Everyone:
/The Register/ carried this article:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/02/rhel_deprecates_kde/
saying that Red Hat now /deprecates/ KDE in its Red Hat Enterprise Linux distribution.
The article mentions the recent release of Fedora 29, but says not a word about whether /Fedora/ will deprecate KDE as well.
I switched to KDE for a reason. GNOME simply /did not show me/ how to switch users, or do any of the things that, on MS Windows, are practically intuitive. And I understand the reason for it. GNOME mimics MacOS, while KDE mimics Windows.
I believe that GNOME has come to dominate for one reason only: those who develop distributions, like GNOME and dislike KDE. There's just something about KDE that, while it is /user/-friendly, is not /developer/-friendly--at least, not to the developers of operating systems. (Developers of /applications/ might have a different story to tell.)
I suggest to this community that we have arrived at a crisis. In six years, according to /The Register/, Red Hat Enterprise Linux /will not support/ a KDE installation or maintenance.
What are the maintainers of KDE going to do about this?
Will Fedora's maintainers do the same thing that RHEL maintainers have announced their intention to do?
Temlakos
On Fri, 2018-11-02 at 22:11 -0400, Temlakos wrote:
Everyone: The Register carried this article: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/02/rhel_deprecates_kde/ saying that Red Hat now deprecates KDE in its Red Hat Enterprise Linux distribution. The article mentions the recent release of Fedora 29, but says not a word about whether Fedora will deprecate KDE as well. I switched to KDE for a reason. GNOME simply did not show me how to switch users, or do any of the things that, on MSWindows, are practically intuitive. And I understand the reason for it. GNOME mimics MacOS, while KDE mimics Windows. I believe that GNOME has come to dominate for one reason only: those who develop distributions, like GNOME and dislike KDE. There's just something about KDE that, while it is user- friendly, is not developer-friendly--at least, not to the developers of operating systems. (Developers of applications might have a different story to tell.) I suggest to this community that we have arrived at a crisis. In six years, according to The Register, Red Hat Enterprise Linux will not support a KDE installation or maintenance. What are the maintainers of KDE going to do about this? Will Fedora's maintainers do the same thing that RHEL maintainers have announced their intention to do?
Temlakos
Until 2024 we have time to think , we will have Deepin as alternative and we still have a lot of choices xfce etc [2] By curiosity today I noticed that qt5 was included in RHEL7 (about a year ago) [1] [1]https://src.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/qt5-qtbase.git/?h=epel7 [2]https://spins.fedoraproject.org/
On 11/3/18 3:11 AM, Temlakos wrote:
arried this article:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/02/rhel_deprecates_kde/
saying that Red Hat now /deprecates/ KDE in its Red Hat Enterprise Linux distribution.
One question arises: Is it KDE as all from KDE or is it previous KDE versions but not Plasma?
|<
I would expect, as a kde user, that it is the version preceding Plasma. I use the option that merges the desktop with the menu. The just start typing interface
Regards Leslie Leslie Satenstein Montréal Québec, Canada
On Saturday, November 3, 2018, 6:14:41 a.m. EDT, Klaus Kolle klaus@kolle.dk wrote:
On 11/3/18 3:11 AM, Temlakos wrote:
arried this article:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/02/rhel_deprecates_kde/
saying that Red Hat now /deprecates/ KDE in its Red Hat Enterprise Linux distribution.
One question arises: Is it KDE as all from KDE or is it previous KDE versions but not Plasma?
|<
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
Am 03.11.18 um 11:13 schrieb Klaus Kolle:
On 11/3/18 3:11 AM, Temlakos wrote:
arried this article:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/02/rhel_deprecates_kde/
saying that Red Hat now /deprecates/ KDE in its Red Hat Enterprise Linux distribution.
One question arises: Is it KDE as all from KDE or is it previous KDE versions but not Plasma?
how does that question arise?
distributions typicall have only one version of KDE and RHEL in the future don't have any - it's that easy and "I would expect, as a kde user, that it is the version preceding Plasma" is nonsense
the focous of Redhat is and was always GNOME - sad but true
On Fri, Nov 02, 2018 at 10:11:20PM -0400, Temlakos wrote:> Everyone:
The article mentions the recent release of Fedora 29, but says not a word about whether /Fedora/ will deprecate KDE as well.
Because as long as this group is here and interested in KDE on Fedora, there's no words like that to say.
