Discussion: revoking ambassador status

[Jiri Eischmann]

Hi,
yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
properly and eventually make a decision.

You can find more in this ticket:
https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358

Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
solutions. You input is welcome.

Jiri

[Danishka Navin]

How do we define an active ambassador?
by number of mails hitting the list? number of events? IRC meetings?

They should not permanently removed from the system but some where others
can find those information and invite them back to the project.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> Hi,
> yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> properly and eventually make a decision.
>
> You can find more in this ticket:
> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
>
> Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> solutions. You input is welcome.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Danishka Navin]

First of all you should approach them and try to get their service back to
the project.
This should done by some one who can listen and understand issues of other
contributors.

This should be a process of inviting them back to the project instead of
removing them.
We can trigger annual (or any periodical mail) to encouraging them to join
back to the project.
In the same mail you can mention the steps to be required to officially
sign-out.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Danishka Navin  wrote:
> How do we define an active ambassador?
> by number of mails hitting the list? number of events? IRC meetings?
>
> They should not permanently removed from the system but some where others
> can find those information and invite them back to the project.
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > Hi,
> > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > properly and eventually make a decision.
> >
> > You can find more in this ticket:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> >
> > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > solutions. You input is welcome.
> >
> > Jiri
> >
> > --
> > ambassadors mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
> --
> Danishka Navin
> http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com
> http://twitter.com/danishkanavin
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/danishkanavin/

[Nikos Roussos]

Let's keep the discussion on the ticket, as Jiri suggested :)

[Jukka Palander, IT Development Spain]

Hmmmm. excatly.

Let's say me!

I do no do IRQ-meetings, I hardly ever write into the list. I do not go
to the events (because there are NONE in the Southern Spain and it is
far too expensive to go elsewhere). I do not create events because I do
not have money or time to do it.  ....and I do not do "this and that".

What I do, is; I use Fedora every day, I install it in every place where
I can (and see it possible/feasable/....) and I do spread Fedora
media/word/information all over the places where I go. Sometimes I go to
the business meeting presenting completely something else and having
Fedora polo on and I may "accidently" test the Fedora website when
testing the Internet connection and whatever pops into my mind.... and
then sometimes I am known as a "linux man". People say "hey, there comes
the linux man -please behave now....". Then I try to explain "no, not
really a linux guy. rather I see myself as a FOSS man, standardization
man, keep things simple and effective man, a Fedora man"..

I must be a baaaaad and inactive person. Maybe not an Ambassador after all?

--
Jukka

On 25/02/14 11:25, Danishka Navin wrote:
> How do we define an active ambassador?
> by number of mails hitting the list? number of events? IRC meetings?
>
> They should not permanently removed from the system but some where others
> can find those information and invite them back to the project.
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > Hi,
> > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > properly and eventually make a decision.
> >
> > You can find more in this ticket:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> >
> > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > solutions. You input is welcome.
> >
> > Jiri
> >
> > --
> > ambassadors mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Jatin khatri]

On Thursday 27 February 2014 06:56 PM, Jukka Palander wrote:
> Hmmmm. excatly.
>
> Let's say me!
>
> I do no do IRQ-meetings, I hardly ever write into the list. I do not go
> to the events (because there are NONE in the Southern Spain and it is
> far too expensive to go elsewhere). I do not create events because I do
> not have money or time to do it.  ....and I do not do "this and that".

same here with me... I do send medias to local school or education 
institutions, who directly contacting me instead of using free media 
track..!!!

will you not consider me as an active member ?????

Warm Regards

[Tony Dyer]

Now that’s a man after my own heart. We are all different and walk the talk with our own swagger. We can be loud and brash or quite and gentle. But the message imparted needs to be what is listen to. If you want clones say so. Me, I’m different, not better, nor worse just different trying to make things better in my own fashion. Let’s accept diversity.

Tony Dyer
On 27 Feb 2014, at 13:52, Jkhatri  wrote:
> On Thursday 27 February 2014 06:56 PM, Jukka Palander wrote:
> > Hmmmm. excatly.
> >
> > Let's say me!
> >
> > I do no do IRQ-meetings, I hardly ever write into the list. I do not go
> > to the events (because there are NONE in the Southern Spain and it is
> > far too expensive to go elsewhere). I do not create events because I do
> > not have money or time to do it.  ....and I do not do "this and that".
>
> same here with me... I do send medias to local school or education institutions, who directly contacting me instead of using free media track..!!!
>
> will you not consider me as an active member ?????
>
> Warm Regards
>
> -- 
> */
> Jatin Khatri
> RHCSA RHCE CCNA
> www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Jatin
> Phone [phone]
> Save Paper, Save Environment.**
> (Plant at least one tree in your life and nurture it !!!)
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[inode0]

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Jukka Palander  wrote:
> Hmmmm. excatly.
>
> Let's say me!
>
> I do no do IRQ-meetings, I hardly ever write into the list. I do not go
> to the events (because there are NONE in the Southern Spain and it is
> far too expensive to go elsewhere). I do not create events because I do
> not have money or time to do it.  ....and I do not do "this and that".
>
> What I do, is; I use Fedora every day, I install it in every place where
> I can (and see it possible/feasable/....) and I do spread Fedora
> media/word/information all over the places where I go. Sometimes I go to
> the business meeting presenting completely something else and having
> Fedora polo on and I may "accidently" test the Fedora website when
> testing the Internet connection and whatever pops into my mind.... and
> then sometimes I am known as a "linux man". People say "hey, there comes
> the linux man -please behave now....". Then I try to explain "no, not
> really a linux guy. rather I see myself as a FOSS man, standardization
> man, keep things simple and effective man, a Fedora man"..
>
> I must be a baaaaad and inactive person. Maybe not an Ambassador after all?

Hi Jukka,

Seems every few years we go down this path and it upsets a lot of
people and there is a lot of debate over defining what makes someone
active or inactive and it hasn't ever resulted in doing anything
beyond upsetting people that I can recall. Even in areas where
activity is fairly easy to define I don't know of any other group that
kicks people out for taking a break and not causing trouble.

I can't imagine how anything good will come from pitting one group
against another which will be what happens when a group of ambassadors
in one country/region decide to try to remove the membership of other
local ambassadors.

Be friends. When some ambassadors stop being active however you define
that you can step in and fill the void.

John

[Jiri Eischmann]

inode0 píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 07:52 -0600:
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Jukka Palander  wrote:
> > Hmmmm. excatly.
> >
> > Let's say me!
> >
> > I do no do IRQ-meetings, I hardly ever write into the list. I do not go
> > to the events (because there are NONE in the Southern Spain and it is
> > far too expensive to go elsewhere). I do not create events because I do
> > not have money or time to do it.  ....and I do not do "this and that".
> >
> > What I do, is; I use Fedora every day, I install it in every place where
> > I can (and see it possible/feasable/....) and I do spread Fedora
> > media/word/information all over the places where I go. Sometimes I go to
> > the business meeting presenting completely something else and having
> > Fedora polo on and I may "accidently" test the Fedora website when
> > testing the Internet connection and whatever pops into my mind.... and
> > then sometimes I am known as a "linux man". People say "hey, there comes
> > the linux man -please behave now....". Then I try to explain "no, not
> > really a linux guy. rather I see myself as a FOSS man, standardization
> > man, keep things simple and effective man, a Fedora man"..
> >
> > I must be a baaaaad and inactive person. Maybe not an Ambassador after all?
>
> Hi Jukka,
>
> Seems every few years we go down this path and it upsets a lot of
> people and there is a lot of debate over defining what makes someone
> active or inactive and it hasn't ever resulted in doing anything
> beyond upsetting people that I can recall. Even in areas where
> activity is fairly easy to define I don't know of any other group that
> kicks people out for taking a break and not causing trouble.
>
> I can't imagine how anything good will come from pitting one group
> against another which will be what happens when a group of ambassadors
> in one country/region decide to try to remove the membership of other
> local ambassadors.
>
> Be friends. When some ambassadors stop being active however you define
> that you can step in and fill the void.

Hi John,
I was a big opponent of removing ambassadors in the past. Or more
precisely I didn't think it was worth the hassle.
But after hearing more and more complaints from ambassadors about the
issue and with the experience that this issue is brought up at pretty
much every FUDCon/Flock or other gathering of ambassadors I think it at
least needs to be discussed broadly.

Originally, we wanted to use some automated mechanism such as checking
the last time stamp when the ambassador logged into FAS. Because if you
haven't logged into FAS for, say, 2 years you're not probably around the
project any more. If you met such a condition all that would happen to
you would be an "inactive" flag that would remove you from the public
list of ambassadors, but you would remain a member of the ambassadors
group, and you could change the flag back to "active" any time.
Unfortunately our infra don't log such information.

The regular password change request is also a good idea. It actually
served the purpose quite well last time we used it because it cut off
ambassadors who didn't care about the project enough just to change
their passwords. And that's the kind of members we're aiming at with the
proposal. No one beyond that. No one shouldn't be removed and ideally
even nominated for removal because he/she hasn't organized enough
events, sent enough messages to mailing lists, participated in enough
IRC meetings.

Jiri

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 03:33:00PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> inode0 píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 07:52 -0600:
> > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Jukka Palander  wrote:
>
> Originally, we wanted to use some automated mechanism such as checking
> the last time stamp when the ambassador logged into FAS. Because if you
> haven't logged into FAS for, say, 2 years you're not probably around the
> project any more. If you met such a condition all that would happen to
> you would be an "inactive" flag that would remove you from the public
> list of ambassadors, but you would remain a member of the ambassadors
> group, and you could change the flag back to "active" any time.
> Unfortunately our infra don't log such information.

That's actually not true, we do keep info on what someone last logged into FAS.

Maybe I could gather some numbers a little like I did for packagers:
http://blog.pingoured.fr/index.php?post/2013/12/18/Fedora-packagers-activity

I could use datagrepper and FAS and that should be pretty simple to do :)

Regards,
Pierre

[Jiri Eischmann]

Pierre-Yves Chibon píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 15:57 +0100:
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 03:33:00PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > inode0 píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 07:52 -0600:
> > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Jukka Palander  wrote:
> >
> > Originally, we wanted to use some automated mechanism such as checking
> > the last time stamp when the ambassador logged into FAS. Because if you
> > haven't logged into FAS for, say, 2 years you're not probably around the
> > project any more. If you met such a condition all that would happen to
> > you would be an "inactive" flag that would remove you from the public
> > list of ambassadors, but you would remain a member of the ambassadors
> > group, and you could change the flag back to "active" any time.
> > Unfortunately our infra don't log such information.
>
> That's actually not true, we do keep info on what someone last logged into FAS.
>
> Maybe I could gather some numbers a little like I did for packagers:
> http://blog.pingoured.fr/index.php?post/2013/12/18/Fedora-packagers-activity
>
> I could use datagrepper and FAS and that should be pretty simple to do :)

That would be splendid!
I spoke with Patrick about it he told me the infra didn't keep such
info.

IMHO the cleanest solution would be to notify people who haven't logged
in for more than 2 years (or any other period we agree on) and tell them
they're currently flagged as inactive, but they can easily change in
their FAS account administration. They wouldn't lose the membership,
they would just not be listed in the public list, and they would be just
a few clicks from being considered active again.
We would avoid any process hassle, fights, and heated blood.

