Distrowatch: Trying on Fedora 21

[Luya Tshimbalanga]

Full review on http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141222#fedora

-- 
Luya Tshimbalanga
Graphic & Web Designer
E: luya(a)fedoraproject.org
W: http://www.coolest-storm.net

[Scott Dowdle]

Greetings,

----- Original Message -----
>  Full review on
>  http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141222#fedora 
Almost every Fedora review for the past umteen years has ended with this type of summary
(I paraphrase):

"Fedora is great but they don't include all of the proprietary stuff you
want."

Even the Linux Action Show, with all of their praise for Fedora... complained that even
though using the third-party rpmfusion repo is easier than ever... more proprietary stuff
is built for Ubuntu(-based) than Fedora... so they just can't install all of the
proprietary software like they want.  Argh.  It is so frustrating.

Sometimes I just feel that we can't win. :(  Oh, and no I don't want to abandon
free software ethics to fix those issues... not that Red Hat legal would let us even if we
wanted to.

TYL,
-- 
Scott Dowdle
704 Church Street
Belgrade, MT 59714
[phone] [home]
[phone] [work]

[Madhurjya Roy]

I agree, this is quite frustrating. And it's not just reviews, even
some new users say so. I installed Fedora on one of my friend's laptop
trying to convince him that it is much better than his illegal copy of
Windows 7.

Guess what? He called me two days later saying that he couldn't find
any good software on the GNOME software center. He was also unable to
watch his movies or listen to his MP3 music. I told him over the phone
to follow the instructions on rpmfusion's website and install the
repository. But he couldn't, he'd never even seen a command line
before and so, he messed up. He later brought it to me and I installed
rpmfusion (for VLC Media Player and the other non-free software he
would need) and also loaded WINE (something a Windows user for years
would probably need). He hasn't complained since and now he says that
he likes the new look. You might say that my friend is dumb but aren't
all NORMAL *Windows/OS X* users like this?

I started my journey on Linux with Ubuntu and since then I have
switched to Fedora. I still have Ubuntu on my home PC, though. I was a
NORMAL Windows user at first and I have struggled too! Well, I agree
that the struggle was worth the new things that I got to learn but we
must realise that there are people (most of the people) just need to
get  their job done.

This is where I think Linux distros should put a bit more effort.
People still relate Linux to developers, sysadmins and servers.  I do
embrace Open Source projects and Fedora's freeness, but what I do
believe is that a simple button on the software center to enable repos
like rpmfusion (just for those who want) shouldn't hurt. A simple step
like that could make the OS more appealing  to a potentially huge
market and maybe someday Linux would overtake OS X or even Windows in
terms of popularity.

Please be aware that I am just trying to put the common people's
viewpoint. This is just an opinion and not any sort of destructive
criticism!
Last, I would like to express my sincere apologies, in case I have
offended someone.

Regards,
Madhurjya Roy


On 28/12/2014, Scott Dowdle <dowdle(a)montanalinux.org&gt; wrote:
>  Greetings,
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> > Full review on
> > http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141222#fedora
>
>  Almost every Fedora review for the past umteen years has ended with this
>  type of summary (I paraphrase):
>
>  "Fedora is great but they don't include all of the proprietary stuff you
>  want."
>
>  Even the Linux Action Show, with all of their praise for Fedora...
>  complained that even though using the third-party rpmfusion repo is easier
>  than ever... more proprietary stuff is built for Ubuntu(-based) than
>  Fedora... so they just can't install all of the proprietary software like
>  they want.  Argh.  It is so frustrating.
>
>  Sometimes I just feel that we can't win. :(  Oh, and no I don't want to
>  abandon free software ethics to fix those issues... not that Red Hat legal
>  would let us even if we wanted to.
>
>  TYL,
>  --
>  Scott Dowdle
>  704 Church Street
>  Belgrade, MT 59714
>  [phone] [home]
>  [phone] [work]
>  --
>  marketing mailing list
>  marketing(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  List info or to change your subscription:
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing

[Trupti Kini]

I agree and +1 for this


*Regards,*
Trupti Kini
Research Assistant, FOSSEE
Aerospace lab, IIT Bombay
http://fossevangelist.blogspot.in/

