Re: [Ambassadors] Re: Fedora 11: What do we expect?

[Md. Sabrul Jamil]

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:27 AM, Robert Scheck wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Feb 2009, Ashiqur Rahman Angel wrote:
> > I didnt know this, Fedora's objective is, to make proprietary software
> > installation difficult. If this is, then I am sorry for the mail, I dont
> > have anything to say.
>
> Speaking from the view of an ambassador, I hope, that you don't communicate
> ever such statements as above to users when acting as ambassador or when
> representing Fedora. Surely you didn't meant the sentence such hard as you
> have written it, nevertheless it seems you're lacking basics about Fedora.

What do you expect his reply when someone from project says him ¨You're not
the first one to make these suggestions. Parroting them like a broken record
isn't going to change any of the above. Sorry.¨

Dont you think, his sentence is also as hard as his?
> Please read http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems carefully in
> order
> to understand what Fedora is doing and why things are so as they are - and
> especially regarding proprietary software, there called "forbidden items".
>
> The unlucky thing is, that third-party vendors are making the installation
> of their software unnecessarily hard by themself. So if they would license
> their software as open source, it would be much more easy to integrate them
> into Fedora or even ship their software, driver or whatelse as part of our
> Linux distribution.

I am wondering, how Ubuntu make this third-party repo and packages
installation easier. If they can, why we can´t?
> As ambassador your work around proprietary software should be to show stuff
> mentioned above to the Fedora users out there and explain them, that they
> need to get in touch with their closed source vendor and bother the vendor
> hard enough, that the licensing maybe gets changed or better integrateable
> (e.g. the vendor optimizes that by the use of own Fedora repositories) into
> Fedora and other Linux distributions.
>
> Most important thing around is: Proprietary software itself must not be bad
> at all, I understand that companies need to make money. But if then a user
> complains about, he or she needs to get pointed by an ambassador to the
> cause of that. We can't solve things, we are not responsible for. Of course
> the people supporting RPM Fusion's non-free repository are doing a very
> well job. But nevertheless it would be better, if we wouldn't have need for
> such a repository at all - I think we all can agree on this.
>
> So please get more involved into Fedora and try to get the lacking basics
> about Fedora. Ask people around the project, eg. Fedora Ambassadors, Fedora
> Ambassador Mentors or similar. This mailinglist can also be used to clarify
> such things, but avoid cross-posting over several mailing lists.
>
> Finally, I didn't want to blame you at all here, futhermore trying to lower
> your current deficits. Hopefully you're getting it also that way - thanks.

Here I have to remind you one thing, did he say to add close source packages
with Fedora? No he didn´t say it, he just wanted a easier solution of this.
What Fedora really needs to do is find a legal way to make all of these
things easier.

Fedora 11: What do we expect?

[Angel]

When did I say, we have to include close source software with Fedora? I
didn´t say it. All I just wish, easiest way of the solutions of this issues.
So more people will start using Fedora.

I am using Fedora from the beginning of  the Fedora Core. Everything is easy
for me. But think about a Windows User, who wants to switch to Linux, can
you please tell me, why he will use Fedora instead of Ubuntu? In Ubuntu he
can easily enable the close source repo, he can easily install all kind of
multimedia software, he can easily install nvidia/ati driver. He can do this
thing graphically, and anyone can easily do it. But in case of Fedora, he
need to googleing to install close source software, as well as, codecs and
other drivers. Now tell me, why he will use Fedora instead of Ubuntu, as
Ubuntu is also an Open Source and Linux Operating System? Why? Because of
free and freedom? Nop. Ubuntu is also free. They also don´t include close
source software, but it´s very easier to enable close source. Now, if there
is some other reason (please explain, i dont know) you can say, why they
should use Fedora instead of Ubuntu, then I´ll say, users doesn´t care about
those reasons at all. Prove is, Ubuntu is now most popular Linux OS.

Now, if you tell me, Fedora is not for new users, then my apologies for
opening this thread. I have nothing to say. I´ll change my strategy to
promoting Fedora (I´ll encouarage only advanced Linux users to try Fedora,
not a new user).

At last, I just want to know, can anyone please tell me, why did I open this
thread? I am giving the answer, it´s so simple, because I love Fedora, I
want to promote Fedora in wider public of the world. And I want to see,
other people is using Fedora. But amximum of yours impression is, I want to
break Fedora´s goal. Please, open your mind. Try to understand. I have my
study, I have my work. I don´t have any reasons to arguing with you.

Fedora 11: What do we expect?

[Kamin Horvath]

I apologize if I worded myself incorrectly. I never meant to say that Fedora
should not be easy at all. Rather I meant that we shouldn't go out of the
way just to make it easy. It should really be a balance between increasing
usability for new users while at the same time not hindering more advanced
users.

