Kaltura.com is a good alternative. The rule *should* be to use open standards whenever possible and convert content to non-free if needed.
The only thing I wanted to pint out is that if s/o wants to remix content, he should be able to do it with open standards.
So to reiterate - I do *not* oppose usinge youtube, I *do* want to stress however that "open first" should not be ignored.
So I propose:
- make content *always* available in open standards. - use youtube etc for distribution when alternatives suck, but *always* point the viewer to the open standard alternatives (in the description field etc)
I hope you see that I am not a fundamentalist, I am pragmatic but I want to make sure we do it right.
If we offer no oepn alternatives, THEN you will get the fundamentalist discussion - and for a good reason IMHO.
Using your arguments in a little bit of exaggerated way would lead for example to using Adobe Illustrator for artwork, Photoshop for other stuff and would exclude those that don't have these tools ...
Jan
----- Original Message ----- From: marketing-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org marketing-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Sat Apr 10 11:29:27 2010 Subject: Re: Fedora and Video Sharing
On Sat, 2010-04-10 at 10:57 -0400, Jan Wildeboer wrote:
Youtube however uses the H.264 codec which is patent encumbered and only viewable on Fedora after installing either (proprietary) Flash or not-so-well-licensed codecs from external repos.
One of the four F's of Fedora is Freedom. Youtube is not adding to freedom. Its the price you pay for convenience.
What would you suggest for an reliable alternative that can provide:
# user friendliness # decent connectivity # a wide audience as youtube?
Up to this point, it's constructive. From this point on, it's a private view and should be faced as such.
As a personal comment, for a second I saw that "freedom" almost as I see "despotism". It's because of the availability of proprietary software for Linux and close standards that I use it (and that makes of it an alternative to other proprietary OS's), else I would be stuck with Windows (as FOSS doesn't provide everything for users needs). I understand that we should promote open standards, but that will handicap a campaign and will probably not give as much impact as it would. Even for the artists making it, it's a huge cutdown on their efforts. Do we really need to be so narrow? can't we actually provide it both ways and make our official stuff on a non-offending format, but also make it available on youtube?
"In America, through pressure of conformity, there is "freedom of choice", but nothing to choose from" - Peter Ustinov.
nm
PS: This comment translates a personal view.
Jan
----- Original Message ----- From: marketing-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org marketing-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Sat Apr 10 10:17:18 2010 Subject: Re: Fedora and Video Sharing
As long as the website offers good connectivity worldwide should be ok. Youtube should be nice since it has akamai behind also.
The importance of prime channels of distribution should be a concern, and Youtube provides the necessary points for it, either from the audience point of view or distribution.
+1.
nm
On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 16:23 -0400, Nicholas Ozorak wrote:
Dear Anyone with an interest in video distribution,
My name is Nick Ozorak, and I am one of the students from Allegheny College who has just come in to help with the Fedora Project. My particular field of expertise is in video creation and distribution, as I already have my own video-web series. I'm one of five students who's looking into the issue of how videos about Fedora can be distributed online.
I saw in the archives that there was recently a discussion about Fedora and where videos showcasing the project should be hosted. Internet Archive was mentioned, as well as Dailymotion. Based off of my experience, both of these websites are decent places to host video, but they don't receive as much traffic as the granddaddy of them all - YouTube. As a consumer, when I am looking for videos regarding technological developments, YouTube is where I go first.
I am aware that some people are uncomfortable with relying on YouTube and Flash, but there may be a solution to satisfy everyone. One idea that I have come up with is:
- Set up official Fedora Project accounts on websites like Internet
Archive and Dailymotion.
- Create videos on these accounts to establish them as being
officially part of the Fedora Project (welcome videos, tutorials, features of Fedora, etc).
Designate people to be official Fedora Project Video Account Managers.
Allow other video creators and content developers to showcase their
Fedora-related work on the official channel(s) by sending their video to the Account Master(s) for consideration. If accepted, these videos would be added to the official channel.
- Open a YouTube account, and ask people if they are comfortable with
having their work(s) displayed on YouTube and/or other Flash-based websites.