Jiri

[Iosif Bancioiu]

I agree :)
On 27 Feb 2014 18:28, "Jiri Eischmann"  wrote:
> Pierre-Yves Chibon píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 15:57 +0100:
> > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 03:33:00PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > inode0 píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 07:52 -0600:
> > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Jukka Palander
>
> wrote:
> > > Originally, we wanted to use some automated mechanism such as checking
> > > the last time stamp when the ambassador logged into FAS. Because if you
> > > haven't logged into FAS for, say, 2 years you're not probably around
>
> the
> > > project any more. If you met such a condition all that would happen to
> > > you would be an "inactive" flag that would remove you from the public
> > > list of ambassadors, but you would remain a member of the ambassadors
> > > group, and you could change the flag back to "active" any time.
> > > Unfortunately our infra don't log such information.
> >
> > That's actually not true, we do keep info on what someone last logged
>
> into FAS.
> > Maybe I could gather some numbers a little like I did for packagers:
>
> http://blog.pingoured.fr/index.php?post/2013/12/18/Fedora-packagers-activity
> > I could use datagrepper and FAS and that should be pretty simple to do :)
>
> That would be splendid!
> I spoke with Patrick about it he told me the infra didn't keep such
> info.
>
> IMHO the cleanest solution would be to notify people who haven't logged
> in for more than 2 years (or any other period we agree on) and tell them
> they're currently flagged as inactive, but they can easily change in
> their FAS account administration. They wouldn't lose the membership,
> they would just not be listed in the public list, and they would be just
> a few clicks from being considered active again.
> We would avoid any process hassle, fights, and heated blood.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Tristan Santore]

On 27/02/14 16:28, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> Pierre-Yves Chibon píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 15:57 +0100:
> > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 03:33:00PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > inode0 píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 07:52 -0600:
> > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Jukka Palander  wrote:
> > >
> > > Originally, we wanted to use some automated mechanism such as checking
> > > the last time stamp when the ambassador logged into FAS. Because if you
> > > haven't logged into FAS for, say, 2 years you're not probably around the
> > > project any more. If you met such a condition all that would happen to
> > > you would be an "inactive" flag that would remove you from the public
> > > list of ambassadors, but you would remain a member of the ambassadors
> > > group, and you could change the flag back to "active" any time.
> > > Unfortunately our infra don't log such information.
> >
> > That's actually not true, we do keep info on what someone last logged into FAS.
> >
> > Maybe I could gather some numbers a little like I did for packagers:
> > http://blog.pingoured.fr/index.php?post/2013/12/18/Fedora-packagers-activity
> >
> > I could use datagrepper and FAS and that should be pretty simple to do :)
>
> That would be splendid!
> I spoke with Patrick about it he told me the infra didn't keep such
> info.
>
> IMHO the cleanest solution would be to notify people who haven't logged
> in for more than 2 years (or any other period we agree on) and tell them
> they're currently flagged as inactive, but they can easily change in
> their FAS account administration. They wouldn't lose the membership,
> they would just not be listed in the public list, and they would be just
> a few clicks from being considered active again.
> We would avoid any process hassle, fights, and heated blood.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

I did read your ticket, I had to login for that one!
Question is did you read my reply properly. SHOULD had a real meaning there.
Also, this discussion has come up for years and years. Some FAS accounts 
are already set as inactive under certain conditions. I made sure to 
check with Infra before I wrote a reply.

Also, my last email was strongly worded, because some imbecile 
complained about another ambassadors activity or lack thereof and 
questioning why he was using another distribution.

Quite frankly, either which is none of the persons businesses and not a 
good way to encourage ambassador activities.

So, I would like to know, where you think I have twisted "claims", I 
actually quoted a bit of your ticket too.

Regards,

Tristan

[Robert Mayr]

2014-02-27 17:40 GMT+01:00 Tristan Santore
:
> I did read your ticket, I had to login for that one!
> Question is did you read my reply properly. SHOULD had a real meaning there.
> Also, this discussion has come up for years and years. Some FAS accounts are
> already set as inactive under certain conditions. I made sure to check with
> Infra before I wrote a reply.
>
> Also, my last email was strongly worded, because some imbecile complained
> about another ambassadors activity or lack thereof and questioning why he
> was using another distribution.
>
> Quite frankly, either which is none of the persons businesses and not a good
> way to encourage ambassador activities.
>
> So, I would like to know, where you think I have twisted "claims", I
> actually quoted a bit of your ticket too.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tristan

Are you sure you read it properly? I think not, and I don't understand
why you are throwing around with these rough statements, which are
offending people.
The purpose of this ticket (and discussion) is to get done with this
topic one time for all, asking also for inputs which could help
figuring it out the best way. If you think the ticket is against you
I'm sorry, or why do you use words as " because some imbecile
complained" ??
Please calm down, I don't want to read such offending words here, not
against FAmSCo and not against anyone within the Fedora Project. Why
don't you propose a solution or a better process instead?
Regards.

[Tristan Santore]

On 27/02/14 17:47, Robert Mayr wrote:
> 2014-02-27 17:40 GMT+01:00 Tristan Santore
> :
> > I did read your ticket, I had to login for that one!
> > Question is did you read my reply properly. SHOULD had a real meaning there.
> > Also, this discussion has come up for years and years. Some FAS accounts are
> > already set as inactive under certain conditions. I made sure to check with
> > Infra before I wrote a reply.
> >
> > Also, my last email was strongly worded, because some imbecile complained
> > about another ambassadors activity or lack thereof and questioning why he
> > was using another distribution.
> >
> > Quite frankly, either which is none of the persons businesses and not a good
> > way to encourage ambassador activities.
> >
> > So, I would like to know, where you think I have twisted "claims", I
> > actually quoted a bit of your ticket too.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Tristan
>
> Are you sure you read it properly? I think not, and I don't understand
> why you are throwing around with these rough statements, which are
> offending people.
> The purpose of this ticket (and discussion) is to get done with this
> topic one time for all, asking also for inputs which could help
> figuring it out the best way. If you think the ticket is against you
> I'm sorry, or why do you use words as " because some imbecile
> complained" ??
> Please calm down, I don't want to read such offending words here, not
> against FAmSCo and not against anyone within the Fedora Project. Why
> don't you propose a solution or a better process instead?
> Regards.

If you complain about a volunteer, which is what being a Fedora 
Ambassador is
, that he/she is not doing enough, when they have their Thesis to write, 
because that is what will feed them for the rest of their lives, 
allowing them to be a Fedora Ambassador in the first place, nevermind 
the fact that you are being not only unethical, but also beyond the 
acceptable conduct as an ambassador, then I think you are being an 
imbecile. Also, as imbecile is not a swear word, I do not understand how 
you could be offended by that statement, unless of course you were the 
person having a moan at the individual involved.

Also,I have proposed a solution, see my last email. There clearly is an 
issue in Brazil, which might also relate to other countries.

We do have a motto in Fedora. Freedom, Friends, Features, First.

Now, in my book, if you manage to annoy people that much, that they 
become inactive, or you hassle them to be more active, then you are 
violating two of our core principals, namely Freedom and Friends.

So, I will repeat! We need to substantiate why people have become 
inactive amongst the Fedora Ambassador Programme. So, contact those 
people in a friendly manner, asking them if they would mind 
participating in an anonymous survey, as to why they are no longer 
active in the ambassadors group. I suggest a Fedora Election based 
system, with a questionnaire. This will not only save the Mentors and 
FAMSCO people from having to deal with 100s of cases of inactive 
members, but would also get to the bottom of the issue.

Using pesticide on a field that has no pests, is a bit silly. So, find 
out what is wrong. If 35 out of 50 people become inactive and the 
remainder becomes disgruntled, there clearly is an issue there. And I am 
not only talking about the people being inactive here! Why anyone would 
take all of this as serious as that, is quite frankly beyond me, but 
also might explain why the other 35 are inactive in the first place 
(just a thought).

In other words, without quantification and qualification of the 
perceived issues, we will never know in the first place! So make a 
survey! How else are you going to make the ambassadors programme better ?

Appeasing the few and disgruntling the many is not a good method in 
increasing Fedora Contributor numbers.

I think Pierre makes a valid point, when he mentions different cultural 
backgrounds. So, maybe it should be made clear that people should not 
take this that serious and have FUN (remember now: Freedom and Friends)! 
You can have plenty of aggro doing your day job or stress from your 
education. Not many people will be turned on by hassle coming from their 
leisurely activities.

Regards,

Tristan

[Luis Enrique Bazán De León]

please analyze either the ticket:

If the ambassador violated the code of conduct == revoke

ambassador inactive for 2, 3, 4 years and in the FAS

account estatus == inactive

Agreement contributor: == unsigned

This user has no interest in being part of the community for a long time?
or yes?

_____________________________________________________________________

This ticket is based on a discussion from the last FAmSCo meeting:

The basic question is if the ambassador membership is for lifetime or not.
If we agree it's not, we should have some mechanism to remove ambassadors.

*What cases should this cover?*

1. ambassadors who has extensively violated Fedora Code of Conduct and
   our values.

1. ambassadors who hasn't been responsive for a long time and are no
   longer connected to the Project in any way.

2014-02-27 13:11 GMT-05:00 Tristan Santore <
[e-mail]>:
> On 27/02/14 17:47, Robert Mayr wrote:
> > 2014-02-27 17:40 GMT+01:00 Tristan Santore
> > :
> > > I did read your ticket, I had to login for that one!
> > > Question is did you read my reply properly. SHOULD had a real meaning
> > > there.
> > > Also, this discussion has come up for years and years. Some FAS accounts
> > > are
> > > already set as inactive under certain conditions. I made sure to check
> > > with
> > > Infra before I wrote a reply.
> > >
> > > Also, my last email was strongly worded, because some imbecile complained
> > > about another ambassadors activity or lack thereof and questioning why he
> > > was using another distribution.
> > >
> > > Quite frankly, either which is none of the persons businesses and not a
> > > good
> > > way to encourage ambassador activities.
> > >
> > > So, I would like to know, where you think I have twisted "claims", I
> > > actually quoted a bit of your ticket too.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Tristan
> >
> > Are you sure you read it properly? I think not, and I don't understand
> > why you are throwing around with these rough statements, which are
> > offending people.
> > The purpose of this ticket (and discussion) is to get done with this
> > topic one time for all, asking also for inputs which could help
> > figuring it out the best way. If you think the ticket is against you
> > I'm sorry, or why do you use words as " because some imbecile
> > complained" ??
> > Please calm down, I don't want to read such offending words here, not
> > against FAmSCo and not against anyone within the Fedora Project. Why
> > don't you propose a solution or a better process instead?
> > Regards.
> >
> > If you complain about a volunteer, which is what being a Fedora
>
> Ambassador is
> , that he/she is not doing enough, when they have their Thesis to write,
> because that is what will feed them for the rest of their lives, allowing
> them to be a Fedora Ambassador in the first place, nevermind the fact that
> you are being not only unethical, but also beyond the acceptable conduct as
> an ambassador, then I think you are being an imbecile. Also, as imbecile is
> not a swear word, I do not understand how you could be offended by that
> statement, unless of course you were the person having a moan at the
> individual involved.
>
> Also,I have proposed a solution, see my last email. There clearly is an
> issue in Brazil, which might also relate to other countries.
>
> We do have a motto in Fedora. Freedom, Friends, Features, First.
>
> Now, in my book, if you manage to annoy people that much, that they become
> inactive, or you hassle them to be more active, then you are violating two
> of our core principals, namely Freedom and Friends.
>
> So, I will repeat! We need to substantiate why people have become inactive
> amongst the Fedora Ambassador Programme. So, contact those people in a
> friendly manner, asking them if they would mind participating in an
> anonymous survey, as to why they are no longer active in the ambassadors
> group. I suggest a Fedora Election based system, with a questionnaire. This
> will not only save the Mentors and FAMSCO people from having to deal with
> 100s of cases of inactive members, but would also get to the bottom of the
> issue.
>
> Using pesticide on a field that has no pests, is a bit silly. So, find out
> what is wrong. If 35 out of 50 people become inactive and the remainder
> becomes disgruntled, there clearly is an issue there. And I am not only
> talking about the people being inactive here! Why anyone would take all of
> this as serious as that, is quite frankly beyond me, but also might explain
> why the other 35 are inactive in the first place (just a thought).
>
> In other words, without quantification and qualification of the perceived
> issues, we will never know in the first place! So make a survey! How else
> are you going to make the ambassadors programme better ?
>
> Appeasing the few and disgruntling the many is not a good method in
> increasing Fedora Contributor numbers.
>
> I think Pierre makes a valid point, when he mentions different cultural
> backgrounds. So, maybe it should be made clear that people should not take
> this that serious and have FUN (remember now: Freedom and Friends)! You can
> have plenty of aggro doing your day job or stress from your education. Not
> many people will be turned on by hassle coming from their leisurely
> activities.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tristan
>
> --
>
> Tristan Santore BSc MBCS
> TS4523-RIPE
> Network and Infrastructure Operations
> InterNexusConnect
> Mobile [phone]
> [e-mail]
>
> Former Thawte Notary
> (Please note: Thawte has closed its WoT programme down,
> and I am therefore no longer able to accredit trust)
>
> For Fedora related issues, please email me at:
> [e-mail]
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[inode0]

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Luis Enrique Bazán De León
 wrote:
> please analyze either the ticket:
>
> If the ambassador violated the code of conduct == revoke
>
> ambassador inactive for 2, 3, 4 years and in the FAS
>
> account estatus == inactive
>
> Agreement contributor: == unsigned
>
> This user has no interest in being part of the community for a long time? or
> yes?
>
> This ticket is based on a discussion from the last FAmSCo meeting:
>
> The basic question is if the ambassador membership is for lifetime or not.
> If we agree it's not, we should have some mechanism to remove ambassadors.
>
> What cases should this cover?
>
> ambassadors who has extensively violated Fedora Code of Conduct and our
> values.
>
> ambassadors who hasn't been responsive for a long time and are no longer
> connected to the Project in any way.