Will Fedora's maintainers do the same thing that RHEL maintainers have announced their intention to do?
The easiest way to make that a "no" is to join the KDE SIG. Not just the mailing list, but work on packaging, polish, testing, design, documentation, user support, etc. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE
(We're _always_ short on KDE testers come release time. Your help can make a difference.)
My view is that the KDE versions prior to Plasma will be blown away. KDE will remain. My second view is that for the desktop, it no longer is a distribution competition, as all distributions I see are providing the same kernel levels, and the same level of GNOME or KDE. Gnome and KDE have made the distribution provider an unimportance. Where it may become important is with the rapidity of support and peer groups. I see four winners -- Ubuntu, SUSE/Tumbleweed, RedHat/Fedora, and the others. Eventually, some group is going to produce a KDE/GNOME distribution, similar to linuxMint and it will be most popular. Furthermore, containers, flatpacks, etc. will be ubiquitous so that you visit some repository and choose the ones you want for your needs. They will be universal, to all distributions.
Today I currently log into my Tumbleweed distribution as a KDE user, or use the gear wheel to log in as a Gnome user. I am a desktop user of Gnome and KDE.
With Fedora (on my 4th and 5th cpu Disks, I can do KDE but not Gnome on one but not both. Gear wheel functionality does not work
Note. Fedora and Tumbleweed and Ubuntu are provided only to support the respective server vendors.
Regards Leslie Leslie Satenstein Montréal Québec, Canada
On Friday, November 2, 2018, 10:16:41 p.m. EDT, Temlakos temlakos@gmail.com wrote:
Everyone:
The Register carried this article:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/02/rhel_deprecates_kde/
saying that Red Hat now deprecates KDE in its Red Hat Enterprise Linux distribution.
The article mentions the recent release of Fedora 29, but says not a word about whether Fedora will deprecate KDE as well.
I switched to KDE for a reason. GNOME simply did not show me how to switch users, or do any of the things that, on MS Windows, are practically intuitive. And I understand the reason for it. GNOME mimics MacOS, while KDE mimics Windows.
I believe that GNOME has come to dominate for one reason only: those who develop distributions, like GNOME and dislike KDE. There's just something about KDE that, while it is user-friendly, is not developer-friendly--at least, not to the developers of operating systems. (Developers of applications might have a different story to tell.)
I suggest to this community that we have arrived at a crisis. In six years, according to The Register, Red Hat Enterprise Linux will not support a KDE installation or maintenance.
What are the maintainers of KDE going to do about this?
Will Fedora's maintainers do the same thing that RHEL maintainers have announced their intention to do?
Temlakos
_______________________________________________ kde mailing list -- kde@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
My view is that the KDE versions prior to Plasma will be blown away. KDE will remain.
This is nonsense. The version shipped in RHEL 7 is already called Plasma (Plasma 4), and the deprecation announcement specifically mentions Plasma.
Plasma will not be part of RHEL 8, it will have to be provided by EPEL. Older versions will not be provided at all.
Kevin Kofler
Temlakos wrote:
The article mentions the recent release of Fedora 29, but says not a word about whether /Fedora/ will deprecate KDE as well.
It will not.
This is a RHEL-only deprecation and has no effect whatsoever on Fedora. KDE packaging in Fedora is already mostly community-driven.
The packagers are around on #fedora-kde on Freenode IRC.
I switched to KDE for a reason. GNOME simply /did not show me/ how to switch users, or do any of the things that, on MS Windows, are practically intuitive. And I understand the reason for it. GNOME mimics MacOS, while KDE mimics Windows.
GNOME's idea of "user-friendliness" is to hide as many options as possible from the user. Everything is hardcoded. This is very similar to Apple's philosophy, indeed.
I believe that GNOME has come to dominate for one reason only: those who develop distributions, like GNOME and dislike KDE. There's just something about KDE that, while it is /user/-friendly, is not /developer/-friendly--at least, not to the developers of operating systems. (Developers of /applications/ might have a different story to tell.)
I don't see KDE being unfriendly to any kind of developers. For application developers, Qt is a much nicer toolkit to work with than GTK+ (and yes, I have worked with both). Distribution developers are also always welcomed upstream. Some KDE upstream developers strongly dislike downstream patches to their code, but so do GNOME upstream developers.
