Hi all,
I have some problems with the definitions of the 4f's.
friends - this is a clear thing , we are all friends, the world is pink and there are no conflicts (until proven otherwise)
features - is a clear thing to, fedora is a distribution huge amount of features (perhaps not enough features ;-) we need more).
first - there is my first problem. This is like a racing duel with other distributions. We can not win on all sectors. This is more a destination, our goal.... We WANT to be the first, but we are not always the first.
freedom - This one is my biggest problem. What's the definition of freedom? The definition of freedom, which was definied by the FSF, formed the understanding of freedom in the whole world. And the FSF (Richard Stallman himself) said, that fedora is not free. So what's the current understanding of freedom in the fedoraproject? I haven't found arguments to discuss with someone about it.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Josephine Tannhäuser josephine.tannhauser@googlemail.com wrote:
I have some problems with the definitions of the 4f's.
[snipping the rest]
Did you have the problems after going through https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations ?
Hi Josephine,
On Friday 18 December 2009 09:25:48 Josephine Tannhäuser wrote:
Hi all, I have some problems with the definitions of the 4f's.
it is always good to think over and discuss our foundations from time to time - thanks for bringing this up - i started writing to answer your points - but after i checked back with what is different from what we have created in the wiki i decided that this clarifications are much better than mine.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations - maybe lets discuss on this basis
cu Joerg
Hi,
friends - this is a clear thing , we are all friends, the world is pink and there are no conflicts (until proven otherwise)
Not really. But at least we're striving for it in our community.
features - is a clear thing to, fedora is a distribution huge amount of features (perhaps not enough features ;-) we need more).
Again, we try to always introduce new features.
first - there is my first problem. This is like a racing duel with other distributions. We can not win on all sectors. This is more a destination, our goal.... We WANT to be the first, but we are not always the first.
t's like you say : we want to lead free software innovation (and we often manage to).
freedom - This one is my biggest problem. What's the definition of freedom? The definition of freedom, which was definied by the FSF, formed the understanding of freedom in the whole world. And the FSF (Richard Stallman himself) said, that fedora is not free. So what's the current understanding of freedom in the fedoraproject? I haven't found arguments to discuss with someone about it.
IIRC, the problem with the FSF was about the Fedora trademark and logo that are not free.
Other than that, all software and content in Fedora has to be under a free license: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing#SoftwareLicenses
So to sum up, you could see the 4 foundations (not the 4 F, remember that in some languages, those foundations are words that don't start with an F :) as goals towards which we are striving. Sure we don't always manage to achieve them, but we're trying very hard, and we're setting an example.
And if some other project manages to be the *first* to develop some new *feature* in a *community-friendly* way and with *FOSS only*, it's good, because it means that others are doing the Right Thing (c). ;)
Best regards,
----------
Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)
2009/12/18, sankarshan foss.mailinglists@gmail.com:
Did you have the problems after going through https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations ?
I read this before!
2009/12/18, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) bochecha@fedoraproject.org:
IIRC, the problem with the FSF was about the Fedora trademark and logo that are not free.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeSoftwareAnalysis/FSF no we ship firmware binaries in the kernel package!
On 12/18/2009 11:21 AM, Josephine Tannhäuser wrote:
2009/12/18, sankarshan foss.mailinglists@gmail.com:
Did you have the problems after going through https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations ?
I read this before!
2009/12/18, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) bochecha@fedoraproject.org:
IIRC, the problem with the FSF was about the Fedora trademark and logo that are not free.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeSoftwareAnalysis/FSF no we ship firmware binaries in the kernel package!
indeed, but IMHO what said FSF is not the bible. ;-)
IMHO the firmware binaries are required to have a usable machine (and cover as much as possible the various configuration, hardware combinations).
In fedora all the software shipped by the official repositories is free software.
Bye Luca
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Josephine Tannhäuser josephine.tannhauser@googlemail.com wrote:
2009/12/18, sankarshan foss.mailinglists@gmail.com:
Did you have the problems after going through https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations ?
I read this before!