On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Madhurjya Roy <roymadhurjya(a)gmail.com&gt;
wrote:

>  I agree, this is quite frustrating. And it's not just reviews,
> even
>  some new users say so. I installed Fedora on one of my friend's laptop
>  trying to convince him that it is much better than his illegal copy of
>  Windows 7.
>
>  Guess what? He called me two days later saying that he couldn't find
>  any good software on the GNOME software center. He was also unable to
>  watch his movies or listen to his MP3 music. I told him over the phone
>  to follow the instructions on rpmfusion's website and install the
>  repository. But he couldn't, he'd never even seen a command line
>  before and so, he messed up. He later brought it to me and I installed
>  rpmfusion (for VLC Media Player and the other non-free software he
>  would need) and also loaded WINE (something a Windows user for years
>  would probably need). He hasn't complained since and now he says that
>  he likes the new look. You might say that my friend is dumb but aren't
>  all NORMAL *Windows/OS X* users like this?
>
>  I started my journey on Linux with Ubuntu and since then I have
>  switched to Fedora. I still have Ubuntu on my home PC, though. I was a
>  NORMAL Windows user at first and I have struggled too! Well, I agree
>  that the struggle was worth the new things that I got to learn but we
>  must realise that there are people (most of the people) just need to
>  get  their job done.
>
>  This is where I think Linux distros should put a bit more effort.
>  People still relate Linux to developers, sysadmins and servers.  I do
>  embrace Open Source projects and Fedora's freeness, but what I do
>  believe is that a simple button on the software center to enable repos
>  like rpmfusion (just for those who want) shouldn't hurt. A simple step
>  like that could make the OS more appealing  to a potentially huge
>  market and maybe someday Linux would overtake OS X or even Windows in
>  terms of popularity.
>
>  Please be aware that I am just trying to put the common people's
>  viewpoint. This is just an opinion and not any sort of destructive
>  criticism!
>  Last, I would like to express my sincere apologies, in case I have
>  offended someone.
>
>  Regards,
>  Madhurjya Roy
>
>
>  On 28/12/2014, Scott Dowdle <dowdle(a)montanalinux.org&gt; wrote:
>  > Greetings,
>  >
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  >> Full review on
>  >> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141222#fedora
>  >
>  > Almost every Fedora review for the past umteen years has ended with this
>  > type of summary (I paraphrase):
>  >
>  > "Fedora is great but they don't include all of the proprietary stuff you
>  > want."
>  >
>  > Even the Linux Action Show, with all of their praise for Fedora...
>  > complained that even though using the third-party rpmfusion repo is
>  easier
>  > than ever... more proprietary stuff is built for Ubuntu(-based) than
>  > Fedora... so they just can't install all of the proprietary software like
>  > they want.  Argh.  It is so frustrating.
>  >
>  > Sometimes I just feel that we can't win. :(  Oh, and no I don't want to
>  > abandon free software ethics to fix those issues... not that Red Hat
>  legal
>  > would let us even if we wanted to.
>  >
>  > TYL,
>  > --
>  > Scott Dowdle
>  > 704 Church Street
>  > Belgrade, MT 59714
>  > [phone] [home]
>  > [phone] [work]
>  > --
>  > marketing mailing list
>  > marketing(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > List info or to change your subscription:
>  > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
>  --
>  marketing mailing list
>  marketing(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  List info or to change your subscription:
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing

[praveen patil]

