2:38 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On 5/2/06, Karlie Robinson <karlie_robinson(a)webpath.net> wrote:
Both Thomas and Patrick have suggested I make my case for Sponsored Media
to the Ambassadors. I'm also including the Marketing group, so please
excuse any multiple emails.
The background is that I'm at a loss as to why I can't get anyone to
sponsor media to fill the Free Media requests. I had even gone so far as to
pay for adverts on the Yahoo and Google ad networks.
My guess, and it's only a guess, is that if folks are going to give a litte
extra, it will be to Ubuntu (who also gives away media) or another project
that doesn't have someone as big as RH behind it. We know Fedora needs it's
own fuel, but the rest of the world still sees it as being funded by, and
directed by, and for the greatest benefit to Red Hat. Which is true. And Red
Hat also doesn't need the money. Secondly, there are organizations that flat
out give media away. I don't think it's a matter of folks not getting off
their wallet, since 6-8 years ago their were more shrinkwrapped boxes of RH
on admin's shelves than open media cases in the lab. They were literally
buying the boxed set soley as a means of giving somethig back.
For example, I like PBS, when I donate $100 is it for the hat and mug? Or
because I want to help. Giving me the option of the "give $100 and you get a
hat" is just a catalyst to my giving.
It's possible that if you allowed folks to do this for any distribution,
that they'd pick up more broadly on it.
It's also possible that if RH put RH muscle behind it (e.g. in Red Hat
Magazine) more eyes would see it (or if RH matched a certain level of
donation, etc.). Or getting someone in the media or blogosphere to write
about it. You might try a free Web PR release, along with submitting product
announcements to niche sites like NewsForge and LinuxQuestions.org.
It's not a bad idea, it just needs to settle into the story we tell as a
core way of giving back, IMHO.
--jeremy
3:24 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
I agree, but no one is going to give any money as long as Fedora is
perceived to be backed by Red Hat. I have to admit, Fedora *is* Red Hat's
baby, just as Ubuntu is Shuttleworth's baby, and OpenSuse is Novell's baby.
I don't think that a lot of people would donate to any of these projects,
except for a few exceptions. If OpenSuse started asking for money, people
would laugh, a similar outcome would result with Fedora as well. I'm not
sure what kind of resources it would take, but getting Red Hat or some other
organization to donate a chunk of cash to Fedora so that we could give away
free CDs ( similar to Ubuntu ) is the only way I really see any of these
media plans working. Ubuntu set the "media distribution" bar high, and we
aren't anywhere near it right now. I don't think it is reasonable, nor wise,
to ask someone to sit on a waiting list, especially when they can just go to
a different distribution's site and be guaranteed a cd in a relatively short
period of time. We simply are not being competitive enough in this aspect of
marketing Fedora. This is not to put down the efforts that Fedora has made
thus far, but until someone finds a way to allow free CDs (or a dvd) to be
distributed for free upon request, our efforts will be compared to Ubuntu's
and claimed to be second rate at best.
-Steve
On 5/2/06, Jeremy Hogan <jeremy.hogan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/2/06, Karlie Robinson <karlie_robinson(a)webpath.net> wrote:
>
> Both Thomas and Patrick have suggested I make my case for Sponsored
> Media to the Ambassadors. I'm also including the Marketing group, so please
> excuse any multiple emails.
>
> The background is that I'm at a loss as to why I can't get anyone to
> sponsor media to fill the Free Media requests. I had even gone so far as to
> pay for adverts on the Yahoo and Google ad networks.
>
My guess, and it's only a guess, is that if folks are going to give a
litte extra, it will be to Ubuntu (who also gives away media) or another
project that doesn't have someone as big as RH behind it. We know Fedora
needs it's own fuel, but the rest of the world still sees it as being funded
by, and directed by, and for the greatest benefit to Red Hat. Which is true.
And Red Hat also doesn't need the money. Secondly, there are organizations
that flat out give media away. I don't think it's a matter of folks not
getting off their wallet, since 6-8 years ago their were more shrinkwrapped
boxes of RH on admin's shelves than open media cases in the lab. They were
literally buying the boxed set soley as a means of giving somethig back.
