[Discussion] Reporting template for ambassadors.

[susmit shannigrahi]

Hi,
As we were just discussing this, we are getting lots of new ambassadors.
For Fedora India, its couple of them almost every week.
But it is time to think if we getting as much output as well.

So how will it be to have a standard template for monthly




-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================

[Francesco Ugolini]

On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM, susmit shannigrahi
<thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi,
>  As we were just discussing this, we are getting lots of new ambassadors.
>  For Fedora India, its couple of them almost every week.
>  But it is time to think if we getting as much output as well.
>
>  So how will it be to have a standard template for monthly
>
>  --
>  Regards,
>  Susmit. 

Are you talking about Event Reporting or New Members Reporting?

Sorry, but I missed the point.

Waiting for an answer

Regards

Francesco Ugolini

[susmit shannigrahi]

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Francesco Ugolini
<francesco(a)ephisia.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM, susmit shannigrahi
>  <thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > Hi,
> > As we were just discussing this, we are getting lots of new ambassadors.
> > For Fedora India, its couple of them almost every week.
> > But it is time to think if we getting as much output as well.
> >
> > So how will it be to have a standard template for monthly
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Susmit.
>
>
>  Are you talking about Event Reporting or New Members Reporting? 
No,  am talking
about report from exsisting ambassadors on what they are doing.




>  Sorry, but I missed the point.
>
>  Waiting for an answer
>
>  Regards
>
>  Francesco Ugolini
>
>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>  


-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================

[sankarshan]

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Francesco Ugolini
<francesco(a)ephisia.org&gt; wrote:

>  Are you talking about Event Reporting or New Members Reporting?
I believe he is talking about a format/template which will be useful
for Ambassadors to use to record details about work done during a
given time period.

/me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...

-- 

http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published
http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science
http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work

[David Nalley]

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay
<foss.mailinglists(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Francesco Ugolini
>  <francesco(a)ephisia.org&gt; wrote:
>
> > Are you talking about Event Reporting or New Members Reporting?
>
>  I believe he is talking about a format/template which will be useful
>  for Ambassadors to use to record details about work done during a
>  given time period.
>
>  /me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
>
>  --
>  
We have:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/ReportingGuidelines

[Emilio Simpkins]

I kind of got the drift we would be "reporting" to a certain group of people
for evaluation, but your idea sounds better

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:40 PM, David Nalley <david(a)gnsa.us&gt; wrote:

>  On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay
>  <foss.mailinglists(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Francesco Ugolini
>  > <francesco(a)ephisia.org&gt; wrote:
>  >
>  >> Are you talking about Event Reporting or New Members Reporting?
>  >
>  > I believe he is talking about a format/template which will be useful
>  > for Ambassadors to use to record details about work done during a
>  > given time period.
>  >
>  > /me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
>  >
>  > --
>  >
>
>  We have:
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/ReportingGuidelines
>
>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>

[susmit shannigrahi]

>  /me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more... 
My point is, there are a lot of Fedora Ambassadors and a lot of them
are inactive or pseudo active.

There may not be a way to show them the door right away, but surely we
can ask for details on what they did for Fedora in recent past.

This is becoming a *requirement* as there was serious allegations
against some ambassadors, who, in spite of claiming to be active
Fedora Ambassador, didn't participate in the recent events at their
locality.

Skipping an event is ok if someone is busy. But more serious
allegation was, they didn't replied the mails asking for help in
organising the Fedora Events or neither did they forward the mails to
lists.

So, there must be a way to verify what people are contributing as Ambassadors.

How about having a standard questionnaire which ambassadors will fill
every month(or in a couple of months) giving details of what they have
been doing as an ambassador during the last couple of months.

This way we may have more data and better handling of things.

Thanks.
-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================

[susmit shannigrahi]

2009/2/16 Emilio Simpkins <unidentified221(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  I kind of got the drift we would be "reporting" to a
> certain group of people
>  for evaluation, but your idea sounds better 
No...if we have the reports, it will be open to all...public reports.
May be we can do it under our respective homepage,
or under some kind of publicly accessible  infrastructure.



-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================

[sankarshan]

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:23 AM, susmit shannigrahi
<thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > /me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
>
>  My point is, there are a lot of Fedora Ambassadors and a lot of them
>  are inactive or pseudo active. 
Doing this on a regular basis would provide everyone with an idea of
what has been happening around the world within a time snapshot.


-- 

http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published
http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science
http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work

[Emilio Simpkins]

what do you mean pseudo-active?
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:53 PM, susmit shannigrahi <
thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  > /me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
>
>  My point is, there are a lot of Fedora Ambassadors and a lot of them
>  are inactive or pseudo active.
>
>  There may not be a way to show them the door right away, but surely we
>  can ask for details on what they did for Fedora in recent past.
>
>  This is becoming a *requirement* as there was serious allegations
>  against some ambassadors, who, in spite of claiming to be active
>  Fedora Ambassador, didn't participate in the recent events at their
>  locality.
>
>  Skipping an event is ok if someone is busy. But more serious
>  allegation was, they didn't replied the mails asking for help in
>  organising the Fedora Events or neither did they forward the mails to
>  lists.
>
>  So, there must be a way to verify what people are contributing as
>  Ambassadors.
>
>  How about having a standard questionnaire which ambassadors will fill
>  every month(or in a couple of months) giving details of what they have
>  been doing as an ambassador during the last couple of months.
>
>  This way we may have more data and better handling of things.
>
>  Thanks.
>  --
>  Regards,
>  Susmit.
>
>  =============================================
>  ssh
>  0x86DD170A
>  http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
>  =============================================
>
>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>

[susmit shannigrahi]

2009/2/16 Emilio Simpkins <unidentified221(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  what do you mean pseudo-active? 
For example, who claims to be active in mailing lists and irc, but
does not reply to mails when a local LUG asks for help in organising a
Fedora Event.

This is sad, but it just happened.


