5:01 p.m.
Hi folks,
as I said some time ago on list I'll be doing the Design Suite for
Fedora 13. Having had some pretty cool discussion with Diana, Mel and Mo
in the hackroo... hospitality suite at FUDCon, I've created and uploaded
a first build.
It's already based on yesterday's Rawhide, even though it still calls
itself Generic 12 - which means it might very well break. It worked for
me in a VM, so you might just want to give it a try. It's currently
around 900 MB and already using Peter Robinson's modified base package
set, but we'll see if we can fit it into CD-size for the final release.
Actually, I was trying to upload it somewhere quickly and ended up using
Wuala. You might need to run a java applet to download it immediately,
depending on whether my upload has already propagated to all their
systems. Peter has already offered to help with hosting, so this is just
a very very temporary solution.
Anyway, enough talk, here you go: http://www.wuala.com/sdziallas/fedora
If you've any suggestions concerning which apps to include, to remove or
what else to do, just shout! There's still a bit on my list and I'll
move ahead and document more things over winter vacation, too.
Happy holidays & testing!
--Sebastian
2:36 a.m.
On 12/22/2009 01:01 AM, Sebastian Dziallas wrote:
as I said some time ago on list I'll be doing the Design Suite for
Fedora 13. Having had some pretty cool discussion with Diana, Mel and Mo
in the hackroo... hospitality suite at FUDCon, I've created and uploaded
a first build.
Nice... are available anywhere some notes about the design concepts
agreed there? (like select 'best of breed' apps or include as much as
possible, restrict to graphics or also go for audio/video, include or
not data...)
It's already based on yesterday's Rawhide, even though it
still calls
itself Generic 12 - which means it might very well break. It worked for
me in a VM, so you might just want to give it a try. It's currently
around 900 MB and already using Peter Robinson's modified base package
set, but we'll see if we can fit it into CD-size for the final release.
I don't think CD size is a realistic target, my suggestion is to aim for
2GB USB sticks (maybe 1.5GB worth of application, leaving some space for
live persistence)
Actually, I was trying to upload it somewhere quickly and ended up
using
Wuala. You might need to run a java applet to download it immediately,
depending on whether my upload has already propagated to all their
systems. Peter has already offered to help with hosting, so this is just
a very very temporary solution.
Anyway, enough talk, here you go: http://www.wuala.com/sdziallas/fedora
If you've any suggestions concerning which apps to include, to remove or
what else to do, just shout! There's still a bit on my list and I'll
move ahead and document more things over winter vacation, too.
I don't think I will get the time to play with it this year, can you
provide the list of packages?
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
3:22 a.m.
On 12/22/2009 03:36 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 01:01 AM, Sebastian Dziallas wrote:
>
> as I said some time ago on list I'll be doing the Design Suite for
> Fedora 13. Having had some pretty cool discussion with Diana, Mel and Mo
> in the hackroo... hospitality suite at FUDCon,
Hackroom! Hackroom!
(We used the word "hospitality suite" at the front desk because we
weren't sure how the hotel would feel about the word "hack," and this
became a running joke at FUDCon Toronto.)
> I've created and uploaded a first build.
I'd promised to help out a bit with marketing for this, so the first
step was to create a page that we can build into this project's home.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite
It's not ready for widespread "USE THIS!" PR yet, and won't be for some
time - but we still need a place where folks who want to contribute can
go and find out what's going on. So that's what this is right now.
I redirected the old link so edit history would be preserved, and the
link from the old [[Design]] page would still work:
https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Artwork/ArtTeamProjects/Fedor...
Nice... are available anywhere some notes about the design concepts
agreed there? (like select 'best of breed' apps or include as much as
possible, restrict to graphics or also go for audio/video, include or
not data...)
Not that I know of, but I started a section for it with some notes:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Design_concepts
> It's already based on yesterday's Rawhide, even though it
still calls
> itself Generic 12 - which means it might very well break. It worked for
> me in a VM, so you might just want to give it a try. It's currently
> around 900 MB and already using Peter Robinson's modified base package
> set, but we'll see if we can fit it into CD-size for the final release.
I don't think CD size is a realistic target, my suggestion is to aim for
2GB USB sticks (maybe 1.5GB worth of application, leaving some space for
live persistence)
Yet more documentation stub-places for after these decisions have been
made: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Technical_requirements
I don't think I will get the time to play with it this year, can
you
provide the list of packages?