I'd be more than happy to discuss this idea in an IRC chat with those who are interested. I would also be curious to find out what results previous discussions about this issue have yielded and get a sense of what people's opinions are.
I will also add that I had never heard of Fedora before one of my professors started discussing it in class. Once Mel Chua came to speak with our class and explain how this open-source community worked, I began to understand. Having videos that explain the goals of the Fedora Project to those who have heard little to nothing about the project would be extremely beneficial with regards to outreach.
Thanks for reading, and good luck with preparing for the big release!
Nick
-- Nelson Marques PGP Fingerprint: 53E1 731B 85A4 A098 8382 8CFF 1AC7 AF01 7717 8063
-- marketing mailing list marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
On Sat, 2010-04-10 at 11:55 -0400, Jan Wildeboer wrote:
Kaltura.com is a good alternative. The rule *should* be to use open standards whenever possible and convert content to non-free if needed.
The only thing I wanted to pint out is that if s/o wants to remix content, he should be able to do it with open standards.
So to reiterate - I do *not* oppose usinge youtube, I *do* want to stress however that "open first" should not be ignored.
So I propose:
- make content *always* available in open standards.
- use youtube etc for distribution when alternatives suck, but *always*
point the viewer to the open standard alternatives (in the description field etc)
I hope you see that I am not a fundamentalist, I am pragmatic but I want to make sure we do it right.
No, but I like to see arguments as you present them. My interest is only pointing that distribution channels are important and we can get probably most profit (not revenue) if we use that most people use. So by understanding the "consumer profile" we can response accordingly. Of course that our official statements and such can be forwarded to Kaltura or any other alternative. But placing it on youtube would also be nice.
If we offer no oepn alternatives, THEN you will get the fundamentalist discussion - and for a good reason IMHO.
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not against alternatives, my councern is:
We point someone to a website: all the established audience will see it.
(but in addition if it's on youtube, then many more people will end up seeing it, so we get our message through a much wider audience, eventually this will serve our promotion goals better, and of course, having popular artists tagging with us will also bring more artists to us. Considering that if one of our artists gets 2 million hits, I would suppose he would love to contribute even more then having less hits).
Using your arguments in a little bit of exaggerated way would lead for example to using Adobe Illustrator for artwork, Photoshop for other stuff and would exclude those that don't have these tools ...
That's not what I had in mind. There are some tools (in my field data mining and data analysis that if they were not present in Linux, I wouldn't be able to swap from whatever to Linux). The open source alternatives are not mature, and probably will never be mature. If we look at the "Cathedral and Bazaar", you will find that most Marketing professionals are not programmers, so that model applied to "PSPP" for example would never work. The maturity level between PSPP and IBM alternative SPSS is abyssal. (http://www.gnu.org/software/pspp/ VS http://www.spss.com).
Using your examples, my GIMP knowledge is enough for dropping Photoshop... my Corel skills are a good reason for not using Inkscape. But that isn't a problem for me because I'm not an artist neither I produce artistic content, just some casual photo editing, color messing, cropping, etc.
Considering the achievement of the last 10 years, and looking to the future in maybe a naive way, but I could say that eventually FOSS has everything to become industry mainstream... we're mainly lacking some market volume shares for it happen (and that won't happen based on Cathedral and Bazaar model).
Anyway, neither I've taken you by a radical, neither I want to sound like a radical. I'm trying to see if we can hit a wider audience and get more proffit (not revenue) out of it.
nelson.
Jan
----- Original Message ----- From: marketing-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org marketing-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Sat Apr 10 11:29:27 2010 Subject: Re: Fedora and Video Sharing
On Sat, 2010-04-10 at 10:57 -0400, Jan Wildeboer wrote:
Youtube however uses the H.264 codec which is patent encumbered and only viewable on Fedora after installing either (proprietary) Flash or not-so-well-licensed codecs from external repos.
One of the four F's of Fedora is Freedom. Youtube is not adding to freedom. Its the price you pay for convenience.
