whatever the reasons
> > > are, if one is not okay with room sharing, they should still be able to
> > > contribute.
> > >
> > > Anyone got anything to add to the problem? Should we discuss this
> > > problem in a meeting or a ticket?
> > >
> > > Radka
> > >
> > > *Radka Janeková*
> > > .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> > > *[e-mail] *
> > > IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos <
> > > [e-mail]> wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017, at 11:41, Radka Janekova wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > yes I do - I am not entirely comfortable with room sharing though.
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > From the looks of it there are 4 women asking for accommodation
> > > > (including you), so there won't be a free room (if you were 5 for example
> > > > so you could be on your own). That's actually how it works in conferences
> > > > like these, sorry but I can't do something about it. You are free to choose
> > > > your roommate, but we simply can't afford every subsidized participant to
> > > > book his own room.
> > >
> > > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> >
> > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
>
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]

[Radka Janekova]

> Please be aware that Zach is also a long time contributor and it is also

true that such situations are very rare.

Again Amita, and how do you know that it didn't happen? You would never
know, the people simply run away without even trying if you open up with
"expect room sharing."
> We are working on your request.

I am not requesting anything for myself here - I am bringing up a problem
that we discussed with Justin a while back, the last time room sharing
topic came up. I thought that we might as well loop in the rest of the team
and discuss quite serious problem in my opinion.

Radka

------------------------------
*Radka Janeková*
.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
*[e-mail] *
IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 7:11 PM, Amita Sharma  wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Radka Janekova 
> wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos <[e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > > We have been doing this for years and there were never any problems.
> >
> > How do you know that? Trust me when I say that people would rather not
> > speak up, not contribute, and not even ask for not sharing a room if they
> > have a good personal problem.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Amita Sharma 
> > wrote:
> > > I also know that the money is a limited resource we have and we have to
> >
> > use it wisely.
> >
> > Yes, we have to use it wisely, but this problem is not about money, I
> > know very well what kind of budgets flow through Fedora and RedHat.
> > Comparably the 70$ difference on a solo room instead of a shared one is
> > irrelevant. It's irrelevant whether it's 500$ for the contributor which we
> > happily approve, or 570$ with a single room.
> > > One solution to this which I can think of as of now is - Just calculate
> >
> > the per person budget for accommodation on sharing basis
> >
> > Yes, a solution that is not communicated and the whole communication is
> > "you have to share a room." Main problem here - discouraging contribution
> > with mere words.
>
> We are working on your request. Please be aware that Zach is also a long
> time contributor and it is also true that such situations are very rare.
>
> We all are here to make Fedora a welcoming and inclusive community. Hope
> you understand that and please don't feel discouraged in any manner.
>
> Regards,
> Amita
> > Radka
> >
> > *Radka Janeková*
> > .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> > *[e-mail] *
> > IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Amita Sharma 
> > wrote:
> > > When I acknowledge the issue here, at the same time I also know that the
> > > money is a limited resource we have and we have to use it wisely.
> > > One solution to this which I can think of as of now is - Just calculate
> > > the per person budget for accommodation on sharing basis and one should be
> > > able to find a single room within the same budget (may be not at the same
> > > place though).
> > > I also believe that everything has its own pros and cons. When you stay
> > > together with other people and in company, it is always more secure/safe
> > > and more time to socialize and you are free to choose with whom you want to
> > > stay (considering other person is also agreed). I also believe that,
> > > conferences are time bounded (maximum of 2-4 days), where we can adjust
> > > things and help Fedora to use money wisely in stuff where it is required
> > > the most.
> > >
> > > HTH :)
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Amita
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 3:31 PM, Radka Janekova 
> > > wrote:
> > > > We've been discussing this as one of the problems of inclusion with
> > > > some of the Diversity (+cc) members, basically the problem is that we can
> > > > not assume ones orientation and how comfortable they are running around
> > > > almost naked around what kind of strangers. We can not even ask for an
> > > > explanation because that already invites a situation where someone will
> > > > rather run away than having to explain something so deeply personal.
> > > > Whatever the reasons are, if one is not okay with room sharing, they should
> > > > still be able to contribute.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone got anything to add to the problem? Should we discuss this
> > > > problem in a meeting or a ticket?
> > > >
> > > > Radka
> > > >
> > > > *Radka Janeková*
> > > > .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> > > > *[e-mail] *
> > > > IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos <
> > > > [e-mail]> wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017, at 11:41, Radka Janekova wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > yes I do - I am not entirely comfortable with room sharing though.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > From the looks of it there are 4 women asking for accommodation
> > > > > (including you), so there won't be a free room (if you were 5 for example
> > > > > so you could be on your own). That's actually how it works in conferences
> > > > > like these, sorry but I can't do something about it. You are free to choose
> > > > > your roommate, but we simply can't afford every subsidized participant to
> > > > > book his own room.
> > > >
> > > > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> > >
> > > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> >
> > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
>
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]

