12:42 p.m.
Hi
Something for the store SIG to consider as there is a good amount of
support for it
http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=184031
Rahul
2:20 p.m.
On Fri, 21 Mar 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
Something for the store SIG to consider as there is a good amount of
support for it
http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=184031
I really think this idea is neat, and is something missing from
Fedora... it's not absolutely necessary, per se, but many other
distributions have CDs you can buy that support the project.
The only thing that would potentially hang it up would be the need to
design/write a quick manual of some sort and where to print the
stickers.
Of course, I'd look at another company as a great example in doing this:
Apple. Their box for the latest OS X, Leopard, is very nice, and
utilizes its space well. There is a short manual containing information
on installing, what you can do with it, and how to get help (however the
text in it is quite small), the installation DVD is included, and of
course, Apple logo stickers.
I'm sure you can find pictures online, but if necessary I'll take
pictures if I get a chance.
-- ian
10:20 p.m.
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Ian Weller wrote:
| I really think this idea is neat, and is something missing from
| Fedora... it's not absolutely necessary, per se, but many other
| distributions have CDs you can buy that support the project.
If i recall the "contribute to Fedora via monies by non RHT entities"
bit was not possible for some reason (vague recollection being the
hassles to make that happen far outweigh actual collections) - does that
still hold ?
- --
http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published
http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science
http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work
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12:04 a.m.
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
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Hash: SHA1
Ian Weller wrote:
| I really think this idea is neat, and is something missing from
| Fedora... it's not absolutely necessary, per se, but many other
| distributions have CDs you can buy that support the project.
If i recall the "contribute to Fedora via monies by non RHT entities"
bit was not possible for some reason (vague recollection being the
hassles to make that happen far outweigh actual collections) - does that
still hold ?
To some extend but we have found creative ways around that. Refer
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Contribute
Rahul
12:16 a.m.
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Rahul Sundaram wrote:
| To some extend but we have found creative ways around that. Refer
| http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Contribute
But this still does not tell the potential individual contributor who
can and wishes to only contribute money
"And, yes, some resources are always appreciated. Software mirror sites
are a good thing. You can get involved in the Sponsored media or Free
Media program. Yes, yes, if you want to donate resources, there are
always good ways. Way at the bottom of the page we've got a pretty good
list. But first ..."
Mirrors, Sponsored Media or Free Media require a bit more effort than
just click Contribute To Fedora button and pay via Paypal or something
similar
- --
http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published
http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science
http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work
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12:15 a.m.
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
| To some extend but we have found creative ways around that. Refer
| http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Contribute
But this still does not tell the potential individual contributor who
can and wishes to only contribute money
"And, yes, some resources are always appreciated. Software mirror sites
are a good thing. You can get involved in the Sponsored media or Free
Media program. Yes, yes, if you want to donate resources, there are
always good ways. Way at the bottom of the page we've got a pretty good
list. But first ..."
Mirrors, Sponsored Media or Free Media require a bit more effort than
just click Contribute To Fedora button and pay via Paypal or something
similar
You can donate to Free Media via paypal
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia/Donation
Rahul
2:27 p.m.
On Fri, 21 Mar 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
Something for the store SIG to consider as there is a good amount of
support for it
http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=184031
Someone on the forum also
linked to this:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ#head-b3ac209faa80d843496ba43b8a3048e638...
"Will Fedora be sold in retail?
"Fedora will not be sold through the retail channel as a shrinkwrapped
box. There is no list price for Fedora. The rapid development pace we
expect for Fedora doesn't suit retail distribution — it is a lot of work
to get a box product in and out of the channel, and retail isn't set up
to efficiently handle software that is updated as often as every six
months. Also, the creation of packaging and other materials that are
necessary for retail significantly slows down the time to market, which
means that users can't get the freshest bits when they are still truly
fresh. Further information on Red Hat's retail product line is available
at the Red Hat website."
I still think it's a neat concept, however it may not fit Fedora all
that well. Potentially a "starter kit" would be something neat, with
manuals, general FAQs, and, of course, stickers ;)
-- ian
2:49 p.m.
Ian Weller wrote:
On Fri, 21 Mar 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi
>
> Something for the store SIG to consider as there is a good amount of
> support for it
>
> http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=184031
Someone on the forum also linked to this:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ#head-b3ac209faa80d843496ba43b8a3048e638...
"Will Fedora be sold in retail?
"Fedora will not be sold through the retail channel as a shrinkwrapped
box. There is no list price for Fedora. The rapid development pace we
expect for Fedora doesn't suit retail distribution — it is a lot of work
to get a box product in and out of the channel, and retail isn't set up
to efficiently handle software that is updated as often as every six
months. Also, the creation of packaging and other materials that are
necessary for retail significantly slows down the time to market, which
means that users can't get the freshest bits when they are still truly
fresh. Further information on Red Hat's retail product line is available
at the Red Hat website."