We don't need a broad discussion about Code of Conduct violations and
we really don't need a broad discussion about periodically cleaning up
accounts as has been done in the past.

What we need a broad discussion about is whether it is a good idea to
ask ambassadors to basically file complaints against other ambassadors
for nothing more than inactivity and whether FAmSCo or regional groups
should endorse this sort of arrangement. And I think on this point I
agree with Tristan. If someone came to me in a FAmNA meeting to file
such an action against an inactive ambassador I would say I have more
reason to expel the person wasting my time with this than I do the
inactive ambassador.

John

[Robert Mayr]

Il 27/feb/2014 19:11 "Tristan Santore" <
[e-mail]> ha scritto:
> If you complain about a volunteer, which is what being a Fedora

Ambassador is
> , that he/she is not doing enough, when they have their Thesis to write,

because that is what will feed them for the rest of their lives, allowing
them to be a Fedora Ambassador in the first place, nevermind the fact that
you are being not only unethical, but also beyond the acceptable conduct as
an ambassador, then I think you are being an imbecile. Also, as imbecile is
not a swear word, I do not understand how you could be offended by that
statement, unless of course you were the person having a moan at the
individual involved.
> Also,I have proposed a solution, see my last email. There clearly is an

issue in Brazil, which might also relate to other countries.
> We do have a motto in Fedora. Freedom, Friends, Features, First.
>
> Now, in my book, if you manage to annoy people that much, that they

become inactive, or you hassle them to be more active, then you are
violating two of our core principals, namely Freedom and Friends.
> So, I will repeat! We need to substantiate why people have become

inactive amongst the Fedora Ambassador Programme. So, contact those people
in a friendly manner, asking them if they would mind participating in an
anonymous survey, as to why they are no longer active in the ambassadors
group. I suggest a Fedora Election based system, with a questionnaire. This
will not only save the Mentors and FAMSCO people from having to deal with
100s of cases of inactive members, but would also get to the bottom of the
issue.
> Using pesticide on a field that has no pests, is a bit silly. So, find

out what is wrong. If 35 out of 50 people become inactive and the remainder
becomes disgruntled, there clearly is an issue there. And I am not only
talking about the people being inactive here! Why anyone would take all of
this as serious as that, is quite frankly beyond me, but also might explain
why the other 35 are inactive in the first place (just a thought).
> In other words, without quantification and qualification of the perceived

issues, we will never know in the first place! So make a survey! How else
are you going to make the ambassadors programme better ?
> Appeasing the few and disgruntling the many is not a good method in

increasing Fedora Contributor numbers.
> I think Pierre makes a valid point, when he mentions different cultural

backgrounds. So, maybe it should be made clear that people should not take
this that serious and have FUN (remember now: Freedom and Friends)! You can
have plenty of aggro doing your day job or stress from your education. Not
many people will be turned on by hassle coming from their leisurely
activities.
> Regards,
>
> Tristan

Ok so you think I'm the imbecile and probably also unethical and beyond the
conduct of an ambassador.
I don't have nothing against anyone, I accept different opinions if they
are kept within the verbal limits.
You mentioned our 4 foundations, and that is why I'm here, but I don't
acccept being offended by anyone.

Robert Mayr
(robyduck)

[Jiri Eischmann]

Tristan Santore píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 16:40 +0000:
> On 27/02/14 16:28, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > Pierre-Yves Chibon píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 15:57 +0100:
> > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 03:33:00PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > > inode0 píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 07:52 -0600:
> > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Jukka Palander  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Originally, we wanted to use some automated mechanism such as checking
> > > > the last time stamp when the ambassador logged into FAS. Because if you
> > > > haven't logged into FAS for, say, 2 years you're not probably around the
> > > > project any more. If you met such a condition all that would happen to
> > > > you would be an "inactive" flag that would remove you from the public
> > > > list of ambassadors, but you would remain a member of the ambassadors
> > > > group, and you could change the flag back to "active" any time.
> > > > Unfortunately our infra don't log such information.
> > >
> > > That's actually not true, we do keep info on what someone last logged into FAS.
> > >
> > > Maybe I could gather some numbers a little like I did for packagers:
> > > http://blog.pingoured.fr/index.php?post/2013/12/18/Fedora-packagers-activity
> > >
> > > I could use datagrepper and FAS and that should be pretty simple to do :)
> >
> > That would be splendid!
> > I spoke with Patrick about it he told me the infra didn't keep such
> > info.
> >
> > IMHO the cleanest solution would be to notify people who haven't logged
> > in for more than 2 years (or any other period we agree on) and tell them
> > they're currently flagged as inactive, but they can easily change in
> > their FAS account administration. They wouldn't lose the membership,
> > they would just not be listed in the public list, and they would be just
> > a few clicks from being considered active again.
> > We would avoid any process hassle, fights, and heated blood.
> >
> > Jiri
> >
> > --
> > ambassadors mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
> I did read your ticket, I had to login for that one!
> Question is did you read my reply properly. SHOULD had a real meaning there.
> Also, this discussion has come up for years and years. Some FAS accounts 
> are already set as inactive under certain conditions. I made sure to 
> check with Infra before I wrote a reply.
>
> Also, my last email was strongly worded, because some imbecile 
> complained about another ambassadors activity or lack thereof and 
> questioning why he was using another distribution.
>
> Quite frankly, either which is none of the persons businesses and not a 
> good way to encourage ambassador activities.
>
> So, I would like to know, where you think I have twisted "claims", I 
> actually quoted a bit of your ticket too.

You're twisting our words because you're saying or reacting to something
that is not in the proposal.
Once for all: we do NOT want to judge anyone's activity and we do NOT
want to encourage anyone to do so. The issue are not ambassadors who are
not visibly active or are not doing "enough". That's perfectly fine.
We're trying to find a solution how to clean the ambassadors group from
people who are not clearly interested in any connection with the Fedora
Project any more, who wouldn't even care if we removed them from the
group.

Based on the discussion, I think it's pretty obvious that doing it
manually by submitting requests might lead to a bad atmosphere in the
project. Mainly because it could lead to false positives and hence
offending people. So we should keep looking for a solution which is
non-invasive and based on the FAS data. That's I guess the most
important outcome from the discussion so far.

Jiri

[Tristan Santore]

On 27/02/14 18:51, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> Tristan Santore píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 16:40 +0000:
> > On 27/02/14 16:28, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > Pierre-Yves Chibon píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 15:57 +0100:
> > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 03:33:00PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > > > inode0 píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 07:52 -0600:
> > > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Jukka Palander  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Originally, we wanted to use some automated mechanism such as checking
> > > > > the last time stamp when the ambassador logged into FAS. Because if you
> > > > > haven't logged into FAS for, say, 2 years you're not probably around the
> > > > > project any more. If you met such a condition all that would happen to
> > > > > you would be an "inactive" flag that would remove you from the public
> > > > > list of ambassadors, but you would remain a member of the ambassadors
> > > > > group, and you could change the flag back to "active" any time.
> > > > > Unfortunately our infra don't log such information.
> > > >
> > > > That's actually not true, we do keep info on what someone last logged into FAS.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe I could gather some numbers a little like I did for packagers:
> > > > http://blog.pingoured.fr/index.php?post/2013/12/18/Fedora-packagers-activity
> > > >
> > > > I could use datagrepper and FAS and that should be pretty simple to do :)
> > >
> > > That would be splendid!
> > > I spoke with Patrick about it he told me the infra didn't keep such
> > > info.
> > >
> > > IMHO the cleanest solution would be to notify people who haven't logged
> > > in for more than 2 years (or any other period we agree on) and tell them
> > > they're currently flagged as inactive, but they can easily change in
> > > their FAS account administration. They wouldn't lose the membership,
> > > they would just not be listed in the public list, and they would be just
> > > a few clicks from being considered active again.
> > > We would avoid any process hassle, fights, and heated blood.
> > >
> > > Jiri
> > >
> > > --
> > > ambassadors mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
> >
> > I did read your ticket, I had to login for that one!
> > Question is did you read my reply properly. SHOULD had a real meaning there.
> > Also, this discussion has come up for years and years. Some FAS accounts
> > are already set as inactive under certain conditions. I made sure to
> > check with Infra before I wrote a reply.
> >
> > Also, my last email was strongly worded, because some imbecile
> > complained about another ambassadors activity or lack thereof and
> > questioning why he was using another distribution.
> >
> > Quite frankly, either which is none of the persons businesses and not a
> > good way to encourage ambassador activities.
> >
> > So, I would like to know, where you think I have twisted "claims", I
> > actually quoted a bit of your ticket too.
>
> You're twisting our words because you're saying or reacting to something
> that is not in the proposal.
> Once for all: we do NOT want to judge anyone's activity and we do NOT
> want to encourage anyone to do so. The issue are not ambassadors who are
> not visibly active or are not doing "enough". That's perfectly fine.
> We're trying to find a solution how to clean the ambassadors group from
> people who are not clearly interested in any connection with the Fedora
> Project any more, who wouldn't even care if we removed them from the
> group.
>
> Based on the discussion, I think it's pretty obvious that doing it
> manually by submitting requests might lead to a bad atmosphere in the
> project. Mainly because it could lead to false positives and hence
> offending people. So we should keep looking for a solution which is
> non-invasive and based on the FAS data. That's I guess the most
> important outcome from the discussion so far.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

To quote your email:

Hi,
yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
properly and eventually make a decision.

You can find more in this ticket:
https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358

I just read the ticket with mentions two issues! And made comments to 
such effect. But again, even if somebody has been inactive for a number 
of years. Why are they inactive in the first place ?

So, how about finding out about reasons as to why people are inactive, 
instead of just cleaning them out.

There is a real issue in attracting more contributors, which will not be 
addressed by just removing the people from certain groups in fas. We 
never delete FAS accounts, so that means, it makes no real sense to even 
remove them from groups they are in, unless this is a security related 
issue. But in terms of Infra, people get emailed if their SSH key needs 
updating and if they do not reply, they are inactivated. But that is a 
totally different issue.

And to quote Inode0:

We don't need a broad discussion about Code of Conduct violations and
we really don't need a broad discussion about periodically cleaning up
accounts as has been done in the past.

So, I am clearly not the only person who has interpreted the ticket in 
that manner! Jiri, did you post the wrong ticket by accident ?

