EMEA Media, All desktop spins on one disc, All full install DVDs on one disc

[Sascha Thomas Spreitzer]

Dear freedorians,

we were researching the technical possibility of putting more then one
live cd on one disc.
The proof of concept succeded with these F13 compilations:
http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/torrents/

Zoltan Hoppar and the media company in Munich came up with the idea to
use dual layered DVD discs, which will allow us to store arround 8.5
GB of data.
This is where we are a looking now at the following proposed future
Fedora compilations:

- All desktop spins and related archs on one disc. ( Gnome, KDE, LXDE,
XFCE, Moblin - i686, x86_64 - arround 7GB ) PoC succeded. Tested and
working.
- All installer data and related arch on one disc. ( Full Fedora -
i686, x86_64 - arround 6.5GB ) PoC needed! Blocked due to anaconda
installer options and data paths/devices ( stage2 / repo ).

I requested a pricing quote from the media company in Munich for the
upper scenario,
the result is ~1,000.00 EUR cost savings while producing the same
amount of media ( 5,000 pcs ).
http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/mediaquotes/F14/quote_121010_DE.pdf

(We could even produce 10,000 pcs while staying in the budget for EMEA.)

My questions are:
- Can we solve the blocker on anaconda for the installer compilation?
- Should we start this approach by F14?

- By looking at F15, could we strip a "choose
live-desktop/arch/install" all-in-one dual layer disc?


Thoughts on hardware compatability:
By comment of the media company in Munich: Dual layer DVDs are not
compatible to all dvd players. But to most of them.
( Every DVD player who can play a movie DVD is likely compatible. )
In my humble opinion this is not a blocker for Fedora, which is about
being first and rapid releasing near to cutting edge.

-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / with kind regards,
Sascha Thomas Spreitzer

http://spreitzer.name/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Sspreitzer

Warum mache ich überhaupt dieses ganze OpenSource Zeugs?
Lesen Sie hier, warum;
http://de.windows7sins.org/

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Mittwoch, den 13.10.2010, 12:17 +0200 schrieb Sascha Thomas
Spreitzer:

>  My questions are:
>  - Can we solve the blocker on anaconda for the installer compilation? 
Definitely not in time for F14 because at this point no more changes to
anaconda should happen.

>  - Should we start this approach by F14? 
IMHO yes, but only for the live media.

>  - By looking at F15, could we strip a "choose
>  live-desktop/arch/install" all-in-one dual layer disc? 
This needs to be discussed on fedora-devel and on anaconda list. Once it
is technically possible, we can discuss this on this list again.

>  Thoughts on hardware compatability:
>  By comment of the media company in Munich: Dual layer DVDs are not
>  compatible to all dvd players. But to most of them.
>  ( Every DVD player who can play a movie DVD is likely compatible. )
>  In my humble opinion this is not a blocker for Fedora, which is about
>  being first and rapid releasing near to cutting edge. 
I agree. Also by using normal DVDs for the install media, we would still
cover hardware that is not capable of doing dual layer.

You mentioned that dual layer is slower which might be a drawback for
the live media. The question is: Is it noticeable so we need to take it
into account?

Regards,
Christoph

[Sascha Thomas Spreitzer]

>  You mentioned that dual layer is slower which might be a drawback
> for
>  the live media. The question is: Is it noticeable so we need to take it
>  into account? 
Relating the hardware and bus system one is using it could drain speed.
The laser is switching between two data surfaces.

This behaviour is identical to movie DVD reading.

I do have no clue, whether this would impact our users Live media
experience. Any Ideas?


-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / with kind regards,
Sascha Thomas Spreitzer

http://spreitzer.name/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Sspreitzer

Warum mache ich überhaupt dieses ganze OpenSource Zeugs?
Lesen Sie hier, warum;
http://de.windows7sins.org/

[Arthur Buliva]

The first question coming to my mind is whether this requires any additional
special hardware to read

On Oct 13, 2010 1:48 PM, "Sascha Thomas Spreitzer" <
sspreitzer(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:

>  You mentioned that dual layer is slower which might be a drawback
> for
>  the live media. The questi... 
Relating the hardware and bus system one is using it
could drain speed.
The laser is switching between two data surfaces.

This behaviour is identical to movie DVD reading.

I do have no clue, whether this would impact our users Live media
experience. Any Ideas?



-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / with kind regards,
Sascha Thomas Spreitzer

http://spreitzer.name/
h...

ambassadors mailing list
ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman...

[Jukka Palander, IT Development Spain]

On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 12:17 +0200, Sascha Thomas Spreitzer wrote:
>  Dear freedorians,
>  
>  we were researching the technical possibility of putting more then one
>  live cd on one disc. 
clip, clip...

OK. I understand that we are still keeping old live CDs and Installation
DVDs in place. Anyhow my thoughts are that:

1) dual layer discs are expensive
2) dual layer discs are much more unreliable
3) dual layer discs does not work on every DVD-reader (especially old
computers)
4) dual layer discs are slower to read

This leads me into the question that:

1) Do we (Fedora) get "bad-will" from it when people feel that;
 -it is so big to download
 -it is not working on my computer after (a long) download
 -disk is damaged too easily etc.
 -it is so huge package (others are much smaller)

2) How does this affect to Freemedia project?
 -do we contributors have to buy those much more expensive discs to burn
and send freemedia?
 -how are we sure people really understand that it is probably not
working in all computers (especially in developing areas where freemedia
requests are in place the most)
 -does this make it more difficult to spread out Fedora media by
volunteers who are not inside the Fedora-project? ->people who are
friends of someone and who wants a media and then they find is so big
(and media expensive) that they leave it in there... ????
 -mobile broadband users start requesting more Freemedia because the
package is so big and therefore we are receiving more requests from
places we thing everyone have a proper fast wired broadband!

I do not know. My quick opinion is that maybe we should make what the
demand is and at least for me it is to be able to hand out an
installation DVD which is working for both i686 and 64bit (because
people do not know which one they are using) but only have Gnome.