The main difference from Red Hat's standpoint is that GNOME development is almost entirely driven by Red Hat, as they have many GNOME developers and control a large part of GNOME upstream development, whereas for KDE, they actually have to work together with other people (both individuals and companies). Red Hat also has very few KDE developers in house who can develop needed changes for them (upstream or even as a downstream patch), which is pretty much a vicious circle: no manpower leads to no interest leads to no manpower.
I suggest to this community that we have arrived at a crisis. In six years, according to /The Register/, Red Hat Enterprise Linux /will not support/ a KDE installation or maintenance.
It will not be supported by the commercial support (RHEL support contracts), but the Fedora KDE SIG plans to provide it in EPEL.
What are the maintainers of KDE going to do about this?
The Fedora KDE maintainers want to package it for EPEL.
As for commercial support, there may or may not be a third-party company offering support contracts. I would not count on it, but it might actually happen if there is a market. It is too early to tell. But that only matters for (mainly corporate) customers that want support contracts to begin with. CentOS users are not really affected by that support issue, and Fedora users are not affected at all to begin with.
Will Fedora's maintainers do the same thing that RHEL maintainers have announced their intention to do?
No.
Kevin Kofler
Hi Kevin KDE and Gnome will grow and become more useful, particularly when voice activation and IOT functionality gets implemened. With containers, flatpacks, or other modules, pretty soon these will be interchangable between Debian, RedHat, SUSE, and UBUNTU systems.When that happens, as it will, look to non-propriatory Gnome or KDE group desktop systems, free from the mentioned vendors.I am able to use my Gnome system on 4 of the mentioned systems. I am sure that I can do it with Gnome. And by the way, KDE works ubiquitously, without headscratching or sweating to make it work.
Regards Leslie Leslie Satenstein Montréal Québec, Canada
On Saturday, November 3, 2018, 12:01:42 p.m. EDT, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Temlakos wrote:
The article mentions the recent release of Fedora 29, but says not a word about whether /Fedora/ will deprecate KDE as well.
It will not.
This is a RHEL-only deprecation and has no effect whatsoever on Fedora. KDE packaging in Fedora is already mostly community-driven.
The packagers are around on #fedora-kde on Freenode IRC.
I switched to KDE for a reason. GNOME simply /did not show me/ how to switch users, or do any of the things that, on MS Windows, are practically intuitive. And I understand the reason for it. GNOME mimics MacOS, while KDE mimics Windows.
GNOME's idea of "user-friendliness" is to hide as many options as possible from the user. Everything is hardcoded. This is very similar to Apple's philosophy, indeed.
I believe that GNOME has come to dominate for one reason only: those who develop distributions, like GNOME and dislike KDE. There's just something about KDE that, while it is /user/-friendly, is not /developer/-friendly--at least, not to the developers of operating systems. (Developers of /applications/ might have a different story to tell.)
I don't see KDE being unfriendly to any kind of developers. For application developers, Qt is a much nicer toolkit to work with than GTK+ (and yes, I have worked with both). Distribution developers are also always welcomed upstream. Some KDE upstream developers strongly dislike downstream patches to their code, but so do GNOME upstream developers.
The main difference from Red Hat's standpoint is that GNOME development is almost entirely driven by Red Hat, as they have many GNOME developers and control a large part of GNOME upstream development, whereas for KDE, they actually have to work together with other people (both individuals and companies). Red Hat also has very few KDE developers in house who can develop needed changes for them (upstream or even as a downstream patch), which is pretty much a vicious circle: no manpower leads to no interest leads to no manpower.
I suggest to this community that we have arrived at a crisis. In six years, according to /The Register/, Red Hat Enterprise Linux /will not support/ a KDE installation or maintenance.
It will not be supported by the commercial support (RHEL support contracts), but the Fedora KDE SIG plans to provide it in EPEL.
What are the maintainers of KDE going to do about this?
The Fedora KDE maintainers want to package it for EPEL.
As for commercial support, there may or may not be a third-party company offering support contracts. I would not count on it, but it might actually happen if there is a market. It is too early to tell. But that only matters for (mainly corporate) customers that want support contracts to begin with. CentOS users are not really affected by that support issue, and Fedora users are not affected at all to begin with.
Will Fedora's maintainers do the same thing that RHEL maintainers have announced their intention to do?
No.
Kevin Kofler _______________________________________________ kde mailing list -- kde@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
Am 03.11.18 um 19:32 schrieb Leslie S Satenstein:
KDE and Gnome will grow and become more useful, particularly when voice activation and IOT functionality gets implemened.