Regards,

Tristan

[Jiri Eischmann]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tristan Santore" 
To: [e-mail]
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:02:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Ambassadors] Discussion: revoking ambassador status

On 27/02/14 18:51, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> Tristan Santore píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 16:40 +0000:
> > On 27/02/14 16:28, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > Pierre-Yves Chibon píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 15:57 +0100:
> > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 03:33:00PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > > > inode0 píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 07:52 -0600:
> > > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Jukka Palander  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Originally, we wanted to use some automated mechanism such as checking
> > > > > the last time stamp when the ambassador logged into FAS. Because if you
> > > > > haven't logged into FAS for, say, 2 years you're not probably around the
> > > > > project any more. If you met such a condition all that would happen to
> > > > > you would be an "inactive" flag that would remove you from the public
> > > > > list of ambassadors, but you would remain a member of the ambassadors
> > > > > group, and you could change the flag back to "active" any time.
> > > > > Unfortunately our infra don't log such information.
> > > >
> > > > That's actually not true, we do keep info on what someone last logged into FAS.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe I could gather some numbers a little like I did for packagers:
> > > > http://blog.pingoured.fr/index.php?post/2013/12/18/Fedora-packagers-activity
> > > >
> > > > I could use datagrepper and FAS and that should be pretty simple to do :)
> > >
> > > That would be splendid!
> > > I spoke with Patrick about it he told me the infra didn't keep such
> > > info.
> > >
> > > IMHO the cleanest solution would be to notify people who haven't logged
> > > in for more than 2 years (or any other period we agree on) and tell them
> > > they're currently flagged as inactive, but they can easily change in
> > > their FAS account administration. They wouldn't lose the membership,
> > > they would just not be listed in the public list, and they would be just
> > > a few clicks from being considered active again.
> > > We would avoid any process hassle, fights, and heated blood.
> > >
> > > Jiri
> > >
> > > --
> > > ambassadors mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
> >
> > I did read your ticket, I had to login for that one!
> > Question is did you read my reply properly. SHOULD had a real meaning there.
> > Also, this discussion has come up for years and years. Some FAS accounts
> > are already set as inactive under certain conditions. I made sure to
> > check with Infra before I wrote a reply.
> >
> > Also, my last email was strongly worded, because some imbecile
> > complained about another ambassadors activity or lack thereof and
> > questioning why he was using another distribution.
> >
> > Quite frankly, either which is none of the persons businesses and not a
> > good way to encourage ambassador activities.
> >
> > So, I would like to know, where you think I have twisted "claims", I
> > actually quoted a bit of your ticket too.
>
> You're twisting our words because you're saying or reacting to something
> that is not in the proposal.
> Once for all: we do NOT want to judge anyone's activity and we do NOT
> want to encourage anyone to do so. The issue are not ambassadors who are
> not visibly active or are not doing "enough". That's perfectly fine.
> We're trying to find a solution how to clean the ambassadors group from
> people who are not clearly interested in any connection with the Fedora
> Project any more, who wouldn't even care if we removed them from the
> group.
>
> Based on the discussion, I think it's pretty obvious that doing it
> manually by submitting requests might lead to a bad atmosphere in the
> project. Mainly because it could lead to false positives and hence
> offending people. So we should keep looking for a solution which is
> non-invasive and based on the FAS data. That's I guess the most
> important outcome from the discussion so far.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

To quote your email:

Hi,
yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
properly and eventually make a decision.

You can find more in this ticket:
https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358

I just read the ticket with mentions two issues! And made comments to 
such effect. But again, even if somebody has been inactive for a number 
of years. Why are they inactive in the first place ?

So, how about finding out about reasons as to why people are inactive, 
instead of just cleaning them out.

Yeah well, FAmSCo is tries to think about initiatives to keep active ambassadors who are interested. But inactivity (by inactivity I mean leaving the project and never looking back) is a natural thing. People come and go. You can have the most superb community project on the planet and you still will have people who will leave it and never come back. Many open source projects have a mechanism how to get rid of "zombie" members and because this topic is brought up again and again I think we should have one, too.

There is a real issue in attracting more contributors, which will not be 
addressed by just removing the people from certain groups in fas. We 
never delete FAS accounts, so that means, it makes no real sense to even 
remove them from groups they are in, unless this is a security related 
issue. But in terms of Infra, people get emailed if their SSH key needs 
updating and if they do not reply, they are inactivated. But that is a 
totally different issue.

So you say that the ambassador membership is for lifetime no matter what? That's an absolutely valid opinion. I noted at the beginning of the ticket that first we have to make clear if we think that the ambassador membership is for lifetime or not. If we mostly agree it is, then we don't have to go further in the discussion about removing "zombie" members.
I personally don't think it should be or I think there should at least be active/inactive memberships. Because if we leave it the way it is now after years we can end up with a project that have 10,000 ambassadors out of which 1,000 will be somehow around still interested in the project out of which 500 will be somehow active. For an outsider, and probably not only for an outsider, but also Fedora contributors, it will be an absolute nightmare to find an ambassador who will answer their questions or help them. Yes, I'm extrapolating, we as a whole project are not close to such a situation, but it's the inevitable future and some countries are quite close to it already now.
But as I said if the predominant opinion turns out to be that ambassador membership is for lifetime with no compromises I personally will vote against any changes because the last thing FAmSCo should do is overriding opinions shared by most ambassadors.

And to quote Inode0:

We don't need a broad discussion about Code of Conduct violations and
we really don't need a broad discussion about periodically cleaning up
accounts as has been done in the past.

So, I am clearly not the only person who has interpreted the ticket in 
that manner! Jiri, did you post the wrong ticket by accident ?

Yes, a lot of other people interpreted it in the meant way. C'mon, this part of the conversation is getting ridiculous.
In the ticket, I clearly say: "this should really cover only ambassadors who are completely inactive and unresponsive. It's hard to measure ambassador's work, so if there is any sign of activity or responsiveness from the ambassador he/she shouldn't be removed."

I also made clear here in the mailing list that we don't aim at ambassadors who are just inactive. That's all from me to this particular subtopic.

Jiri

[Tony Dyer]

Why not ask. A simple question such as “Do you wish to remain a current fedora Ambassador or do you wish to be retired?”

Strikes me as being very inoffensive. Direct is often the easiest and best.

Tony Dyer

On 27 Feb 2014, at 18:51, Jiri Eischmann  wrote:
> Tristan Santore píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 16:40 +0000:
> > On 27/02/14 16:28, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > Pierre-Yves Chibon píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 15:57 +0100:
> > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 03:33:00PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > > > inode0 píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 07:52 -0600:
> > > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Jukka Palander  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Originally, we wanted to use some automated mechanism such as checking
> > > > > the last time stamp when the ambassador logged into FAS. Because if you
> > > > > haven't logged into FAS for, say, 2 years you're not probably around the
> > > > > project any more. If you met such a condition all that would happen to
> > > > > you would be an "inactive" flag that would remove you from the public
> > > > > list of ambassadors, but you would remain a member of the ambassadors
> > > > > group, and you could change the flag back to "active" any time.
> > > > > Unfortunately our infra don't log such information.
> > > >
> > > > That's actually not true, we do keep info on what someone last logged into FAS.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe I could gather some numbers a little like I did for packagers:
> > > > http://blog.pingoured.fr/index.php?post/2013/12/18/Fedora-packagers-activity
> > > >
> > > > I could use datagrepper and FAS and that should be pretty simple to do :)
> > >
> > > That would be splendid!
> > > I spoke with Patrick about it he told me the infra didn't keep such
> > > info.
> > >
> > > IMHO the cleanest solution would be to notify people who haven't logged
> > > in for more than 2 years (or any other period we agree on) and tell them
> > > they're currently flagged as inactive, but they can easily change in
> > > their FAS account administration. They wouldn't lose the membership,
> > > they would just not be listed in the public list, and they would be just
> > > a few clicks from being considered active again.
> > > We would avoid any process hassle, fights, and heated blood.
> > >
> > > Jiri
> > >
> > > --
> > > ambassadors mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
> >
> > I did read your ticket, I had to login for that one!
> > Question is did you read my reply properly. SHOULD had a real meaning there.
> > Also, this discussion has come up for years and years. Some FAS accounts 
> > are already set as inactive under certain conditions. I made sure to 
> > check with Infra before I wrote a reply.
> >
> > Also, my last email was strongly worded, because some imbecile 
> > complained about another ambassadors activity or lack thereof and 
> > questioning why he was using another distribution.
> >
> > Quite frankly, either which is none of the persons businesses and not a 
> > good way to encourage ambassador activities.
> >
> > So, I would like to know, where you think I have twisted "claims", I 
> > actually quoted a bit of your ticket too.
>
> You're twisting our words because you're saying or reacting to something
> that is not in the proposal.
> Once for all: we do NOT want to judge anyone's activity and we do NOT
> want to encourage anyone to do so. The issue are not ambassadors who are
> not visibly active or are not doing "enough". That's perfectly fine.
> We're trying to find a solution how to clean the ambassadors group from
> people who are not clearly interested in any connection with the Fedora
> Project any more, who wouldn't even care if we removed them from the
> group.
>
> Based on the discussion, I think it's pretty obvious that doing it
> manually by submitting requests might lead to a bad atmosphere in the
> project. Mainly because it could lead to false positives and hence
> offending people. So we should keep looking for a solution which is
> non-invasive and based on the FAS data. That's I guess the most
> important outcome from the discussion so far.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Neville A. Cross]

El 2014-02-27 08:33, Jiri Eischmann escribió:
> The regular password change request is also a good idea. It actually
> served the purpose quite well last time we used it because it cut off
> ambassadors who didn't care about the project enough just to change
> their passwords. And that's the kind of members we're aiming at with 
> the
> proposal. No one beyond that. No one shouldn't be removed and ideally
> even nominated for removal because he/she hasn't organized enough
> events, sent enough messages to mailing lists, participated in enough
> IRC meetings.

I strongly agreed with this. This will not only impact on ambassadors, 
it will impact on the project as a whole. This will get rid of 
"Zombies".

I want to make an example. Someone does not read all the information 
regarding freemedia. He/she creates a FAS and applies for freemedia, 
fails to create his/her wiki page and it is not accepeted in the team. 
It may happen that does not accepted FCLA or that dropped because was to 
much hassle or even that found out that freemedia team can not ask for 
media for themselves. This leaves open a Fedora Account at FAS without 
any use.

Making mandatory to change password at least once a year with four 
automatic reminders before removing the account will take off all unused 
Fedora Account at FAS. Reminder can be scheduled like one 30 days 
before, one 15 days before, one 2 days before and the last one on the 
day before. This will close Ambassadors accounts who retired and did not 
said goodbye, among all other people. As this will not erase any wiki 
information, you may found historical references of the user. But it 
will not be listed on automatic pages generated from FAS info. Like 
ambassador list.

Change the numbers to fit preferences, change password every 17 months 
with 21 reminders or whatever.

Neville

[Lynn Dixon]

I like the password change idea, with the caveat of instead of deleting the
account after "X" amount of inactivity, we archive it.  Sometimes there are
Amabassadors whom love Fedora but get wrapped up in the dealings of daily
life that they don't have time or gumption to keep track of their
Ambassador status.  However, that doesn't mean they wont ever return, and
we shouldn't just get rid of their wiki, account, and other materials
because they have gone inactive.

I am in the same boat, almost.  I love being an Ambassador and when I
signed up, I had free time and could devote alot to Fedora.  Since then, I
have decided to go back to college to earn my MBA (tough to do when you got
your undergrad 8-10 years ago) and still work a full time career.  This
leaves me with very little time to travel and devote to Fedora.  However,
once I graduate I plan on becoming more active in Fedora again, and if my
account had been deleted in my absence, I would be less motivated to sign
back up.

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 2:11 PM,  wrote:
> El 2014-02-27 08:33, Jiri Eischmann escribió:
> > The regular password change request is also a good idea. It actually
> > served the purpose quite well last time we used it because it cut off
> > ambassadors who didn't care about the project enough just to change
> > their passwords. And that's the kind of members we're aiming at with the
> > proposal. No one beyond that. No one shouldn't be removed and ideally
> > even nominated for removal because he/she hasn't organized enough
> > events, sent enough messages to mailing lists, participated in enough
> > IRC meetings.
>
> I strongly agreed with this. This will not only impact on ambassadors, it
> will impact on the project as a whole. This will get rid of "Zombies".
>
> I want to make an example. Someone does not read all the information
> regarding freemedia. He/she creates a FAS and applies for freemedia, fails
> to create his/her wiki page and it is not accepeted in the team. It may
> happen that does not accepted FCLA or that dropped because was to much
> hassle or even that found out that freemedia team can not ask for media for
> themselves. This leaves open a Fedora Account at FAS without any use.
>
> Making mandatory to change password at least once a year with four
> automatic reminders before removing the account will take off all unused
> Fedora Account at FAS. Reminder can be scheduled like one 30 days before,
> one 15 days before, one 2 days before and the last one on the day before.
> This will close Ambassadors accounts who retired and did not said goodbye,
> among all other people. As this will not erase any wiki information, you
> may found historical references of the user. But it will not be listed on
> automatic pages generated from FAS info. Like ambassador list.
>
> Change the numbers to fit preferences, change password every 17 months
> with 21 reminders or whatever.
>
> Neville
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Tristan Santore]

On 27/02/14 19:27, Lynn Dixon wrote:
> I like the password change idea, with the caveat of instead of 
> deleting the account after "X" amount of inactivity, we archive it. 
>  Sometimes there are Amabassadors whom love Fedora but get wrapped up 
> in the dealings of daily life that they don't have time or gumption to 
> keep track of their Ambassador status.  However, that doesn't mean 
> they wont ever return, and we shouldn't just get rid of their wiki, 
> account, and other materials because they have gone inactive.
>
> I am in the same boat, almost.  I love being an Ambassador and when I 
> signed up, I had free time and could devote alot to Fedora.  Since 
> then, I have decided to go back to college to earn my MBA (tough to do 
> when you got your undergrad 8-10 years ago) and still work a full time 
> career.  This leaves me with very little time to travel and devote to 
> Fedora.  However, once I graduate I plan on becoming more active in 
> Fedora again, and if my account had been deleted in my absence, I 
> would be less motivated to sign back up.