Does this kind of compilation fit into the one normal single layer DVD?

Requests for other desktops (KDE and XCFE) are quite small, but this is
my opinion only based on the queries I have received.

--
Jukka

[Scott Dowdle]

Greetings,

----- Original Message -----
>  On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 12:17 +0200, Sascha Thomas Spreitzer wrote:
>  > Dear freedorians,
>  >
>  > we were researching the technical possibility of putting more then
>  > one
>  > live cd on one disc.
>  
>  clip, clip...
>  
>  OK. I understand that we are still keeping old live CDs and
>  Installation
>  DVDs in place. Anyhow my thoughts are that:
>  
>  1) dual layer discs are expensive
>  2) dual layer discs are much more unreliable
>  3) dual layer discs does not work on every DVD-reader (especially old
>  computers)
>  4) dual layer discs are slower to read
>  
>  This leads me into the question that:
>  
>  1) Do we (Fedora) get "bad-will" from it when people feel that;
>  -it is so big to download
>  -it is not working on my computer after (a long) download
>  -disk is damaged too easily etc.
>  -it is so huge package (others are much smaller)
>  
>  2) How does this affect to Freemedia project?
>  -do we contributors have to buy those much more expensive discs to
>  burn
>  and send freemedia?
>  -how are we sure people really understand that it is probably not
>  working in all computers (especially in developing areas where
>  freemedia
>  requests are in place the most)
>  -does this make it more difficult to spread out Fedora media by
>  volunteers who are not inside the Fedora-project? ->people who are
>  friends of someone and who wants a media and then they find is so big
>  (and media expensive) that they leave it in there... ????
>  -mobile broadband users start requesting more Freemedia because the
>  package is so big and therefore we are receiving more requests from
>  places we thing everyone have a proper fast wired broadband!
>  
>  I do not know. My quick opinion is that maybe we should make what the
>  demand is and at least for me it is to be able to hand out an
>  installation DVD which is working for both i686 and 64bit (because
>  people do not know which one they are using) but only have Gnome.
>  
>  Does this kind of compilation fit into the one normal single layer
>  DVD?
>  
>  Requests for other desktops (KDE and XCFE) are quite small, but this
>  is
>  my opinion only based on the queries I have received.
>  
>  --
>  Jukka 
Pardon me for joining this conversation late... and I've not been very active nor
involved in media distribution... BUT I do make my own Fedora Remix and it contains
basically all of the desktop environments that are included in the stock Fedora repos...
along with quite a few apps and third-party media related packages.  Anyhoo... I just
wanted to mention that my remix easily fits on a single DVD.  In fact, it'll fit on a
2GB USB thumbdrive as livemedia.

So to answer your question, not only can it fit all of the desktop environments and a
healthy set of apps on a single DVD, it ends up being about half the size of the current
install DVD.

However my remix does not contain much in the way development tools... but that isn't
important for most users to start with.  If they decide to do an install from the live
media, they can always install the development tools after the fact.  I've been
meaning to expand the package set to include devel tools and have a 4GB DVD but so far as
live images go, I think they are limited by the filesize max of the FAT filesystem
(2GB)... if you want to make live media out of them... but I'm not positive.

Did that answer your question?

TYL,
-- 
Scott Dowdle
704 Church Street
Belgrade, MT 59714
[phone] [home]
[phone] [work]

[Sascha Thomas Spreitzer]

>  Greetings, 
Hi Scott,

>  Pardon me for joining this conversation late... and I've not been
> very active nor involved in media distribution... BUT I do make my own Fedora Remix and it
> contains basically all of the desktop environments that are included in the stock Fedora
> repos... along with quite a few apps and third-party media related packages.  Anyhoo... I
> just wanted to mention that my remix easily fits on a single DVD.  In fact, it'll fit
> on a 2GB USB thumbdrive as livemedia. 
What is the name of the Remix, where can we find it?

>  So to answer your question, not only can it fit all of the desktop
> environments and a healthy set of apps on a single DVD, it ends up being about half the
> size of the current install DVD.
>
>  However my remix does not contain much in the way development tools... but that isn't
> important for most users to start with.  If they decide to do an install from the live
> media, they can always install the development tools after the fact.  I've been
> meaning to expand the package set to include devel tools and have a 4GB DVD but so far as
> live images go, I think they are limited by the filesize max of the FAT filesystem
> (2GB)... if you want to make live media out of them... but I'm not positive.
>
>  Did that answer your question? 
Cool work man! :D

Just some questions:

- Does your remix have a 32bit/64bit selection choice int the boot loader?
- Once booting or before, can you choose which live Desktop you want to use?
- Once the desktop is loaded, can you do a full offline installation (
...  with anaconda )?

cheers,
Sascha

[Scott Dowdle]

Sascha,

----- Original Message -----
>  What is the name of the Remix, where can we find it? 
It isn't something I promote because it is basically stock Fedora packages with some
RPM Fusion packages and only a tiny bit of customization... not even done properly
(copying over files rather than using custom branding rpm packages).

It is called MontanaLinux and you can find it here:
http://img.cs.montana.edu/linux/montanalinux/

That system is rate limited to the outside world so it is a very slow download but in that
directory structure you can find my config directory that should answer any questions
anyone has... which will reveal it isn't anything special.  Fedora just makes it easy
to do a respin or a remix so anyone can do it, including me. :)

TYL,
-- 
Scott Dowdle
704 Church Street
Belgrade, MT 59714
[phone] [home]
[phone] [work]

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Mittwoch, den 13.10.2010, 14:54 +0200 schrieb Jukka Palander:
>  On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 12:17 +0200, Sascha Thomas Spreitzer wrote:
>  > Dear freedorians,
>  > 
>  > we were researching the technical possibility of putting more then one
>  > live cd on one disc.
>  
>  clip, clip...
>  
>  OK. I understand that we are still keeping old live CDs and Installation
>  DVDs in place. Anyhow my thoughts are that:
>  
>  1) dual layer discs are expensive 
Not for us in production. One dual layer DVD can replace different CDs,
thus we save money.