-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================

[Neville A. Cross]

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay
<foss.mailinglists(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:23 AM, susmit shannigrahi
>  <thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> >> /me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
> >
> > My point is, there are a lot of Fedora Ambassadors and a lot of them
> > are inactive or pseudo active.
>
>  Doing this on a regular basis would provide everyone with an idea of
>  what has been happening around the world within a time snapshot.
>  
If there is a template to follow in each ambassador page that require
periodically to be updated... it will show right away if he or she is
active or not. For example if you have a time line on your activities,
it will show your last activities, and also may show for how long an
ambassador has been dormant. It is a bit of work, but it will help
keep track of things.



-- 
Neville
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Emilio Simpkins]

Oh....well i've only recently just joined Fedora as a Ambassador, so I
havent gotten any emails about a Fedora Event in my area.

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:07 PM, susmit shannigrahi <
thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  2009/2/16 Emilio Simpkins <unidentified221(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  > what do you mean pseudo-active?
>
>  For example, who claims to be active in mailing lists and irc, but
>  does not reply to mails when a local LUG asks for help in organising a
>  Fedora Event.
>
>  This is sad, but it just happened.
>
>
>  --
>  Regards,
>  Susmit.
>
>  =============================================
>  ssh
>  0x86DD170A
>  http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
>  =============================================
>
>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>

[Neville A. Cross]

On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 11:07 PM, susmit shannigrahi
<thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  2009/2/16 Emilio Simpkins <unidentified221(a)gmail.com&gt;:
> > what do you mean pseudo-active?
>
>  For example, who claims to be active in mailing lists and irc, but
>  does not reply to mails when a local LUG asks for help in organising a
>  Fedora Event.
>
>  This is sad, but it just happened.
>
>  
All this rings a bell regarding ambassador page template (or
templates) to help organize personal information in a more coherent
way. When you see one ambassador page and then see another, ther are
time that you can not relate the info. Let alone those pages that are
almost empty. I followed the template discussion, but I can't recall a
conclusion on that topic. There are also ambassador listed that
haven't created their page. They are highlighted in red, some of them
have more that two month old without taking care of this duty.

I have been tracking my activities on my page. I have created an
orderly account but without aesthetically considerations. I don't know
if that example may help Susmit ideas.

Best regards

-- 
Neville
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Ankur Sinha]

On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 10:37 +0530, susmit shannigrahi wrote:
>  2009/2/16 Emilio Simpkins <unidentified221(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  > what do you mean pseudo-active?
>  
>  For example, who claims to be active in mailing lists and irc, but
>  does not reply to mails when a local LUG asks for help in organising a
>  Fedora Event.
>  
>  This is sad, but it just happened.
>  
>   
hi,

How would the activity be "judged" ? Is it based on events conducted/
helped in or also what work you do at the project? I mean Packaging
etc? 

eg: Some packages hardly require any changes so the packager is going to
be dormant in that while. Will that come under pseudo activity?

I'm just saying that a set of guidelines needs to be put up if this is
to be implemented.

regards,

Ankur

[susmit shannigrahi]

>  hi,
>
>  How would the activity be "judged" ? Is it based on events conducted/
>  helped in or also what work you do at the project? I mean Packaging
>  etc? 
No, we are taking about the jobs ambassadors are supposed to do.

>  eg: Some packages hardly require any changes so the packager is going
> to
>  be dormant in that while. Will that come under pseudo activity? 
I guess an ambassador may be a packager, but that is not the job *as*
an ambassador.
If you are an ambassador, your role is clearly defined here
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors#Contributing_roles_in_the_Ambas...

Someone may be very good in packaging, coding or any other job, but
that does not make someone a good ambassador as well.

The above link will be a good example which are the areas ambassadors
should focus.
But an ambassador must not be limited to that only.

>  I'm just saying that a set of guidelines needs to be put up if
> this is
>  to be implemented.
>
>  regards,
>
>  Ankur
>
>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>  


-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================

[susmit shannigrahi]

>  All this rings a bell regarding ambassador page template (or
>  templates) to help organize personal information in a more coherent
>  way. When you see one ambassador page and then see another, ther are
>  time that you can not relate the info. Let alone those pages that are
>  almost empty. I followed the template discussion, but I can't recall a
>  conclusion on that topic. 
There was not!!!
I guess we need to automate the new home page creation, so that
whenever someone is approved, the page is automatically created.

> There are also ambassador listed that
>  haven't created their page.
>  They are highlighted in red, some of them
>  have more that two month old without taking care of this duty. 
I shall work on this homeless ambassador thing in our next meeting.
Thanks for raising this.

>  I have been tracking my activities on my page. I have created an
>  orderly account but without aesthetically considerations. I don't know
>  if that example may help Susmit ideas. 
This is exactly what I am trying to say.
Thanks for it.
I shall make it a point of reference. :)

>  Best regards
>
>  --
>  Neville
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
>  Linux User # 473217
>
>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>  Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>  


-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================

[Ankur Sinha]

On Mon, 2009-02-16 at 12:38 +0530, susmit shannigrahi wrote:
>  > hi,
>  >
>  > How would the activity be "judged" ? Is it based on events conducted/
>  > helped in or also what work you do at the project? I mean Packaging
>  > etc?
>  
>  No, we are taking about the jobs ambassadors are supposed to do.
>  
>  > eg: Some packages hardly require any changes so the packager is going to
>  > be dormant in that while. Will that come under pseudo activity?
>  
>  I guess an ambassador may be a packager, but that is not the job *as*
>  an ambassador.
>  If you are an ambassador, your role is clearly defined here
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors#Contributing_roles_in_the_Ambas...
>  
>  Someone may be very good in packaging, coding or any other job, but
>  that does not make someone a good ambassador as well.
>  
>  The above link will be a good example which are the areas ambassadors
>  should focus.
>  But an ambassador must not be limited to that only.
>  
>  > I'm just saying that a set of guidelines needs to be put up if this is
>  > to be implemented.
>  >
>  > regards,
>  >
>  > Ankur
>  >
>  > --
>  > Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  > Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>  > 
hi,

Okay.. I understand it now.. Thanks for the clarification.. 

regards,

Ankur

[Rangeen Basu]