With containers, flatpacks, or other modules, pretty soon these will be interchangable between Debian, RedHat, SUSE, and UBUNTU systems. When that happens, as it will, look to non-propriatory Gnome or KDE group desktop systems, free from the mentioned vendors. I am able to use my Gnome system on 4 of the mentioned systems. I am sure that I can do it with Gnome.
don't get me wrong but that is way too much sonsense in a single post (besdies your HTML mails with fancy colored signature are annoying) because Flatpak from a technical point of view is pure bullshit and repeating the windows world while central repos with shared librraies instead dupliacates are the strength of a Linux distribution and people which want that vesion hell like on Windows just should use Windows instead sacrifice Linux
Hi Reindl What if the future is Android on the desktop. I get more functionality with my CELLPHONE than I do with Linux.I am open minded to the fact that today Amazon or the equivalent sell devices that respond to commands.With an intelligent Thermostat, and switches, I can control my home from a distance. Right now, I can't do that sitting at a desk with KDE. We need "richer functionality hardware" and matching increase in functionality of KDE or Gnome. I use KDE and GNOME on systems by Fedora, Ubuntu, Tumbleweed and Manjaro. They are all offering exactly the same KDE or GNOME. It does not matter to me which of the above I install. What does matter to me is the richness of their libraries and available applications. The distribution with the most will most likely win. RedHat's decisions are not cast in stone. Business pressures ( $$$) can change decisions dramatically.
Regards
On Saturday, November 3, 2018, 2:42:48 p.m. EDT, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 03.11.18 um 19:32 schrieb Leslie S Satenstein:
KDE and Gnome will grow and become more useful, particularly when voice activation and IOT functionality gets implemened.
With containers, flatpacks, or other modules, pretty soon these will be interchangable between Debian, RedHat, SUSE, and UBUNTU systems. When that happens, as it will, look to non-propriatory Gnome or KDE group desktop systems, free from the mentioned vendors. I am able to use my Gnome system on 4 of the mentioned systems. I am sure that I can do it with Gnome.
don't get me wrong but that is way too much sonsense in a single post (besdies your HTML mails with fancy colored signature are annoying) because Flatpak from a technical point of view is pure bullshit and repeating the windows world while central repos with shared librraies instead dupliacates are the strength of a Linux distribution and people which want that vesion hell like on Windows just should use Windows instead sacrifice Linux _______________________________________________ kde mailing list -- kde@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
Am 03.11.18 um 19:55 schrieb Leslie S Satenstein:
What if the future is Android on the desktop. I get more functionality with my CELLPHONE than I do with Linux.
than you are doing something wrong or not much at all - that's it
for a consumer knowing nothing but web-browsing and bascily email while even email is used like a joke the underlying OS don't matter, but that's not the target audience Linux has, it just can serve them too
easily to see in the way you use your mail cient not able to leave a plaintext post in peace and quoting footers and writing TOFU
while whoever maitains the Fedora mailinglists is clueless too because otherwise the footer would start with "-- " where the space char is vital so that sane clients wouldn't quote it anyway
On Saturday, November 3, 2018, 2:42:48 p.m. EDT, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 03.11.18 um 19:32 schrieb Leslie S Satenstein:
KDE and Gnome will grow and become more useful, particularly when voice activation and IOT functionality gets implemened.
With containers, flatpacks, or other modules, pretty soon these will be interchangable between Debian, RedHat, SUSE, and UBUNTU systems. When that happens, as it will, look to non-propriatory Gnome or KDE group desktop systems, free from the mentioned vendors. I am able to use my Gnome system on 4 of the mentioned systems. I am sure that I can do it with Gnome.
don't get me wrong but that is way too much sonsense in a single post (besdies your HTML mails with fancy colored signature are annoying) because Flatpak from a technical point of view is pure bullshit and repeating the windows world while central repos with shared librraies instead dupliacates are the strength of a Linux distribution and people which want that vesion hell like on Windows just should use Windows instead sacrifice Linux
Hi Riendl, You must be a very critical intolerant individual. Sad thatyou can be annoyed by discussion about future technologies.
About me. I do not run servers at home,nor do I intend to. I write software in C, C++, Javascript and I write bash scripts. KDE is what I use, some of the time. But to do all that writing of documentation I use LibreOffice, I mainly use a terminal and vim for coding. But when I have to correspond, I do so politely, and without criticizing others. There is a simple saying that applies to many people. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is solved with a nail.