[Matthew Miller]

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:37:47AM +0100, Radka Janekova wrote:> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos
> Yes, we have to use it wisely, but this problem is not about money, I know
> very well what kind of budgets flow through Fedora and RedHat. Comparably
> the 70$ difference on a solo room instead of a shared one is irrelevant.
> It's irrelevant whether it's 500$ for the contributor which we happily
> approve, or 570$ with a single room.

I'm not sure on the math there, but Fedora really does have limited
resources. The difference is definitely not irrelevant. Our sponsor may
have a lot of revenue, but the money *Fedora* has to spend on travel is
a tiny percent of a percent of a percent of that.

Saving money is important. It's awesome when people feel comfortable
sharing a room to keep expenses low.

But, encouraging diversity and making our contributors feel comfortable
and welcome is *also* important. I think it's a good use of our
resources, even though they are limited.

[Radka Janekova]

Hi Matthew,

please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we have money to spare.
I've not asked for a single penny out of any Fedora budget and yet I've
been presenting dotnet-on-Fedora at 4 or more conferences. I always fund
myself, from swag to travel and accommodation. The point with those
randomly generated numbers I tried to make, is that being more inclusive
and having that one valuable contributor there once a year, who is not okay
with sharing a room, is worth the 0.18%[1] of the EMEA Ambassodrs budget.
Better than having them run away and stop contributing all together.

I would really like to talk about possible solutions though, instead of
enforcing room sharing as a rule of thumb. For example Ambassadors could
fund only the amount for the shared room, and the remainder could go from
the Diversity budget. This type of situation won't happen more than once or
twice a year, so I think that there is a solution hiding somewhere.

[1] This is accurate number for the duration of FOSDEM for the difference
between single room or shared room, taking 2016 total EMEA Amb. budget:
* Two people in a shared room = $234 / 2 = $117 ea.
* One person in the same room = $200
* Difference = $200 - $117 = $83
* EMEA Ambassadors FY17 planned budget: $35,750
* $83 / 35,750 = 0.00232 = 0.23% (this number is behind the previously used
word "irrelevant")

Radka

------------------------------
*Radka Janeková*
.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
*[e-mail] *
IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Matthew Miller 
wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:37:47AM +0100, Radka Janekova wrote:> On Thu,
> Dec 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos
> > Yes, we have to use it wisely, but this problem is not about money, I
>
> know
> > very well what kind of budgets flow through Fedora and RedHat. Comparably
> > the 70$ difference on a solo room instead of a shared one is irrelevant.
> > It's irrelevant whether it's 500$ for the contributor which we happily
> > approve, or 570$ with a single room.
>
> I'm not sure on the math there, but Fedora really does have limited
> resources. The difference is definitely not irrelevant. Our sponsor may
> have a lot of revenue, but the money *Fedora* has to spend on travel is
> a tiny percent of a percent of a percent of that.
>
> Saving money is important. It's awesome when people feel comfortable
> sharing a room to keep expenses low.
>
> But, encouraging diversity and making our contributors feel comfortable
> and welcome is *also* important. I think it's a good use of our
> resources, even though they are limited.
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
>
> Fedora Project Leader
> _______________________________________________
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]

[Amita Sharma]