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Packages
...and of course, as for everything else we work on in Fedora, we need a
section for... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#How_to_contribute
I'm not entirely sure what the different steps to making a Remix/Spin
are (this may be a good thing to write up a tutorial for, and the more
we document and think out loud as we do this, the easier writing that
tutorial will be) but if we know those steps, it seems to me that the
first thing to do would be to fill them in on
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Upcoming_milestones so we
know how close we are to completion at any given point in time.
--Mel
4:03 a.m.
On 12/22/2009 11:22 AM, Mel Chua wrote:
I'd promised to help out a bit with marketing for this, so the first
step was to create a page that we can build into this project's home.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite
You did a nice and useful work in there.
I'm not entirely sure what the different steps to making a
Remix/Spin
are (this may be a good thing to write up a tutorial for, and the more
we document and think out loud as we do this, the easier writing that
tutorial will be) but if we know those steps, it seems to me that the
first thing to do would be to fill them in on
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Upcoming_milestones so we
know how close we are to completion at any given point in time.
I am not an expert in this either but, if I understand correctly, the
most of the job is to create a kickstart file with a good selection of
packages. We do a few experimental builds to see if is not horribly
broken and then try to "sell" it to the build system so it is taken care
of automatically: http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
4:08 a.m.
On 12/22/2009 11:22 AM, Mel Chua wrote:
I'd promised to help out a bit with marketing for this, so the first
step was to create a page that we can build into this project's home.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite
It's not ready for widespread "USE THIS!" PR yet, and won't be for
some
time - but we still need a place where folks who want to contribute can
go and find out what's going on. So that's what this is right now.
I think before significant marketing we should clarify the vision and
the target, go beyond the generic "professional designers". I bet even
us, inside the Design Team, have various expectations from a "perfect" spin.
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
4:29 a.m.
Merging responses for Nicu's last two replies...
I am not an expert in this either but, if I understand correctly,
the
most of the job is to create a kickstart file with a good selection of
packages. We do a few experimental builds to see if is not horribly
broken and then try to "sell" it to the build system so it is taken care
of automatically: http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/
Looking again at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Upcoming_milestones, we
should probably set a date by which everything that wants to be
considered for inclusion in the kickstart file to be packaged, and then
another to freeze the kickstart's package list (after testing those
packages).
It looks like the Design Studio will bring up some interesting questions
while it's being made - things like "what's the line between content and
software?" (do brushes count, etc) and how should the various things
(whatever they are) we want be delivered via the Design Suite?
(packages? webpages? packages of bookmarks to webpages? packages of
sampe content?) So it's a good idea to leave plenty of time for those
conversations and questions to be resolved.
I think before significant marketing we should clarify the vision
and
the target, go beyond the generic "professional designers". I bet even
us, inside the Design Team, have various expectations from a
"perfect"
spin.
Yep. My current working definition for open source marketing is that
it's much more than "just" PR - it's "the community-driven process
responsible for enabling users to identify, anticipate, and satisfy
their own requirements sustainably[0]" so the "identify" part is what
I'm thinking about right now, and what I'm here in Design to learn. ;)
/me drops back to watch the process of designers designing something for
themselves. Yay, meta!
--Mel
[0] this is a modification of the Chartered Institute of Marketing's
definition of marketing,
http://www.cim.co.uk/resources/understandingmarket/definitionmkting.aspx, which
is "the management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and
satisfying customer requirements profitably."
5:15 a.m.
On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 12:08 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 11:22 AM, Mel Chua wrote:
>
> I'd promised to help out a bit with marketing for this, so the first
> step was to create a page that we can build into this project's home.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite
>
> It's not ready for widespread "USE THIS!" PR yet, and won't be for
some
> time - but we still need a place where folks who want to contribute can
> go and find out what's going on. So that's what this is right now.
I think before significant marketing we should clarify the vision and
the target, go beyond the generic "professional designers". I bet even
us, inside the Design Team, have various expectations from a "perfect" spin.
To throw something in:
* target 1: showcase of design team work (perhaps customise the
looks of the spin, add more wallpapers, include echo icons?)
* target 2: typesetting -- fonts, inkscape, TeX, color profiles
are IMHO a must
* target 3: general art/design work -- gimp, inkscape, color
profiles, brushes, perhaps our echo-artist helper scripts, ...
* target 4: video editing -- something for screencasting,
something to grab raw video from video camera, pitivi or kino or
something like that for cutting, perhaps an app for sound
editing/recording, include dirac/schrodinger codec (I think
theora, vorbis, flac, etc. are already in), perhaps some app for
subtitling (I'm maintaining subtitleeditor myself, but there are
more)
* target 5: desktop publishing -- OpenOffice.org + templates,
scribus
And of course customised bookmarks.