There is more to KDE than KDE.I have fun and enjoyment doing and using Linux or writing with KDE or coding Gnome extensions. Those are my nails. Why do you not think that Google is looking to displace Microsoft Windows10 or Linux?Android can do the job for every student in school or at work. Only programmers need something more sophisticated. Think like a business person and the profit that Google can make for a few million dollarsof investment into an Android desktop development. Tablets are android devices.
Have you yet been to a restaurent where the waitress hands you a tablet with a menu and you use it to order your meal and to pay your bill? Where is KDE with ability to offer that functionality? MacDonalds restaurent has the ordering screen. It is very graphical and android like.
KDE is great, otherwise I would not use it. But if it does not move carefully forward to match allthe new automation coming around us, it will lose following and eventually evaporate. And yes, adding/removing/tailoring software on Android is so easy compared to Linux. And doing so is reasonably secure. There is no user concern for root, groups and network setups. Vendors put in smarts to take away that responsible work from you. Is RedHat doing the right thing because KDE is not progressing fast enough? Does KDE needto offer integrated KDE applications for business, for networking, or robotics to stay popularand grow in importance. This is a discussion forum. What are your opinions?
Am 03.11.18 um 19:55 schrieb Leslie S Satenstein:
What if the future is Android on the desktop. I get more functionality with my CELLPHONE than I do with Linux.
than you are doing something wrong or not much at all - that's it
for a consumer knowing nothing but web-browsing and bascily email while even email is used like a joke the underlying OS don't matter, but that's not the target audience Linux has, it just can serve them too
easily to see in the way you use your mail cient not able to leave a plaintext post in peace and quoting footers and writing TOFU
while whoever maitains the Fedora mailinglists is clueless too because otherwise the footer would start with "-- " where the space char is vital so that sane clients wouldn't quote it anyway
On Saturday, November 3, 2018, 2:42:48 p.m. EDT, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 03.11.18 um 19:32 schrieb Leslie S Satenstein:
KDE and Gnome will grow and become more useful, particularly when voice activation and IOT functionality gets implemened.
With containers, flatpacks, or other modules, pretty soon these will be interchangable between Debian, RedHat, SUSE, and UBUNTU systems. When that happens, as it will, look to non-propriatory Gnome or KDE group desktop systems, free from the mentioned vendors. I am able to use my Gnome system on 4 of the mentioned systems. I am sure that I can do it with Gnome.
don't get me wrong but that is way too much nonsense in a single post (besdies your HTML mails with fancy colored signature are annoying) because Flatpak from a technical point of view is pure bullshit and repeating the windows world while central repos with shared librraies instead dupliacates are the strength of a Linux distribution and people which want that vesion hell like on Windows just should use Windows instead sacrifice Linux
_______________________________________________ kde mailing list -- kde@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
What if the future is Android on the desktop. I get more functionality with my CELLPHONE than I do with Linux.
That means you are dependent on proprietary applications ("apps") that vendors decide to make available only for Android (and iOS, typically) because it is easier to sell blobs or ship ad- and/or spyware-infected blobs there.
You have to realize that proprietary cellphone apps are still proprietary software, even if the abbreviation "apps" sounds fancier for some reason.
Kevin Kofler
Kevin,For many many years (I am a grandfather), we had a telephone connected to wires on the wall.That telephone was propriatory. The telephone exchanges that run small businesses are likewise.Technology moves on. We must not stagnate. For an idea of changes.My washing machine and dryer have bluetooth, and can transmit use and breakdown notificationDitto for my kitchen oven, microware, dishwasher and refrigerator.If I wanted, I could have a robotic vacuum cleaner. Set it in the room and it will traverse the floor,learning to go around obsticles. Car safety, automatic braking, side danger warnings, and even self driving are within the coming decade.Is KDE going to stand still?
Regards Leslie Leslie Satenstein Montréal Québec, Canada
On Saturday, November 3, 2018, 5:32:37 p.m. EDT, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
What if the future is Android on the desktop. I get more functionality with my CELLPHONE than I do with Linux.
That means you are dependent on proprietary applications ("apps") that vendors decide to make available only for Android (and iOS, typically) because it is easier to sell blobs or ship ad- and/or spyware-infected blobs there.
You have to realize that proprietary cellphone apps are still proprietary software, even if the abbreviation "apps" sounds fancier for some reason.