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 10:23 AM, susmit shannigrahi <
thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  > /me would be waiting for Susmit to write in with more...
>
>  My point is, there are a lot of Fedora Ambassadors and a lot of them
>  are inactive or pseudo active.
>
>  There may not be a way to show them the door right away, but surely we
>  can ask for details on what they did for Fedora in recent past.
>
>  This is becoming a *requirement* as there was serious allegations
>  against some ambassadors, who, in spite of claiming to be active
>  Fedora Ambassador, didn't participate in the recent events at their
>  locality.
>
>  Skipping an event is ok if someone is busy. But more serious
>  allegation was, they didn't replied the mails asking for help in
>  organising the Fedora Events or neither did they forward the mails to
>  lists.
>
>  So, there must be a way to verify what people are contributing as
>  Ambassadors.
>
>  How about having a standard questionnaire which ambassadors will fill
>  every month(or in a couple of months) giving details of what they have
>  been doing as an ambassador during the last couple of months.
>
>  This way we may have more data and better handling of things.
>
>  Thanks.
>  --
>  Regards,
>  Susmit.
>
>  =============================================
>  ssh
>  0x86DD170A
>  http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
>  =============================================
>
>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>  
Thats a really nice idea. Will help a lot in getting things done and
spreading fedora.


-- 
Rangeen Basu Roy Chowdhury

sherry151(a)gmail.com

!!!Windows is "micro"-soft[ware]..I like bigger things!!!

[inode0]

On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 1:58 AM, susmit shannigrahi
<thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi,
>  As we were just discussing this, we are getting lots of new ambassadors.
>  For Fedora India, its couple of them almost every week.
>  But it is time to think if we getting as much output as well.
>
>  So how will it be to have a standard template for monthly 
Hi Susmit. I would like to see this discussion broadened to include
FAmSCo and ambassadors from areas like North America who I don't think
have participated in this discussion up to now.

> From the discussion I've seen here it seems the impetus for this
> is to 
fix a small number of situations where an ambassador perhaps did not
perform expected duties, especially troubling when it comes to
ignoring a request from the broader community. In North America I
think there is a weakness in that it is hard for the broader community
to even figure out who to contact within Fedora about whether Fedora
would like to participate in an event. These inquiries when they come
seem to almost always get redirected to the ambassadors group from
someone else who was contacted first. I think it might be good to have
these sorts of contacts be made to the larger group of ambassadors so
no one falls through the cracks.

I am hesitant to endorse monthly reporting of routine contributions.
While I see the motivation is good for asking for this I worry that
creating a burden for all those who do contribute to find out who
doesn't contribute isn't really fair to those who are contributing. If
we make being an ambassador too much like having a paid job (without
the pay) there may be unexpected negative outcomes. In order for this
reporting to be useful in determining who is and who isn't
contributing opens up a can of worms as well. It requires monitoring
the data, making judgments about it, taking actions which I presume
are punitive in nature against those deemed to be not contributing.

I will add that when FAmNA was reborn we tried to contact every
ambassador then listed for North America and the response rate was
very disappointing. Most did not respond at all to our inquiries and
encouragement that they join in the reorganization efforts. So we felt
the sting of what appears to be large numbers of people listed as
ambassadors who didn't even return an email. I can support the desire
to clean up things some so when a visitor comes to the wiki and finds
an ambassador they can at least expect a reply to an email. But I
would rather add the burden to those who seem to have left the program
rather than add it to those who are busy promoting Fedora now.

Can the FAmSCo membership folks suggest a good way to deal with this?

Thanks for bringing up one option we have Susmit. This is a festering
problem that is only going to get worse the longer we ignore it.

John

[Heherson Pagcaliwagan]

How about a karma-like points system? Event owners get a set number of
points when they accomplished all the reporting requirements and then
they get to distribute another set of points on those who helped out.
Although I'm afraid it will just be a popularity contest but hey my
two cents is still two cents :D

-- 
Heherson Pagcaliwagan
http://project.azneita.org

[Adam Miller]

I don't really like the idea of a points system for events. I'm
currently attending college at Sam Houston State University which is
where I do majority of my ambassador work, trying to get my fellow
computer science students involved, get faculty involved, even working
towards getting the computer science department to fund some open
source development and the work I do won't exactly rank very high on a
points system because I'm not able to make it to thinks like fosdem
and fudcon due to financial limitations.

I also agree with inode0 in a big way. I work full time, I'm a full
time college student, I'm a fedora package maintainer, I'm a fedora
ambassador, and outside that I try to have some interaction with the
real world. Adding mandatory monthly reporting to my list in order to
prove or disprove contributions that I have or have not done will
honestly be discouraging and a big burden for my already lacking free
time.

Just my thoughts.

-Adam

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Heherson Pagcaliwagan
<azneita(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  How about a karma-like points system? Event owners get a set number
> of
>  points when they accomplished all the reporting requirements and then
>  they get to distribute another set of points on those who helped out.
>  Although I'm afraid it will just be a popularity contest but hey my
>  two cents is still two cents :D
>
>  --
>  Heherson Pagcaliwagan
>  http://project.azneita.org
>
>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>  


-- 
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/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments

[David Nalley]

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Heherson Pagcaliwagan
<azneita(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  How about a karma-like points system? Event owners get a set number
> of
>  points when they accomplished all the reporting requirements and then
>  they get to distribute another set of points on those who helped out.
>  Although I'm afraid it will just be a popularity contest but hey my
>  two cents is still two cents :D
>  
To what end??
What does it benefit me to have 5000 points, or for someone else to
have 5,000,0000?
Would you have us kick people out that don't maintain a certain point level?