For example, I like PBS, when I donate $100 is it for the hat and mug? Or
because I want to help. Giving me the option of the "give $100 and you get a
hat" is just a catalyst to my giving.
It's possible that if you allowed folks to do this for any distribution,
that they'd pick up more broadly on it.
It's also possible that if RH put RH muscle behind it (e.g. in Red Hat
Magazine) more eyes would see it (or if RH matched a certain level of
donation, etc.). Or getting someone in the media or blogosphere to write
about it. You might try a free Web PR release, along with submitting product
announcements to niche sites like NewsForge and LinuxQuestions.org.
It's not a bad idea, it just needs to settle into the story we tell as a
core way of giving back, IMHO.
--jeremy
--
Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
3:31 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
Stephen Krenzel wrote:
I agree, but no one is going to give any money as long as Fedora
is
perceived to be backed by Red Hat. I have to admit, Fedora *is* Red
Hat's baby, just as Ubuntu is Shuttleworth's baby, and OpenSuse is
Novell's baby. I don't think that a lot of people would donate to any of
these projects, except for a few exceptions. If OpenSuse started asking
for money, people would laugh, a similar outcome would result with
Fedora as well. I'm not sure what kind of resources it would take, but
getting Red Hat or some other organization to donate a chunk of cash to
Fedora so that we could give away free CDs ( similar to Ubuntu ) is the
only way I really see any of these media plans working. Ubuntu set the
"media distribution" bar high, and we aren't anywhere near it right now.
I don't think it is reasonable, nor wise, to ask someone to sit on a
waiting list, especially when they can just go to a different
distribution's site and be guaranteed a cd in a relatively short period
of time. We simply are not being competitive enough in this aspect of
marketing Fedora. This is not to put down the efforts that Fedora has
made thus far, but until someone finds a way to allow free CDs (or a
dvd) to be distributed for free upon request, our efforts will be
compared to Ubuntu's and claimed to be second rate at best.
-Steve
[snipped]
Might a naive question, but why doesn't RedHat offer some backing to
this effort then?
Michael
8:10 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 08:31 +1200, Michael J. Knox wrote:
Stephen Krenzel wrote:
> I agree, but no one is going to give any money as long as Fedora is
> perceived to be backed by Red Hat. I have to admit, Fedora *is* Red
> Hat's baby, just as Ubuntu is Shuttleworth's baby, and OpenSuse is
> Novell's baby. I don't think that a lot of people would donate to any of
> these projects, except for a few exceptions. If OpenSuse started asking
> for money, people would laugh, a similar outcome would result with
> Fedora as well. I'm not sure what kind of resources it would take, but
> getting Red Hat or some other organization to donate a chunk of cash to
> Fedora so that we could give away free CDs ( similar to Ubuntu ) is the
> only way I really see any of these media plans working. Ubuntu set the
> "media distribution" bar high, and we aren't anywhere near it right
now.
> I don't think it is reasonable, nor wise, to ask someone to sit on a
> waiting list, especially when they can just go to a different
> distribution's site and be guaranteed a cd in a relatively short period
> of time. We simply are not being competitive enough in this aspect of
> marketing Fedora. This is not to put down the efforts that Fedora has
> made thus far, but until someone finds a way to allow free CDs (or a
> dvd) to be distributed for free upon request, our efforts will be
> compared to Ubuntu's and claimed to be second rate at best.
> -Steve
[snipped]
Might a naive question, but why doesn't RedHat offer some backing to
this effort then?
Michael
Shipping media internationally is very cost ineffective. The funds are
better put into improving important Free software projects.
Rahul
8:15 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 08:31 +1200, Michael J. Knox wrote:
> Stephen Krenzel wrote:
>> I agree, but no one is going to give any money as long as Fedora is
>> perceived to be backed by Red Hat. I have to admit, Fedora *is* Red
>> Hat's baby, just as Ubuntu is Shuttleworth's baby, and OpenSuse is
>> Novell's baby. I don't think that a lot of people would donate to any of
>> these projects, except for a few exceptions. If OpenSuse started asking
>> for money, people would laugh, a similar outcome would result with
>> Fedora as well. I'm not sure what kind of resources it would take, but
>> getting Red Hat or some other organization to donate a chunk of cash to
>> Fedora so that we could give away free CDs ( similar to Ubuntu ) is the
>> only way I really see any of these media plans working. Ubuntu set the
>> "media distribution" bar high, and we aren't anywhere near it right
now.