Kevin Kofler _______________________________________________ kde mailing list -- kde@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
On Sunday, November 4, 2018 4:10:33 AM CET Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
Kevin,For many many years (I am a grandfather), we had a telephone connected to wires on the wall.That telephone was propriatory. The telephone exchanges that run small businesses are likewise.Technology moves on. We must not stagnate. For an idea of changes.My washing machine and dryer have bluetooth, and can transmit use and breakdown notificationDitto for my kitchen oven, microware, dishwasher and refrigerator.If I wanted, I could have a robotic vacuum cleaner. Set it in the room and it will traverse the floor,learning to go around obsticles. Car safety, automatic braking, side danger warnings, and even self driving are within the coming decade.Is KDE going to stand still?
Regards Leslie Leslie Satenstein Montréal Québec, Canada
On Saturday, November 3, 2018, 5:32:37 p.m. EDT, Kevin Koflerkevin.kofler@chello.at wrote: Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
What if the future is Android on the desktop. I get more functionality with my CELLPHONE than I do with Linux.
That means you are dependent on proprietary applications ("apps") that vendors decide to make available only for Android (and iOS, typically) because it is easier to sell blobs or ship ad- and/or spyware-infected blobs there.
You have to realize that proprietary cellphone apps are still proprietary software, even if the abbreviation "apps" sounds fancier for some reason.
Kevin Kofler
kde mailing list -- kde@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
Proprietary software is incompatible with the Linux distribution model. I have 3 proprietary applications installed on my system: VScode, Mathematica and Matlab. When I did the upgrade to F29 beta all 3 segfaulted. Linux is not a static target platform. Android tries to pretend it is ... and failed badly. Most android devices run horribly outdated and unpatched core software and the deployment of updates by the phone manufacturers can take months even if the device is still supported.
On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 15:14:04 +0100, you wrote:
Proprietary software is incompatible with the Linux distribution model. I have 3 proprietary applications installed on my system: VScode, Mathematica and Matlab. When I did the upgrade to F29 beta all 3 segfaulted.
Visual Studio Code is not proprietary, it is open source.
Am 04.11.18 um 16:21 schrieb Gerald Henriksen:
On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 15:14:04 +0100, you wrote:
Proprietary software is incompatible with the Linux distribution model. I have 3 proprietary applications installed on my system: VScode, Mathematica and Matlab. When I did the upgrade to F29 beta all 3 segfaulted.
Visual Studio Code is not proprietary, it is open source.
irrelevant when you don't want or can't build from source and it's not properly packaged in the distribution
On Sunday, November 4, 2018 4:21:41 PM CET Gerald Henriksen wrote:
On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 15:14:04 +0100, you wrote:
Proprietary software is incompatible with the Linux distribution model. I have
3 proprietary applications installed on my system: VScode,
Mathematica and Matlab. When I did the upgrade to F29 beta all 3 segfaulted.
Visual Studio Code is not proprietary, it is open source. _______________________________________________ kde mailing list -- kde@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
Technically you are right. However it is not clear whether you are allowed to link to the MS extension gallery in the OSS version and the offical version is not provided under an open source license. It also has a quite painful and esoteric build process that is difficult to adapt to different packaging guidelines.
Matthieu Gras wrote:
It also has a quite painful and esoteric build process that is difficult to adapt to different packaging guidelines.
Before you can even start packaging VSCode in a way compliant to the packaging guidelines, you first have to do that with Electron. So far nobody even tried. All the Coprs that I've seen that try to ship Electron use blobs at some level.
The normal Electron and Electron app build process relies heavily on downloading prebuilt blobs at build time. To package this thing in a way acceptable for Fedora, everything has to be built from source and packaged separately, and then the build process has to be patched to use the system version instead of attempting to download a blob from the Internet (which cannot possibly work in Koji anyway).
You have to first build libchromiumcontent from source, which is comparable in effort to the chromium and qt5-qtwebengine packages (but some of the work done there can be reused), then build Electron from source using that (upstream normally uses a libchromiumcontent blob if you try to build Electron "from source" using their instructions), and only then you can build applications such as VSCode (which will by default want to use an Electron blob that even bundles the libchromiumcontent blob inside).
Kevin Kofler
Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
voice activation IOT functionality containers flatpacks modules
All these are just fancy buzzwords. When you think it through, all these concepts actually make the system worse.