Here is the problem that we are really trying to deal with:
For better or worse we have a low barrier to entry in the Ambassadors.
In many respects I think that's great, because it allows people to get
involved easily. On the other hand we have these 'representatives' of
Fedora who may have no prior experience with the project, perhaps even
no real experience with the F/LOSS community in general. There are
times (they generally follow the email threads that hit the
ambassadors list every few months about including proprietary blobs in
the kernel or patent encumbered media codecs in Fedora) when I think
that the Ambassadors group should be something that existing
contributors attain to - that after you have been known to the
community and we know you will do the work that you are invited to
become an ambassador and begin representing us. The rest of the time I
think that the low barrier is a good thing, after all it's how I
became involved with Fedora (though I had been involved with another
OSS project prior to that) I was one of those 'hardly does anything'
Ambassadors for a number of months at a time. I also was one of the
people who once advocated for patent encumbered codecs to be included.

[susmit shannigrahi]

>  I don't really like the idea of a points system for events.
Neither do I.

>  I'm
>  currently attending college at Sam Houston State University which is
>  where I do majority of my ambassador work, trying to get my fellow
>  computer science students involved, get faculty involved, even working
>  towards getting the computer science department to fund some open
>  source development and the work I do won't exactly rank very high on a
>  points system because I'm not able to make it to thinks like fosdem
>  and fudcon due to financial limitations. 
How do you conclude that attending Events make contribution better
than what you do?
As an ambassador, I believe your work is great!!! My point is not
having category system in Ambassadors.

Point is to let the world know that ambassadors are reliable person,
one can atleast have a proper information or pointer to informations
from them.

If someone is unable to do even that, (replying to mails, pointing to
wiki or mailing lists)
it will be better not to have them as ambassador.
And this is just happening.


>  I also agree with inode0 in a big way. I work full time, I'm a
> full
>  time college student, I'm a fedora package maintainer, I'm a fedora
>  ambassador, and outside that I try to have some interaction with the
>  real world. Adding mandatory monthly reporting to my list in order to
>  prove or disprove contributions that I have or have not done will
>  honestly be discouraging and a big burden for my already lacking free
>  time. 
Monthly report was just a suggestion to get the conversation going. It
is not that I insist on that only. If we get some other way which
works, I am fine with that too..


-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================
Sent from: Calcutta Wb India.

[Joerg Simon]

Am Dienstag 17 Februar 2009 15:51:50 schrieb inode0:
>  Can the FAmSCo membership folks suggest a good way to deal with
> this?
>  Thanks for bringing up one option we have Susmit. This is a festering
>  problem that is only going to get worse the longer we ignore it. 
I have not read all emails in this thread right now and posted similar 
intention to this topic to famsco-list before - all this reminds me to the 
famous active/inactive discussion we had ;) in 2007
<https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2007-
April/msg00004.html>

We should notice that people like EvilBob and others, left Ambassadors because 
whe have no quality measures like the packagers, artwork, infra or docs where 
they have to proof commitment before they get sponsored. If you want that 
someone have to proof a real contribution before i can sponsor him, how should 
quality measures look like? 
A Ambassador should be noisy in his work, but we need to be carefull with 
judging the work of our not so noisy fellows, we should offer them our help in 
form of mentoring and leave them alone, if they do not want our help - as long 
as they make no harm to the project or the reputation of other Ambassadors. We 
have many glorious examples how valuable contribution within Ambassador Group 
can look like and i understand that all hard working Ambassadors are annoyed 
if they did not get help from Ambassadors around there regional Area. 

But what is our real goal? We should not waste our Power with hunting inactive 
Ambassadors, lets put this energy in better mentoring and better tools to 
increase our quality.


CU Joerg


-- 
Joerg (kital) Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
http://kitall.blogspot.com
Key Fingerprint:
3691 0989 2DCA 58A2 8D1F 2CAC C823 558E 5B5B 5688

[Neville A. Cross]

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 9:48 AM, susmit shannigrahi
<thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
<snip>
>  Monthly report was just a suggestion to get the conversation going. It
>  is not that I insist on that only. If we get some other way which
>  works, I am fine with that too..
>
>
>  --
>  Regards,
>  Susmit.
>  
I feel that if someone is too busy to report means that probably is
overdoing his or her contribution to the project. Peak contributions
are not sustainable on the long run. I am not advocate for monthly
formal reports, but some sort of report may be good.

I think that will be good to have a better system that helps purge
"dead" people. The low barrier entry allows many people to be enlisted
and it is good. The problem is that a lot of people get in, but there
is no way out. If the person does not take care to tell his or her
inactivity in the personal page, there is no other way to tell. Worst
when the just go away without telling.

Take the example of Central America, there are ambassadors listed for
Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Costa Rica and Panama for more than
two months and they haven't created their page. I can tell because I
checked for it when I joined free media program by the end of November
2008. There will be a Central American FOSS gathering coming on June
2009 and I can not contact them.

At the end of the year we can show statistics of Ambassadors growing,
but aren't  real because there is no system to trim down the numbers.

I feel that there is need to tackle the issue of "dead" people.
Reports are good but, I may think of that as a suggestion more than a
request. I don't mind low activity ambassadors.

I have write a lot... my two cents... what others have to said?



-- 
Neville
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

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Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[susmit shannigrahi]

>  I feel that there is need to tackle the issue of "dead"
> people.
>  Reports are good but, I may think of that as a suggestion more than a
>  request. I don't mind low activity ambassadors. 
Exactly. I/we have no issues with low activity ambassadors, whatever
little someone's contribution is, it is still worth counting.

What matters is that we *must* get rid of our *dead* ambassadors first.

I guess that will be a reasonable chunk.




-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================
Sent from: Calcutta Wb India.

[Mathieu Bridon]

>  Take the example of Central America, there are ambassadors listed
> for
>  Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Costa Rica and Panama for more than
>  two months and they haven't created their page. I can tell because I
>  checked for it when I joined free media program by the end of November
>  2008. There will be a Central American FOSS gathering coming on June
>  2009 and I can not contact them. 
IIRC, when Joerg contacted mewhen I applied to be an Ambassador, one
of the items of the list of things he asked me to do was to create a
personal page with ways of contacting me.

Isn't that list mandatory ?

Can someone be validated as an Ambassador if he didn't complete all the steps ?


----------

Mathieu Bridon (bochecha)

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Benjamin Franklin

[Francesco Ugolini]

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:51 PM, inode0 <inode0(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Can the FAmSCo membership folks suggest a good way to deal with this?
Absolutely, I've just wrote about this and I receive an answer that
helped me figuring out how the discussion is evolving.