Martin
6:35 a.m.
On 12/22/2009 12:29 PM, Mel Chua wrote:
Looking again at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Upcoming_milestones, we
should probably set a date by which everything that wants to be
considered for inclusion in the kickstart file to be packaged, and then
another to freeze the kickstart's package list (after testing those
packages).
I strongly believe in the "release early, release often" process, so the
first version of the spin does not have to be perfect, it can be just
the Desktop Spin with a handful of applications added. Then we can
add/remove/refine stuff.
And I don't think we will package stuff solely for this spin, the
packages will go in the large Fedora repository and we will make a
selection from there.
Anyway, we can't have a list of packages before we don't know exactly
which type of packages we want to have.
It looks like the Design Studio will bring up some interesting
questions
while it's being made - things like "what's the line between content and
software?" (do brushes count, etc) and how should the various things
(whatever they are) we want be delivered via the Design Suite?
(packages? webpages? packages of bookmarks to webpages? packages of
sampe content?) So it's a good idea to leave plenty of time for those
conversations and questions to be resolved.
Not only sample content, but also stock: we have already packaged
clipart images from openclipart.org (the package is very old but this is
a different and long story), in a similar way we can add stock
photography or stock sounds (only the size is a limit - it may be
replaced with bookmarks for websites).
Yep. My current working definition for open source marketing is that
it's much more than "just" PR - it's "the community-driven
process
responsible for enabling users to identify, anticipate, and satisfy
their own requirements sustainably[0]" so the "identify" part is what
I'm thinking about right now, and what I'm here in Design to learn. ;)
/me drops back to watch the process of designers designing something for
themselves. Yay, meta!
Honestly, if I would be designing a spin for myself, the result would be
total chaos :D If you look at my desk, everything look like a mess.
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
6:44 a.m.
On 12/22/2009 01:15 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
To throw something in:
* target 1: showcase of design team work (perhaps customise the
looks of the spin, add more wallpapers, include echo icons?)
I don't like this target, I think we should go beyond "showing of" into
something we would use ourselves.
* target 2: typesetting -- fonts, inkscape, TeX, color
profiles
are IMHO a must
* target 3: general art/design work -- gimp, inkscape, color
profiles, brushes, perhaps our echo-artist helper scripts, ...
* target 4: video editing -- something for screencasting,
something to grab raw video from video camera, pitivi or kino or
something like that for cutting, perhaps an app for sound
editing/recording, include dirac/schrodinger codec (I think
theora, vorbis, flac, etc. are already in), perhaps some app for
subtitling (I'm maintaining subtitleeditor myself, but there are
more)
* target 5: desktop publishing -- OpenOffice.org + templates,
scribus
My option would be for a combination of 2-5 and address a large target
of creative uses. And I think those targets are linked deeply, here are
a couple of examples:
- a couple of days ago I was editing a video. I discovered I *need*
image editing applications (I used Inkscape, but GIMP would have been
equally useful) since I had to add a logo and a nice opening screen;
- for serious desktop publishing you don't use only the final
application, you will usually have to process photos (GIMP) and create
original art (Inkscape).
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
7:12 a.m.
On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 14:44 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 01:15 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
> To throw something in:
> * target 1: showcase of design team work (perhaps customise the
> looks of the spin, add more wallpapers, include echo icons?)
I don't like this target, I think we should go beyond "showing of" into
something we would use ourselves.
> * target 2: typesetting -- fonts, inkscape, TeX, color profiles
> are IMHO a must
> * target 3: general art/design work -- gimp, inkscape, color
> profiles, brushes, perhaps our echo-artist helper scripts, ...
> * target 4: video editing -- something for screencasting,
> something to grab raw video from video camera, pitivi or kino or
> something like that for cutting, perhaps an app for sound
> editing/recording, include dirac/schrodinger codec (I think
> theora, vorbis, flac, etc. are already in), perhaps some app for
> subtitling (I'm maintaining subtitleeditor myself, but there are
> more)
> * target 5: desktop publishing -- OpenOffice.org + templates,
> scribus
My option would be for a combination of 2-5 and address a large target
of creative uses. And I think those targets are linked deeply, here are
a couple of examples:
- a couple of days ago I was editing a video. I discovered I *need*
image editing applications (I used Inkscape, but GIMP would have been
equally useful) since I had to add a logo and a nice opening screen;
- for serious desktop publishing you don't use only the final
application, you will usually have to process photos (GIMP) and create
original art (Inkscape).