>> I don't think it is reasonable, nor wise, to ask someone to sit on a
>> waiting list, especially when they can just go to a different
>> distribution's site and be guaranteed a cd in a relatively short period
>> of time. We simply are not being competitive enough in this aspect of
>> marketing Fedora. This is not to put down the efforts that Fedora has
>> made thus far, but until someone finds a way to allow free CDs (or a
>> dvd) to be distributed for free upon request, our efforts will be
>> compared to Ubuntu's and claimed to be second rate at best.
>> -Steve
> [snipped]
>
> Might a naive question, but why doesn't RedHat offer some backing to
> this effort then?
>
> Michael
Shipping media internationally is very cost ineffective. The funds are
better put into improving important Free software projects.
I don't doubt that for a second. Nor was I suggesting RH foot the entire
bill.
Myself, I am more than happy suppling New Zealand any media requests.
However, Could RH not assist, even for local (as in US) media requests?
Then that can relieve the burden of US request and allow the continual
search for other sponsors to assist with other global regions?
Michael
8:31 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
Hi,
On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 13:15 +1200, Michael J Knox wrote:
I don't doubt that for a second. Nor was I suggesting RH foot the
entire
bill.
Myself, I am more than happy suppling New Zealand any media requests.
However, Could RH not assist, even for local (as in US) media requests?
Then that can relieve the burden of US request and allow the continual
search for other sponsors to assist with other global regions?
Michael
I still think you are underestimating costs. Red Hat already spends a
lot of amount shipping media to various places through the ambassadors
project.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/SteeringCommittee/Budget
If we continue doing this we would run out of money very soon and we
couldnt possibly justify that as a good expenditure next time around.
Look at this way. Roughly 1.5 million dollars for bandwidth alone for a
single year. Add to that engineering, infrastructure and marketing costs
for a zero direct revenue project.
In US, its relatively easy to buy media or download the ISO images
compared to various places where its much more harder to do either.
Granted, all these would be nice but the priorities are going to be
spending the funds on engineering rather than this.
Distributing the costs would make it much more effective. Local event
sponsors, free media, sponsored media and maybe even regional Red Hat
offices are better way to channel resources.
How can I donate is a FAQ.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Contribute
Rahul
9:20 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
[snip]
I still think you are underestimating costs. Red Hat already spends a
lot of amount shipping media to various places through the ambassadors
project.
Well, none of that has reached NZ ;)
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/SteeringCommittee/Budget
If we continue doing this we would run out of money very soon and we
couldnt possibly justify that as a good expenditure next time around.
Look at this way. Roughly 1.5 million dollars for bandwidth alone for a
single year. Add to that engineering, infrastructure and marketing costs
for a zero direct revenue project.
I didn't suggest RH foot the entire bill... Its escapes me how RH can be
FC/FE sponsor and not assist in funding _some_ of the free media requests.
In US, its relatively easy to buy media or download the ISO images
compared to various places where its much more harder to do either.
Granted, all these would be nice but the priorities are going to be
spending the funds on engineering rather than this.
NZ being one of those places where bandwidth costs (3.5Mb and 10Gb cap @
$60 NSD per month)
:-)
Distributing the costs would make it much more effective. Local
event
sponsors, free media, sponsored media and maybe even regional Red Hat
offices are better way to channel resources.
That's my point, which you seem to have missed...
My suggestion was (or question actually) is why doesn't RH help sponsor
free media? It's not a suggestion of footing the entire bill.
You can't honestly think 3rd party companies will back free media if RH
(fedora's parent) does not?
Michael
9:29 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 14:20 +1200, Michael J. Knox wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
[snip]
>
> I still think you are underestimating costs. Red Hat already spends a
> lot of amount shipping media to various places through the ambassadors
> project.
Well, none of that has reached NZ ;)
What do you mean by that? Which event?
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/SteeringCommittee/Budget
>
> If we continue doing this we would run out of money very soon and we
> couldnt possibly justify that as a good expenditure next time around.