The reason I asked was to allow us to have a discussion as to whether you have concerns about how the Foundations are explained on the page or, whether it is more about how you interpret them.
2009/12/18, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) bochecha@fedoraproject.org:
IIRC, the problem with the FSF was about the Fedora trademark and logo that are not free.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeSoftwareAnalysis/FSF no we ship firmware binaries in the kernel package!
I thought this had changed with Fedora 10, when we split those binary firmwares to the kernel-firmware package. Of course, it is installed by default, but at least now you can remove it. And that's a first step towards eliminating them all together.
Anyway, that doesn't change my main point: we don't necessarily succeed in fulfilling those 4 foundations. They are nevertheless our foundations, what we believe in, and what we try to achieve.
Best regards,
----------
Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:27:56AM +0100, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:
2009/12/18, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) bochecha@fedoraproject.org:
IIRC, the problem with the FSF was about the Fedora trademark and logo that are not free.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeSoftwareAnalysis/FSF no we ship firmware binaries in the kernel package!
I thought this had changed with Fedora 10, when we split those binary firmwares to the kernel-firmware package. Of course, it is installed by default, but at least now you can remove it. And that's a first step towards eliminating them all together.
Anyway, that doesn't change my main point: we don't necessarily succeed in fulfilling those 4 foundations. They are nevertheless our foundations, what we believe in, and what we try to achieve.
I think Mathieu and some other people are pointing at the same general concept correctly. The Foundations are intended to be *core values*, meaning they represent the things that are important to us as a Project. We share these values, and we strive to make them part of everything we do. And where we find we could improve, we try to do so. The core values, in some cases, are similar to other projects; in others, they differentiate us. Both are a good thing and help to keep Fedora not only relevant but special.
Having these core values written down is very important for us as a project, because they represent the things we need to agree on as a community to make progress. For example, if someone doesn't believe the concept of friends -- sharing values and working constructively together -- is important, it's likely that person won't be able to enjoy time spent in the Fedora Project. So these core values also provide a way for people to judge whether the Fedora Project is the place for them to spend their time as a volunteer.
Hi guys, happy new year! I am sorry to mention that even though we may not intend for any misunderstanding we must be be to see that people will get this message differently and I am for the notion that this is revised as this can be something so small in our eyes in that we know what it means but someone else may look at this differently and give s the wrong image as an organization if that is the term i could use.
Please let this be revised as something as small as this can mess us up.
thanks.
regards, frankie
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:27:56AM +0100, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:
2009/12/18, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) bochecha@fedoraproject.org:
IIRC, the problem with the FSF was about the Fedora trademark and logo that are not free.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeSoftwareAnalysis/FSF no we ship firmware binaries in the kernel package!
I thought this had changed with Fedora 10, when we split those binary firmwares to the kernel-firmware package. Of course, it is installed by default, but at least now you can remove it. And that's a first step towards eliminating them all together.
Anyway, that doesn't change my main point: we don't necessarily succeed in fulfilling those 4 foundations. They are nevertheless our foundations, what we believe in, and what we try to achieve.
I think Mathieu and some other people are pointing at the same general concept correctly. The Foundations are intended to be *core values*, meaning they represent the things that are important to us as a Project. We share these values, and we strive to make them part of everything we do. And where we find we could improve, we try to do so. The core values, in some cases, are similar to other projects; in others, they differentiate us. Both are a good thing and help to keep Fedora not only relevant but special.
Having these core values written down is very important for us as a project, because they represent the things we need to agree on as a community to make progress. For example, if someone doesn't believe the concept of friends -- sharing values and working constructively together -- is important, it's likely that person won't be able to enjoy time spent in the Fedora Project. So these core values also provide a way for people to judge whether the Fedora Project is the place for them to spend their time as a volunteer.
-- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
I think it's mostly about what Paul Frields said at FUDCon Toronto 2009 in his "State of Fedora" speech: Be bold.
I think these statements are meant to be bold about Fedora and also challenge other distributions.