Voice activation means your computer records everything that you say, and with the current implementations, sends everything after a keyword (which can be said accidentally, it has happened in practice) to a central server for processing. So your computer is effectively spying on you.
IOT functionality typically means proprietary devices that contain software that cannot be upgraded (either it physically cannot, or it theoretically can, but no upgrades are provided and signature locks prevent third parties from providing them) and are thus a security nightmare. They can be abused both as botnet members and to attack other devices in your local network.
Containers, flatpaks and modules all ruin the concept of an integrated distribution where everything is packaged and all libraries are shared. Instead, we get incompatible library versions and library bundling, leading to wasted space and again to a security nightmare.
So please stop believing that hype buzzwords will magically improve GNU/Linux.
Kevin Kofler
On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 22:12, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
voice activation IOT functionality containers flatpacks modules
All these are just fancy buzzwords. When you think it through, all these concepts actually make the system worse.
Voice activation means your computer records everything that you say, and with the current implementations, sends everything after a keyword (which can be said accidentally, it has happened in practice) to a central server for processing. So your computer is effectively spying on you.
Just to chip in: worth noting that voice activation doesn't have to be central server based (though that's the approach Google, Amazon et al. take, for the reason they want All The Data), and voice control can be incredibly important for accessibility purposes.
Ian Malone wrote:
Just to chip in: worth noting that voice activation doesn't have to be central server based (though that's the approach Google, Amazon et al. take, for the reason they want All The Data), and voice control can be incredibly important for accessibility purposes.
There is actually a KDE project developing voice control for accessibility purposes: https://simon.kde.org/ This is purely local and does NOT send your data to some central server. It is already packaged in Fedora: https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/simon
But Alexa and the like are really awful spyware and NOT something one should want on one's computer.
Kevin Kofler
Hi Kevin,
I tried installing simon. dnf replies:
nothing provides libsphinxbase.so.1()(64bit) needed by sphinxtrain-1.0.8-46.fc29.x86_64 nothing provides libsphinxad.so.0()(64bit) needed by sphinxtrain-1.0.8-46.fc29.x86_64
Next, I tried to install sphinxtrain. dnf replied with the same missing dependencies. Next, I searched what provides these and I found that sphinxbase-libs provides libsphinxbase.so.3 (not so.1), but nothing provides libsphinxad.so.*.
How do I install simon?
Peter Gückel
p g wrote:
I tried installing simon. dnf replies:
nothing provides libsphinxbase.so.1()(64bit) needed by sphinxtrain-1.0.8-46.fc29.x86_64 nothing provides libsphinxad.so.0()(64bit) needed by sphinxtrain-1.0.8-46.fc29.x86_64
Next, I tried to install sphinxtrain. dnf replied with the same missing dependencies. Next, I searched what provides these and I found that sphinxbase-libs provides libsphinxbase.so.3 (not so.1), but nothing provides libsphinxad.so.*.
sphinxtrain needs to be rebuilt against the current sphinxbase-libs: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1637176
Kevin Kofler
I sure hope they get around to doing it. The bug is from a month ago :-( simon sounds very interesting!
Just a reminder to everyone that we all use technology in different ways. There's no need to belittle the choices we make in how we use our technology. Let's keep this thread on-topic.
As Matthew and others have said, this group is what will keep KDE alive in Fedora. I've mostly lurked on here. I switched to KDE many years ago because I liked the flexibility it gave me, but I've not really contributed back in any meaningful way. Let's use the RHEL announcement as an opportunity to make this SIG more vital. I'd love to see more content on the community blog with calls for help and other ways to get folks more active.
On 6/11/18 1:43 am, Ben Cotton wrote:
Just a reminder to everyone that we all use technology in different ways. There's no need to belittle the choices we make in how we use our technology. Let's keep this thread on-topic.
As Matthew and others have said, this group is what will keep KDE alive in Fedora. I've mostly lurked on here. I switched to KDE many years ago because I liked the flexibility it gave me, but I've not really contributed back in any meaningful way. Let's use the RHEL announcement as an opportunity to make this SIG more vital. I'd love to see more content on the community blog with calls for help and other ways to get folks more active.
I'm not sure why people are making a fuss.
This is exactly what RH has been doing for a long time - shifting everything they don't want to support directly into EPEL.
RHEL7 was the first revision of this - and thousands of packages were shifted to EPEL. This is just the continuation of this.