I think a template is a good thing if someone needs it. From my POV I
could say that if someone volunteer to create this one, he/she will be
welcomed, BTW, I'm sure everyone should be free to use it or no. Why?

I think each of us has his own background and we use to work in
different way, so I think, in order to simplify the work, we have to
let people be free to use or not a "possible" template. Then, if
someone will need a scheme/template to report his/her activity he/she
could use the template and the other one could be able to continue
using M-L, blog posts and so on.

I'm sure this could be a really interesting way to face different
demands, isn't it?

Regards

Francesco Ugolini

[inode0]

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Francesco Ugolini
<francesco(a)ephisia.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:51 PM, inode0 <inode0(a)gmail.com&gt;
> wrote:
> > Can the FAmSCo membership folks suggest a good way to deal with this?
>
>  Absolutely, I've just wrote about this and I receive an answer that
>  helped me figuring out how the discussion is evolving.
>
>  I think a template is a good thing if someone needs it. From my POV I
>  could say that if someone volunteer to create this one, he/she will be
>  welcomed, BTW, I'm sure everyone should be free to use it or no. Why?
>
>  I think each of us has his own background and we use to work in
>  different way, so I think, in order to simplify the work, we have to
>  let people be free to use or not a "possible" template. Then, if
>  someone will need a scheme/template to report his/her activity he/she
>  could use the template and the other one could be able to continue
>  using M-L, blog posts and so on.
>
>  I'm sure this could be a really interesting way to face different
>  demands, isn't it? 
Oh, yes, as a voluntary model for activity reporting this would be
fine. My question, which wasn't clear enough, was about how to deal
with ambassadors listed on our wiki who won't even respond to other
ambassadors who contact them? It seems quite a few of us view this as
a problem that can only get worse and it is important that when
someone seeks out an ambassador for help or guidance on the wiki that
they find someone willing and eager to provide assistance.

While I know you have worked on similar questions in the past it might
be time to revisit those in this one confined area. Without
necessarily considering ambassador group membership, can we find a way
to make the wiki's list of ambassadors a more useful and effective way
for the public and Fedora community members to contact ambassadors for
whatever reason? Some great ideas are popping up about this now.

John

[Francesco Ugolini]

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:31 AM, inode0 <inode0(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

<My question, which wasn't clear enough, was about how to deal
>  with ambassadors listed on our wiki who won't even respond to
> other
>  ambassadors who contact them? It seems quite a few of us view this as
>  a problem that can only get worse and it is important that when
>  someone seeks out an ambassador for help or guidance on the wiki that
>  they find someone willing and eager to provide assistance. 
The goals between Membership and Mentoring initiative is to help
solving this lack, working with new Ambassadors and create a direct
relation between the Project and the new members.

>  While I know you have worked on similar questions in the past it
> might
>  be time to revisit those in this one confined area. Without
>  necessarily considering ambassador group membership, can we find a way
>  to make the wiki's list of ambassadors a more useful and effective way
>  for the public and Fedora community members to contact ambassadors for
>  whatever reason? Some great ideas are popping up about this now.
>
>  John 
Great question. This is a quite complicate issue, we have first of all
to consider what could be public and what couldn't be.

If you take a look at Privacy policy
(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy), this is the
possible usage of personal informations:

 | Fedora uses the personal information you provide to:
 |
 |     * create and maintain your accounts;
 |     * answer your questions;
 |     * send you information;
 |     * for research activities, including the production of
statistical reports (such aggregated information is not used to
contact the  subjects of the report);
 |     * send you surveys.

I'm not a lawyer, but I could assume that if something is not present
in the list, couldn't be done without the consent of the user.

So having a only, public space with people information (without asking
people to do this volunteer) isn't simple as it could be.

I want to underline that what I'm saying isn't a professional advice,
just some consideration on a legal paper. Suggestions are welcome.

Regards

Francesco Ugolini

[Neville A. Cross]

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Francesco Ugolini
<francesco(a)ephisia.org&gt; wrote:
<snip>
>  If you take a look at Privacy policy
>  (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy), this is the
>  possible usage of personal informations:
>
>   | Fedora uses the personal information you provide to:
>   |
>   |     * create and maintain your accounts;
>   |     * answer your questions;
>   |     * send you information;
>   |     * for research activities, including the production of
>  statistical reports (such aggregated information is not used to
>  contact the  subjects of the report);
>   |     * send you surveys.
>
>  I'm not a lawyer, but I could assume that if something is not present
>  in the list, couldn't be done without the consent of the user.
>
>  So having a only, public space with people information (without asking
>  people to do this volunteer) isn't simple as it could be.
>
>  I want to underline that what I'm saying isn't a professional advice,
>  just some consideration on a legal paper. Suggestions are welcome.
>
>  Regards
>
>  Francesco Ugolini
>  
Should this means that a more inclusive document has to be accepted by
ambassadors Or maybe it points to the need to a "members only pages"
that will allow ambassadors to have more info regarding other
ambassadors, than what will be available to the public? I just
thinking out loud here.

I think the most urgent topic is to shake the tree so the "dead"
leaves fall. Better if this can became a process  to avoid
accumulation of non relevant data. Streamlining the info, may help to
figure out if more complex actions are required.

Again, I am not against an ambassador that do a little activity or do
a lot but does not show it on-line. I am in favour of having a better
way to get in touch with each other when it is needed.

Should be that ambassadors get a yearly reminder to refresh their
membership and failing to answer that automated email within a month
move you to inactive status. Failing twice delete the account. It is
just an idea. The time frame may need better thinking.

Best regards.

-- 
Neville
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Francesco Ugolini]

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:13 PM, Neville A. Cross <nacross(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Should this means that a more inclusive document has to be accepted by
>  ambassadors Or maybe it points to the need to a "members only pages"
>  that will allow ambassadors to have more info regarding other
>  ambassadors, than what will be available to the public? I just
>  thinking out loud here. 
I'm just wondering if currently is possible to create a global page
with all the name and details. Personal pages are made by Ambassadors
themselves, this means there aren't any obstacles. My concerns were
related to Ambassadors maps etc.