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Radka Janekova 
wrote:
> Hi Matthew,
>
> please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we have money to spare.
> I've not asked for a single penny out of any Fedora budget and yet I've
> been presenting dotnet-on-Fedora at 4 or more conferences. I always fund
> myself, from swag to travel and accommodation. The point with those
> randomly generated numbers I tried to make, is that being more inclusive
> and having that one valuable contributor there once a year, who is not okay
> with sharing a room, is worth the 0.18%[1] of the EMEA Ambassodrs budget.
> Better than having them run away and stop contributing all together.
>
> I would really like to talk about possible solutions though, instead of
> enforcing room sharing as a rule of thumb. For example Ambassadors could
> fund only the amount for the shared room, and the remainder could go from
> the Diversity budget. This type of situation won't happen more than once or
> twice a year, so I think that there is a solution hiding somewhere.

So, How you are sure about the numbers (once or twice a year), now? :)
No one denied here the concern and thanks for bringing it up.

As I said already, we are working on it and when I say that it means not
just your accommodation booking, but also a long term solution to this
particular issue. Fedora is a big community and when we bring in some
solution or changes, we want it to be good if not perfect. Hence it takes
some time to get there. So, please be patient.

I will soon open a ticket in diversity repo for this and you are most
welcome to suggest some solutions, you have in mind and so as others. It
will help developing a policy around it so that we put the Fedora resources
to good use and refrain from letting it misuse in any way.

HTH,
Amita
> [1] This is accurate number for the duration of FOSDEM for the difference
> between single room or shared room, taking 2016 total EMEA Amb. budget:
> Two people in a shared room = $234 / 2 = $117 ea.
> One person in the same room = $200
> Difference = $200 - $117 = $83
> EMEA Ambassadors FY17 planned budget: $35,750
> $83 / 35,750 = 0.00232 = 0.23% (this number is behind the previously
>
> used word "irrelevant")
>
> Radka
>
> *Radka Janeková*
> .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> *[e-mail] *
> IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Matthew Miller 
> wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:37:47AM +0100, Radka Janekova wrote:> On Thu,
> > Dec 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos
> > > Yes, we have to use it wisely, but this problem is not about money, I
> >
> > know
> > > very well what kind of budgets flow through Fedora and RedHat.
> >
> > Comparably
> > > the 70$ difference on a solo room instead of a shared one is irrelevant.
> > > It's irrelevant whether it's 500$ for the contributor which we happily
> > > approve, or 570$ with a single room.
> >
> > I'm not sure on the math there, but Fedora really does have limited
> > resources. The difference is definitely not irrelevant. Our sponsor may
> > have a lot of revenue, but the money *Fedora* has to spend on travel is
> > a tiny percent of a percent of a percent of that.
> >
> > Saving money is important. It's awesome when people feel comfortable
> > sharing a room to keep expenses low.
> >
> > But, encouraging diversity and making our contributors feel comfortable
> > and welcome is *also* important. I think it's a good use of our
> > resources, even though they are limited.
> >
> > --
> > Matthew Miller
> >
> > Fedora Project Leader
> > _______________________________________________
> > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
>
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]

[Brian Exelbierd]

I encourage us to draw this conversation back to the request that has
been made.  It seems this person chose to contact only Radka directly. 
Radka, have you told this person their request will be filled?  Have
they moved forward in the booking and planning process.