I still think it's a neat concept, however it may not fit Fedora all
that well. Potentially a "starter kit" would be something neat, with
manuals, general FAQs, and, of course, stickers ;)
As the current FAQ maintainer and the one who added that particular
answer to the FAQ, let me point out some details for additional context.
---
When Red Hat decided to create the Red Hat Linux Project which later got
renamed in Fedora Project, Red Hat published this particular answer as a
result of it's experience (and dealing with loses in a retail product)
while creating Red Hat Linux releases roughly twice a year and I copied
it over from http://fedora.redhat.com pages when I created the FAQs
since I knew that site was going away soon at that time.
A lot of details have changed and Fedora Project of today is a different
beast (or angel if you will). We could certainly reevaluate our
considerations and IMO we should.
Rahul
4:46 p.m.
Rahul Sundaram escribió:
As the current FAQ maintainer and the one who added that particular
answer to the FAQ, let me point out some details for additional context.
---
When Red Hat decided to create the Red Hat Linux Project which later
got renamed in Fedora Project, Red Hat published this particular
answer as a result of it's experience (and dealing with loses in a
retail product) while creating Red Hat Linux releases roughly twice a
year and I copied it over from http://fedora.redhat.com pages when I
created the FAQs since I knew that site was going away soon at that time.
A lot of details have changed and Fedora Project of today is a
different beast (or angel if you will). We could certainly reevaluate
our considerations and IMO we should.
Rahul
This is very interesting indeed, and I was chatting about this very
issue with a friend not so long ago. We both have been Red Hat users
since a long time (me from RHL 5.0 and he from 6.0). While indeed a
retail model wouldn't completely suit Fedora, especially when there is a
Fedora release every 6 months, what we thought could be a possible
solution was to retail Fedora every other release. Usually the Spring
release is an odd number release (like forth coming 9), and Fall
releases are even numbers (for instance, last November's Fedora 8), so
why not focus either of these releases as the retail release? That would
mean that a new retail version would be out every ~12 months instead of
every 6 months, avoiding the management nightmare that a semestral
release would be.
5:21 p.m.
On Fri, 21 Mar 2008, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
This is very interesting indeed, and I was chatting about this very
issue with a friend not so long ago. We both have been Red Hat users
since a long time (me from RHL 5.0 and he from 6.0). While indeed a
retail model wouldn't completely suit Fedora, especially when there is a
Fedora release every 6 months, what we thought could be a possible
solution was to retail Fedora every other release. Usually the Spring
release is an odd number release (like forth coming 9), and Fall
releases are even numbers (for instance, last November's Fedora 8), so
why not focus either of these releases as the retail release? That would
mean that a new retail version would be out every ~12 months instead of
every 6 months, avoiding the management nightmare that a semestral
release would be.
I know a lot of people who only use even releases; I used to plan on
that until I became a package maintainer. Doing only even releases
makes sense, and you could then let people know how to use yum to update
their release if they really wanted to [1]. The instructions on the
website don't always work for everyone though -- I know it took me a few
tries to get it right. SELinux gets in the way quite a bit too, and
we'd probably have to really test it, especially with package names
sometimes getting changed.
In my experience, it usually crashed about midway through the actual
installation, mostly due to what seemed like a lot of SELinux audit
messages being printed to the console. Dependencies resolved just fine
though.
Of course, the yum upgrade process might just be an afterthought to all
of this. I'd love to see Fedora packaged... maybe if we can get some
more consensus on this we can see F10 be the first packaged version.
-- ian
[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq
2:56 a.m.
On Sat, 2008-03-22 at 01:19 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
As the current FAQ maintainer and the one who added that particular
answer to the FAQ, let me point out some details for additional context.
...
When Red Hat decided to create the Red Hat Linux Project which later
got
renamed in Fedora Project, Red Hat published this particular answer as a
result of it's experience (and dealing with loses in a retail product)
while creating Red Hat Linux releases roughly twice a year and I copied
it over from http://fedora.redhat.com pages when I created the FAQs
since I knew that site was going away soon at that time.
A lot of details have changed and Fedora Project of today is a different
beast (or angel if you will). We could certainly reevaluate our
considerations and IMO we should.
It is worth pointing out that you did not have experience from inside of
a rapidly moving distribution trying also to be a retail boxed product,
right? There were very good reasons that model was a PITA and it was
dropped, reasons that haven't changed since then.
- Karsten, glad not to be writing the slimmed down version of the
Installation Guide to fit with the media pack in the retail box
--
Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr.
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41
4:09 p.m.
Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
On Sat, 2008-03-22 at 01:19 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> As the current FAQ maintainer and the one who added that particular
> answer to the FAQ, let me point out some details for additional context.