FAS accounts are never deleted. They have two states: Active or Inactive.

Forcing people to change passwords can also be tricky, even though that 
would be very good practice!
Until of course, people use the same password everywhere again, because 
they cannot recall the new passwords.

Regards,

Tristan

[Neville A. Cross]

El 2014-02-27 13:33, Tristan Santore escribió:
> On 27/02/14 19:27, Lynn Dixon wrote:
> > I like the password change idea, with the caveat of instead of 
> > deleting the account after "X" amount of inactivity, we archive it.  
> > Sometimes there are Amabassadors whom love Fedora but get wrapped up 
> > in the dealings of daily life that they don't have time or gumption to 
> > keep track of their Ambassador status.  However, that doesn't mean 
> > they wont ever return, and we shouldn't just get rid of their wiki, 
> > account, and other materials because they have gone inactive.
> >
> > I am in the same boat, almost.  I love being an Ambassador and when I 
> > signed up, I had free time and could devote alot to Fedora.  Since 
> > then, I have decided to go back to college to earn my MBA (tough to do 
> > when you got your undergrad 8-10 years ago) and still work a full time 
> > career.  This leaves me with very little time to travel and devote to 
> > Fedora.  However, once I graduate I plan on becoming more active in 
> > Fedora again, and if my account had been deleted in my absence, I 
> > would be less motivated to sign back up.
>
> FAS accounts are never deleted. They have two states: Active or 
> Inactive.
>
> Forcing people to change passwords can also be tricky, even though
> that would be very good practice!
> Until of course, people use the same password everywhere again,
> because they cannot recall the new passwords.
>
> Regards,

Even better, set the FAS to inactive. It may be a good idea for security 
reason to change password, but at the moment we are only exploring the 
active vs inactive status. I view the use of renewing the password as a 
check box to verify that it is still interested. Not need to set a new 
password, it can be allowed to use the same. It can even be another way 
of just check in the box "I am alive".

Neville

[Jiri Eischmann]

Please calm down and read the proposal once again.
IMHO it's pretty obvious from the proposal that it wouldn't affect
contributors like you.

Once again: we don't want to measure and judge activity of ambassadors.
It should only affect contributors who have not been in touch with the
project for a long time, haven't shown any sign of interest in the
project and don't care about being ambassadors any more.

If we really approves such a change there will be several safety catches
to avoid removing someone who still wants to be an ambassador. If they
fail, all you will have to do is to send a message like "Hey, I still
want to be an ambassador". Or even if all this fails, you come back and
simply say "Hey, I'm back and I want to be an ambassador again" and
you'll be added back the status without having to undergo the
mentoring.

Jiri

Jukka Palander píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 14:26 +0100:
> Hmmmm. excatly.
>
> Let's say me!
>
> I do no do IRQ-meetings, I hardly ever write into the list. I do not go
> to the events (because there are NONE in the Southern Spain and it is
> far too expensive to go elsewhere). I do not create events because I do
> not have money or time to do it.  ....and I do not do "this and that".
>
> What I do, is; I use Fedora every day, I install it in every place where
> I can (and see it possible/feasable/....) and I do spread Fedora
> media/word/information all over the places where I go. Sometimes I go to
> the business meeting presenting completely something else and having
> Fedora polo on and I may "accidently" test the Fedora website when
> testing the Internet connection and whatever pops into my mind.... and
> then sometimes I am known as a "linux man". People say "hey, there comes
> the linux man -please behave now....". Then I try to explain "no, not
> really a linux guy. rather I see myself as a FOSS man, standardization
> man, keep things simple and effective man, a Fedora man"..
>
> I must be a baaaaad and inactive person. Maybe not an Ambassador after all?
>
> --
> Jukka
>
> On 25/02/14 11:25, Danishka Navin wrote:
> > How do we define an active ambassador?
> > by number of mails hitting the list? number of events? IRC meetings?
> >
> > They should not permanently removed from the system but some where others
> > can find those information and invite them back to the project.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > > properly and eventually make a decision.
> > >
> > > You can find more in this ticket:
> > > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> > >
> > > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > > solutions. You input is welcome.
> > >
> > > Jiri
> > >
> > > --
> > > ambassadors mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
> >
> > --
> > ambassadors mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Álvaro Castillo]

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jiri Eischmann  wrote:
> Hi,
> yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> properly and eventually make a decision.
>
> You can find more in this ticket:
> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
>
> Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> solutions. You input is welcome.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

That's good choice. +1. You can prevent escape of swag e.g and sold
illegally, or scam to groups ... APAC, EMEA, NA .... Also, if you are
not doing anything, or you are not managing an event or you are not
advertising thereof. Why are you still figured as ambassador? It is
clear that most people here have families and work apart from Fedora.
But if Fedora causes a lot of work, it is best to inform the  leaving
of this project in my point of view. Anyway always will be welcome.

[Christopher Meng]

On Feb 25, 2014 6:31 PM, "Álvaro Castillo"  wrote:
> That's good choice. +1. You can prevent escape of swag e.g and sold
> illegally, or scam to groups ... APAC, EMEA, NA .... Also, if you are
> not doing anything, or you are not managing an event or you are not
> advertising thereof. Why are you still figured as ambassador? It is
> clear that most people here have families and work apart from Fedora.
> But if Fedora causes a lot of work, it is best to inform the  leaving
> of this project in my point of view. Anyway always will be welcome.

Agree.

[itamar]

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 7:07 AM, Jiri Eischmann  wrote:
> Hi,
> yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> properly and eventually make a decision.
>
> You can find more in this ticket:
> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
>
> Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> solutions. You input is welcome.
>
> Jiri

in my point of view the main problem is having inactive mentors.
mentor for me is not the guy that approve new ambassadors .
new mentors are nominated by current mentors ( for me is not good)

what happens if  you tried to blame the police to the police  ?

[Jiri Eischmann]

Itamar Reis Peixoto píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 11:01 -0300:
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 7:07 AM, Jiri Eischmann  wrote:
> > Hi,
> > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > properly and eventually make a decision.
> >
> > You can find more in this ticket:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> >
> > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > solutions. You input is welcome.
> >
> > Jiri
>
> in my point of view the main problem is having inactive mentors.
> mentor for me is not the guy that approve new ambassadors .
> new mentors are nominated by current mentors ( for me is not good)
>
> what happens if  you tried to blame the police to the police  ?

This issue is also being discussed:
https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/359

Jiri

[inode0]

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 8:01 AM, Itamar Reis Peixoto
 wrote:
> in my point of view the main problem is having inactive mentors.
> mentor for me is not the guy that approve new ambassadors .
> new mentors are nominated by current mentors ( for me is not good)

I can understand not having enough mentors in a region being a
problem. I can't understand how having an inactive mentor is a
problem. An inactive mentor is someone the community trusted to
perform a certain task and who for whatever reason can't at the
moment. That inactive mentor is like having money in the bank though,
and when circumstances permit they can begin performing their task
again. Kick one out and they won't come back.
> what happens if  you tried to blame the police to the police  ?

Please don't equate mentors with police.

John

[itamar]

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 11:23 AM, inode0  wrote:
> again. Kick one out and they won't come back.

thats true, it only happens because current mentoring is forever, but
if we change it to be valid only for 6-months or 1 year this won't
happen anymore .

[Luis Enrique Bazán De León]

== Can still occur, as the new mentor may not be very good or super good
would not change anything, if a mentor in a region is doing a bad job I
think the ambassadors may decide at its meeting to send the issue to FAmSCo
where be deemed to take action and call your mentor for explanation of why
... I think that this would be better!

if the region needs more mentors at the meeting may nominate another
ambassador and then send it for approval in FAmSCo ...

Regards!

2014-02-27 9:26 GMT-05:00 Itamar Reis Peixoto :
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 11:23 AM, inode0  wrote:
> > again. Kick one out and they won't come back.
>
> thats true, it only happens because current mentoring is forever, but
> if we change it to be valid only for 6-months or 1 year this won't
> happen anymore .
> --
> Itamar Reis Peixoto
>
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[alejandro perez]

Mentors, is a big issue if they are not available, but before we jump
into demanding new mentor or going to all steps to add a new mentor we
need to review this:

How many tickets or mentor request are for that particular region.
How many request an active mentor has rejected.

With out that, we will have more trouble.

On the pass, I have been complaining on how mentors are select, but in
the end it works, how ever there are many ambassador who want to become
mentor because they think it is the next step after been ambassador.

What we really need is a way to mesure mentors work. I know the mentor
track is a way but not sure if we can get some sort of reports from
that. That will help with to define if more mentors are needed or if a
mentor is not doing its work.

Ambassadors, we need to figured out a way to remove inactive
ambassadors, but we also need to define when ambassadors become
inactive. 
There are countries with too many ambassadors on the list, how ever when
you look around you will find that only a few are doing something, what
is worst is that there are people on the list who express their
resignation as ambassadors or to the project, but still listed as
ambassadors.

This became a problem when someone from out side the project try to
contact one of those ambassadors from the list and none of them answer.
As ambassadors is the face of the community in that region or country we
need to make sure people listed are available to answer an email
regarding Fedora.

my two cents. 
El jue, 27-02-2014 a las 09:34 -0500, Luis Enrique Bazán De León
escribió:
> == Can still occur, as the new mentor may not be very good or super
> good would not change anything, if a mentor in a region is doing a bad
> job I think the ambassadors may decide at its meeting to send the
> issue to FAmSCo where be deemed to take action and call your mentor
> for explanation of why ... I think that this would be better!
>
> if the region needs more mentors at the meeting may nominate another
> ambassador and then send it for approval in FAmSCo ...
>
> Regards!
>
> 2014-02-27 9:26 GMT-05:00 Itamar Reis Peixoto
> :
>         On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 11:23 AM, inode0 
>         wrote:
>         > again. Kick one out and they won't come back.
>     thats true, it only happens because current mentoring is
>     forever, but
>     if we change it to be valid only for 6-months or 1 year this
>     won't
>     happen anymore .
>
>
>     --
>     ------------
>
>     Itamar Reis Peixoto
>
>     --
>     ambassadors mailing list
>     [e-mail]
>     https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Luis Enrique Bazán De León
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Oussama Kheireedine Nehar]

Hello
I dont attend irc .. ... just few times .... but i always give people dvds
...help them to install fedora on their PCs.... most of this happens at the
university ... when ever i hear linux ...i present fedora ... give them a
dvd or an iso image.... and i am working on an association called : free
software and gnu linux.... and to create the linux club ... witch will held
events like realease parties & workshops ...
I attended to to do a release party fo f20 but rhe univesity ... didnr
allow me ... (papper work(
Today i tried with the univ campus ... they told me that i should get an
answer by this sunday
.
Alsi i suggested in my univ campus to run the cyber cafe on fedora ... i
told them i will help them ...but they wont because they are too lazy to do
it
.
.
.
This is my status ... thank you

On Feb 27, 2014 3:34 PM, "Luis Enrique Bazán De León" 
wrote:
> == Can still occur, as the new mentor may not be very good or super good

would not change anything, if a mentor in a region is doing a bad job I
think the ambassadors may decide at its meeting to send the issue to FAmSCo
where be deemed to take action and call your mentor for explanation of why
... I think that this would be better!
> if the region needs more mentors at the meeting may nominate another

ambassador and then send it for approval in FAmSCo ...
> Regards!
>
> 2014-02-27 9:26 GMT-05:00 Itamar Reis Peixoto :
> > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 11:23 AM, inode0  wrote:
> > > again. Kick one out and they won't come back.
> >
> > thats true, it only happens because current mentoring is forever, but
> > if we change it to be valid only for 6-months or 1 year this won't
> > happen anymore .
> > --
> > Itamar Reis Peixoto
> >
> > ambassadors mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
> --
> Luis Enrique Bazán De León
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Boy Sandy Gladies Arriezona]

Hi, I wanna ask the same thing as well about ambassador status.
I have been inactive for about half a year in IRC, forum and local group on
facebook. My reason is because I want to focus on my undergraduate thesis,
so I chose to take a break until it finish. One day, there was someone from
my region who questioned my responsibility as an ambassador. He said that I
don't behave like an ambassador just because I posted something about
another distro on facebook, I recently changed my harddrive and that distro
is the only one I have at that time. Is it wrong if I used another distro
(when I'm in a pinch) when I have ambassador status? Well, I just want to
clarify whether I have to revoke my ambassador status or not.