What would you suggest for an reliable alternative that can provide:
# user friendliness # decent connectivity # a wide audience as youtube?
Up to this point, it's constructive. From this point on, it's a private view and should be faced as such.
As a personal comment, for a second I saw that "freedom" almost as I see "despotism". It's because of the availability of proprietary software for Linux and close standards that I use it (and that makes of it an alternative to other proprietary OS's), else I would be stuck with Windows (as FOSS doesn't provide everything for users needs). I understand that we should promote open standards, but that will handicap a campaign and will probably not give as much impact as it would. Even for the artists making it, it's a huge cutdown on their efforts. Do we really need to be so narrow? can't we actually provide it both ways and make our official stuff on a non-offending format, but also make it available on youtube?
"In America, through pressure of conformity, there is "freedom of choice", but nothing to choose from" - Peter Ustinov.
nm
PS: This comment translates a personal view.
Jan
----- Original Message ----- From: marketing-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org marketing-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Sat Apr 10 10:17:18 2010 Subject: Re: Fedora and Video Sharing
As long as the website offers good connectivity worldwide should be ok. Youtube should be nice since it has akamai behind also.
The importance of prime channels of distribution should be a concern, and Youtube provides the necessary points for it, either from the audience point of view or distribution.
+1.
nm
On Fri, 2010-04-09 at 16:23 -0400, Nicholas Ozorak wrote:
Dear Anyone with an interest in video distribution,
My name is Nick Ozorak, and I am one of the students from Allegheny College who has just come in to help with the Fedora Project. My particular field of expertise is in video creation and distribution, as I already have my own video-web series. I'm one of five students who's looking into the issue of how videos about Fedora can be distributed online.
I saw in the archives that there was recently a discussion about Fedora and where videos showcasing the project should be hosted. Internet Archive was mentioned, as well as Dailymotion. Based off of my experience, both of these websites are decent places to host video, but they don't receive as much traffic as the granddaddy of them all - YouTube. As a consumer, when I am looking for videos regarding technological developments, YouTube is where I go first.
I am aware that some people are uncomfortable with relying on YouTube and Flash, but there may be a solution to satisfy everyone. One idea that I have come up with is:
- Set up official Fedora Project accounts on websites like Internet
Archive and Dailymotion.
- Create videos on these accounts to establish them as being
officially part of the Fedora Project (welcome videos, tutorials, features of Fedora, etc).
Designate people to be official Fedora Project Video Account Managers.
Allow other video creators and content developers to showcase their
Fedora-related work on the official channel(s) by sending their video to the Account Master(s) for consideration. If accepted, these videos would be added to the official channel.
- Open a YouTube account, and ask people if they are comfortable with
having their work(s) displayed on YouTube and/or other Flash-based websites.
I'd be more than happy to discuss this idea in an IRC chat with those who are interested. I would also be curious to find out what results previous discussions about this issue have yielded and get a sense of what people's opinions are.
I will also add that I had never heard of Fedora before one of my professors started discussing it in class. Once Mel Chua came to speak with our class and explain how this open-source community worked, I began to understand. Having videos that explain the goals of the Fedora Project to those who have heard little to nothing about the project would be extremely beneficial with regards to outreach.
Thanks for reading, and good luck with preparing for the big release!
Nick
-- Nelson Marques PGP Fingerprint: 53E1 731B 85A4 A098 8382 8CFF 1AC7 AF01 7717 8063
-- marketing mailing list marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
-- Nelson Marques PGP Fingerprint: 53E1 731B 85A4 A098 8382 8CFF 1AC7 AF01 7717 8063
-- marketing mailing list marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
On Sat 10 April 2010 9:17:43 am Nelson Marques wrote:
Using your arguments in a little bit of exaggerated way would lead
for
example to using Adobe Illustrator for artwork, Photoshop for other stuff and would exclude those that don't have these tools ...
That's not what I had in mind. There are some tools (in my field data mining and data analysis that if they were not present in Linux, I wouldn't be able to swap from whatever to Linux). The open source alternatives are not mature, and probably will never be mature. If we look at the "Cathedral and Bazaar", you will find that most Marketing professionals are not programmers, so that model applied to "PSPP" for example would never work. The maturity level between PSPP and IBM alternative SPSS is abyssal. (http://www.gnu.org/software/pspp/VS http://www.spss.com).