regards,

bex

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017, at 07:25 AM, Amita Sharma wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Radka Janekova 
> wrote:
> > Hi Matthew,
> >
> > please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we have money to spare.
> > I've not asked for a single penny out of any Fedora budget and yet I've
> > been presenting dotnet-on-Fedora at 4 or more conferences. I always fund
> > myself, from swag to travel and accommodation. The point with those
> > randomly generated numbers I tried to make, is that being more inclusive
> > and having that one valuable contributor there once a year, who is not okay
> > with sharing a room, is worth the 0.18%[1] of the EMEA Ambassodrs budget.
> > Better than having them run away and stop contributing all together.
> >
> > I would really like to talk about possible solutions though, instead of
> > enforcing room sharing as a rule of thumb. For example Ambassadors could
> > fund only the amount for the shared room, and the remainder could go from
> > the Diversity budget. This type of situation won't happen more than once or
> > twice a year, so I think that there is a solution hiding somewhere.
>
> So, How you are sure about the numbers (once or twice a year), now? :)
> No one denied here the concern and thanks for bringing it up.
>
> As I said already, we are working on it and when I say that it means not
> just your accommodation booking, but also a long term solution to this
> particular issue. Fedora is a big community and when we bring in some
> solution or changes, we want it to be good if not perfect. Hence it takes
> some time to get there. So, please be patient.
>
> I will soon open a ticket in diversity repo for this and you are most
> welcome to suggest some solutions, you have in mind and so as others. It
> will help developing a policy around it so that we put the Fedora
> resources
> to good use and refrain from letting it misuse in any way.
>
> HTH,
> Amita
> > [1] This is accurate number for the duration of FOSDEM for the difference
> > between single room or shared room, taking 2016 total EMEA Amb. budget:
> > Two people in a shared room = $234 / 2 = $117 ea.
> > One person in the same room = $200
> > Difference = $200 - $117 = $83
> > EMEA Ambassadors FY17 planned budget: $35,750
> > $83 / 35,750 = 0.00232 = 0.23% (this number is behind the previously
> >
> > used word "irrelevant")
> >
> > Radka
> >
> > *Radka Janeková*
> > .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> > *[e-mail] *
> > IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Matthew Miller 
> > wrote:
> > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:37:47AM +0100, Radka Janekova wrote:> On Thu,
> > > Dec 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos
> > > > Yes, we have to use it wisely, but this problem is not about money, I
> > >
> > > know
> > > > very well what kind of budgets flow through Fedora and RedHat.
> > >
> > > Comparably
> > > > the 70$ difference on a solo room instead of a shared one is irrelevant.
> > > > It's irrelevant whether it's 500$ for the contributor which we happily
> > > > approve, or 570$ with a single room.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure on the math there, but Fedora really does have limited
> > > resources. The difference is definitely not irrelevant. Our sponsor may
> > > have a lot of revenue, but the money *Fedora* has to spend on travel is
> > > a tiny percent of a percent of a percent of that.
> > >
> > > Saving money is important. It's awesome when people feel comfortable
> > > sharing a room to keep expenses low.
> > >
> > > But, encouraging diversity and making our contributors feel comfortable
> > > and welcome is *also* important. I think it's a good use of our
> > > resources, even though they are limited.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Matthew Miller
> > >
> > > Fedora Project Leader
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> >
> > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
>
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]

[diversity] Re: Alternate accommodation options at Fedora events (was: Accommodation for FOSDEM)

[Justin W. Flory]

On 12/15/2017 08:44 AM, Brian Exelbierd wrote:
> I encourage us to draw this conversation back to the request that has
> been made.  It seems this person chose to contact only Radka directly. 
> Radka, have you told this person their request will be filled?  Have
> they moved forward in the booking and planning process.

Even though the original context was FOSDEM, I understood this request
as an opportunity to discuss and consider alternate accommodation
options to be more inclusive towards some groups at all Fedora events. I
updated the subject line to reflect that. (If I'm incorrect, someone is
welcome to correct me.)

To be clear, is there anything the Diversity team can do to support an
update to this policy? Should we file a new Council ticket or is this
something the Council plans to discuss soon? I hadn't noticed any
discussion about it in the Council until now.

My intent is to come up with a concrete way to address this and make
sure it doesn't slip through the cracks. Some way to track progress on
this is helpful.

[diversity] Re: Alternate accommodation options at Fedora events (was: Accommodation for FOSDEM)

[Radka Janekova]

All correct and +1, as Amita said, a ticket in our (Diversity) pagure would
be probably the best next step?