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Oussama Kheireedine Nehar <
[e-mail]> wrote:
> Hello
> I dont attend irc .. ... just few times .... but i always give people dvds
> ...help them to install fedora on their PCs.... most of this happens at the
> university ... when ever i hear linux ...i present fedora ... give them a
> dvd or an iso image.... and i am working on an association called : free
> software and gnu linux.... and to create the linux club ... witch will held
> events like realease parties & workshops ...
> I attended to to do a release party fo f20 but rhe univesity ... didnr
> allow me ... (papper work(
> Today i tried with the univ campus ... they told me that i should get an
> answer by this sunday
> .
> Alsi i suggested in my univ campus to run the cyber cafe on fedora ... i
> told them i will help them ...but they wont because they are too lazy to do
> it
> .
> .
> .
> This is my status ... thank you
>
> On Feb 27, 2014 3:34 PM, "Luis Enrique Bazán De León" <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
> > == Can still occur, as the new mentor may not be very good or super good
>
> would not change anything, if a mentor in a region is doing a bad job I
> think the ambassadors may decide at its meeting to send the issue to FAmSCo
> where be deemed to take action and call your mentor for explanation of why
> ... I think that this would be better!
> > if the region needs more mentors at the meeting may nominate another
>
> ambassador and then send it for approval in FAmSCo ...
> > Regards!
> >
> > 2014-02-27 9:26 GMT-05:00 Itamar Reis Peixoto :
> > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 11:23 AM, inode0  wrote:
> > > > again. Kick one out and they won't come back.
> > >
> > > thats true, it only happens because current mentoring is forever, but
> > > if we change it to be valid only for 6-months or 1 year this won't
> > > happen anymore .
> > > --
> > > Itamar Reis Peixoto
> > >
> > > ambassadors mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
> >
> > --
> > Luis Enrique Bazán De León
> >
> > --
> > ambassadors mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Tristan Santore]

On 27/02/14 15:41, Boy Sandy Gladies Arriezona wrote:
> Hi, I wanna ask the same thing as well about ambassador status.
> I have been inactive for about half a year in IRC, forum and local 
> group on facebook.My reason is because I want to focus on my 
> undergraduate thesis, so I chose to take a break until it finish. One 
> day, there was someone from my region who questioned my responsibility 
> as an ambassador. He said that I don't behave like an ambassador just 
> because I posted something about another distro on facebook, I 
> recently changed my harddrive and that distro is the only one I have 
> at that time. Is it wrong if I used another distro (when I'm in a 
> pinch) when I have ambassador status? Well, I just want to clarify 
> whether I have to revoke my ambassador status or not.
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Oussama Kheireedine Nehar 
> <[e-mail] > wrote:
> Hello
> I dont attend irc .. ... just few times .... but i always give
> people dvds ...help them to install fedora on their PCs.... most
> of this happens at the university ... when ever i hear linux ...i
> present fedora ... give them a dvd or an iso image.... and i am
> working on an association called : free software and gnu linux....
> and to create the linux club ... witch will held events like
> realease parties & workshops ...
> I attended to to do a release party fo f20 but rhe univesity ...
> didnr allow me ... (papper work(
> Today i tried with the univ campus ... they told me that i should
> get an answer by this sunday
> .
> Alsi i suggested in my univ campus to run the cyber cafe on fedora
> ... i told them i will help them ...but they wont because they are
> too lazy to do it
> .
> .
> .
> This is my status ... thank you
>
> On Feb 27, 2014 3:34 PM, "Luis Enrique Bazán De León"
> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >
> > == Can still occur, as the new mentor may not be very good or
> super good would not change anything, if a mentor in a region is
> doing a bad job I think the ambassadors may decide at its meeting
> to send the issue to FAmSCo where be deemed to take action and
> call your mentor for explanation of why ... I think that this
> would be better!
> >
> > if the region needs more mentors at the meeting may nominate
> another ambassador and then send it for approval in FAmSCo ...
> >
> > Regards!
> >
> >
> > 2014-02-27 9:26 GMT-05:00 Itamar Reis Peixoto
> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>:
> >
> >> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 11:23 AM, inode0 <[e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >> > again. Kick one out and they won't come back.
> >>
> >> thats true, it only happens because current mentoring is
> forever, but
> >> if we change it to be valid only for 6-months or 1 year this won't
> >> happen anymore .
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ------------
> >>
> >> Itamar Reis Peixoto
> >> --
> >> ambassadors mailing list
> >> [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Luis Enrique Bazán De León
> >
> > --
> > ambassadors mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
>
>
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

Who gives anyone the right to question your ambassador status ? I mean 
seriously.
Are you now supporting another distribution and recommending another 
distribution to other people ?
Then probably you should ask yourself if you set your account to inactive.

Otherwise, nobody should have the right to question your position. 
Especially as, YOU AS A STUDENT MUST DO WELL AT YOUR UNIVERSITY DEGREE. 
there are no ifs no buts! Nobody in the Fedora Project would and should 
question this. The same applies to people working full-time.

Quite frankly, if any ambassador has a go at you for this, then I would 
like to know who this person was, and then that person should be 
withdrawn as an ambassador, simply because they are acting unethically, 
and overreaching their authority.

Now, if FAmSCo should erroneously decide that we will become slave 
drivers and try and force our contributors to participate on a forced 
basis, then I will be the first person to ask the Board to remove FAmSCo 
as a decision instrument for the marketing efforts of the project.

Simply because that would be utterly preposterous.

Regards,

Tristan

[Jiri Eischmann]

Tristan Santore píše v Čt 27. 02. 2014 v 15:53 +0000:
> Now, if FAmSCo should erroneously decide that we will become slave
> drivers and try and force our contributors to participate on a forced
> basis, then I will be the first person to ask the Board to remove
> FAmSCo as a decision instrument for the marketing efforts of the
> project.
>
> Simply because that would be utterly preposterous.

You do realize that twisting claims doesn't help the discussion in any
way?

FAmSCo is not forcing anything on anyone. FAmSCo has started a broad
discussion about an issue we have had for some time and some
contributors feel we should find a solution.

And I once again have to repeat myself: please do read the proposal
neatly before you make such strong statements.

Jiri

[Boy Sandy Gladies Arriezona]

I'm not recommending another distribution to anyone, I'm using it because
it's the only one I have at that time and still using it because I don't
want to risk anything before my work is done. The good thing is it's
finally over. So, next month I'll using fedora again and back on track.
Thanks for the clarification Tristan, I really appreciate it.

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 10:53 PM, Tristan Santore <
[e-mail]> wrote:
> On 27/02/14 15:41, Boy Sandy Gladies Arriezona wrote:
>
> Hi, I wanna ask the same thing as well about ambassador status.
>  I have been inactive for about half a year in IRC, forum and local group
> on facebook. My reason is because I want to focus on my undergraduate
> thesis, so I chose to take a break until it finish. One day, there was
> someone from my region who questioned my responsibility as an ambassador.
> He said that I don't behave like an ambassador just because I posted
> something about another distro on facebook, I recently changed my harddrive
> and that distro is the only one I have at that time. Is it wrong if I used
> another distro (when I'm in a pinch) when I have ambassador status? Well, I
> just want to clarify whether I have to revoke my ambassador status or not.
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Oussama Kheireedine Nehar <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
> > Hello
> > I dont attend irc .. ... just few times .... but i always give people
> > dvds ...help them to install fedora on their PCs.... most of this happens
> > at the university ... when ever i hear linux ...i present fedora ... give
> > them a dvd or an iso image.... and i am working on an association called :
> > free software and gnu linux.... and to create the linux club ... witch will
> > held events like realease parties & workshops ...
> > I attended to to do a release party fo f20 but rhe univesity ... didnr
> > allow me ... (papper work(
> > Today i tried with the univ campus ... they told me that i should get an
> > answer by this sunday
> > .
> > Alsi i suggested in my univ campus to run the cyber cafe on fedora ... i
> > told them i will help them ...but they wont because they are too lazy to do
> > it
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > This is my status ... thank you
> >
> > On Feb 27, 2014 3:34 PM, "Luis Enrique Bazán De León" <
> > [e-mail]> wrote:
> > > == Can still occur, as the new mentor may not be very good or super
> >
> > good would not change anything, if a mentor in a region is doing a bad job
> > I think the ambassadors may decide at its meeting to send the issue to
> > FAmSCo where be deemed to take action and call your mentor for explanation
> > of why ... I think that this would be better!
> > > if the region needs more mentors at the meeting may nominate another
> >
> > ambassador and then send it for approval in FAmSCo ...
> > > Regards!
> > >
> > > 2014-02-27 9:26 GMT-05:00 Itamar Reis Peixoto <[e-mail]
> > > :
> > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 11:23 AM, inode0  wrote:
> > > > > again. Kick one out and they won't come back.
> > > >
> > > > thats true, it only happens because current mentoring is forever, but
> > > > if we change it to be valid only for 6-months or 1 year this won't
> > > > happen anymore .
> > > > --
> > > > Itamar Reis Peixoto
> > > >
> > > > ambassadors mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
> > >
> > > --
> > > Luis Enrique Bazán De León
> > >
> > > --
> > > ambassadors mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
> >
> > --
> > ambassadors mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing [e-mail]://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
> Who gives anyone the right to question your ambassador status ? I mean
> seriously.
> Are you now supporting another distribution and recommending another
> distribution to other people ?
> Then probably you should ask yourself if you set your account to inactive.
>
> Otherwise, nobody should have the right to question your position.
> Especially as, YOU AS A STUDENT MUST DO WELL AT YOUR UNIVERSITY DEGREE.
> there are no ifs no buts! Nobody in the Fedora Project would and should
> question this. The same applies to people working full-time.
>
> Quite frankly, if any ambassador has a go at you for this, then I would
> like to know who this person was, and then that person should be withdrawn
> as an ambassador, simply because they are acting unethically, and
> overreaching their authority.
>
> Now, if FAmSCo should erroneously decide that we will become slave drivers
> and try and force our contributors to participate on a forced basis, then I
> will be the first person to ask the Board to remove FAmSCo as a decision
> instrument for the marketing efforts of the project.
>
> Simply because that would be utterly preposterous.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tristan
>
> --
>
> Tristan Santore BSc MBCS
> TS4523-RIPE
> Network and Infrastructure Operations
> InterNexusConnect
> Mobile [e-mail]
>
> Former Thawte Notary
> (Please note: Thawte has closed its WoT programme down,
> and I am therefore no longer able to accredit trust)
>
> For Fedora related issues, please email me at:[e-mail]
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Tristan Santore]

Dear All,

On reviewing the ticket AGAIN. There is another important point to make 
here.
To quote: There are countries such as Brazil where they feel it as a big 
issue because around 35-40 ambassadors out of 50 are no longer active 
and responsive at all. And it looks like active ambassadors don't feel 
very comfortable in this situation. As our project gets older this issue 
will get bigger and bigger and at some point we might end up as a 
project which has mostly "zombie" contributors.