>  2) dual layer discs are much more unreliable 
I hear that for the first time.

>  3) dual layer discs does not work on every DVD-reader (especially
> old
>  computers) 
If someone really has a DVD drive that cannot do dual layer, it is
likely that his machine will not run Fedora anyway. We already have high
hardware requirements. I'm not saying they are good, I just say that I
doubt we are excluding more people from using Fedora.

>  4) dual layer discs are slower to read 
According to the media company, but nobody has seen numbers.

>  1) Do we (Fedora) get "bad-will" from it when people feel
> that;
>   -it is so big to download
>   -it is not working on my computer after (a long) download
>   -disk is damaged too easily etc. 
Who says they are more susceptible? 

>   -it is so huge package (others are much smaller) 
We are not talking about media for download here, we are talking about
physical media. If the files are available for download too, they are
just an additional offer but not a replacement for other images.

>  2) How does this affect to Freemedia project? 
Not at all. We are not talking about free media here, these media are
for marketing purposes only. They are distributed by ambassadors on
events, but not through the free media program.

>  I do not know. My quick opinion is that maybe we should make what
> the
>  demand is  
What is the demand? It's hard to predict that before an event. One
problem we are facing ATM is that we have media left all over Europe,
but one only has Gnome while somebody else has KDE. 

Same goes for i386 vs. x86_64. The audience on events differs a lot,
e.g. in Fosdem people asked for 64bit live media all the time (which we
did not produce), on CLT everybody wanted 32bit.

>  and at least for me it is to be able to hand out an
>  installation DVD which is working for both i686 and 64bit (because
>  people do not know which one they are using) but only have Gnome.
>  
>  Does this kind of compilation fit into the one normal single layer DVD? 
If we only do one desktop, say GNOME, it's definitely possible to get
everything on one single layer DVD. If not, we will have to leave out
some packages that are now on the install DVD. So in the end we might
end up with something that is like the GNOME spin and has no advantage
over the current images.

>  Requests for other desktops (KDE and XCFE) are quite small, but this
> is
>  my opinion only based on the queries I have received. 
Indeed, but this is a corner case where we could save a lot of money
with the multi desktop live DVD because the small batches (Xfce, LXDE,
Moblin) are expensive to produce.

Regards,
Christoph

[Jukka Palander, IT Development Spain]

Hi, My comments in between.

On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 16:32 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>  Am Mittwoch, den 13.10.2010, 14:54 +0200 schrieb Jukka Palander:
>  > On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 12:17 +0200, Sascha Thomas Spreitzer wrote:
>  > > Dear freedorians,
>  > > 
>  > > we were researching the technical possibility of putting more then one
>  > > live cd on one disc.
>  > 
>  > clip, clip...
>  > 
>  > OK. I understand that we are still keeping old live CDs and Installation
>  > DVDs in place. Anyhow my thoughts are that:
>  > 
>  > 1) dual layer discs are expensive
>  
>  Not for us in production. One dual layer DVD can replace different CDs,
>  thus we save money. 
Not for the production, but people tend to copy Fedora for their friends
(I do hope) so it is not good for them and therefore it is not good for
spreading Fedora out! We are reducing our "market" if we make a
distribution which is hard to copy "on the spot". ->Most of the people
do not have dual layer discs at home!

>  > 2) dual layer discs are much more unreliable
>  
>  I hear that for the first time. 
They are some about twice as much unreliable than normal single layered
discs due the double capacity! Easy! Also they get affected much easily
by the "bad" reader. (ie. disc drive when burning was horizontally
installed and reproducing drive is in vertical position).

>  > 3) dual layer discs does not work on every DVD-reader
> (especially old
>  > computers)
>  
>  If someone really has a DVD drive that cannot do dual layer, it is
>  likely that his machine will not run Fedora anyway. We already have high
>  hardware requirements. I'm not saying they are good, I just say that I
>  doubt we are excluding more people from using Fedora. 
High hardware requirements?

Why on earth we say in the F13 installation disc back-cover the
following:

"Minimum Requirements:
400MHz Pentium II or better with 384 MB RAM"

This does not sound "high spec" to me!

>  > 4) dual layer discs are slower to read
>  
>  According to the media company, but nobody has seen numbers. 
They "just must be" because the splitted laser ray and processing. How
much slower - I do not know.

>  > 1) Do we (Fedora) get "bad-will" from it when people
> feel that;
>  >  -it is so big to download
>  >  -it is not working on my computer after (a long) download
>  >  -disk is damaged too easily etc.
>  
>  Who says they are more susceptible?  
I do say so because I work with the people and I hear comments from
them.

>  >  -it is so huge package (others are much smaller)
>  
>  We are not talking about media for download here, we are talking about
>  physical media. If the files are available for download too, they are
>  just an additional offer but not a replacement for other images. 
Yap. I did point this out in the beginning of the first mail. Anyhow
"people out there" may not understand this and they may start demanding
the complete package (without knowing if it is working on their computer
or not).

>  > 2) How does this affect to Freemedia project?
>  
>  Not at all. We are not talking about free media here, these media are
>  for marketing purposes only. They are distributed by ambassadors on
>  events, but not through the free media program. 
How do we avoid "people out there" asking for this kind of disc?
If it exists they start to question "why I cannot have one"?

>  > I do not know. My quick opinion is that maybe we should make
> what the
>  > demand is 
>  
>  What is the demand? It's hard to predict that before an event. One
>  problem we are facing ATM is that we have media left all over Europe,
>  but one only has Gnome while somebody else has KDE. 
>  
>  Same goes for i386 vs. x86_64. The audience on events differs a lot,
>  e.g. in Fosdem people asked for 64bit live media all the time (which we
>  did not produce), on CLT everybody wanted 32bit. 
Demand is (for me) that what people asks me to hand out.