--
Kamin Horvath
Fedora Ambassadors USA
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:mohaas05

2009/2/1 Ashiqur Rahman Angel
> When did I say, we have to include close source software with Fedora? I
> didn´t say it. All I just wish, easiest way of the solutions of this issues.
> So more people will start using Fedora.
>
> I am using Fedora from the beginning of  the Fedora Core. Everything is
> easy for me. But think about a Windows User, who wants to switch to Linux,
> can you please tell me, why he will use Fedora instead of Ubuntu? In Ubuntu
> he can easily enable the close source repo, he can easily install all kind
> of multimedia software, he can easily install nvidia/ati driver. He can do
> this thing graphically, and anyone can easily do it. But in case of Fedora,
> he need to googleing to install close source software, as well as, codecs
> and other drivers. Now tell me, why he will use Fedora instead of Ubuntu, as
> Ubuntu is also an Open Source and Linux Operating System? Why? Because of
> free and freedom? Nop. Ubuntu is also free. They also don´t include close
> source software, but it´s very easier to enable close source. Now, if there
> is some other reason (please explain, i dont know) you can say, why they
> should use Fedora instead of Ubuntu, then I´ll say, users doesn´t care about
> those reasons at all. Prove is, Ubuntu is now most popular Linux OS.
>
> Now, if you tell me, Fedora is not for new users, then my apologies for
> opening this thread. I have nothing to say. I´ll change my strategy to
> promoting Fedora (I´ll encouarage only advanced Linux users to try Fedora,
> not a new user).
>
> At last, I just want to know, can anyone please tell me, why did I open
> this thread? I am giving the answer, it´s so simple, because I love Fedora,
> I want to promote Fedora in wider public of the world. And I want to see,
> other people is using Fedora. But amximum of yours impression is, I want to
> break Fedora´s goal. Please, open your mind. Try to understand. I have my
> study, I have my work. I don´t have any reasons to arguing with you.
>
> --
> Angel
> GPG key: 0x34001F46
> Bangladesh Linux Users Alliance
> Fedora Ambassador Bangladesh
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Angel
>
> Fedora -- Freedom² and rapid innovation
>
> --
> Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list

Fedora 11: What do we expect?

[Frank Murphy]

1st Apologies for cross post. (aaagh, Top-Post)
Can we centralise all future-replies be kept to Ambassadors-List.

Ashiqur Rahman Angel wrote:
> When did I say, we have to include close source software with Fedora? I
> didn´t say it. All I just wish, easiest way of the solutions of this
> issues. So more people will start using Fedora.

1:
Not closed-source, but patented.
There is a fundamental difference between:
O.S.S. and F.O.S.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_software#Open_source_software_vs._f...
> I am using Fedora from the beginning of  the Fedora Core. Everything is
> easy for me. But think about a Windows User, who wants to switch to
> Linux, can you please tell me, why he will use Fedora instead of Ubuntu?
> In Ubuntu he can easily enable the close source repo, he can easily
> install all kind of multimedia software, he can easily install
> nvidia/ati driver. He can do this thing graphically, and anyone can
> easily do it. But in case of Fedora, he need to googleing to install
> close source software, as well as, codecs and other drivers. Now tell
> me, why he will use Fedora instead of Ubuntu, as Ubuntu is also an Open
> Source and Linux Operating System? Why? Because of free and freedom?
> Nop. Ubuntu is also free.

2:
Refer:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2009-February/msg000...

They also don´t include close source software,
> but it´s very easier to enable close source. Now, if there is some other
> reason (please explain, i dont know) you can say, why they should use
> Fedora instead of Ubuntu, then I´ll say, users doesn´t care about those
> reasons at all. Prove is, Ubuntu is now most popular Linux OS.

3: refer 1:
Most EU citizens will use Ubuntu, not so much because it's easier to
use, but  imho because it's EU based.
Google the amount of complaints re. the latest Ubuntu release.
Particularly wireless.
http://www.linux.ie/lists/pipermail/ilug/2008-November/100179.html
> Now, if you tell me, Fedora is not for new users, then my apologies for
> opening this thread. I have nothing to say. I´ll change my strategy to
> promoting Fedora (I´ll encouarage only advanced Linux users to try
> Fedora, not a new user).

Fedora is for All Users, and like anything.
It takes getting used to, that is where the Ambassador comes in,
with a printed list of where to get help.
> At last, I just want to know, can anyone please tell me, why did I open
> this thread? I am giving the answer, it´s so simple, because I love
> Fedora, I want to promote Fedora in wider public of the world. And I
> want to see, other people is using Fedora. But amximum of yours
> impression is, I want to break Fedora´s goal. Please, open your mind.
> Try to understand. I have my study, I have my work. I don´t have any
> reasons to arguing with you.