> Look at this way. Roughly 1.5 million dollars for bandwidth alone for a
> single year. Add to that engineering, infrastructure and marketing costs
> for a zero direct revenue project.
I didn't suggest RH foot the entire bill... Its escapes me how RH can be
FC/FE sponsor and not assist in funding _some_ of the free media requests.
RH *already* foots the bill. DVD distribution makes up for a large
amount of the current event related expenditures in the above budget.
The logic that you spend so much on this already that you should be
spending more on related things even though it is known to be
ineffective and unjustifiable isnt going to go a long way.
> In US, its relatively easy to buy media or download the ISO images
> compared to various places where its much more harder to do either.
> Granted, all these would be nice but the priorities are going to be
> spending the funds on engineering rather than this.
NZ being one of those places where bandwidth costs (3.5Mb and 10Gb cap @
$60 NSD per month)
How about buying media? Are there magazines that distribute CD/DVD's?
Rahul
9:44 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
[snip]
RH *already* foots the bill. DVD distribution makes up for a large
amount of the current event related expenditures in the above budget.
The logic that you spend so much on this already that you should be
spending more on related things even though it is known to be
ineffective and unjustifiable isnt going to go a long way.
Is the DVD distribution feeding the free media project?
>> In US, its relatively easy to buy media or download the ISO
images
>> compared to various places where its much more harder to do either.
>> Granted, all these would be nice but the priorities are going to be
>> spending the funds on engineering rather than this.
> NZ being one of those places where bandwidth costs (3.5Mb and 10Gb cap @
> $60 NSD per month)
How about buying media? Are there magazines that distribute CD/DVD's?
New Zealand has 2 PC magazine's of its own. NetGuide and PC World. Both
only supply CD's to its readers, not DVDs and they load them with all
those really neat "make Windows run faster while deleting spyware" type
apps.
We get a handful of US and UK based Linux and PC mags, but for the PC
mags, its again, targeting Windows.
Michael
9:56 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 14:44 +1200, Michael J. Knox wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
[snip]
> RH *already* foots the bill. DVD distribution makes up for a large
> amount of the current event related expenditures in the above budget.
> The logic that you spend so much on this already that you should be
> spending more on related things even though it is known to be
> ineffective and unjustifiable isnt going to go a long way.
Is the DVD distribution feeding the free media project?
DVD distribution is feeding the events currently. There isnt value in it
though. The budget is better spend on other things that Red Hat is
strategically better placed to do rather than get into the media
distribution model again. Thats Red Hat Linux all over.
>>> In US, its relatively easy to buy media or download the ISO images
>>> compared to various places where its much more harder to do either.
>>> Granted, all these would be nice but the priorities are going to be
>>> spending the funds on engineering rather than this.
>> NZ being one of those places where bandwidth costs (3.5Mb and 10Gb cap @
>> $60 NSD per month)
>
> How about buying media? Are there magazines that distribute CD/DVD's?
New Zealand has 2 PC magazine's of its own. NetGuide and PC World. Both
only supply CD's to its readers, not DVDs and they load them with all
those really neat "make Windows run faster while deleting spyware" type
apps.
We get a handful of US and UK based Linux and PC mags, but for the PC
mags, its again, targeting Windows.
How about buying media?
Rahul
10:02 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
[snip]
> Is the DVD distribution feeding the free media project?
DVD distribution is feeding the events currently. There isnt value in it
though. The budget is better spend on other things that Red Hat is
strategically better placed to do rather than get into the media
distribution model again. Thats Red Hat Linux all over.
So that's a no to RH helping free media?
[snip]
> New Zealand has 2 PC magazine's of its own. NetGuide and PC
World. Both
> only supply CD's to its readers, not DVDs and they load them with all
> those really neat "make Windows run faster while deleting spyware" type
> apps.
>
> We get a handful of US and UK based Linux and PC mags, but for the PC
> mags, its again, targeting Windows.
How about buying media?
http://www.copyleft.co.nz/fedora.html ($35 NZD per DVD)
and
http://www.dse.co.nz - the only have FC3 AFAIK
Michael
10:16 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 15:02 +1200, Michael J. Knox wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
[snip]
>> Is the DVD distribution feeding the free media project?