And personally, this is the biggest problem which I see in Eric Raymond's views. When it comes down to it, we're only hurting ourselves in the long run to provide our content primarily on non-free distribution channels primarily, with the "other" "non-user-friendly" distribution channels being an afterthought as you seem to be implying. I respect Eric Raymond occasionally, but this is simply irresponsible to our community in the long term view. Our content should be available and advertised in _free_ formats first and foremost with the non-free channels to be "second class" citizens, rather than our freely available content. This keeps people like me and countless others in Fedora who look at non- free content as a detriment to our distribution, while also catering to the mainstream.
Using your examples, my GIMP knowledge is enough for dropping Photoshop... my Corel skills are a good reason for not using Inkscape. But that isn't a problem for me because I'm not an artist neither I produce artistic content, just some casual photo editing, color messing, cropping, etc.
Considering the achievement of the last 10 years, and looking to the future in maybe a naive way, but I could say that eventually FOSS has everything to become industry mainstream... we're mainly lacking some market volume shares for it happen (and that won't happen based on Cathedral and Bazaar model).
Here's the big thing I see when applying the Cathedral and the Bazaar "model" to this case: ESR wrote that with attracting _users_ to the software. We, as Fedora marketing, are looking to attract contributors as well. There comes a specific turning point where someone involved in our distro as a user realizes that things like this are important and need to be considered. We are marketing to those people as well, people who _will_ care about free content at the end of the day.
Anyway, neither I've taken you by a radical, neither I want to sound like a radical. I'm trying to see if we can hit a wider audience and get more proffit (not revenue) out of it.
And IMO this can be done by providing our content as free first and foremost, rather than as an afterthought. This is why I like Nick's original proposal. It's not despotism, but pragmatism.
nelson.
Ryan
On Sat, 2010-04-10 at 11:55 -0400, Jan Wildeboer wrote:
Kaltura.com is a good alternative. The rule *should* be to use open standards whenever possible and convert content to non-free if needed.
never heard of it, will check it out
- make content *always* available in open standards.
- use youtube etc for distribution when alternatives suck, but *always*
point the viewer to the open standard alternatives (in the description field etc)
This is what I was thinking but I think we need to get archive.org up and running first so it can be be our main repo
On Sun, 2010-04-11 at 10:53 -0400, threethirty wrote:
On Sat, 2010-04-10 at 11:55 -0400, Jan Wildeboer wrote:
Kaltura.com is a good alternative. The rule *should* be to use open standards whenever possible and convert content to non-free if needed.
never heard of it, will check it out
- make content *always* available in open standards.
- use youtube etc for distribution when alternatives suck, but *always*
point the viewer to the open standard alternatives (in the description field etc)
This is what I was thinking but I think we need to get archive.org up and running first so it can be be our main repo
Though I'm not very fond of php in favour of cgi/perl/c, do you think this would be helpfull ?
nelson.
On Sun, 2010-04-11 at 16:39 +0100, Nelson Marques wrote:
On Sun, 2010-04-11 at 10:53 -0400, threethirty wrote:
On Sat, 2010-04-10 at 11:55 -0400, Jan Wildeboer wrote:
Kaltura.com is a good alternative. The rule *should* be to use open standards whenever possible and convert content to non-free if needed.
never heard of it, will check it out
- make content *always* available in open standards.
- use youtube etc for distribution when alternatives suck, but *always*
point the viewer to the open standard alternatives (in the description field etc)
This is what I was thinking but I think we need to get archive.org up and running first so it can be be our main repo
Though I'm not very fond of php in favour of cgi/perl/c, do you think this would be helpfull ?
We have/had already discussed hosting it all ourselves (my favorite idea) but that would take a lot of resources that we aren't sure we can get or would be worth getting.