I fully understand your love for Fedora it can be seen.
I too in school, have given Fedora 10 media to students.
They in many cases have never heard of Linux.
But one of the five, that got media is now dual-booting with Vista.
My tutor is now using FEL, and another tutor is interested.
These have been breastfed on Proprietary O.S.

Frank

Fedora 11: What do we expect?

[Angel]

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
> Not closed-source, but patented.
> There is a fundamental difference between:
> O.S.S. and F.O.S.S.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_software#Open_source_software_vs._f...

I apologies for the mistake. I meant patented software here.
> 3: refer 1:
> Most EU citizens will use Ubuntu, not so much because it's easier to
> use, but  imho because it's EU based.
> Google the amount of complaints re. the latest Ubuntu release.
> Particularly wireless.
> http://www.linux.ie/lists/pipermail/ilug/2008-November/100179.html

Nop. People are using Ubuntu from all over the world. And that´s why Ubuntu
is most popular.
> > Now, if you tell me, Fedora is not for new users, then my apologies for
> > opening this thread. I have nothing to say. I´ll change my strategy to
> > promoting Fedora (I´ll encouarage only advanced Linux users to try
> > Fedora, not a new user).
>
> Fedora is for All Users, and like anything.
> It takes getting used to, that is where the Ambassador comes in,
> with a printed list of where to get help.

Yes. Ofcourse Ambassadors are helping users. But just think, Ubuntu (October
20, 2004) is a new distro then Fedora. But it already passed everyone by in
users and also popularity.
> > At last, I just want to know, can anyone please tell me, why did I open
> > this thread? I am giving the answer, it´s so simple, because I love
> > Fedora, I want to promote Fedora in wider public of the world. And I
> > want to see, other people is using Fedora. But amximum of yours
> > impression is, I want to break Fedora´s goal. Please, open your mind.
> > Try to understand. I have my study, I have my work. I don´t have any
> > reasons to arguing with you.
>
> I fully understand your love for Fedora it can be seen.
> I too in school, have given Fedora 10 media to students.
> They in many cases have never heard of Linux.
> But one of the five, that got media is now dual-booting with Vista.
> My tutor is now using FEL, and another tutor is interested.
> These have been breastfed on Proprietary O.S.

My whole family is using Fedora now. Also my many friends. About 15 days
ago, I have distributed 100 free Fedora DVD (
http://angel.linux.org.bd/2009/01/22/fedora-infinity-day-2009/) here in
Bangladesh.
> > I am using Fedora from the beginning of  the Fedora Core. Everything is
> > easy for me. But think about a Windows User, who wants to switch to
> > Linux, can you please tell me, why he will use Fedora instead of Ubuntu?
> > In Ubuntu he can easily enable the close source repo, he can easily
> > install all kind of multimedia software, he can easily install
> > nvidia/ati driver. He can do this thing graphically, and anyone can
> > easily do it. But in case of Fedora, he need to googleing to install
> > close source software, as well as, codecs and other drivers. Now tell
> > me, why he will use Fedora instead of Ubuntu, as Ubuntu is also an Open
> > Source and Linux Operating System? Why? Because of free and freedom?
> > Nop. Ubuntu is also free.
>
> 2:
> Refer:
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2009-February/msg000...

Fedora = USA Based. (patented Software inforce), this law can stop USA
people (also other country who are following USA) to use Ubuntu, you can
tell them to use Fedora. But not the whole world.

And why you are bothering about patented software? I didnt tell Fedora must
need to include patented software. *I just said, we need a easiest solution
(i meant a GUI, so anyone can do it). What´s the problem, if developer can
get a GUI solution of it?* Why you all are yelling about this? By making it
easy we are not encouraging people to use petented software. If you think
this is, then listen, you can´t push people to use Fedora. Give this
feature, then people will come to try it. But now people are scaring to try
it. So which one is better for promoting Fedora?

Fedora 11: What do we expect?

[Joerg Simon]

Please move further discussions to this topic to the fedora-marketing-list, we 
do not want continue with this multiple crosspostings!

Thanks Joerg

Fedora 11: What do we expect?

[Chitlesh GOORAH]

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Frank Murphy wrote:
> My tutor is now using FEL, and another tutor is interested.

Hello Frank,

I've booked some timeslots to spend on lowering any difficult barrier
for end-users to switch to FEL-11.

can you give me some feedbacks about
- your difficulties in promoting FEL in your surroundings
- what your tutors thinks about FEL and what is lacking
- which field of electronics they use FEL (analog, digital, mixed, pcb, ..) ?
- your city and country
- any relevant to FEL

thank you.

Chitlesh

Fedora 11: What do we expect?