...
> When Red Hat decided to create the Red Hat Linux Project which later got
> renamed in Fedora Project, Red Hat published this particular answer as a
> result of it's experience (and dealing with loses in a retail product)
> while creating Red Hat Linux releases roughly twice a year and I copied
> it over from http://fedora.redhat.com pages when I created the FAQs
> since I knew that site was going away soon at that time.
>
> A lot of details have changed and Fedora Project of today is a different
> beast (or angel if you will). We could certainly reevaluate our
> considerations and IMO we should.
It is worth pointing out that you did not have experience from inside of
a rapidly moving distribution trying also to be a retail boxed product,
right? There were very good reasons that model was a PITA and it was
dropped, reasons that haven't changed since then.
Depends on the reasons. Some of them like the pain of commercially
supporting a retailed box product that gets released frequently does not
apply to Fedora. If you have a Fedora store, selling a box as one of
several items available seems very logical and what users would expect.
Rahul
4:11 p.m.
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
If you have a Fedora store, selling a box as one of
several items available seems very logical and what users would expect.
+1. Also, it's not like the user is necessarily going to update to each
version, and they're not necessarily gonna buy it each time.
8:27 p.m.
Ian Weller escribió:
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> If you have a Fedora store, selling a box as one of several items
> available seems very logical and what users would expect.
+1. Also, it's not like the user is necessarily going to update to each
version, and they're not necessarily gonna buy it each time.
For this approach it would be *very* convenient to have a clean upgrade
path from release to release through yum, or other program that uses yum
as its backend to ensure stuff like user settings are migrated to the
new version as painlessly as possible. System settings are harder to
deal with, but at least user data should be "simple" enough for an
automated process. The hardest part is without a doubt the partitionning
of the disk space, especially since Fedora uses LVM as default. However
this can be circumvented by creating two volumes and assigning at least
a minimum % of disk space to be set as /home, so user data can be
migrated from release to release. The "system" part of this migration
would involve four files: passwd, group, gshadow and shadow, however,
since in Fedora default user profiles use uid and gid numbers of 500 on
ward, isolating these instances with association to directories found
under /home, would be relatively easy to perform from within Anaconda,
and for user-created groups, this could also be possible by checking
user members of these groups and their associated /home directory to be
migrated. However this work, as fas as I know, has not been done to
Anaconda (I should really start learning Python!), though it could be
relatively easy to do through use of shell scripts. The partition
template is what I wouldn't know how to do. Still if a user has an older
layout, how to migrate the user data? This poses a big problem, as the
disk partitionning and formatting will erase all contents of the disk,
so this could only be done by having a minimum version of Fedora which
can be upgraded (for example, upgrade support only available from F10
onward, which upgrade is possible from F10 to F11, but not from F9 to
F10). I know these ideas would have to be discussed in the -devel
mailing list or IRC channel, but this underlying infrastructure would
certainly make more feasible a retail model of having only odd or even
release numbers available through retail. I know there is much more
involved in system upgrade than user data and application and system
configuration data, and that usually upgraded systems feel less
responsive than installed-from-scratch systems, but it could be a start.
11:48 p.m.
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
Ian Weller escribió:
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> If you have a Fedora store, selling a box as one of several items
>> available seems very logical and what users would expect.
>
> +1. Also, it's not like the user is necessarily going to update to each
> version, and they're not necessarily gonna buy it each time.
>
For this approach it would be *very* convenient to have a clean upgrade
path from release to release through yum, or other program that uses yum
as its backend to ensure stuff like user settings are migrated to the
new version as painlessly as possible. System settings are harder to
deal with, but at least user data should be "simple" enough for an
automated process. The hardest part is without a doubt the partitionning
of the disk space, especially since Fedora uses LVM as default. However
this can be circumvented by creating two volumes and assigning at least
a minimum % of disk space to be set as /home, so user data can be
migrated from release to release. The "system" part of this migration
would involve four files: passwd, group, gshadow and shadow, however,
since in Fedora default user profiles use uid and gid numbers of 500 on
ward, isolating these instances with association to directories found
under /home, would be relatively easy to perform from within Anaconda,
and for user-created groups, this could also be possible by checking
user members of these groups and their associated /home directory to be
migrated. However this work, as fas as I know, has not been done to
Anaconda (I should really start learning Python!), though it could be
relatively easy to do through use of shell scripts. The partition
template is what I wouldn't know how to do. Still if a user has an older
layout, how to migrate the user data? This poses a big problem, as the
disk partitionning and formatting will erase all contents of the disk,
so this could only be done by having a minimum version of Fedora which
can be upgraded (for example, upgrade support only available from F10
onward, which upgrade is possible from F10 to F11, but not from F9 to
F10). I know these ideas would have to be discussed in the -devel
mailing list or IRC channel, but this underlying infrastructure would
certainly make more feasible a retail model of having only odd or even
release numbers available through retail. I know there is much more
involved in system upgrade than user data and application and system
configuration data, and that usually upgraded systems feel less
responsive than installed-from-scratch systems, but it could be a start.