>  > and at least for me it is to be able to hand out an
>  > installation DVD which is working for both i686 and 64bit (because
>  > people do not know which one they are using) but only have Gnome.
>  > 
>  > Does this kind of compilation fit into the one normal single layer DVD?
>  
>  If we only do one desktop, say GNOME, it's definitely possible to get
>  everything on one single layer DVD. If not, we will have to leave out
>  some packages that are now on the install DVD. So in the end we might
>  end up with something that is like the GNOME spin and has no advantage
>  over the current images. 
Solution was proposed by Scott. Leave development tools out from the
desktop edition. And instead make office tools more complete.

>  > Requests for other desktops (KDE and XCFE) are quite small, but
> this is
>  > my opinion only based on the queries I have received.
>  
>  Indeed, but this is a corner case where we could save a lot of money
>  with the multi desktop live DVD because the small batches (Xfce, LXDE,
>  Moblin) are expensive to produce. 
You are right. Saving money is good thing but it must not be done if we
see people (in general) seeing that "we are worsening things".

I am only saying we shouldn't do this, I am only saying that "think
first - do after". -just what we are doing now! :-)

>  Regards,
>  Christoph 
Ugh! I have spoken.

--
Jukka

[Brandon Lozza]

On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Jukka Palander <jukka(a)devspain.com&gt; wrote:
> > > 2) dual layer discs are much more unreliable
> >
> > I hear that for the first time.
>
>  They are some about twice as much unreliable than normal single layered
>  discs due the double capacity! Easy! Also they get affected much easily
>  by the "bad" reader. (ie. disc drive when burning was horizontally
>  installed and reproducing drive is in vertical position). 


> > > 3) dual layer discs does not work on every DVD-reader (especially old
> > > computers)
> >
> > If someone really has a DVD drive that cannot do dual layer, it is
> > likely that his machine will not run Fedora anyway. We already have high
> > hardware requirements. I'm not saying they are good, I just say that I
> > doubt we are excluding more people from using Fedora. 

These conditions apply only to dual layer burnable disks. Printed dual
layer disks do not have the unreliability problems. Burned dvds have a
shelf life, printed ones don't. There are a lot of differences. It
would make sense to have that version on printed media but not on
burned media. Burned dual layer media is unreliable, I'll agree.

Any computer with a DVD rom drive will read a dual layer disk. A lot
of movies which came out were dual layer and didn't require everyone
to upgrade all their dvd players. Burning the media is a different
story. Printed dual layer media will work on all dvd drives. Our ISO
files also typically work when imaged to USB drives too and these are
getting cheaper.

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Mittwoch, den 13.10.2010, 17:17 +0200 schrieb Jukka Palander:
>  Hi, My comments in between.
>  
>  On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 16:32 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>  > Am Mittwoch, den 13.10.2010, 14:54 +0200 schrieb Jukka Palander:
>  > > On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 12:17 +0200, Sascha Thomas Spreitzer wrote:
>  > > > Dear freedorians,
>  > > > 
>  > > > we were researching the technical possibility of putting more then one
>  > > > live cd on one disc.
>  > > 
>  > > clip, clip...
>  > > 
>  > > OK. I understand that we are still keeping old live CDs and Installation
>  > > DVDs in place. Anyhow my thoughts are that:
>  > > 
>  > > 1) dual layer discs are expensive
>  > 
>  > Not for us in production. One dual layer DVD can replace different CDs,
>  > thus we save money.
>  
>  Not for the production, but people tend to copy Fedora for their friends
>  (I do hope) so it is not good for them and therefore it is not good for
>  spreading Fedora out! We are reducing our "market" if we make a
>  distribution which is hard to copy "on the spot". ->Most of the people
>  do not have dual layer discs at home! 
Again, this is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about
media for events. If people want to download and burn something for
their friends, they are free to decide what to download and to burn.
They wont just download a big image 'by accident' if they don't want it.

>  > > 2) dual layer discs are much more unreliable
>  > 
>  > I hear that for the first time.
>  
>  They are some about twice as much unreliable than normal single layered
>  discs due the double capacity! Easy! Also they get affected much easily
>  by the "bad" reader. (ie. disc drive when burning was horizontally
>  installed and reproducing drive is in vertical position). 
You have any prove for your claim?

>  > > 3) dual layer discs does not work on every DVD-reader
> (especially old
>  > > computers)
>  > 
>  > If someone really has a DVD drive that cannot do dual layer, it is
>  > likely that his machine will not run Fedora anyway. We already have high
>  > hardware requirements. I'm not saying they are good, I just say that I
>  > doubt we are excluding more people from using Fedora.
>  
>  High hardware requirements?
>  
>  Why on earth we say in the F13 installation disc back-cover the
>  following:
>  
>  "Minimum Requirements:
>  400MHz Pentium II or better with 384 MB RAM"
>  
>  This does not sound "high spec" to me! 
Indeed, but this is not the reality and only applies for the install
DVD. The live media require much more RAM as you need to load the image
into the memory.

Most our users use way better devices. According to smolt, only 0,9% of
our users have systems with less than 512 Mhz CPU. This means that at an
event there is maybe 1 out of 100 people who cannot use the media we
offer. You really think this is worth all the drawbacks?

>  > > 4) dual layer discs are slower to read
>  > 
>  > According to the media company, but nobody has seen numbers.
>  
>  They "just must be" because the splitted laser ray and processing. How
>  much slower - I do not know. 
We are talking about big ISO images here, so seeking should not be
crucial. 

>  > > 1) Do we (Fedora) get "bad-will" from it when
> people feel that;
>  > >  -it is so big to download
>  > >  -it is not working on my computer after (a long) download
>  > >  -disk is damaged too easily etc.
>  > 
>  > Who says they are more susceptible? 
>  
>  I do say so because I work with the people and I hear comments from
>  them. 
As others already pointed out this may apply to self burned discs but
not to pressed media.