Radka

------------------------------
*Radka Janeková*
.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
*[e-mail] *
IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Justin W. Flory  wrote:
> On 12/15/2017 08:44 AM, Brian Exelbierd wrote:
> > I encourage us to draw this conversation back to the request that has
> > been made.  It seems this person chose to contact only Radka directly.
> > Radka, have you told this person their request will be filled?  Have
> > they moved forward in the booking and planning process.
>
> Even though the original context was FOSDEM, I understood this request
> as an opportunity to discuss and consider alternate accommodation
> options to be more inclusive towards some groups at all Fedora events. I
> updated the subject line to reflect that. (If I'm incorrect, someone is
> welcome to correct me.)
>
> To be clear, is there anything the Diversity team can do to support an
> update to this policy? Should we file a new Council ticket or is this
> something the Council plans to discuss soon? I hadn't noticed any
> discussion about it in the Council until now.
>
> My intent is to come up with a concrete way to address this and make
> sure it doesn't slip through the cracks. Some way to track progress on
> this is helpful.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Justin W. Flory
> [e-mail]
>
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]

[diversity] Re: Alternate accommodation options at Fedora events (was: Accommodation for FOSDEM)

[Brian Exelbierd]

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017, at 12:56 AM, Justin W. Flory wrote:
> On 12/15/2017 08:44 AM, Brian Exelbierd wrote:
> > I encourage us to draw this conversation back to the request that has
> > been made.  It seems this person chose to contact only Radka directly. 
> > Radka, have you told this person their request will be filled?  Have
> > they moved forward in the booking and planning process.
>
> Even though the original context was FOSDEM, I understood this request
> as an opportunity to discuss and consider alternate accommodation
> options to be more inclusive towards some groups at all Fedora events. I
> updated the subject line to reflect that. (If I'm incorrect, someone is
> welcome to correct me.)
>
> To be clear, is there anything the Diversity team can do to support an
> update to this policy? Should we file a new Council ticket or is this
> something the Council plans to discuss soon? I hadn't noticed any
> discussion about it in the Council until now.

The council will be discussing this and taking it forward.  I suggest we
give the Council time to address this.  The specific situation here has
been addressed directly.

Thank you.

regards,

bex

[diversity] Re: Alternate accommodation options at Fedora events (was: Accommodation for FOSDEM)

[Brian Exelbierd]

Hi,

I am resending this information to ensure I communicated it well.

If anyone needs a private room for FOSDEM they should coordinate that
directly with Zacharias and not on this mailing list.  He will place
them in a room in the Fedora arranged hotel block.  This will limit the
exposure of their information to the minimum number of people.

We are working on a general policy for this situation in the council.

regards,

bex

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017, at 01:18 PM, Brian Exelbierd wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017, at 12:56 AM, Justin W. Flory wrote:
> > On 12/15/2017 08:44 AM, Brian Exelbierd wrote:
> > > I encourage us to draw this conversation back to the request that has
> > > been made.  It seems this person chose to contact only Radka directly. 
> > > Radka, have you told this person their request will be filled?  Have
> > > they moved forward in the booking and planning process.
> >
> > Even though the original context was FOSDEM, I understood this request
> > as an opportunity to discuss and consider alternate accommodation
> > options to be more inclusive towards some groups at all Fedora events. I
> > updated the subject line to reflect that. (If I'm incorrect, someone is
> > welcome to correct me.)
> >
> > To be clear, is there anything the Diversity team can do to support an
> > update to this policy? Should we file a new Council ticket or is this
> > something the Council plans to discuss soon? I hadn't noticed any
> > discussion about it in the Council until now.
>
> The council will be discussing this and taking it forward.  I suggest we
> give the Council time to address this.  The specific situation here has
> been addressed directly.
>
> Thank you.
>
> regards,
>
> bex
> _______________________________________________
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]

[diversity] Re: Alternate accommodation options at Fedora events (was: Accommodation for FOSDEM)

[Amita Sharma]

yes, already included in team's next years goals. Please check ticket -
https://pagure.io/fedora-diversity/issue/48

Thanks,
Amita

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 5:26 AM, Justin W. Flory  wrote:
> On 12/15/2017 08:44 AM, Brian Exelbierd wrote:
> > I encourage us to draw this conversation back to the request that has
> > been made.  It seems this person chose to contact only Radka directly.
> > Radka, have you told this person their request will be filled?  Have
> > they moved forward in the booking and planning process.
>
> Even though the original context was FOSDEM, I understood this request
> as an opportunity to discuss and consider alternate accommodation
> options to be more inclusive towards some groups at all Fedora events. I
> updated the subject line to reflect that. (If I'm incorrect, someone is
> welcome to correct me.)
>
> To be clear, is there anything the Diversity team can do to support an
> update to this policy? Should we file a new Council ticket or is this
> something the Council plans to discuss soon? I hadn't noticed any
> discussion about it in the Council until now.
>
> My intent is to come up with a concrete way to address this and make
> sure it doesn't slip through the cracks. Some way to track progress on
> this is helpful.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Justin W. Flory
> [e-mail]
>
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]