Felix
Hello, this is my point of view of 4-foundations:
2009/12/18 Josephine Tannhäuser josephine.tannhauser@googlemail.com
Hi all,
I have some problems with the definitions of the 4f's.
friends - this is a clear thing , we are all friends, the world is pink and there are no conflicts (until proven otherwise)
We not only share a common environment, we also share experiences, meals, chats and sometimes some users are family or make their best friends around community (this is my particular case)
features - is a clear thing to, fedora is a distribution huge amount of features (perhaps not enough features ;-) we need more).
We are always improving, if you see other distros packages, you will see that many times they have old versions while we have *almost always* the most new software.
first - there is my first problem. This is like a racing duel with other distributions. We can not win on all sectors. This is more a destination, our goal.... We WANT to be the first, but we are not always the first.
I think this is not only about the environment. If you check our developers list, artwork, translations, package and go on; you'll find also people who leads Free/libre Software around the world. Be first is not only be at top of some ranking, is also be first as a profetional, community and team.
freedom - This one is my biggest problem. What's the definition of freedom? The definition of freedom, which was definied by the FSF, formed the understanding of freedom in the whole world. And the FSF (Richard Stallman himself) said, that fedora is not free. So what's the current understanding of freedom in the fedoraproject? I haven't found arguments to discuss with someone about it.
Freedom is related to something like this "we have both packages (free/libres and some non-free/libres)" *you are free to choose because is your computer*.
FSF philosophy is not about "let the user choose", is more like "we choose what you can and can not use". Fedora let the choice to the user... that's what *freedom* really means.
Merry Christmas :)
-- Josephine "Fine" Tannhäuser 2.6.31.5-127.fc12.i686.PAE
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
I think some equal Maria Leandro, fedora is really free, it's thinking in user, sorry for mybad english, I dont speak this language.
Kellerman Rivero Fedora Ambassador Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 18/12/2009, a las 08:14 a.m., María Leandro tatica@fedoraproject.org escribió:
Hello, this is my point of view of 4-foundations:
2009/12/18 Josephine Tannhäuser josephine.tannhauser@googlemail.com Hi all,
I have some problems with the definitions of the 4f's.
friends - this is a clear thing , we are all friends, the world is pink and there are no conflicts (until proven otherwise)
We not only share a common environment, we also share experiences, meals, chats and sometimes some users are family or make their best friends around community (this is my particular case)
features - is a clear thing to, fedora is a distribution huge amount of features (perhaps not enough features ;-) we need more).
We are always improving, if you see other distros packages, you will see that many times they have old versions while we have *almost always* the most new software.
first - there is my first problem. This is like a racing duel with other distributions. We can not win on all sectors. This is more a destination, our goal.... We WANT to be the first, but we are not always the first.
I think this is not only about the environment. If you check our developers list, artwork, translations, package and go on; you'll find also people who leads Free/libre Software around the world. Be first is not only be at top of some ranking, is also be first as a profetional, community and team.
freedom - This one is my biggest problem. What's the definition of freedom? The definition of freedom, which was definied by the FSF, formed the understanding of freedom in the whole world. And the FSF (Richard Stallman himself) said, that fedora is not free. So what's the current understanding of freedom in the fedoraproject? I haven't found arguments to discuss with someone about it.
Freedom is related to something like this "we have both packages (free/libres and some non-free/libres)" *you are free to choose because is your computer*.
FSF philosophy is not about "let the user choose", is more like "we choose what you can and can not use". Fedora let the choice to the user... that's what *freedom* really means.
Merry Christmas :)
-- Josephine "Fine" Tannhäuser 2.6.31.5-127.fc12.i686.PAE
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
-- tatica Maria Gracia Leandro http://www.tatica.org http://www.fedora-ve.org http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MariaLeandro LinuxUser= 440285 GPG Public Key: E1CDCC56 "Be yourself... Don't be anyone else" -- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
Hi Josephine,
I'm going to reply inline here, but i've read through the thread too and i'm going to add the bits i think are missing.
Keep in mind that these four foundations are not unique to us in any way. They are just the moral core we try to run Fedora as a project around. Like other's have said, it's good to reevaluate the Foundations from time to time to see if they are still relevant. It's also good to have to rexplain them to people who have questions because it helps us understand it better.