+1. I too have experienced this.
On 29-Dec-2014 10:40 AM, "Trupti Kini" <kinitrupti(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  I agree and +1 for this
>
>
>  *Regards,*
>  Trupti Kini
>  Research Assistant, FOSSEE
>  Aerospace lab, IIT Bombay
>  http://fossevangelist.blogspot.in/
>
>  On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Madhurjya Roy <roymadhurjya(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>
> > I agree, this is quite frustrating. And it's not just reviews, even
> > some new users say so. I installed Fedora on one of my friend's laptop
> > trying to convince him that it is much better than his illegal copy of
> > Windows 7.
> >
> > Guess what? He called me two days later saying that he couldn't find
> > any good software on the GNOME software center. He was also unable to
> > watch his movies or listen to his MP3 music. I told him over the phone
> > to follow the instructions on rpmfusion's website and install the
> > repository. But he couldn't, he'd never even seen a command line
> > before and so, he messed up. He later brought it to me and I installed
> > rpmfusion (for VLC Media Player and the other non-free software he
> > would need) and also loaded WINE (something a Windows user for years
> > would probably need). He hasn't complained since and now he says that
> > he likes the new look. You might say that my friend is dumb but aren't
> > all NORMAL *Windows/OS X* users like this?
> >
> > I started my journey on Linux with Ubuntu and since then I have
> > switched to Fedora. I still have Ubuntu on my home PC, though. I was a
> > NORMAL Windows user at first and I have struggled too! Well, I agree
> > that the struggle was worth the new things that I got to learn but we
> > must realise that there are people (most of the people) just need to
> > get  their job done.
> >
> > This is where I think Linux distros should put a bit more effort.
> > People still relate Linux to developers, sysadmins and servers.  I do
> > embrace Open Source projects and Fedora's freeness, but what I do
> > believe is that a simple button on the software center to enable repos
> > like rpmfusion (just for those who want) shouldn't hurt. A simple step
> > like that could make the OS more appealing  to a potentially huge
> > market and maybe someday Linux would overtake OS X or even Windows in
> > terms of popularity.
> >
> > Please be aware that I am just trying to put the common people's
> > viewpoint. This is just an opinion and not any sort of destructive
> > criticism!
> > Last, I would like to express my sincere apologies, in case I have
> > offended someone.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Madhurjya Roy
> >
> >
> > On 28/12/2014, Scott Dowdle <dowdle(a)montanalinux.org&gt; wrote:
> > > Greetings,
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> Full review on
> > >> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141222#fedora
> > >
> > > Almost every Fedora review for the past umteen years has ended with this
> > > type of summary (I paraphrase):
> > >
> > > "Fedora is great but they don't include all of the proprietary stuff
> you
> > > want."
> > >
> > > Even the Linux Action Show, with all of their praise for Fedora...
> > > complained that even though using the third-party rpmfusion repo is
> > easier
> > > than ever... more proprietary stuff is built for Ubuntu(-based) than
> > > Fedora... so they just can't install all of the proprietary software
> > like
> > > they want.  Argh.  It is so frustrating.
> > >
> > > Sometimes I just feel that we can't win. :(  Oh, and no I don't want to
> > > abandon free software ethics to fix those issues... not that Red Hat
> > legal
> > > would let us even if we wanted to.
> > >
> > > TYL,
> > > --
> > > Scott Dowdle
> > > 704 Church Street
> > > Belgrade, MT 59714
> > > [phone] [home]
> > > [phone] [work]
> > > --
> > > marketing mailing list
> > > marketing(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > List info or to change your subscription:
> > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
> > --
> > marketing mailing list
> > marketing(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > List info or to change your subscription:
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
>
>
>
>  --
>  marketing mailing list
>  marketing(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  List info or to change your subscription:
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
>

On 29 December 2014 at 10:14, Madhurjya Roy <roymadhurjya(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  This is where I think Linux distros should put a bit more effort.
>  People still relate Linux to developers, sysadmins and servers.  I do
>  embrace Open Source projects and Fedora's freeness, but what I do
>  believe is that a simple button on the software center to enable repos
>  like rpmfusion (just for those who want) shouldn't hurt. A simple step
>  like that could make the OS more appealing  to a potentially huge
>  market and maybe someday Linux would overtake OS X or even Windows in
>  terms of popularity.
>  
I am sure this is not first time someone brought up. Since now we have
different product targeting different user groups, i think it can give some
help.
Lets try to push this again for Fedora 22 workstation product. At the most
we need click and install kind of stuff for laymen user.

Regards,
Pravin Satpute

[Ankur Sinha]

On Mon, 2014-12-29 at 10:14 +0530, Madhurjya Roy wrote:
>  Please be aware that I am just trying to put the common people's
>  viewpoint. This is just an opinion and not any sort of destructive
>  criticism!
>  Last, I would like to express my sincere apologies, in case I have
>  offended someone. 
A couple of things:

1. The issue with mp3 and other non free software support isn't going to
go away. Freedom is one of our foundations. The best you can do is
explain to new users *why* proprietary software isn't available in
Fedora and spread our open source philosophy while you do so. (The
ethical discussion regarding patents and whether or not someone wants to
pay for what someone else created is not in the scope of this mailing
list. It requires an understanding of individual rights etc.)