[Brian Exelbierd]

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017, at 07:25 AM, Amita Sharma wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Radka Janekova 
> wrote:
> > Hi Matthew,
> >
> > please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we have money to spare.
> > I've not asked for a single penny out of any Fedora budget and yet I've
> > been presenting dotnet-on-Fedora at 4 or more conferences. I always fund
> > myself, from swag to travel and accommodation. The point with those
> > randomly generated numbers I tried to make, is that being more inclusive
> > and having that one valuable contributor there once a year, who is not okay
> > with sharing a room, is worth the 0.18%[1] of the EMEA Ambassodrs budget.
> > Better than having them run away and stop contributing all together.
> >
> > I would really like to talk about possible solutions though, instead of
> > enforcing room sharing as a rule of thumb. For example Ambassadors could
> > fund only the amount for the shared room, and the remainder could go from
> > the Diversity budget. This type of situation won't happen more than once or
> > twice a year, so I think that there is a solution hiding somewhere.
>
> So, How you are sure about the numbers (once or twice a year), now? :)
> No one denied here the concern and thanks for bringing it up.
>
> As I said already, we are working on it and when I say that it means not
> just your accommodation booking, but also a long term solution to this
> particular issue. Fedora is a big community and when we bring in some
> solution or changes, we want it to be good if not perfect. Hence it takes
> some time to get there. So, please be patient.
>
> I will soon open a ticket in diversity repo for this and you are most
> welcome to suggest some solutions, you have in mind and so as others. It
> will help developing a policy around it so that we put the Fedora
> resources
> to good use and refrain from letting it misuse in any way.

We  will be working on a travel policy revision at the Council level and
look forward to the Diversity Representative providing input there. 
This issue spans many more situations than just this one and this is the
exact reason we have a Diversity Representative on the council.

regards,

bex
> HTH,
> Amita
> > [1] This is accurate number for the duration of FOSDEM for the difference
> > between single room or shared room, taking 2016 total EMEA Amb. budget:
> > Two people in a shared room = $234 / 2 = $117 ea.
> > One person in the same room = $200
> > Difference = $200 - $117 = $83
> > EMEA Ambassadors FY17 planned budget: $35,750
> > $83 / 35,750 = 0.00232 = 0.23% (this number is behind the previously
> >
> > used word "irrelevant")
> >
> > Radka
> >
> > *Radka Janeková*
> > .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> > *[e-mail] *
> > IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 7:59 PM, Matthew Miller 
> > wrote:
> > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:37:47AM +0100, Radka Janekova wrote:> On Thu,
> > > Dec 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Zacharias Mitzelos
> > > > Yes, we have to use it wisely, but this problem is not about money, I
> > >
> > > know
> > > > very well what kind of budgets flow through Fedora and RedHat.
> > >
> > > Comparably
> > > > the 70$ difference on a solo room instead of a shared one is irrelevant.
> > > > It's irrelevant whether it's 500$ for the contributor which we happily
> > > > approve, or 570$ with a single room.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure on the math there, but Fedora really does have limited
> > > resources. The difference is definitely not irrelevant. Our sponsor may
> > > have a lot of revenue, but the money *Fedora* has to spend on travel is
> > > a tiny percent of a percent of a percent of that.
> > >
> > > Saving money is important. It's awesome when people feel comfortable
> > > sharing a room to keep expenses low.
> > >
> > > But, encouraging diversity and making our contributors feel comfortable
> > > and welcome is *also* important. I think it's a good use of our
> > > resources, even though they are limited.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Matthew Miller
> > >
> > > Fedora Project Leader
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> >
> > Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
>
> Fedora Diversity Team mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]