Good points. Actually the target 1 was meant rather as complementary to
the spin -- create a spin for designers but also include some work we
have done ourselves and are proud of it and tune the look'n'feel of the
spin ;-) The main purpose should be combination of 2-5 targets, I was
merely listing some (partly overlapping) subsets of the whole spin I
think that would be worth optimizing it for (we won't be probably
marketing for all creative users at once but for Joe who does web
design, for Jane who likes to do home videos, for Pete who is
professional typesetter, ...). Although, looking back through the list,
probably desktop publishing and typesetting should be merged as one
subset...
Martin
8:15 a.m.
On 12/22/2009 03:12 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
> On 12/22/2009 01:15 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
>> To throw something in:
>> * target 1: showcase of design team work (perhaps customise the
>> looks of the spin, add more wallpapers, include echo icons?)
>
Good points. Actually the target 1 was meant rather as complementary to
the spin -- create a spin for designers but also include some work we
have done ourselves and are proud of it and tune the look'n'feel of the
spin ;-)
Actually, I had the opportunity to think a bit about this part: I think
is a good idea to NOT customise the look of the spin. Why? Because we
show this way we care about the "normal" spins being the best we can do,
don't relegate them to a second place and focus the attention on our own
"toy".
Of course, in addition to that we can have a ton of additional themes we
like to play with.
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
8:54 a.m.
On Tue, 2009-12-22 at 16:15 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 03:12 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
>> On 12/22/2009 01:15 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:
>>> To throw something in:
>>> * target 1: showcase of design team work (perhaps customise the
>>> looks of the spin, add more wallpapers, include echo icons?)
>>
> Good points. Actually the target 1 was meant rather as complementary to
> the spin -- create a spin for designers but also include some work we
> have done ourselves and are proud of it and tune the look'n'feel of the
> spin ;-)
Actually, I had the opportunity to think a bit about this part: I think
is a good idea to NOT customise the look of the spin. Why? Because we
show this way we care about the "normal" spins being the best we can do,
don't relegate them to a second place and focus the attention on our own
"toy".
Well, that's a good reason, however the "normal" spins'
(especially the
desktop spin) owners do not ask for our opinion in terms of design other
than wallpaper. Effectively if we want to polish fedora look we need to
do it in our spin first and then bug the other spin owners to implement
it as well... Basically the design spin could (among other things) serve
as a place to look for when you'd like to see a preview of fedora future
look, or maybe a better phrase would be "a preview of what the design
team would like fedora to look like".
Of course, in addition to that we can have a ton of additional themes
we
like to play with.
Yup, that's a good suggestion.
Martin
6:39 p.m.
Nicu Buculei wrote:
On 12/22/2009 01:01 AM, Sebastian Dziallas wrote:
Sorry for being so calm over the holidays - I was planning to get all of
this done much earlier but got somehow stuck in the middle.
> as I said some time ago on list I'll be doing the Design
Suite for
> Fedora 13. Having had some pretty cool discussion with Diana, Mel and Mo
> in the hackroo... hospitality suite at FUDCon, I've created and uploaded
> a first build.
Nice... are available anywhere some notes about the design concepts
agreed there? (like select 'best of breed' apps or include as much as
possible, restrict to graphics or also go for audio/video, include or
not data...)
I think (if I recall correctly) we were taking the "what would help
designers - so also people on the design team or those who want to get
involved" approach. Admittedly, that's a pretty broad one and I think we
mentioned that having sample content and introductions either somewhere
on the spin or on a bookmarked page would be good.
> It's already based on yesterday's Rawhide, even though it
still calls
> itself Generic 12 - which means it might very well break. It worked for
> me in a VM, so you might just want to give it a try. It's currently
> around 900 MB and already using Peter Robinson's modified base package
> set, but we'll see if we can fit it into CD-size for the final release.
I don't think CD size is a realistic target, my suggestion is to aim for
2GB USB sticks (maybe 1.5GB worth of application, leaving some space for
live persistence)
Well, it depends on what we end up with. For example OpenOffice Impress
is a *major* space consumer. Basically, it means that we're using about
150 MB for a single application. Excluding that one would bring us down
to 750 MB, which isn't too far from CD-size. However, since we're just
starting to talk about it, I guess we'll just see what comes close.
In the end, it might well be a 2 GB target - I don't know, yet.
> Actually, I was trying to upload it somewhere quickly and ended
up using
> Wuala. You might need to run a java applet to download it immediately,
> depending on whether my upload has already propagated to all their
> systems. Peter has already offered to help with hosting, so this is just
> a very very temporary solution.