>  > >  -it is so huge package (others are much smaller)
>  > 
>  > We are not talking about media for download here, we are talking about
>  > physical media. If the files are available for download too, they are
>  > just an additional offer but not a replacement for other images.
>  
>  Yap. I did point this out in the beginning of the first mail. Anyhow
>  "people out there" may not understand this and they may start demanding
>  the complete package (without knowing if it is working on their computer
>  or not). 
If people do not know what will work they are in trouble anyway. How
would they know if they are to download 32 or 64 bits?

>  > > 2) How does this affect to Freemedia project?
>  > 
>  > Not at all. We are not talking about free media here, these media are
>  > for marketing purposes only. They are distributed by ambassadors on
>  > events, but not through the free media program.
>  
>  How do we avoid "people out there" asking for this kind of disc?
>  If it exists they start to question "why I cannot have one"? 
By simply not offering them. Remember, free media is a volunteer afford
and nobody can expect a volunteer to do as he likes. Some of our free
media contributors do dual layer discs, so where is the problem?

>  > > I do not know. My quick opinion is that maybe we should
> make what the
>  > > demand is 
>  > 
>  > What is the demand? It's hard to predict that before an event. One
>  > problem we are facing ATM is that we have media left all over Europe,
>  > but one only has Gnome while somebody else has KDE. 
>  > 
>  > Same goes for i386 vs. x86_64. The audience on events differs a lot,
>  > e.g. in Fosdem people asked for 64bit live media all the time (which we
>  > did not produce), on CLT everybody wanted 32bit.
>  
>  Demand is (for me) that what people asks me to hand out. 
Right, and you cannot know that in advance. With a one size fits all
image it will be much easier for us on events.

>  > > and at least for me it is to be able to hand out an
>  > > installation DVD which is working for both i686 and 64bit (because
>  > > people do not know which one they are using) but only have Gnome.
>  > > 
>  > > Does this kind of compilation fit into the one normal single layer DVD?
>  > 
>  > If we only do one desktop, say GNOME, it's definitely possible to get
>  > everything on one single layer DVD. If not, we will have to leave out
>  > some packages that are now on the install DVD. So in the end we might
>  > end up with something that is like the GNOME spin and has no advantage
>  > over the current images.
>  
>  Solution was proposed by Scott. Leave development tools out from the
>  desktop edition. And instead make office tools more complete. 
Scott is talking about a single image not a collection. He only can save
so much space because is is just doing *one* version, but then you have
no choice. You have to install exactly this version and cannot chose
wether to do GNOME, KDE, Xfce, LXDE or Moblin. You will be forced to
install *everything*.

>  > > Requests for other desktops (KDE and XCFE) are quite small,
> but this is
>  > > my opinion only based on the queries I have received.
>  > 
>  > Indeed, but this is a corner case where we could save a lot of money
>  > with the multi desktop live DVD because the small batches (Xfce, LXDE,
>  > Moblin) are expensive to produce.
>  
>  You are right. Saving money is good thing but it must not be done if we
>  see people (in general) seeing that "we are worsening things".
>  
>  I am only saying we shouldn't do this, I am only saying that "think
>  first - do after". -just what we are doing now! :-) 
I think the advantages outweigh the potential drawback by far. Summing
it up:

For the live media:
      * We don't have care about 32 or 64 bit any longer
      * We don't have to care for desktops any longer
      * = It will make evens much easier.

For the install media:
      * Install media will not work ATM due to limitations of anaconda.
      * By keeping 32 and 64 bits on separate single layer DVD, we still
        provide something for non-dual layer capable devices.

The only drawback I see: We are not offering CDs any longer, only DVD
media. I don't consider this a blocker though.

Regards,
Christoph

[Jukka Palander, IT Development Spain]

On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 21:13 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>  > Not for the production, but people tend to copy Fedora for their
> friends
>  > (I do hope) so it is not good for them and therefore it is not good for
>  > spreading Fedora out! We are reducing our "market" if we make a
>  > distribution which is hard to copy "on the spot". ->Most of the people
>  > do not have dual layer discs at home!
>  
>  Again, this is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about
>  media for events. If people want to download and burn something for
>  their friends, they are free to decide what to download and to burn.
>  They wont just download a big image 'by accident' if they don't want it.
Again,

Someone gets the dual layer disc from the event and then wants to burn a
copy to his/her friend. ..and then maybe cannot do that because it is
dual layered.

In the matter of fact I think we should NOT say things that "something
is not what we are talking about here". We are talking about Fedora
distribution media and it affects _everywhere_! We cannot separate our
issues in different boxes in whatever we are planning. In every project
you just have to take into account how it may affect in some other
place. In this case this hugely changes the procedure when copying and
re-distributing media forward.

>  > They are some about twice as much unreliable than normal single
layered
>  > discs due the double capacity! Easy! Also they get affected much
easily
>  > by the "bad" reader. (ie. disc drive when burning was
> horizontally
>  > installed and reproducing drive is in vertical position). 
> You have any prove for your claim? 
I have had many cases where _normal_ cd's and dvd's are not working if
the reading drive is mounted vertically but media is burned with
horizontally installed dive. Therefore I think dual layered discs must
be even more risky.

>  If people do not know what will work they are in trouble anyway. How
>  would they know if they are to download 32 or 64 bits? 
They use 32bit version in 64bit computer. Sadly.

>  I think the advantages outweigh the potential drawback by far.
> Summing
>  it up:
>
>  For the live media:
>       * We don't have care about 32 or 64 bit any longer
>       * We don't have to care for desktops any longer
>       * = It will make evens much easier. 
That is true!

>  For the install media:
>       * Install media will not work ATM due to limitations of anaconda.
>       * By keeping 32 and 64 bits on separate single layer DVD, we 
still
>         provide something for non-dual layer capable devices. 
Again I agree.

>  The only drawback I see: We are not offering CDs any longer, only
> DVD
>  media. I don't consider this a blocker though. 
And sadly this is a huge disadvantage when trying to spread Fedora out
in developing countries! In example Africa where computers are "what
they are" and many of the computers only have a CD drive.