>  I think the most urgent topic is to shake the tree so the
> "dead"
>  leaves fall. Better if this can became a process  to avoid
>  accumulation of non relevant data. Streamlining the info, may help to
>  figure out if more complex actions are required. 
We had such discussion twice or more since Ambassadors come to life.
If you take a look at the past years M-L archive you will find that,
at the end of the discussion, the conclusions were that nobody should
be removed even if inactive: we SHOULD concentrate on active members.

I can assure you that actually is possible to understand who is active
or not: take a look at event reports, M-L activity, IRC presence and,
even if we didn't see them, to the thousands of micro events around
the earth (LUG meetings etc). All those facts should encourage us not
to think at the inactive side, but working improving active
ambassadors experience.

Your attention to such topic underline the importance you give to the
project, and, using and sharing this passion, we should create a
better future for Fedora.

Just to be clear: with the new Membership Policy (see September 08 M-L
archive), we have enhanced the joining process, know it would be
difficult to have people that automatically fill a form, but, whoever
want to became an ambassadors, should follow a process (many of us
have just tried it).

>  Should be that ambassadors get a yearly reminder to refresh their
>  membership and failing to answer that automated email within a month
>  move you to inactive status. Failing twice delete the account. It is
>  just an idea. The time frame may need better thinking. 
See the considerations above. BTW, as I just said, this situation was
reduced with the new Membership policies.

Regards

Francesco Ugolini

[susmit shannigrahi]

>  We had such discussion twice or more since Ambassadors come to life.
>  If you take a look at the past years M-L archive you will find that,
>  at the end of the discussion, the conclusions were that nobody should
>  be removed even if inactive: we SHOULD concentrate on active members. 
This is not about active/inactive thing. This is about *dead*
ambassadors.  They are different.

I agree nobody should be removed if inactive, they need mentoring.
I don't agree that nobody should be removed even if he left the project.


>  I can assure you that actually is possible to understand who is
> active
>  or not: take a look at event reports, M-L activity, IRC presence and,
>  eveteamsn if we didn't see them, to the thousands of micro events around
>  the earth (LUG meetings etc). All those facts should encourage us not
>  to think at the inactive side, but working improving active
>  ambassadors experience. 
I am, in fact many of us are not at all interested in knowing who are inactive.
We want the ambassadors who are not anymore with fedora to be removed,
just because of the simple fact is these are coming into our way with
their dead wiki pages.

Almost all the other teams do their house cleaning. Doc team does,
packaging team does. So what's the problem with us?
inode0 said a nice thing on IRC that if we don't do house keeping, we
will end up with 20000 pages of ambassadors and 90% of them
unresponsive.

Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.

When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non
responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody
helped us", I feel bad.

This was not because we are inactive, this person went to the wiki
page of some local ambassador who are dead. So he didn't got any reply
from any of them in spite of repeated emails.

If we choose too ignore the issue, these allegations will increase
rapidly in near future.
I am not, rather we are not ok with that.

Thannks.

-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================
Sent from: Kolkata West Bengal India.

[Neville A. Cross]

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 8:56 PM, susmit shannigrahi
<thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
<snip>
>  Almost all the other teams do their house cleaning. Doc team does,
>  packaging team does. So what's the problem with us?
>  inode0 said a nice thing on IRC that if we don't do house keeping, we
>  will end up with 20000 pages of ambassadors and 90% of them
>  unresponsive.
>
>  Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
>
>  When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non
>  responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody
>  helped us", I feel bad.
>
>  This was not because we are inactive, this person went to the wiki
>  page of some local ambassador who are dead. So he didn't got any reply
>  from any of them in spite of repeated emails.
>  
<snip>

Francesco said that I feel this way because I am passionate about the
project. This is a good thing, but let me thinking that maybe I am a
bit too much enthusiastic. Trying to encompass unresponsive (or dead)
ambassadors with not kicking people out... what we need is a better
way to direct people to those who do respond. The problem is I can't
imagine a way of doing this without making a system that pings people.
The report template make sense to show where you last drop your
participation. Maybe we need some one with an esthetically
appreciation to design a chronological template to brag about last
stuff that they have done, then invite people to use it. Those who
pick up this will more likely to be contacted as they show recent
activity. Luckily this may became a common practice. I feel the urge
to keep this going as the idea of ambassador template that was for
having the minimal info .... never happened.

I still feel that some housekeeping will be good. But I am trying to
propose a less passionate approach, trying to be half way with other
perspectives. Not sure If I am making sense, or if I am attaining a
middle ground.

Probably I am deflating my two cents by writing too much :)


-- 
Neville
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Yn1v
Linux User # 473217

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check: http://www.clickmanagua.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Jason Benedict Low]

+

susmit shannigrahi wrote:
> > We had such discussion twice or more since Ambassadors come to
> life.
> > If you take a look at the past years M-L archive you will find that,
> > at the end of the discussion, the conclusions were that nobody should
> > be removed even if inactive: we SHOULD concentrate on active members.
> >     
>
>  This is not about active/inactive thing. This is about *dead*
>  ambassadors.  They are different.
>
>  I agree nobody should be removed if inactive, they need mentoring.
>  I don't agree that nobody should be removed even if he left the project.
>
>
>    
> > I can assure you that actually is possible to understand who is active
> > or not: take a look at event reports, M-L activity, IRC presence and,
> > eveteamsn if we didn't see them, to the thousands of micro events around
> > the earth (LUG meetings etc). All those facts should encourage us not
> > to think at the inactive side, but working improving active
> > ambassadors experience.
> >     
>
>  I am, in fact many of us are not at all interested in knowing who are inactive.
>  We want the ambassadors who are not anymore with fedora to be removed,
>  just because of the simple fact is these are coming into our way with
>  their dead wiki pages.
>
>  Almost all the other teams do their house cleaning. Doc team does,
>  packaging team does. So what's the problem with us?
>  inode0 said a nice thing on IRC that if we don't do house keeping, we
>  will end up with 20000 pages of ambassadors and 90% of them
>  unresponsive.
>
>  Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
>
>  When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non
>  responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody
>  helped us", I feel bad.
>
>  This was not because we are inactive, this person went to the wiki
>  page of some local ambassador who are dead. So he didn't got any reply
>  from any of them in spite of repeated emails.
>
>  If we choose too ignore the issue, these allegations will increase
>  rapidly in near future.
>  I am not, rather we are not ok with that.
>
>  Thannks.
>
>     
-- 
Best Regards,
Jason
Singapore Fedora Ambassador
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Jason_Benedict_Low
VoIP = sip:[e-mail]
------ When i work nobody care. When i rest everybody stare. ------