>
> DVD distribution is feeding the events currently. There isnt value in it
> though. The budget is better spend on other things that Red Hat is
> strategically better placed to do rather than get into the media
> distribution model again. Thats Red Hat Linux all over.
So that's a no to RH helping free media?
If you mean free media project specifically, I am trying to help it out
through regional offices where possible rather than the US office
distributing media from a central location. Again, the cost of
distribution is much more producing stuff.
I dont think its Red Hat involved in free media is a scalable model and
I would want others to get involved in it more than RH. We are multiple
ways to address the distribution problem effectively.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/
Downloads
OEM
Online vendors
Local vendors
Free media
sponsored media
OEM
Books and magazines
For any amount of finite budget, we are trying to spend it where it
makes better sense. How many people think Red Hat should be spending the
money on free media distribution? Let me see a show of hands.
> How about buying media?
>
http://www.copyleft.co.nz/fedora.html ($35 NZD per DVD)
and
http://www.dse.co.nz - the only have FC3 AFAIK
I see others more updated here.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/OnlineVendors#head-31a80976287...
Rahul
11:11 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
Just a quick thought, feel free to knock it down if you so desire. What
about a "pass along" kind of setup. Where receivers of free media can opt in
to pass the media along when they are done installing it. For example, I
request a free media dvd and when signing up click "Yes, I'd like to pass it
along". I get added to a queue of free media distributors. When my time
comes up in the queue, I get a little e-mail saying "such and such has
requested free media, please pass it along to Address here, etc...". After I
confirm that I've passed it a long, I can be removed from the queue. With a
little logic to try and keep the sending of media fairly local I think this
could work out pretty well. Any thoughts? The full logistics behind it would
still need to be worked out, but I think I outlined the premise good enough.
The main thing I think this would help with is keeping costs for everyone
low, and keeping a constant stream of free media distributors flowing. It'd
also allow people to feel more involved with the community, as they've now
become a link in a chain of possibly many people who will receive the media
and who have already received it. My main concern would be quality control,
but that is nothing that can't be overcome :)
-Steve
On 5/2/06, Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 15:02 +1200, Michael J. Knox wrote:
> Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> [snip]
> >> Is the DVD distribution feeding the free media project?
> >
> > DVD distribution is feeding the events currently. There isnt value in
it
> > though. The budget is better spend on other things that Red Hat is
> > strategically better placed to do rather than get into the media
> > distribution model again. Thats Red Hat Linux all over.
>
> So that's a no to RH helping free media?
If you mean free media project specifically, I am trying to help it out
through regional offices where possible rather than the US office
distributing media from a central location. Again, the cost of
distribution is much more producing stuff.
I dont think its Red Hat involved in free media is a scalable model and
I would want others to get involved in it more than RH. We are multiple
ways to address the distribution problem effectively.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/
Downloads
OEM
Online vendors
Local vendors
Free media
sponsored media
OEM
Books and magazines
For any amount of finite budget, we are trying to spend it where it
makes better sense. How many people think Red Hat should be spending the
money on free media distribution? Let me see a show of hands.
> > How about buying media?
> >
>
>
> http://www.copyleft.co.nz/fedora.html ($35 NZD per DVD)
>
> and
>
> http://www.dse.co.nz - the only have FC3 AFAIK
I see others more updated here.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/OnlineVendors#head-31a80976287...
Rahul
--
Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
11:39 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 00:11 -0400, Stephen Krenzel wrote:
Just a quick thought, feel free to knock it down if you so desire.
What about a "pass along" kind of setup. Where receivers of free media
can opt in to pass the media along when they are done installing it.
For example, I request a free media dvd and when signing up click
"Yes, I'd like to pass it along". I get added to a queue of free media
distributors. When my time comes up in the queue, I get a little e-
mail saying "such and such has requested free media, please pass it
along to Address here, etc...". After I confirm that I've passed it a
long, I can be removed from the queue. With a little logic to try and
keep the sending of media fairly local I think this could work out
pretty well. Any thoughts? The full logistics behind it would still
need to be worked out, but I think I outlined the premise good enough.