By saying that, I at least think we really need to change the hardware
requirements text from the back cover to something like this.

"Minimum Requirements:
 800MHz Pentium III or better with 512 MB RAM and a DVD drive"

Cheers,
--
Jukka

[Misha Shnurapet]

14.10.2010, 04:13, "Christoph Wickert"
<christoph.wickert(a)googlemail.com&gt;:
>  Most our users use way better devices. According to smolt, only 0,9%
> of
>  our users have systems with less than 512 Mhz CPU. This means that at an
>  event there is maybe 1 out of 100 people who cannot use the media we
>  offer. You really think this is worth all the drawbacks? 
Hello, Christoph.

Could you, please, make a closer tour into the statistics?

-- 
Best regards,
Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Shnurapet
shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, GPG: 00217306

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Donnerstag, den 14.10.2010, 15:57 +0900 schrieb Misha Shnurapet:

>  Could you, please, make a closer tour into the statistics? 
http://smolts.org/static/stats/stats.html

Regards,
Christoph

[David Ramsey]

Hello Everyone,



Greetings. :)


Christoph, thank you for posting the stats URL.  :)

>  > Could you, please, make a closer tour into the statistics?
>  http://smolts.org/static/stats/stats.html
======================================================
Two things which I see in this stats URL just for our mind are the following:

* Examine the number of Fedora release 7 to 11 systems which are listed under the "OS
tab"

and

* Examine the number of systems with "less than 2GB" and "Between 2GB and
80GB" listed under the "Filesystems Tab"  I wonder about that.
======================================================
OMG, I did not know about some of these OS and wow, Fedora 14!  Food for thought...  ;)

Please have a great day and/or evening! :~)



Thank You

Sincerely

=-=-=-=-=

- David -

=-=-=-=-=

David Ramsey

---------------------------------

一石二鳥
いっせきにちょう

One stone; two birds.

To kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

---------------------------------

=

Fedora Project's Japan & Maryland Ambassador dramsey(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Dramsey

* Two (2) dual core systems with 3.0 GB of RAM running the Fedora 12 
(Constantine) kernel - 2.6.32.12-115.fc12.i686.PAE

* Two (2) dual core systems with 3.0 GB of RAM running the Fedora 13 
(Goddard) kernel - 2.6.33.5-131.fc13.i686.PAE

* Two (2) dual core systems with 3.0 GB of RAM running the Fedora 13 
(Goddard) and Security Spin kernel - 2.6.33.5-112.fc13.i686.PAE
* Two (2)  dual core systems with 3.0 GB of RAM running the Fedora 14 (Laughlin)
kernel - 2.6.35.6-43.fc14.i686.PAE

* One (1) dual core system with 3.0 GB of RAM running the Red Hat 6 
(Beta) kernel - 2.6.32-19.el6.i686

With eight (8) x86_64 computing cores, 16 GB of RAM and four SATA 
Seagate 7200.12 500 GB harddisks.

=

[Brandon Lozza]

010/10/14 David Ramsey <diamond_ramsey(a)hotmail.com&gt;:
>  Hello Everyone,
>
>  Greetings. :)
>
>  Christoph, thank you for posting the stats URL.  :)
>
> > > Could you, please, make a closer tour into the statistics?
> > http://smolts.org/static/stats/stats.html
>  ======================================================
>  Two things which I see in this stats URL just for our mind are the
>  following:
>
>  * Examine the number of Fedora release 7 to 11 systems which are listed
>  under the "OS tab"
>
>  and
>
>  * Examine the number of systems with "less than 2GB" and "Between 2GB and
>  80GB" listed under the "Filesystems Tab"  I wonder about that.
>  ======================================================
>  OMG, I did not know about some of these OS and wow, Fedora 14!  Food for
>  thought...  ;)
>
>  Please have a great day and/or evening! :~)
>
>  Thank You
>  Sincerely
>  =-=-=-=-=
>  - David -
>  =-=-=-=-=
>  David Ramsey
>  ---------------------------------
>  一石二鳥
>  いっせきにちょう
>  One stone; two birds.
>  To kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
>  ---------------------------------
>  =
>  Fedora Project's Japan & Maryland Ambassador dramsey(a)fedoraproject.org
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Dramsey
>  * Two (2) dual core systems with 3.0 GB of RAM running the Fedora 12
>  (Constantine) kernel - 2.6.32.12-115.fc12.i686.PAE
>  * Two (2) dual core systems with 3.0 GB of RAM running the Fedora 13
>  (Goddard) kernel - 2.6.33.5-131.fc13.i686.PAE
>  * Two (2) dual core systems with 3.0 GB of RAM running the Fedora 13
>  (Goddard) and Security Spin kernel - 2.6.33.5-112.fc13.i686.PAE
>  * Two (2) dual core systems with 3.0 GB of RAM running the Fedora 14
>  (Laughlin) kernel - 2.6.35.6-43.fc14.i686.PAE
>  * One (1) dual core system with 3.0 GB of RAM running the Red Hat 6 (Beta)
>  kernel - 2.6.32-19.el6.i686
>  With eight (8) x86_64 computing cores, 16 GB of RAM and four SATA Seagate
>  7200.12 500 GB harddisks.
>  =
>
>  --
>  ambassadors mailing list
>  ambassadors(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>  
Interesting that half the users who opt-in to smolt have dual core
cpus. That indicates at least 50% is 64-bit (no dual core 32 bit
cpus). 13.7% had quad cores.

Mind you, this smolt data also includes operating systems other than Fedora too.

[Sascha Thomas Spreitzer]

Hello Jukka,

>  OK. I understand that we are still keeping old live CDs and
> Installation
>  DVDs in place. Anyhow my thoughts are that:
>
>  1) dual layer discs are expensive 
The dual layer is with the mass production leverage we will have, be
arround one thousand Euro cheaper.