Quite frankly, this shows there is a problem in Brazil. and by reading 
some comments on the mailing list and replies to the ticket, the problem 
here is simple.

The ambassadors programme was not made to MAKE PEOPLE DO STUFF as in, 
treat them as paid workers ...period. It was meant as a happy way to 
gather people, do something good and have FUN. YES FUN! Such as having a 
beer (if you like beer or any other beverage of your choice be it 
alcoholic or not) good food, meeting people, helping others, helping new 
people to use Free Open-source Software such that Fedora is. Which 
frequently happens amongst friends, at events, be it running a booth for 
Fedora or not, being a contributor to other projects, which feed into 
Fedora and ultimately also into Red Hat, or anything else I have forgotten.

I think some people are taking the whole Ambassador thing way too 
serious. You should have FUN. Arguing and being difficult and 
complaining about others, is not constructive or helpful. Also, then it 
is no surprise people get fed up and do not participate any longer and 
then ultimately become inactive.

So, now the question is, where are issues and in which regions. Mentors 
should probably make clear people should have fun! And maybe take other 
steps to remedy the negativity in the countries or regions.

Maybe somebody should do a survey first, as to why people are now 
inactive, before you come up with the drastic steps to appease the few 
disgruntled people.

As I always say, let us have facts, not fiction. So  email the people 
and ask why, preferably sending them to an anonymous survey, much like 
fedora Elections.

Regards,

Tristan

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 05:12:28PM +0000, Tristan Santore wrote:
> I think some people are taking the whole Ambassador thing way too
> serious.

I think this touches on the reason why this comes up every couple of years and
cannot be resolve, and likely why it will not be resolved.

We have around the project a large amount of contributors from different
backgrounds and cultures. Each culture values the 'ambassador' titles
differently. For some it is just something making their life easier to get
goodies to distribute or give them a little more weight when speaking at FOSS
events, while for other it is seen as a honorific title that should be
deserved. In which case having people that are no longer 'active'/reachable
keeping the title leads to an unfair situation (b/w the person that are active
and don't have the title and thos that are not but do have the title).

To be honest, I am not sure we can find the solution that fits everyone.
Maybe a solution would be to treat this regionnaly. If a region feels there is a
need to clean its ambassador list because it leads to confusion for new-comers,
then maybe, in agreement with FAmSCo, that region should do it.
On a case-by-case basis basically.

My 2 cts,
Best regards,
Pierre

[Tristan Santore]

Dear All,

This proposal is utter nonsensical.

To quote: For the 2nd case: The process should have at least two levels, 
or maybe three. Ambassadors of that particular country can propose 
removing inactive ambassadors in their country at the regional meeting.

So, considering the UK has not that many ambassadors, unfortunately. 
That would then mean a few people can throw out others. Also, how much 
workload do you want to give FAmSCo ?

Which then gets me to another point, that of, being a Fedora Ambassador 
is not a JOB. Many Ambassadors do a lot of work for Fedora directly or 
indirectly, which never shows up on any mailing lists, irc channels or 
otherwise. So how will you quantify this ?

Also, if you are not going to chase up on people, what is the point of 
this proposal at all ?
Nevermind the fact, if you delegate this to countries or regions, these 
countries or regions will have to be organised. So, who will run this 
organisation ? Also, adding on a side point on this issue, I have had to 
tell a group of ambassadors in another country to grow up, before. 
Simply because they were having a dispute amongst themselves and were 
bickering about it like little Children and not like mature adults.

So, with regards to this proposal, it will only lead to tears and people 
abusing this. Which only creates more work for FAmSCo.

Also, I believe you give way too much credence to the "status of: Fedora 
Ambassador". Now, if you find anyone who is abusing this "attachment" to 
the Fedora Project, by feeding in disinformation or otherwise 
misrepresenting their relation to the Fedora Project and the rest of us 
all, then I would agree, there would be a case to answer. However, even 
there, where do you draw the line ? A lot of us are critical of certain 
aspects of how the project is progressing. And we had countless 
discussions about directions and other issues, which were heavily 
discussed with a larger variety of opinions, than the pool of IPv6 
addresses.

I would like to think that this makes the Fedora Project a great place 
to be involved within the FOSS community.

Regards,

Tristan

[cprofitt]

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but I thought I would
share some of my thoughts.

I think there is a difference between 'activity' / 'inactivity' vs. a
person who promotes multiple distros. I think it is reasonable to look
at activity, but it would not be beneficial to force a person to only
use Fedora. I also question the value of attempting to remove Ambassador
'status' from people based on inactivity. How much effort would have to
be put in to doing so? When it comes to getting resources, funding, etc
activity should be looked at, but I am not sure it would be valuable to
spend time to check everyone on a regular basis.

---- inode0  wrote:
> What we need a broad discussion about is whether it is a good idea to 
> ask ambassadors to basically file complaints against other
> ambassadors for nothing more than inactivity and whether FAmSCo or 
> regional groups should endorse this sort of arrangement. And I think
> on this point I agree with Tristan. If someone came to me in a FAmNA 
> meeting to file such an action against an inactive ambassador I would
> say I have more reason to expel the person wasting my time with this
> than I do the inactive ambassador.

I agree. There is a very low amount of value to people doing that... and
it opens the door to petty squabbles and unecessary conflict.

full disclosure:  I run Ubuntu and Fedora.

My thoughts.

Charles

[Arthur Buliva]

My opinion would to go through the same mechanisms that were used before of
changing passwords which have been said to have cleaned up the list.

I understand this has nothing to do with active ambassadors but just the
list so I have no cause to worry if I feel am doing enough on my side.

The ambassadors can be inactive, as said, after not having logged on to FAS
for a specified period, be it because they are busy, uninterested or maybe
mortality took hold of them.

Flag as inactive after 2 years, delete after a further 2 years of being
flagged inactive.

My opinion

Regards,
Arthur

On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:47 AM, cprofitt wrote:
> I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but I thought I would
> share some of my thoughts.
>
> I think there is a difference between 'activity' / 'inactivity' vs. a
> person who promotes multiple distros. I think it is reasonable to look
> at activity, but it would not be beneficial to force a person to only
> use Fedora. I also question the value of attempting to remove Ambassador
> 'status' from people based on inactivity. How much effort would have to
> be put in to doing so? When it comes to getting resources, funding, etc
> activity should be looked at, but I am not sure it would be valuable to
> spend time to check everyone on a regular basis.
>
> ---- inode0  wrote:
> > What we need a broad discussion about is whether it is a good idea to
> > ask ambassadors to basically file complaints against other
> > ambassadors for nothing more than inactivity and whether FAmSCo or
> > regional groups should endorse this sort of arrangement. And I think
> > on this point I agree with Tristan. If someone came to me in a FAmNA
> > meeting to file such an action against an inactive ambassador I would
> > say I have more reason to expel the person wasting my time with this
> > than I do the inactive ambassador.
>
> I agree. There is a very low amount of value to people doing that... and
> it opens the door to petty squabbles and unecessary conflict.
>
> full disclosure:  I run Ubuntu and Fedora.
>
> My thoughts.
>
> Charles
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Frank Murphy]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:07:57 +0100
Jiri Eischmann  wrote:

Whether yay or nay.
Can all replies be trimmed to relevant parts please.

"Can't see the wood because of the trees"

___
Regards
Frank 
frankly3d.com

[Jiri Eischmann]

Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> Hi,
> yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> properly and eventually make a decision.
>
> You can find more in this ticket:
> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
>
> Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> solutions. You input is welcome.
>
> Jiri

Hi,
I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.

Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us achieve what
we originally wanted to achieve.

The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify ambassadors who
haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time period (in
FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may not be
interested in the project any more.
Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their account is going
to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they can just
log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.

I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to the
notification message his/her account will just be flagged as inactive
and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors, but he/she
will keep the membership and can become active again just by logging in
to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the deadline.

It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we haven't
seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're still
interested in the project".

In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with pretty much no
additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd again like
to know your opinion.

Jiri

[Lynn Dixon]

This is a very good and elegant solution!

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> > Hi,
> > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > properly and eventually make a decision.
> >
> > You can find more in this ticket:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> >
> > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > solutions. You input is welcome.
> >
> > Jiri
>
> Hi,
> I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
>
> Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us achieve what
> we originally wanted to achieve.
>
> The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
> elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify ambassadors who
> haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time period (in
> FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may not be
> interested in the project any more.
> Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their account is going
> to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they can just
> log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.
>
> I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
> membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to the
> notification message his/her account will just be flagged as inactive
> and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors, but he/she
> will keep the membership and can become active again just by logging in
> to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the deadline.
>
> It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we haven't
> seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're still
> interested in the project".
>
> In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with pretty much no
> additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd again like
> to know your opinion.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[alejandro perez]

Sounds like a good solution.

El mar, 11-03-2014 a las 15:07 +0100, Jiri Eischmann escribió:
> Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> > Hi,
> > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > properly and eventually make a decision.
> >
> > You can find more in this ticket:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> >
> > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > solutions. You input is welcome.
> >
> > Jiri
>
> Hi,
> I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
>
> Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us achieve what
> we originally wanted to achieve.
>
> The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
> elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify ambassadors who
> haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time period (in
> FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may not be
> interested in the project any more.
> Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their account is going
> to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they can just
> log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.
>
> I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
> membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to the
> notification message his/her account will just be flagged as inactive
> and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors, but he/she
> will keep the membership and can become active again just by logging in
> to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the deadline.
>
> It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we haven't
> seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're still
> interested in the project".
>
> In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with pretty much no
> additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd again like
> to know your opinion.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 03:07:06PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> > Hi,
> > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > properly and eventually make a decision.
> >
> > You can find more in this ticket:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> >
> > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > solutions. You input is welcome.
>
> I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
> The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora

For the records, mailing lists are not covered by datagrepper (and even if it
was, not everyone uses the same email address on FAS and on mailing lists, so
that would still not work).

Did you run by the infra the option of marking accounts as inactives? Are they
ok with it? Willing to do it?

Oh and a manual step will be required, there isn't any point in running this
daily and you will want to leave some times between, say the two emails
informing that one has not logged into FAS for a while and marking the account
as inactive. This will require a manual step anyway.

Cheers,
Pierre

[Tristan Santore]

On 11/03/14 14:21, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 03:07:06PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> > > Hi,
> > > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > > properly and eventually make a decision.
> > >
> > > You can find more in this ticket:
> > > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> > >
> > > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > > solutions. You input is welcome.
> >
> > I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> > mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> > removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
> > The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> > meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
>
> For the records, mailing lists are not covered by datagrepper (and even if it
> was, not everyone uses the same email address on FAS and on mailing lists, so
> that would still not work).
>
> Did you run by the infra the option of marking accounts as inactives? Are they
> ok with it? Willing to do it?
>
> Oh and a manual step will be required, there isn't any point in running this
> daily and you will want to leave some times between, say the two emails
> informing that one has not logged into FAS for a while and marking the account
> as inactive. This will require a manual step anyway.
>
> Cheers,
> Pierre
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

I might be wrong, but I thought if you do not log in to fas for a set 
period, then fas sets the account as inactive after a certain period of 
time. Maybe somebody should talk to Toshio about this ?

Regards,

Tristan

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 02:30:05PM +0000, Tristan Santore wrote:
> On 11/03/14 14:21, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 03:07:06PM +0100, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> > > Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> > > > Hi,
> > > > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > > > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > > > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > > > properly and eventually make a decision.
> > > >
> > > > You can find more in this ticket:
> > > > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> > > >
> > > > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > > > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > > > solutions. You input is welcome.
> > >
> > > I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> > > mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> > > removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
> > > The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> > > meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
> >
> > For the records, mailing lists are not covered by datagrepper (and even if it
> > was, not everyone uses the same email address on FAS and on mailing lists, so
> > that would still not work).
> >
> > Did you run by the infra the option of marking accounts as inactives? Are they
> > ok with it? Willing to do it?
> >
> > Oh and a manual step will be required, there isn't any point in running this
> > daily and you will want to leave some times between, say the two emails
> > informing that one has not logged into FAS for a while and marking the account
> > as inactive. This will require a manual step anyway.
>
> I might be wrong, but I thought if you do not log in to fas for a
> set period, then fas sets the account as inactive after a certain
> period of time. Maybe somebody should talk to Toshio about this ?