[Roy Ong]

On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 12:27 +0800, Jason Benedict Low wrote:
>  + 
>  
>  susmit shannigrahi wrote: 
>  > > We had such discussion twice or more since Ambassadors come to life.
>  > > If you take a look at the past years M-L archive you will find that,
>  > > at the end of the discussion, the conclusions were that nobody should
>  > > be removed even if inactive: we SHOULD concentrate on active members.
>  > >     
>  > 
>  > This is not about active/inactive thing. This is about *dead*
>  > ambassadors.  They are different.
>  > 
>  > I agree nobody should be removed if inactive, they need mentoring.
>  > I don't agree that nobody should be removed even if he left the project.
>  > 
>  > 
>  >   
>  > > I can assure you that actually is possible to understand who is active
>  > > or not: take a look at event reports, M-L activity, IRC presence and,
>  > > eveteamsn if we didn't see them, to the thousands of micro events around
>  > > the earth (LUG meetings etc). All those facts should encourage us not
>  > > to think at the inactive side, but working improving active
>  > > ambassadors experience.
>  > >     
>  > 
>  > I am, in fact many of us are not at all interested in knowing who are inactive.
>  > We want the ambassadors who are not anymore with fedora to be removed,
>  > just because of the simple fact is these are coming into our way with
>  > their dead wiki pages.
>  > 
>  > Almost all the other teams do their house cleaning. Doc team does,
>  > packaging team does. So what's the problem with us?
>  > inode0 said a nice thing on IRC that if we don't do house keeping, we
>  > will end up with 20000 pages of ambassadors and 90% of them
>  > unresponsive.
>  > 
>  > Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
>  > 
>  > When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non
>  > responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody
>  > helped us", I feel bad.
>  > 
>  > This was not because we are inactive, this person went to the wiki
>  > page of some local ambassador who are dead. So he didn't got any reply
>  > from any of them in spite of repeated emails.
>  > 
>  > If we choose too ignore the issue, these allegations will increase
>  > rapidly in near future.
>  > I am not, rather we are not ok with that.
>  > 
>  > Thannks.
>  > 
>  >    
+ + 
i think there is a need to agree on a proper definition of "dead
ambassadors" ...

[Tony Guntharp]

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like this very subject is brought
up at least once every calendar year. I can only speak for myself but
is someone is an ambassador regardless of how active they appear to be
to other ambassadors if they aren't asking for $$ or other stuff what
does it matter? Does it somehow diminish your role as an ambassador? I
don't think it does.

Can Karsten or Max or someone please make a goddamn decision and put
this to rest once an for all and make an entry into the wiki
somewhere?

-t

Tony Guntharp
Co-Founder SourceForge.net
fusion94(a)gmail.com
1 [phone]



On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 21:34, Roy Ong <me(a)royong.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, 2009-02-19 at 12:27 +0800, Jason Benedict Low wrote:
> > +
> >
> > susmit shannigrahi wrote:
> > > > We had such discussion twice or more since Ambassadors come to life.
> > > > If you take a look at the past years M-L archive you will find that,
> > > > at the end of the discussion, the conclusions were that nobody should
> > > > be removed even if inactive: we SHOULD concentrate on active members.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is not about active/inactive thing. This is about *dead*
> > > ambassadors.  They are different.
> > >
> > > I agree nobody should be removed if inactive, they need mentoring.
> > > I don't agree that nobody should be removed even if he left the project.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I can assure you that actually is possible to understand who is active
> > > > or not: take a look at event reports, M-L activity, IRC presence and,
> > > > eveteamsn if we didn't see them, to the thousands of micro events
> around
> > > > the earth (LUG meetings etc). All those facts should encourage us not
> > > > to think at the inactive side, but working improving active
> > > > ambassadors experience.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am, in fact many of us are not at all interested in knowing who are inactive.
> > > We want the ambassadors who are not anymore with fedora to be removed,
> > > just because of the simple fact is these are coming into our way with
> > > their dead wiki pages.
> > >
> > > Almost all the other teams do their house cleaning. Doc team does,
> > > packaging team does. So what's the problem with us?
> > > inode0 said a nice thing on IRC that if we don't do house keeping, we
> > > will end up with 20000 pages of ambassadors and 90% of them
> > > unresponsive.
> > >
> > > Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
> > >
> > > When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non
> > > responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody
> > > helped us", I feel bad.
> > >
> > > This was not because we are inactive, this person went to the wiki
> > > page of some local ambassador who are dead. So he didn't got any reply
> > > from any of them in spite of repeated emails.
> > >
> > > If we choose too ignore the issue, these allegations will increase
> > > rapidly in near future.
> > > I am not, rather we are not ok with that.
> > >
> > > Thannks.
> > >
> > >
>
>  + +
>  i think there is a need to agree on a proper definition of "dead
>  ambassadors" ...
>
>
>  --
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
>  Fedora-ambassadors-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
>

[inode0]

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Roy Ong <me(a)royong.com&gt; wrote:
>  + +
>  i think there is a need to agree on a proper definition of "dead
>  ambassadors" ... 
I haven't referred to them as "dead" ambassadors but the ambassadors
we are talking about are ambassadors who don't respond to email when
they are contacted via their ambassador wiki links. All I am in favor
of is removing the wiki links to them, not removing them as
ambassadors as they may well be doing other ambassador activities.