>  2) dual layer discs are much more unreliable 
Do we have evidence for that? We are speaking about pressed media, not
about self-burned once.
They will be as reliable as every movie DVD which you can buy in your
local movie store.

>  3) dual layer discs does not work on every DVD-reader (especially
> old
>  computers) 
Every DVD player that can read movie DVDs is able to boot and run a
Fedora dual layer disc then.
Because they're of the same type (DVD-9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD#Dual-layer_recording ).

>  4) dual layer discs are slower to read 
Do we have evidence for that? Until now it just has been a rumour and
we need evidences about the read speed.
Actually it can be that this rumour is just a rumour and the read
speed is the same as with normal DVDs.

>  This leads me into the question that:
>
>  1) Do we (Fedora) get "bad-will" from it when people feel that;
>   -it is so big to download
>   -it is not working on my computer after (a long) download
>   -disk is damaged too easily etc.
>   -it is so huge package (others are much smaller) 
Again, this is speaking about pressed and professional physical media.
We can have an upcoming dual-layer release still in addition to the
todays CDs and DVDs.

>  2) How does this affect to Freemedia project?
>   -do we contributors have to buy those much more expensive discs to burn
>  and send freemedia? 
- NO! This is absolutely unrelated to the Freemedia group/sub-project
-- It is the official media we give away for free on events.

>   -how are we sure people really understand that it is probably not
>  working in all computers (especially in developing areas where freemedia
>  requests are in place the most) 
Again not freemedia related....

>   -does this make it more difficult to spread out Fedora media by
>  volunteers who are not inside the Fedora-project? ->people who are
>  friends of someone and who wants a media and then they find is so big
>  (and media expensive) that they leave it in there... ???? 
- We have so many ways and options to install Fedora.
---> live, netinstall, CD, DVD

[..]

My opinion is, we enable people for contributing.
We aim to be a fast paced and being first project. Our targeting
userbase are people who mostly know the differences between 32bit and
64bit operating systems.
If not, we advise them to use the 32bit option. I don't feel this a
problem at all.

-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / with kind regards,
Sascha Thomas Spreitzer

http://spreitzer.name/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Sspreitzer

Warum mache ich überhaupt dieses ganze OpenSource Zeugs?
Lesen Sie hier, warum;
http://de.windows7sins.org/

[Paul W. Frields]

On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:17:49PM +0200, Sascha Thomas Spreitzer wrote:
>  Dear freedorians,
>  
>  we were researching the technical possibility of putting more then one
>  live cd on one disc.
>  The proof of concept succeded with these F13 compilations:
>  http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/torrents/
>  
>  Zoltan Hoppar and the media company in Munich came up with the idea to
>  use dual layered DVD discs, which will allow us to store arround 8.5
>  GB of data.
>  This is where we are a looking now at the following proposed future
>  Fedora compilations:
>  
>  - All desktop spins and related archs on one disc. ( Gnome, KDE, LXDE,
>  XFCE, Moblin - i686, x86_64 - arround 7GB ) PoC succeded. Tested and
>  working.
>  - All installer data and related arch on one disc. ( Full Fedora -
>  i686, x86_64 - arround 6.5GB ) PoC needed! Blocked due to anaconda
>  installer options and data paths/devices ( stage2 / repo ).
>  
>  I requested a pricing quote from the media company in Munich for the
>  upper scenario,
>  the result is ~1,000.00 EUR cost savings while producing the same
>  amount of media ( 5,000 pcs ).
>  http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/mediaquotes/F14/quote_121010_DE.pdf
>  
>  (We could even produce 10,000 pcs while staying in the budget for EMEA.)
>  
>  My questions are:
>  - Can we solve the blocker on anaconda for the installer compilation?
>  - Should we start this approach by F14?
>  
>  - By looking at F15, could we strip a "choose
>  live-desktop/arch/install" all-in-one dual layer disc?
>  
>  
>  Thoughts on hardware compatability:
>  By comment of the media company in Munich: Dual layer DVDs are not
>  compatible to all dvd players. But to most of them.
>  ( Every DVD player who can play a movie DVD is likely compatible. )
>  In my humble opinion this is not a blocker for Fedora, which is about
>  being first and rapid releasing near to cutting edge. 
As we pursue and conquer the technical problems, we should also make
sure to raise the trademark issue with the Board and ensure that
they're supportive.  I may have missed that discussion, and if so I
apologize profusely and would love it if someone would send me a link,
so I can cure my ignorance! :-)

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
          Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Mittwoch, den 13.10.2010, 15:30 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields:
>  On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:17:49PM +0200, Sascha Thomas Spreitzer
> wrote:
>  > Dear freedorians,
>  > 
>  > we were researching the technical possibility of putting more then one
>  > live cd on one disc.
>  > The proof of concept succeded with these F13 compilations:
>  > http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/torrents/
>  > 
>  > Zoltan Hoppar and the media company in Munich came up with the idea to
>  > use dual layered DVD discs, which will allow us to store arround 8.5
>  > GB of data.
>  > This is where we are a looking now at the following proposed future
>  > Fedora compilations:
>  > 
>  > - All desktop spins and related archs on one disc. ( Gnome, KDE, LXDE,
>  > XFCE, Moblin - i686, x86_64 - arround 7GB ) PoC succeded. Tested and
>  > working.
>  > - All installer data and related arch on one disc. ( Full Fedora -
>  > i686, x86_64 - arround 6.5GB ) PoC needed! Blocked due to anaconda
>  > installer options and data paths/devices ( stage2 / repo ).
>  > 
>  > I requested a pricing quote from the media company in Munich for the
>  > upper scenario,
>  > the result is ~1,000.00 EUR cost savings while producing the same
>  > amount of media ( 5,000 pcs ).
>  > http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/mediaquotes/F14/quote_121010_DE.pdf
>  > 
>  > (We could even produce 10,000 pcs while staying in the budget for EMEA.)
>  > 
>  > My questions are:
>  > - Can we solve the blocker on anaconda for the installer compilation?
>  > - Should we start this approach by F14?
>  > 
>  > - By looking at F15, could we strip a "choose
>  > live-desktop/arch/install" all-in-one dual layer disc?
>  > 
>  > 
>  > Thoughts on hardware compatability:
>  > By comment of the media company in Munich: Dual layer DVDs are not
>  > compatible to all dvd players. But to most of them.
>  > ( Every DVD player who can play a movie DVD is likely compatible. )
>  > In my humble opinion this is not a blocker for Fedora, which is about
>  > being first and rapid releasing near to cutting edge.
>  
>  As we pursue and conquer the technical problems,  
What technical problems? For the install media we cannot fix them in F14
and for the live media there are none, the proof of concept works and
has been tested by many people already.