The main thing I think this would help with is keeping costs for
everyone low, and keeping a constant stream of free media distributors
flowing. It'd also allow people to feel more involved with the
community, as they've now become a link in a chain of possibly many
people who will receive the media and who have already received it. My
main concern would be quality control, but that is nothing that can't
be overcome :)
-Steve
Thats a good idea. We will have to look at it when we have a good
tracker in place. The infrastructure team is looking at OTRS
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Schedule
Rahul
11:43 a.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On Wed, 3 May 2006, Stephen Krenzel wrote:
Just a quick thought, feel free to knock it down if you so desire.
What
about a "pass along" kind of setup. Where receivers of free media can opt in
to pass the media along when they are done installing it. For example, I
request a free media dvd and when signing up click "Yes, I'd like to pass it
along". I get added to a queue of free media distributors. When my time
comes up in the queue, I get a little e-mail saying "such and such has
requested free media, please pass it along to Address here, etc...". After I
confirm that I've passed it a long, I can be removed from the queue. With a
little logic to try and keep the sending of media fairly local I think this
could work out pretty well. Any thoughts? The full logistics behind it would
still need to be worked out, but I think I outlined the premise good enough.
The main thing I think this would help with is keeping costs for everyone
low, and keeping a constant stream of free media distributors flowing. It'd
also allow people to feel more involved with the community, as they've now
become a link in a chain of possibly many people who will receive the media
and who have already received it. My main concern would be quality control,
but that is nothing that can't be overcome :)
-Steve
Interesting idea. Creative. :)
I think that the workflow we're considering building could be retrofitted
to make this happen. An intriguing idea.
--g
-------------------------------------------------------------
Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org
Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors
-------------------------------------------------------------
12:41 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On 5/3/06, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com> wrote:
I think that the workflow we're considering building could be
retrofitted
to make this happen. An intriguing idea.
Want to own it/make it happen? I like it a lot!
a
1:35 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On 5/3/06, Stephen Krenzel <sgk284(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Just a quick thought, feel free to knock it down if you so desire.
What
about a "pass along" kind of setup. Where receivers of free media can opt in
to pass the media along when they are done installing it.
The value of a working rescue environment on media that you can lay
your hands on imeediately in times of severe system problems is
invaluable. I would never ever recommend someone purposely giving away
the only copy of the media in their possession which has the rescue
environment. And while this sort of "sloppy seconds" distribution of
a single piece of installation media may make sense in a closely
associated community of people who know each other,
Additionally I would definitely fear for the quality of passed-along
media after a small finite number of pass-alongs. Anyone who uses
netflix service knows exactly what I'm talking about. And I think you
grossly underestimate how difficult it will be to deal with the
quality issues... let alone deal with tracking how much of the media
which falls off the map competely and isn't passed on. Without a
central organization through which media returns and then gets sent
back out from.. there is zero quality control or tracking of the media
in circulation. I do not think its in fedora's best interest to
encourage the re-distribution of media over and over again that does
not make a serious effort at media defect tracking.
Even if you can have a centralized system for tracking.. you still
leave users in the lurk by encouraging them to give up the rescue
environment available on the installation media. I care far more about
making sure people have equitable access to recovery tools than i do
about the sheer number of people who have fedora installed. The people
who need free media are also going to be the people who are going to
be in a huge panic if they have a system problem later and need the
rescue environment to sort it out.
-jef
1:41 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On 5/3/06, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com> wrote:
And while this sort of "sloppy seconds" distribution of
a single piece of installation media may make sense in a closely
associated community of people who know each other,
oops,, let me finish that thought...
while this sort of "sloppy seconds" distribution of
a single piece of installation media may make sense in a closely
associated community of people who know each other, it will severely
hamper access to a working rescue environment for people who are not
closely connected to other fedora users who will have media on hand.
Think very hard about what group of users you expect to use such an
organized pass along approach... its going to be the people who will
be screwed if they ever find themselves in a situation where they need
the rescue environment. People who are already associated with a
community group like a LUG or in a college dorm already have access to
"pass along" copies most likely and such an arganized project is
overkill.
-jef
4:13 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
Good discussion. My $0.02 inline.
On Tue, 2 May 2006, Stephen Krenzel wrote:
I agree, but no one is going to give any money as long as Fedora is
perceived to be backed by Red Hat.