[Ankur Sinha]

On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 13:40 +0100, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Frank Murphy wrote:
> > My tutor is now using FEL, and another tutor is interested.
>
> Hello Frank,
>
> I've booked some timeslots to spend on lowering any difficult barrier
> for end-users to switch to FEL-11.
>
> can you give me some feedbacks about
> your difficulties in promoting FEL in your surroundings
> what your tutors thinks about FEL and what is lacking
> which field of electronics they use FEL (analog, digital, mixed, pcb, ..) ?
> your city and country
> any relevant to FEL
>
> thank you.
>
> Chitlesh
>
> --
> Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list

hi Chitesh,

I wasn't really aware of the FEL, (since it isn't my stream). Now that
I've read up the brochures etc. on your page, I think Ill introduce FEL
to the electronics related depts here at college and see what they have
to say about it.

regards,

Ankur

Fedora 11: What do we expect?

[Frank Murphy]

Md. Sabrul Jamil wrote:
> I am wondering, how Ubuntu make this third-party repo and packages
> installation easier. If they can, why we can´t?

Basically Law.
Fedora = USA Based. (patented Software inforce)
Ubuntu = EU Based (Illegal to patent software)

Frank

Fedora 11: What do we expect?

[Robert Scheck]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009, Md. Sabrul Jamil wrote:
> What do you expect his reply when someone from project says him ?You're not
> the first one to make these suggestions. Parroting them like a broken record
> isn't going to change any of the above. Sorry.?

Did I expect anything else in [1] rather possibly not blaming the Fedora
Project for something which the Fedora Project can't not really take care
of and for just doing "the right thing" when acting as ambassador? I tried
to clarify a wrong situation which should be known to an ambassador. To be
honest, I wasn't expecting any reply at all.

If you don't like my words, simply delete my e-mails silently. Thank you.
> Dont you think, his sentence is also as hard as his?

I didn't get this sentence, but it doesn't solve this problem: I just was
thinking, that he maybe had choosen the wrong or too hard words. And such
things can easily happen. Please do not interpret something else, which I
did not say.
> I am wondering, how Ubuntu make this third-party repo and packages
> installation easier. If they can, why we can?t?

Looks like you are lacking legal information and basics. As now several
times pointed out by e.g. Frank Murphy [2], it's a legal thing.

Tom maybe wants to correct me here, but if I got him right in the legal
discussion last year on FOSDEM, we can't put a red (or a blue) button into
Fedora pointing to e.g. RPM Fusion or another third-party repository which
offers proprietary software. Shipping such a button offering the user maybe
illegal or just legally questionable software is something where Red Hat
can be made legally total responsible for. That's maybe something hard to
understand depending on local and regionals laws and/or licensings, yes.

A real-life example for that are the packages "pgadmin3" and "libdvdcss".
First one, pgadmin3 is licensed under "Artistic 1.0" which is legally
questionable in the US, in Europe there seems to be no problem, in Asia
there seems to be none as well. Fedora doesn't ship pgadmin3 any longer, it
is included in RPM Fusions' non-free repository. When looking to package
"libdvdcss", the second one, it is not allowed in the US and even legally
questionable even in Europe (thus RPM Fusion is not shipping it at all),
but if I'm aware about that correctly, it isn't a problem in Asia.

Fedora has to follow US-laws as Red Hat can be made responsible for every
action. Ubuntu is able to follow European laws, as Canonical [3] is located
in Great Britain (Isle of Man). Unluckily European laws seem to be at that
point more relaxed compared with the US ones, which makes Ubuntu solving
such issues more easily. In times, where SuSE Linux was located in Germany,
they also had no problem to ship proprietary software. Once they have been
bought by Novell, they have been legally relocated to the US and now have
really exactly the same legal problems as Fedora. As far as I can see in
their products, they've removed anything proprietary (depends on the view,
of course).

Thus Ubuntu can, we can't (Tom, please correct me, if I did tell something
wrong - hopefully not).
> Here I have to remind you one thing, did he say to add close source packages
> with Fedora? No he didn?t say it, he just wanted a easier solution of this.
> What Fedora really needs to do is find a legal way to make all of these
> things easier.

Yes, but according the discussion I participated last year during FOSDEM
with Tom, that's a hard thing and Fedora can't ship a direct link to e.g.
RPM Fusion or another repository shipping maybe legally questionable stuff.
And if there would be more easy ways, I'm pretty sure, Fedora would have
taken them already. The issue didn't came up with Fedora 9 or 10, it is an
older thing known inside in Fedora (at least it should be known).

This thread is not to be continued on Fedora Ambassadors or at Fedora
Marketing. If anything else should come up, please discuss this on the
Fedora legal list [4].

[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2009-February/msg000...
[2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2009-February/msg000...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_Ltd.
[4] https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-legal-list

Greetings,
  Robert