>  we should also make
>  sure to raise the trademark issue with the Board and ensure that
>  they're supportive.   
Why would that be needed if all spins on the media already have been
granted the trademark?

>  I may have missed that discussion, and if so I
>  apologize profusely and would love it if someone would send me a link,
>  so I can cure my ignorance! :-) 
You haven't missed much, only 
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/ambassadors/2010-October/015642....
That discussion does not deal with the trademark though.

Regards,
Christoph

[Paul W. Frields]

On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 09:40:39PM +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>  Am Mittwoch, den 13.10.2010, 15:30 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields:
>  > On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:17:49PM +0200, Sascha Thomas Spreitzer wrote:
>  > > Dear freedorians,
>  > > 
>  > > we were researching the technical possibility of putting more then one
>  > > live cd on one disc.
>  > > The proof of concept succeded with these F13 compilations:
>  > > http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/torrents/
>  > > 
>  > > Zoltan Hoppar and the media company in Munich came up with the idea to
>  > > use dual layered DVD discs, which will allow us to store arround 8.5
>  > > GB of data.
>  > > This is where we are a looking now at the following proposed future
>  > > Fedora compilations:
>  > > 
>  > > - All desktop spins and related archs on one disc. ( Gnome, KDE, LXDE,
>  > > XFCE, Moblin - i686, x86_64 - arround 7GB ) PoC succeded. Tested and
>  > > working.
>  > > - All installer data and related arch on one disc. ( Full Fedora -
>  > > i686, x86_64 - arround 6.5GB ) PoC needed! Blocked due to anaconda
>  > > installer options and data paths/devices ( stage2 / repo ).
>  > > 
>  > > I requested a pricing quote from the media company in Munich for the
>  > > upper scenario,
>  > > the result is ~1,000.00 EUR cost savings while producing the same
>  > > amount of media ( 5,000 pcs ).
>  > > http://sspreitzer.fedorapeople.org/mediaquotes/F14/quote_121010_DE.pdf
>  > > 
>  > > (We could even produce 10,000 pcs while staying in the budget for EMEA.)
>  > > 
>  > > My questions are:
>  > > - Can we solve the blocker on anaconda for the installer compilation?
>  > > - Should we start this approach by F14?
>  > > 
>  > > - By looking at F15, could we strip a "choose
>  > > live-desktop/arch/install" all-in-one dual layer disc?
>  > > 
>  > > 
>  > > Thoughts on hardware compatability:
>  > > By comment of the media company in Munich: Dual layer DVDs are not
>  > > compatible to all dvd players. But to most of them.
>  > > ( Every DVD player who can play a movie DVD is likely compatible. )
>  > > In my humble opinion this is not a blocker for Fedora, which is about
>  > > being first and rapid releasing near to cutting edge.
>  > 
>  > As we pursue and conquer the technical problems, 
>  
>  What technical problems? For the install media we cannot fix them in F14
>  and for the live media there are none, the proof of concept works and
>  has been tested by many people already. 
You can read that as "zero or more issues of a technical nature," I
wasn't implying anything else. :-)

>  > we should also make
>  > sure to raise the trademark issue with the Board and ensure that
>  > they're supportive.  
>  
>  Why would that be needed if all spins on the media already have been
>  granted the trademark? 
I don't understand how the images are put together.  If they're ISO's
connected by some sort of thin glue, perhaps everyone agrees nothing
is needed.  I just think it would be wise to make sure everyone
agrees, since I hadn't seen that discussion.

>  > I may have missed that discussion, and if so I
>  > apologize profusely and would love it if someone would send me a link,
>  > so I can cure my ignorance! :-)
>  
>  You haven't missed much, only 
>  http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/ambassadors/2010-October/015642....
>  That discussion does not deal with the trademark though. 
Thanks!

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
          Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Donnerstag, den 14.10.2010, 11:28 -0400 schrieb Paul W. Frields: 
>  
>  I don't understand how the images are put together.  If they're ISO's
>  connected by some sort of thin glue, perhaps everyone agrees nothing
>  is needed.   
This is what you see when you mount the image:

$ ls Fedora-13-i686-Live-multi/*
Fedora-13-i686-Live-multi/boot.catalog

Fedora-13-i686-Live-multi/boot:
grub

Fedora-13-i686-Live-multi/Gnome:
EFI  GPL  isolinux  LiveOS

Fedora-13-i686-Live-multi/KDE:
EFI  GPL  isolinux  LiveOS

Fedora-13-i686-Live-multi/LXDE:
EFI  GPL  isolinux  LiveOS

Fedora-13-i686-Live-multi/XFCE:
EFI  GPL  isolinux  LiveOS

As you can see it's just the official spins, a boot menu and a copy of
the GPL for every spin.

>  I just think it would be wise to make sure everyone 
>  agrees, since I hadn't seen that discussion. 
Spot already pointed out that this would qualify as "new combination of
unmodified Fedora software" and thus need the boards approval. [1]

Can you please put this on the board agenda for the next meeting, as we
need to have the approval ASAP.

Regards,
Christoph

[1]
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-October/0093...

P.S.: It really is a pitty that the trac instance is closed for mortal
users like me, even for FESCo members. Is there a documented workflow to
bring something up the board's attention to it ends up on the meeting
agenda.