That is indeed not the case :)

Unless we issue a distro-wide password change in FAS. Only then, if you do not
change your password, your account will be deactivated.

Pierre

[inode0]

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Jiri Eischmann  wrote:
> Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> > Hi,
> > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > properly and eventually make a decision.
> >
> > You can find more in this ticket:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> >
> > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > solutions. You input is welcome.
> >
> > Jiri
>
> Hi,
> I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
>
> Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us achieve what
> we originally wanted to achieve.
>
> The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
> elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify ambassadors who
> haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time period (in
> FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may not be
> interested in the project any more.

I would like to discourage voting in elections from being a factor as
that has never been treated by Fedora as public information and I
really don't like the idea of tracking contributors voting behavior
even for internal purposes. There isn't any reason I can see to risk
leaking this information when in order to vote you need to login to
FAS anyway so you'll be covered by FAS logs. If voting records aren't
really being looked at here beyond the FAS login that was required to
vote then it is better to not mention it which would raise some
eyebrows.
> Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their account is going
> to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they can just
> log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.
>
> I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
> membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to the
> notification message his/her account will just be flagged as inactive
> and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors, but he/she
> will keep the membership and can become active again just by logging in
> to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the deadline.
>
> It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we haven't
> seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're still
> interested in the project".
>
> In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with pretty much no
> additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd again like
> to know your opinion.

This is a much improved plan I think but it doesn't address case 1 in
the ticket that started this discussion at all and I'm not sure it
really addresses case 2 since it leaves membership in the ambassador's
group unchanged. I'm going to assume removal from public lists of
ambassadors satisfies those who raised this though.

I'm fine with doing this.

John

[Jiri Eischmann]

inode0 píše v Út 11. 03. 2014 v 09:40 -0500:
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Jiri Eischmann  wrote:
> > Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> > > Hi,
> > > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > > properly and eventually make a decision.
> > >
> > > You can find more in this ticket:
> > > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> > >
> > > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > > solutions. You input is welcome.
> > >
> > > Jiri
> >
> > Hi,
> > I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> > mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> > removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
> >
> > Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us achieve what
> > we originally wanted to achieve.
> >
> > The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> > meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
> > elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify ambassadors who
> > haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time period (in
> > FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may not be
> > interested in the project any more.
>
> I would like to discourage voting in elections from being a factor as
> that has never been treated by Fedora as public information and I
> really don't like the idea of tracking contributors voting behavior
> even for internal purposes. There isn't any reason I can see to risk
> leaking this information when in order to vote you need to login to
> FAS anyway so you'll be covered by FAS logs. If voting records aren't
> really being looked at here beyond the FAS login that was required to
> vote then it is better to not mention it which would raise some
> eyebrows.

No, I didn't mean by this that we track voting. That would not be
acceptable, of course. To vote, you need to log in to FAS/fedauth which
is tracked. So by voting you also show a sign of activity although the
voting itself is not tracked.
> > Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their account is going
> > to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they can just
> > log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.
> >
> > I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
> > membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to the
> > notification message his/her account will just be flagged as inactive
> > and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors, but he/she
> > will keep the membership and can become active again just by logging in
> > to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the deadline.
> >
> > It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we haven't
> > seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're still
> > interested in the project".
> >
> > In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with pretty much no
> > additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd again like
> > to know your opinion.
>
> This is a much improved plan I think but it doesn't address case 1 in
> the ticket that started this discussion at all and I'm not sure it
> really addresses case 2 since it leaves membership in the ambassador's
> group unchanged. I'm going to assume removal from public lists of
> ambassadors satisfies those who raised this though.
>
> I'm fine with doing this.

[Arthur Buliva]

+1. Just what I was thinking but Jiri put it better. I agree with this
proposition
On 11 Mar 2014 17:07, "Jiri Eischmann"  wrote:
> Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> > Hi,
> > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > properly and eventually make a decision.
> >
> > You can find more in this ticket:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> >
> > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > solutions. You input is welcome.
> >
> > Jiri
>
> Hi,
> I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
>
> Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us achieve what
> we originally wanted to achieve.
>
> The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
> elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify ambassadors who
> haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time period (in
> FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may not be
> interested in the project any more.
> Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their account is going
> to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they can just
> log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.
>
> I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
> membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to the
> notification message his/her account will just be flagged as inactive
> and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors, but he/she
> will keep the membership and can become active again just by logging in
> to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the deadline.
>
> It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we haven't
> seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're still
> interested in the project".
>
> In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with pretty much no
> additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd again like
> to know your opinion.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Onyeibo Oku]

+1 ... I second this

Regards
Onyeibo

On Thu, 2014-03-13 at 21:54 +0300, Arthur Buliva wrote:
> +1. Just what I was thinking but Jiri put it better. I agree with this
> proposition
>
> On 11 Mar 2014 17:07, "Jiri Eischmann"  wrote:
>         Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
>         > Hi,
>         > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to
>         have a
>         > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not.
>         This issue
>         > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to
>         discuss it
>         > properly and eventually make a decision.
>         >
>         > You can find more in this ticket:
>         > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
>         >
>         > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all
>         discussion
>         > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even
>         different
>         > solutions. You input is welcome.
>         >
>         > Jiri
>     Hi,
>     I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion
>     in this
>     mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual
>     process for
>     removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
>
>     Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us
>     achieve what
>     we originally wanted to achieve.
>
>     The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers
>     attending IRC
>     meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting
>     in Fedora
>     elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify
>     ambassadors who
>     haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time
>     period (in
>     FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may
>     not be
>     interested in the project any more.
>     Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their
>     account is going
>     to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they
>     can just
>     log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.
>
>     I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
>     membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to
>     the
>     notification message his/her account will just be flagged as
>     inactive
>     and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors,
>     but he/she
>     will keep the membership and can become active again just by
>     logging in
>     to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the
>     deadline.
>
>     It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we
>     haven't
>     seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're
>     still
>     interested in the project".
>
>     In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with
>     pretty much no
>     additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd
>     again like
>     to know your opinion.
>
>     Jiri
>
>
>     --
>     ambassadors mailing list
>     [e-mail]
>     https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Kushal Das]

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 7:37 PM, Jiri Eischmann  wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
>
> Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us achieve what
> we originally wanted to achieve.
>
> The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
> elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify ambassadors who
> haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time period (in
> FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may not be
> interested in the project any more.
> Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their account is going
> to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they can just
> log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.
>
> I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
> membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to the
> notification message his/her account will just be flagged as inactive
> and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors, but he/she
> will keep the membership and can become active again just by logging in
> to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the deadline.
>
> It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we haven't
> seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're still
> interested in the project".
>
> In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with pretty much no
> additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd again like
> to know your opinion.

This is a good idea. +1

Kushal

[nisa ban botrey]

+1 I am agreed with all above since I am applying as a ambassador in
Cambodia. It's acceptable and a very good idea. It will encourage all
ambassadors around the globe to be active rather than just exist there and
do nothing.
On Mar 11, 2014 9:07 PM, "Jiri Eischmann"  wrote:
> Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> > Hi,
> > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > properly and eventually make a decision.
> >
> > You can find more in this ticket:
> > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> >
> > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > solutions. You input is welcome.
> >
> > Jiri
>
> Hi,
> I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
>
> Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us achieve what
> we originally wanted to achieve.
>
> The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
> elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify ambassadors who
> haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time period (in
> FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may not be
> interested in the project any more.
> Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their account is going
> to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they can just
> log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.
>
> I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
> membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to the
> notification message his/her account will just be flagged as inactive
> and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors, but he/she
> will keep the membership and can become active again just by logging in
> to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the deadline.
>
> It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we haven't
> seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're still
> interested in the project".
>
> In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with pretty much no
> additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd again like
> to know your opinion.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[praveen patil]

+1  Very good idea....This will get rid of all those who just use
ambassador tag for personal benefit and do nothing for the community.
On 14-Mar-2014 10:46 AM, "nisa ban botrey"  wrote:
> +1 I am agreed with all above since I am applying as a ambassador in
> Cambodia. It's acceptable and a very good idea. It will encourage all
> ambassadors around the globe to be active rather than just exist there and
> do nothing.
> On Mar 11, 2014 9:07 PM, "Jiri Eischmann"  wrote:
> > Jiri Eischmann píše v Út 25. 02. 2014 v 11:07 +0100:
> > > Hi,
> > > yesterday we had a long discussion about whether we want to have a
> > > mechanism to remove completely inactive ambassadors or not. This issue
> > > is brought up again and again, so I think it's time to discuss it
> > > properly and eventually make a decision.
> > >
> > > You can find more in this ticket:
> > > https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/358
> > >
> > > Feel free to comment (ideally in the ticket to keep all discussion
> > > there), express your opinion, propose modifications, or even different
> > > solutions. You input is welcome.
> > >
> > > Jiri
> >
> > Hi,
> > I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> > mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> > removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
> >
> > Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us achieve what
> > we originally wanted to achieve.
> >
> > The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> > meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
> > elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify ambassadors who
> > haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time period (in
> > FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may not be
> > interested in the project any more.
> > Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their account is going
> > to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they can just
> > log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.
> >
> > I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
> > membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to the
> > notification message his/her account will just be flagged as inactive
> > and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors, but he/she
> > will keep the membership and can become active again just by logging in
> > to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the deadline.
> >
> > It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we haven't
> > seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're still
> > interested in the project".
> >
> > In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with pretty much no
> > additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd again like
> > to know your opinion.
> >
> > Jiri
> >
> > --
> > ambassadors mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

[Jatin khatri]

On Tuesday 11 March 2014 07:37 PM, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm bringing an update on this issue. Based on the discussion in this
> mailing list and in the ticket, we decided that any manual process for
> removing "inactive" ambassadors is a no-go.
>
> Pingou of Fedora Infra offered us a tool that would help us achieve what
> we originally wanted to achieve.
>
> The combination of FAS logs and datagrepper (that covers attending IRC
> meetings, using tracs, sending emails to mailing lists, voting in Fedora
> elections, writing blogposts in FP,...) can identify ambassadors who
> haven't had any sign of online activity for the given time period (in
> FAmSCo we agreed on 18 months, but it's still open) and may not be
> interested in the project any more.
> Those ambassadors would be notified by email that their account is going
> to be flagged as inactive in e.g. 14 days. To avoid it, they can just
> log in to FAS and they're fine for another 18 months.
>
> I'd like to emphasize that no one is going to lose ambassador
> membership. If someone meets the criteria and doesn't react to the
> notification message his/her account will just be flagged as inactive
> and his/her name won't be in the public list of ambassadors, but he/she
> will keep the membership and can become active again just by logging in
> to FAS and changing the status to active any time after the deadline.
>
> It's not meant to judge someone's activity, it's more like "we haven't
> seen you around online for some time, give us a wave if you're still
> interested in the project".
>
> In FAmSCo, we agreed this is a non-invasive solution with pretty much no
> additional bureaucracy that would solve the problem. But we'd again like
> to know your opinion.
>
> Jiri
>
> --
> ambassadors mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors

+1 ... this is the best solution

[Christopher Meng]

-1 here actually.

[H. Guémar]

+1 here

@cmeng: should we assume that you have a better solution or that you'd
rather keep inactive people in the ambassadors group ? Flesh up your
argumentation because we're curious about it.

best regards,
H.

[mak]

Dear All,

I am an inactive Ambassador for almost over a year (or you can say, for the
time period proposed by FAmSCo, 18 months). I was reading all the
discussion here and was ready to give away my status as an Ambassador if
the conclusion was to be made for "Revoking". As we are not doing so, and
looking forward to see, "an inactive Ambassador" might start doing things
that visualises him/her on line and assuming as Active; I feel happy and
want to become active as soon as I can untangle myself from other
involvements and do something for my community.

+ 1 for Jiri Eischmann's proposal on behalf of FAmSCo.

regards
mak

On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 6:44 PM, H. Guémar  wrote:
> +1 here
>
> @cmeng: should we assume that you have a better solution or that you'd
> rather keep inactive people in the ambassadors group ? Flesh up your
> argumentation because we're curious about it.
>
> best regards,
> H.
>
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