Don't get me wrong all of our videos are great and so are the people that make them but at this would take a lot of bandwidth and a lot of space (believe me I know I have an HTML5 video page that hosts Theora files)
With Mozilla, Google, and Opera all supporting HTML with Theora we can dump the vids on Archive.org (henceforth a.o I'm tried to typing the whole thing out) we can have both (software) Freedom and cool embedded videos.
Agree that Youtube is a juggernaut and we can't leave them out but they should be in the second phase of this. Let's stop bickering and get to work on a.o and then we can bring this all back up when the time draws nearer.
hy there,
Am 11.04.2010 17:39, schrieb Nelson Marques:
This is what I was thinking but I think we need to get archive.org up and running first so it can be be our main repo
Though I'm not very fond of php in favour of cgi/perl/c, do you think this would be helpfull ?
nelson.
I think it is a good idea to look how others do it. But as mentioned before we had allready the discussion of hosting ourself (high costs, reliability, administrative tasts, etc.) if there are plenty of ressources we could use. Also your example has another flaw: it is not open as can be seen at http://phpmotion.com/content/view/44/190/. It would be against the philosophy of the Fedoraproject to use propriety or constricted Software / plattforms. The flaw in php-security I will not begin. But to look after some Opensource piece of cgi/perl/c code for better handling, etc. seem to be nice. I think Jörg pointed out some gallery http://jsimon.fedorapeople.org/events/2009/ and e.g. can that be used plus maybe our upcoming Zikula / FedoraInsight for some of those tasks to combine existing media and point them to our own content.
mit freundlichen Grüßen / best regards Henrik Heigl - wonderer@fedoraproject.org
PGP/GnuPG: 8237 D432 0616 D567 DBC6 3FE3 0D52 B374 F468 A5F0
Wonderer,
You are right. I haven't gone for licences neither I spent much time looking for alternatives. What I am trying to say is... if there is some software that can work out for your needs and the problem is only related to infra-structure: hardware and connectivity, I am sure that can be arranged (in Europe). It's one phone call away.
Are any artists here willing to start such a community, inside Fedora or even as a general open source platform?
I have payed some attention to mizmo's post on my blog and I'm looking into it... but feel free to share on what are the real needs of the artists, from version control and such and point software alternatives... If it goes costy for Fedora in terms of hardware and bandwidth, I'm sure that can be arranged for the project or for a private initiative.
This is a bit out of scope of this thread. Anyway, my concerns were to not to attack opensource projects or whatever, they were in the scope of trying to reach a higher audience which would possibly benefict us as a project. I understand the licensing issues and the concerns about H.264. Fine, I rest my case regarding that. If there is something I can do to help overcome that hardware/connectivity/resources, I'm sure that can be arranged :)
Even if no one wants to take this, feel free to provide valid input, because I might use it around PLUG in a nearby future.
nelson
On Sun, 2010-04-11 at 22:08 +0200, wonderer wrote:
hy there,
Am 11.04.2010 17:39, schrieb Nelson Marques:
This is what I was thinking but I think we need to get archive.org up and running first so it can be be our main repo
Though I'm not very fond of php in favour of cgi/perl/c, do you think this would be helpfull ?
nelson.
I think it is a good idea to look how others do it. But as mentioned before we had allready the discussion of hosting ourself (high costs, reliability, administrative tasts, etc.) if there are plenty of ressources we could use. Also your example has another flaw: it is not open as can be seen at http://phpmotion.com/content/view/44/190/. It would be against the philosophy of the Fedoraproject to use propriety or constricted Software / plattforms. The flaw in php-security I will not begin. But to look after some Opensource piece of cgi/perl/c code for better handling, etc. seem to be nice. I think Jörg pointed out some gallery http://jsimon.fedorapeople.org/events/2009/ and e.g. can that be used plus maybe our upcoming Zikula / FedoraInsight for some of those tasks to combine existing media and point them to our own content.
mit freundlichen Grüßen / best regards Henrik Heigl - wonderer@fedoraproject.org
PGP/GnuPG: 8237 D432 0616 D567 DBC6 3FE3 0D52 B374 F468 A5F0
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
Jan Wildeboer -
Nelson Marques -
Ryan Rix -
threethirty -
wonderer