How does Ubuntu do it? I remember upgrading my sister's computer with
one click, and it appeared to work perfectly -- until she decided to
unplug the computer during the upgrade. >.< I have no clue what the end
result would've been, but it was probably the best upgrade interface
ever.
1:03 a.m.
Ian Weller escribió:
How does Ubuntu do it? I remember upgrading my sister's computer
with
one click, and it appeared to work perfectly -- until she decided to
unplug the computer during the upgrade. >.< I have no clue what the end
result would've been, but it was probably the best upgrade interface
ever.
I'm not sure how does Ubuntu do it, but it shouldn't be too hard to find
out by dissecting it and going through the sources. At any rate it has
been brought up before and the general consensus is that upgraded
systems do suffer performance degradation in one way or another, mainly
due to settings sticking from previous versions and the like. Still
there should be a way to upgrade without suffering that performance hit,
sadly I couldn't say how to do it. Every time it is mentioned, though,
is disregarded; or at least, that's what it looks like.
4:21 a.m.
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On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 00:03:40 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu
<gmureddu(a)prodigy.net.mx> wrote:
Ian Weller escribió:
> How does Ubuntu do it? I remember upgrading my sister's computer with
> one click, and it appeared to work perfectly -- until she decided to
> unplug the computer during the upgrade. >.< I have no clue what the end
> result would've been, but it was probably the best upgrade interface
> ever.
I'm not sure how does Ubuntu do it, but it shouldn't be too hard to find
out by dissecting it and going through the sources. At any rate it has
been brought up before and the general consensus is that upgraded
systems do suffer performance degradation in one way or another, mainly
due to settings sticking from previous versions and the like. Still
there should be a way to upgrade without suffering that performance hit,
sadly I couldn't say how to do it. Every time it is mentioned, though,
is disregarded; or at least, that's what it looks like.
Yum upgrades already work in Fedora. It's not officially supported, and
problems occur more often when 3rd party repositories are in use (though
maybe less for Livna as they have an active development repository).
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq
I did a yum upgrade from a clean F8 to Rawhide yesterday, and it worked
perfectly.
Still though, this particular discussion is a little off-topic? Maybe this
discussion should be on f-devel-list instead?
Best wishes,
Jon
11:25 a.m.
<quote sender="Gian Paolo Mureddu">
Ian Weller escribió:
> How does Ubuntu do it? I remember upgrading my sister's computer with
> one click, and it appeared to work perfectly -- until she decided to
> unplug the computer during the upgrade. >.< I have no clue what the end
> result would've been, but it was probably the best upgrade interface
> ever.
I'm not sure how does Ubuntu do it, but it shouldn't be too hard to find
out by dissecting it and going through the sources. At any rate it has been
brought up before and the general consensus is that upgraded systems do
suffer performance degradation in one way or another, mainly due to
settings sticking from previous versions and the like. Still there should
be a way to upgrade without suffering that performance hit, sadly I
couldn't say how to do it. Every time it is mentioned, though, is
disregarded; or at least, that's what it looks like.
An alternative is to have a second root. User can install the newer
version of Fedora onto the second root. If anything goes wrong during or
after the installation, he can deactivate second root, and reactivate
the last known working root. I believe OpenSolaris has something
similar.
Thanks,
Eugene
5:08 p.m.
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008, Eugene Teo wrote:
<quote sender="Gian Paolo Mureddu">
> Ian Weller escribió:
>> How does Ubuntu do it? I remember upgrading my sister's computer with
>> one click, and it appeared to work perfectly -- until she decided to
>> unplug the computer during the upgrade. >.< I have no clue what the end
>> result would've been, but it was probably the best upgrade interface
>> ever.
>
> I'm not sure how does Ubuntu do it, but it shouldn't be too hard to find
> out by dissecting it and going through the sources. At any rate it has been
> brought up before and the general consensus is that upgraded systems do
> suffer performance degradation in one way or another, mainly due to
> settings sticking from previous versions and the like. Still there should
> be a way to upgrade without suffering that performance hit, sadly I
> couldn't say how to do it. Every time it is mentioned, though, is
> disregarded; or at least, that's what it looks like.
A fallback system would be nice, but it needs to be an option, because
not everyone has enough hard drive space.
5883
days inactive
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days old
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
19 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Eugene Teo -
Gain Paolo Mureddu -
Ian Weller -
Jonathan Roberts -
Karsten Wade -
Rahul Sundaram -
sankarshan