2. Installing media codecs is easier than ever. We've put up a note
here:
https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/question/9111/sticky-what-plugins-do-i-n...

It takes one Google search. They don't need to know how to use the
command line, they just need to copy-paste the command there. 

3. The marketing list is probably not the best place to discuss this :)
As I said before, Freedom is one of our foundations and I, for one, am
part of the community because of it. Modification of our foundations and
policies will require a discussion at a much higher level, maybe the
council will need to discuss it.

Instead of thinking of this as a limitation of Fedora, you should take
it as an opportunity to educate people of our philosophy - once people
understand, they usually don't mind the two extra steps required to
install codecs and whatnot. Open source is much more than using software
that you don't have to pay for.
-- 
Thanks,
Regards,
Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha

[Madhurjya Roy]

I'm sorry, I almost forgot that this is the marketing list!

Well, I do understand that Fedora is governed by its policies and is
never going to ship any proprietary software and I am perfectly fine
with that.

I also agree that with the vast amount of tutorials on the internet,
it's simple copy and paste that we need to do! In fact, that's the
way, I, myself started with Linux.

Since, deciding to join the project I've constantly tried to convince
people to switch. The thing is that people are already so habituated
to habituated to gui based  tools and installers (read hitting "i
agree", "next", "next", "install")  that they are
unable to adjust to
the change. It's not that copying/pasting into the terminal is a
difficult job, its just something that they do not like to. Thanks to
'wine' I could atleast show them a way to run their existing software.

If including a "Enable RPMFusion" button or something like that is
unviable, then I think we should work harder towards making people
realise the advantages of a Linux distro, we should make tools which
would allow people to easily switch to Fedora and that would suggest
open source alternatives to popular proprietary softwares. In case,
open source substitutes are unavailable, we can use the magazine to
provide tutorials to install the excluded non free software. After
all, some people have to rely on proprietary stuff for their work.

It's really disappointing when after giving out a lecture on the
awesomeness on FOSS, people respond with way lesser enthusiasm than
you expect them to! I guess it is not sufficient to convince that way,
people need more. I wish I could build some tools myself but my coding
capabilities are quite limited at present (General C++ and some basic
Python coding is all I know). Hopefully, that's going to change when I
get to join college next year and take up a course on Computer
Science. I have made it a resolution to devote to software development
and learn as much as I can next year in order to be able to produce
something concrete.

I know that the marketing team is already doing an awesome job to
promote Fedora. This is more of an appeal/suggestion to all to put
focus on popularising Linux (specifically Fedora, of course) among
basic users while maintaining and strengthening the amazing relation
with devs, that Linux has always had. :)

Thanks,
Madhurjya Roy
-
I am still at a learning stage. Please, forgive me for my
inappropriate statements, if any.

On 29/12/2014, Ankur Sinha <sanjay.ankur(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Mon, 2014-12-29 at 10:14 +0530, Madhurjya Roy wrote:
> > Please be aware that I am just trying to put the common people's
> > viewpoint. This is just an opinion and not any sort of destructive
> > criticism!
> > Last, I would like to express my sincere apologies, in case I have
> > offended someone.
>
>  A couple of things:
>
>  1. The issue with mp3 and other non free software support isn't going to
>  go away. Freedom is one of our foundations. The best you can do is
>  explain to new users *why* proprietary software isn't available in
>  Fedora and spread our open source philosophy while you do so. (The
>  ethical discussion regarding patents and whether or not someone wants to
>  pay for what someone else created is not in the scope of this mailing
>  list. It requires an understanding of individual rights etc.)
>
>  2. Installing media codecs is easier than ever. We've put up a note
>  here:
>
> https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/question/9111/sticky-what-plugins-do-i-n...
>
>  It takes one Google search. They don't need to know how to use the
>  command line, they just need to copy-paste the command there.
>
>  3. The marketing list is probably not the best place to discuss this :)
>  As I said before, Freedom is one of our foundations and I, for one, am
>  part of the community because of it. Modification of our foundations and
>  policies will require a discussion at a much higher level, maybe the
>  council will need to discuss it.
>
>  Instead of thinking of this as a limitation of Fedora, you should take
>  it as an opportunity to educate people of our philosophy - once people
>  understand, they usually don't mind the two extra steps required to
>  install codecs and whatnot. Open source is much more than using software
>  that you don't have to pay for.
>  --
>  Thanks,
>  Regards,
>  Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"
>
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
>
>