Nope. No one's going to "give money to Fedora." Especially not if we put
it that way.
The question real question looks more like this: "you've come to this site
to buy a DVD for $10. Will you pay another $10 to send a DVD to someone
else? Since you've already got your credit card out, and all?"
And that's a proposition that I think people *will* warm up to. Maybe we
can sweeten the pot by adding "...and by the way, if you do, you also get
this kick-ass bumper sticker that says 'I gave the gift of Fedora'."
I have to admit, Fedora *is* Red Hat's baby, just as Ubuntu is
Shuttleworth's baby, and OpenSuse is Novell's baby. I don't think that a
lot of people would donate to any of these projects, except for a few
exceptions.
I have a constant barrage of people asking "how can I help Fedora? I
don't code, I don't write docs, and I don't have the time to file bugs,
but I love what you guys do. Can I help somehow?"
I want the answer to be "hell, yes. You can give the gift of Fedora, and
it's dead simple. Cost you, like, ten bucks, and you also get a wicked
cool bumper sticker."
If OpenSuse started asking for money, people would laugh, a similar
outcome would result with Fedora as well.
Depends on how you ask.
I'm not sure what kind of resources it would take, but getting
Red Hat
or some other organization to donate a chunk of cash to Fedora so that
we could give away free CDs ( similar to Ubuntu ) is the only way I
really see any of these media plans working. Ubuntu set the "media
distribution" bar high, and we aren't anywhere near it right now.
I do know what kind of resources it would take -- and it takes plenty.
We're not equipped to do it properly. Simple as that. Red Hat, as a
small publicly traded company, has responsibilities for the money we
spend, in a way that a billionaire hobbyist does not.
Moreover, the Ubuntu plan presumes that you're going to get *lots* of DVDs
and distribute them all yourself. Great for LUGs and such... but for
novices who are looking to get their feet wet, I don't think this model
scales. I think that Sponsored Media, done properly, could. Especially
in developing countries.
I don't think it is reasonable, nor wise, to ask someone to sit
on a
waiting list, especially when they can just go to a different
distribution's site and be guaranteed a cd in a relatively short period
of time.
If Distributed Media is successful enough, we should be able to keep a
fairly short queue. If we're *very* successful, we should be able to
drive a neagtive queue. And by the way, the first time I requested Ubuntu
DVDs, it took them four months to arrive. Your mileage may vary.
We simply are not being competitive enough in this aspect of
marketing
Fedora. This is not to put down the efforts that Fedora has made thus
far, but until someone finds a way to allow free CDs (or a dvd) to be
distributed for free upon request, our efforts will be compared to
Ubuntu's and claimed to be second rate at best.
Then we'll have to live with that -- because all those CDs and DVDs cost
money. At Red Hat, we can either ship 50,000 DVDs all over the world, or
we can pay a world-class open source engineer. Our success to date is a
direct result of our ability to answer that question correctly.
--g
-------------------------------------------------------------
Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org
Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors
-------------------------------------------------------------
8:17 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
On 5/2/06, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com> wrote:
The question real question looks more like this: "you've come to this site
to buy a DVD for $10. Will you pay another $10 to send a DVD to someone
else? Since you've already got your credit card out, and all?"
What about making the price $20?
Why is my DVD of free software $20? Because you aren't buying a DVD, you're
now a patron of the revolution:
-you get a DVD
-you get a sticker
-you get the warm fuzzy that someone else gets one now
-your pledges help NPR bring you great shows that... well not that one, but
it's the same idea
--jeremy
7:52 p.m.
New subject: Turning off Paid Adverts for Sponsored Media
I volunteer to write such an article--it is long overdue for me to
write something about the Ambassadors anyway.
Look for it in the June issue of the Magazine though, since we have
definitely missed the submission deadline for May (it's May 1 FYI).
On 5/2/06, Jeremy Hogan <jeremy.hogan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
It's also possible that if RH put RH muscle behind it (e.g. in
Red Hat Magazine) more eyes would see it
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marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
21 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
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Alex -
Greg DeKoenigsberg -
Jef Spaleta -
Jeremy Hogan -
Karlie Robinson -
Michael J. Knox -
Rahul Sundaram -
Stephen Krenzel