>
> Anyway, enough talk, here you go: http://www.wuala.com/sdziallas/fedora
>
> If you've any suggestions concerning which apps to include, to remove or
> what else to do, just shout! There's still a bit on my list and I'll
> move ahead and document more things over winter vacation, too.
I don't think I will get the time to play with it this year, can you
provide the list of packages?
Finally, I've thrown something in the wiki -
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Packages has all the
details. I didn't include a real rationale for now, so feel free to rant! ;)
Aside from that, the page looks really cool (thanks Mel!) - if anybody
has package suggestions or further ideas, just add them there.
Cheers & Happy New Year!
--Sebastian
6:43 p.m.
Martin Sourada wrote:
And of course customised bookmarks.
Anybody up for collecting a number of links and putting them in the wiki
(the resources category has apparently already some nice links) and an
appropriate file?
https://fedorahosted.org/education/browser/bookmarks/default-bookmarks.html
shows how such a file may look like.
I'd be happy to help with packaging & reviewing.
--Sebastian
7:30 p.m.
Maybe you could make the full build and a netinstall? I'm fine with a file
that big, but I know many people don't have DVD-ROM's, so that could help as
well.
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Sebastian Dziallas <sebastian(a)when.com>wrote:
Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 12/22/2009 01:01 AM, Sebastian Dziallas wrote:
Sorry for being so calm over the holidays - I was planning to get all of
this done much earlier but got somehow stuck in the middle.
>> as I said some time ago on list I'll be doing the Design Suite for
>> Fedora 13. Having had some pretty cool discussion with Diana, Mel and Mo
>> in the hackroo... hospitality suite at FUDCon, I've created and uploaded
>> a first build.
>
> Nice... are available anywhere some notes about the design concepts
> agreed there? (like select 'best of breed' apps or include as much as
> possible, restrict to graphics or also go for audio/video, include or
> not data...)
I think (if I recall correctly) we were taking the "what would help
designers - so also people on the design team or those who want to get
involved" approach. Admittedly, that's a pretty broad one and I think we
mentioned that having sample content and introductions either somewhere
on the spin or on a bookmarked page would be good.
>> It's already based on yesterday's Rawhide, even though it still calls
>> itself Generic 12 - which means it might very well break. It worked for
>> me in a VM, so you might just want to give it a try. It's currently
>> around 900 MB and already using Peter Robinson's modified base package
>> set, but we'll see if we can fit it into CD-size for the final release.
>
> I don't think CD size is a realistic target, my suggestion is to aim for
> 2GB USB sticks (maybe 1.5GB worth of application, leaving some space for
> live persistence)
Well, it depends on what we end up with. For example OpenOffice Impress
is a *major* space consumer. Basically, it means that we're using about
150 MB for a single application. Excluding that one would bring us down
to 750 MB, which isn't too far from CD-size. However, since we're just
starting to talk about it, I guess we'll just see what comes close.
In the end, it might well be a 2 GB target - I don't know, yet.
>> Actually, I was trying to upload it somewhere quickly and ended up using
>> Wuala. You might need to run a java applet to download it immediately,
>> depending on whether my upload has already propagated to all their
>> systems. Peter has already offered to help with hosting, so this is just
>> a very very temporary solution.
>>
>> Anyway, enough talk, here you go: http://www.wuala.com/sdziallas/fedora
>>
>> If you've any suggestions concerning which apps to include, to remove or
>> what else to do, just shout! There's still a bit on my list and I'll
>> move ahead and document more things over winter vacation, too.
>
> I don't think I will get the time to play with it this year, can you
> provide the list of packages?
Finally, I've thrown something in the wiki -
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design_Suite#Packages has all the
details. I didn't include a real rationale for now, so feel free to rant!
;)
Aside from that, the page looks really cool (thanks Mel!) - if anybody
has package suggestions or further ideas, just add them there.
Cheers & Happy New Year!
--Sebastian
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
2:19 a.m.
On 12/31/2009 03:30 AM, Brad Fanella wrote:
Maybe you could make the full build and a netinstall? I'm fine
with a
file that big, but I know many people don't have DVD-ROM's, so that
could help as well.
There is no need for a dedicated netinstall, all packages will be
available in the repository, you can use the normal netinstall and add
them from there.
If you don't have a DVD, then probably is easier to put the image on an
USB stick.
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
5230
days inactive
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participants (5)
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Mel Chua -
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Sebastian Dziallas