We simply don't want to frustrate people who are trying to contact us
via wiki links, which is one common way for people both inside the
Fedora community and outside to try to contact us. We also don't want
to miss important opportunities for Fedora which now happens when
those contacted don't respond to inquiries.

John

[Roy Ong]

On Wed, 2009-02-18 at 23:43 -0600, inode0 wrote:
>  On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Roy Ong <me(a)royong.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  > + +
>  > i think there is a need to agree on a proper definition of "dead
>  > ambassadors" ...
>  
>  I haven't referred to them as "dead" ambassadors but the ambassadors
>  we are talking about are ambassadors who don't respond to email when
>  they are contacted via their ambassador wiki links. All I am in favor
>  of is removing the wiki links to them, not removing them as
>  ambassadors as they may well be doing other ambassador activities.
>  
>  We simply don't want to frustrate people who are trying to contact us
>  via wiki links, which is one common way for people both inside the
>  Fedora community and outside to try to contact us. We also don't want
>  to miss important opportunities for Fedora which now happens when
>  those contacted don't respond to inquiries.
>  
>  John 
i'll agree on that. responding to an email and keeping the wiki updated
with a valid email address is the least that one should do.

[susmit shannigrahi]

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Tony Guntharp <fusion94(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like this very subject is
> brought
>  up at least once every calendar year. 
Correct !!!

>  I can only speak for myself but  is someone is an ambassador
> regardless of how
>  active they appear to be
>  to other ambassadors if they aren't asking for $$ or other stuff what
>  does it matter? 
> From individual point of view it does not hurt anyone. This is not
about money or godies either.

But if you think from Fedora Project's point of view, it surely hurts
Fedora's prospect of getting spread. Also it gets bad reputation of
inactivity and incoordination to the project.


>  Does it somehow diminish your role as an ambassador? I
>  don't think it does. 
No it does not.
But as I said earlier, I am not concerned about myself.
I am concerned about Fedora.

-- 
Regards,
Susmit.

=============================================
ssh
0x86DD170A
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
=============================================
Sent from: Calcutta Wb India.

[Francesco Ugolini]

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 3:56 AM, susmit shannigrahi
<thinklinux.ssh(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  This is not about active/inactive thing. This is about *dead*
>  ambassadors.  They are different.
>
>  I agree nobody should be removed if inactive, they need mentoring.
>  I don't agree that nobody should be removed even if he left the project. 
If someone want to leave the project he/she has to communicate to
Membership Administrators (and then FAmSCo) and he/she will be
removed, but with a specific request of the person.

The big problem is how we can understand if a person is inactive or
dead. I know it seems a stupid question, at the end when we use the
term inactive we don't talk about people that haven't do anything for
an x period, but generally who isn't active.

I think we have to think at the problem from the positive side. Who is
active? I just answered the question in my previous mail. Who is
inactive? Simply who isn't active, and the community in the last years
clearly express the will that we need to focus on active community. A
person isn't recoginzed simply by being member Ambassadors Account
System group and having a wiki page: an Ambassador is a person that do
something (from the smallest to the biggest activity) and do this for
the benefit of all community.

> From my side, it would be difficult to decide who could be considered
dead or inactive. If someone think that he/she isn't able to do
something for Fedora (in Ambassadors Project), he/she has to take on
his/her own the decision to remove him/herself.

To be sincere a year ago I had a different vision, but sharing with
community opinions I understand the important principle that we have
to start from the most important side: the active one, working, that's
for sure, inviting "inactive" people joining our initiative,
suggesting ideas to make them again active etc.

>  I am, in fact many of us are not at all interested in knowing who are
> inactive.
>  We want the ambassadors who are not anymore with fedora to be removed,
>  just because of the simple fact is these are coming into our way with
>  their dead wiki pages. 
It's simple to understand who is active, I just said this. You can
simply see who is reporting about events/initiative, who is involved
in discussion in the list/IRC and who is organizing small initiative
in his city/neighbourhood or simply talk with people around him about
Fedora. From the last point I agree it's difficult to measure this,
but this is the primary reason I think we shouldn't think to give a
person active or inactive status.

>  Also I have problem with dead ambassadors personally.
>
>  When people cone us to me and say "Fedora ambassadors are non
>  responsive...in spite of having 120 Ambassadors for India, nobody
>  helped us", I feel bad. 
Maybe it could be usefull, with the acceptance of the people (due to
privacy policy concern), creating a page with a contact list.

Ambassador "job" is a wide range "job": many people aren't
directly
involved in discussion in the list, but they are doing a big an
precious job.
The big problem is that it's not simple to verify this phenomenon: I
agree if someone tell me to think about a solution for really small
initiative reporting, but, as it happened one year, or more, ago, I
learned that an Ambassador from a small country (take a look at the
M-L) wasn't able to connect due to a concrete lack of technology: from
a outer POV everyone could think he was inactive, but from a inner POV
he was active.

I think the idea someone expressed in the previous posts, to have a
page could work, but each person would personally have to make the
choice to have his name in a Contact list (please don't call it with
"active" or "not inactive" tag). I'm sure this idea could be a
real
way to know who is available to be contacted.

> From the past experience I could clearly say that just from a small
event you can simply understand who is active.

I hope to have cleared my thoughts.

Regards

Francesco Ugolini

Small seminar at AIT Engineering college , Ahmedabad Gujarat

[ElectroMech]

Hi All,

I am going to conduct one small seminar for Linux and Fedora at AIT 
Engeneering college , AHMEDABAD.

This is only limited for the college students and general Linux and 
Fedora only.

I am going to distribute Fedora 10 DVD free at the college. ( 
approximate 60 DVDs ).

It is on 21st Feb 2009.

Will submit the report.

Thanx



-- 
Nilesh Vaghela
ElectroMech
Redhat Channel Partner and Training Partner
16, Sun Rise complex,
Nr. Mansi cross Road,
Satellite Rd, Ahmedabad
25, The Emperor, Fatehgunj, Baroda.
www.electromech.info