[Luya Tshimbalanga]

On 29/12/14 03:39 AM, Ankur Sinha wrote:
>  2. Installing media codecs is easier than ever. We've put up a note
>  here:
>
> https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/question/9111/sticky-what-plugins-do-i-n...
>
>  It takes one Google search. They don't need to know how to use the
>  command line, they just need to copy-paste the command there.
>  
Suggesting some new users coming from different operating system like 
Apple OS X and Microsoft Windows can be counterproductive. However, 
showing the website that only require a click to install would be a 
better approach considering that Gnome Software can do the task on 
Fedora 21 Workstation. openSUSE does a very good job on that department 
and Fedora Project should work more on that approach.

-- 
Luya Tshimbalanga
Graphic & Web Designer
E: luya(a)fedoraproject.org
W: http://www.coolest-storm.net

[Jiri Eischmann]

Ankur Sinha píše v Po 29. 12. 2014 v 12:39 +0100:
>  On Mon, 2014-12-29 at 10:14 +0530, Madhurjya Roy wrote:
>  > Please be aware that I am just trying to put the common people's
>  > viewpoint. This is just an opinion and not any sort of destructive
>  > criticism!
>  > Last, I would like to express my sincere apologies, in case I have
>  > offended someone.
>  
>  A couple of things:
>  
>  1. The issue with mp3 and other non free software support isn't going to
>  go away. 
Actually, in case of mp3 it is. Most patents related to this format are expiring this year
and AFAIK we might be able to support MP3 playback by default soon.
But otherwise yes, generally it's a problem that is not going away.

>  2. Installing media codecs is easier than ever. We've put up a
> note
>  here:
>
> https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/question/9111/sticky-what-plugins-do-i-n...
>  
>  It takes one Google search. They don't need to know how to use the
>  command line, they just need to copy-paste the command there.  
Multimedia support in Windows is also not perfect and yet it's the most
popular desktop system. People go to the Internet and download VLC or
install Flash Player. They don't mind doing it in Windows, but they do
in Fedora, and it's difficult about the same in both systems.

>  3. The marketing list is probably not the best place to discuss this
> :)
>  As I said before, Freedom is one of our foundations and I, for one, am
>  part of the community because of it. Modification of our foundations and
>  policies will require a discussion at a much higher level, maybe the
>  council will need to discuss it.
>  
>  Instead of thinking of this as a limitation of Fedora, you should take
>  it as an opportunity to educate people of our philosophy - once people
>  understand, they usually don't mind the two extra steps required to
>  install codecs and whatnot. Open source is much more than using software
>  that you don't have to pay for. 
I think part of the marketing role is also to provide feedback from
users or people who we're trying to "sell" Fedora to, but yeah, in this
case we all know it, just can't do much about it :/

Legally, we can't do much about it. Red Hat is a public company located
in the USA, not a private company located on the Isle of Man. And I'm
sure that Ubuntu will run into serious problems if they ever succeed and
are worth suing. 
I remember there were some attempts to license some most popular codecs
for Fedora, but the license terms were never compatible with open source
licenses.

Jiri

[Emmanuel Seyman]

* Madhurjya Roy [29/12/2014 10:14] :
>  Guess what? He called me two days later saying that he couldn't find
>  any good software on the GNOME software center. He was also unable to
>  watch his movies or listen to his MP3 music. I told him over the phone
>  to follow the instructions on rpmfusion's website and install the
>  repository. But he couldn't, he'd never even seen a command line
>  before and so, he messed up. 
Do you know what he did and the results were? I've installed RPMFusion
on several computers and clicking on the appropriate link has always
worked.

Emmanuel