2009/12/18 Josephine Tannhäuser josephine.tannhauser@googlemail.com:
Hi all,
I have some problems with the definitions of the 4f's.
friends - this is a clear thing , we are all friends, the world is pink and there are no conflicts (until proven otherwise)
Try to take this from a slightly less literal approach. Conflicts always happen, but this is what happens between friends. Our goal is to see community happen. What i see as a clear thing is that we treat each other as friends and not just 'as coworkers' or something else less personal. It's a statement on how we view participants and contributors.
features - is a clear thing to, fedora is a distribution huge amount of features (perhaps not enough features ;-) we need more).
I'm not 100% sure on the intentions here, but this stemmed from our development process, where we focus around features. It's a convenient entry point for anyone looking to try out new ideas.
first - there is my first problem. This is like a racing duel with other distributions. We can not win on all sectors. This is more a destination, our goal.... We WANT to be the first, but we are not always the first.
We aren't racing anyone here. I like to explain this as "first among equals". It's a bit of a paradox, but it doesn't describe our destination, but how we get there. There are a number of things many other distros do first, but that doesn't mean they are 'more first' than we are. Our mission is to be the first out with the technologies that interest us, in a completely integrated fashion. For example, a number of distros picked up ext4 as the default file system long before Fedora did. How many of them integrated it with encryption including the necessary password prompts in plymouth and anaconda?
freedom - This one is my biggest problem. What's the definition of freedom? The definition of freedom, which was definied by the FSF, formed the understanding of freedom in the whole world. And the FSF (Richard Stallman himself) said, that fedora is not free. So what's the current understanding of freedom in the fedoraproject? I haven't found arguments to discuss with someone about it.
Everyone has a different argument of 'freedom'. RMS has mentioned before that he sees open source software that implements patent encumbered algorithms as 'free'. He was definitely one of the first people to define 'free' but there are so many definitions now. It's more important for us to use our own internal definition of 'free' and hope we get it right.
The goal is to provide a distribution and project that advances the cause of free software and free culture. The three biggest concerns i've seen are binary firmware blobs, binary drivers and media codecs. We ship with the blobs because without them, many machines won't work at all. We wouldn't have a way to deliver free software otherwise, because the entire operating system simply could not work effectively. This is with the eventual goal to be rid of them sometime in the future. Certain purists disagree here, but if this bother's you, i refer you back to point one, Friends.
Drivers are trickier. They are also necessary in some cases, but decreasingly so. Unlike the blobs, we don't have the rights to distribute certain well known key drivers. Some hardworking Fedora developers have been hard at work for the past few releases to provide the best free and open source drivers possible for these devices. This is an active example of the project leading towards a more free environment for people to use.
Media codecs are another contention point. Red Hat's legal team has discussed liability that Red Hat is not willing to take, before, but the problem is not just the liability to a certain North American software service provider. The problem is that certain codecs and algorithms are encumbered by more than just software alone. Shipping these codecs encourage people to use media formats that could limit other people in other ways. Unlike hardware, which can be costly to replace, software and data can always be transcribed and converted for much less effort, time and money. Pushing for better and free codecs, free culture and all the good things that come out of that is actually a low hanging fruit, something easy to work on and that we can see effective change in quickly.
The definition we use for free comes from how we pick the battles we can fight in order to reach our ultimate goal. It's a topic that comes up again and again, and can be pretty contentious. It's good to ask questions here, but for once, i'm going to caution you to be careful how you word things and which questions you ask on public mailing lists. This topic is really prone to nasty, long and arguably nearly worthless threads.
If you have more questions about this, there are a number of places you can look. If you have questions about the legal aspects, see the wiki https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal . When discussing issues of freedom on a mailing list and you feel the argument is contentious, perhaps you might want to email the target offlist. If you have questions whether a post is going to cause trouble, ask one of the Ambassador mentors first to look over your comments. If you have questions though, please share.
-Yaakov
ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org