Steven Haigh wrote:
I'm not sure why people are making a fuss.
This is exactly what RH has been doing for a long time - shifting everything they don't want to support directly into EPEL.
The thing is, each time they do this, they reduce the value of the support contract. What use is the support contract if even the desktop environment you use is not supported? Why would you even bother getting one over just using CentOS for free? Or even Debian, for that matter?
Kevin Kofler
On 6/11/18 12:11 pm, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Steven Haigh wrote:
I'm not sure why people are making a fuss.
This is exactly what RH has been doing for a long time - shifting everything they don't want to support directly into EPEL.
The thing is, each time they do this, they reduce the value of the support contract. What use is the support contract if even the desktop environment you use is not supported? Why would you even bother getting one over just using CentOS for free? Or even Debian, for that matter?
Same arguments I had when RHEL7 was released. People have forgotten this however.
I guess RH see it as focussing on the core that the majority use - and it becomes 'self support' for the stuff via EPEL.
If you need corporate support, you'll switch to Gnome. RH will give you better support for it. It reduces the massive scope that RH currently support to allow them to focus on the important things[*].
I think this comes down a lot to the mindset that RHEL is a server distro. If they have to support a desktop, they want the one they have the most resources for.
* What you and I think is important may not be the same as RH, which will follow the money for their existing customers.
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 9:20 PM Steven Haigh netwiz@crc.id.au wrote:
On 6/11/18 12:11 pm, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Steven Haigh wrote:
I'm not sure why people are making a fuss.
This is exactly what RH has been doing for a long time - shifting everything they don't want to support directly into EPEL.
The thing is, each time they do this, they reduce the value of the support contract. What use is the support contract if even the desktop environment you use is not supported? Why would you even bother getting one over just using CentOS for free? Or even Debian, for that matter?
Same arguments I had when RHEL7 was released. People have forgotten this however.
I guess RH see it as focussing on the core that the majority use - and it becomes 'self support' for the stuff via EPEL.
If you need corporate support, you'll switch to Gnome. RH will give you better support for it. It reduces the massive scope that RH currently support to allow them to focus on the important things[*].
I think this comes down a lot to the mindset that RHEL is a server distro. If they have to support a desktop, they want the one they have the most resources for.
- What you and I think is important may not be the same as RH, which
will follow the money for their existing customers.
The thing with these deprecations is that they're easy enough to revisit, provided that customers actually request it. Usually, a deprecation notice like this is the start of a conversation, not the end of one. If you treat it as the end of a conversation, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and it goes away, _despite_ potential demand. The only deprecations in the RHEL 7 release notes that are probably not arguable are the ones related to software being EOL upstream. The rest? They're always up for discussion.
At the core of it, if customers say they don't like this particular deprecation, the notice would go away in a following point release's release notes.
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
KevinWe have a 3 inch by 3 inch android box for our TV. I have 2000 channels, and many options for email setup, youtube, movies, etc.It can accept a keyboard as a remote wireless device. It is an excellent IOT.
That box has no hard disk, just some ram for cache and buffering and a SOC (software on a chip) Cost in Canada --$100.00 Amazon and Google sell andoid devices that take speech and provide results. With those devices, you can see a whole range of new applications, such as refrigerator alarms, etc. My cellphone answer questions such as "Best gasoline price near me", or I use the wayz application for travelling. KDE supports the webcam, and it only takes a few additions to make KDE a controller for the IOT.There is no worry if the IOT is locked source. The android app is in JS, and can be reprogrammed for use under Linux. We have raspberry devices that can run Linux with KDE, some friends use that. They also use the cloud for hard disk storage. I am looking forward to live video and video conferencing with KDE, as we do on my cellphone with facebook. I expect that many cellphone functions will arrive onto Linux and be functioning with KDE or (gasp) Gnome.
Regards Leslie Leslie Satenstein Montréal Québec, Canada
On Saturday, November 3, 2018, 5:21:51 p.m. EDT, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
voice activation IOT functionality containers flatpacks modules
All these are just fancy buzzwords. When you think it through, all these concepts actually make the system worse.
Voice activation means your computer records everything that you say, and with the current implementations, sends everything after a keyword (which can be said accidentally, it has happened in practice) to a central server for processing. So your computer is effectively spying on you.
IOT functionality typically means proprietary devices that contain software that cannot be upgraded (either it physically cannot, or it theoretically can, but no upgrades are provided and signature locks prevent third parties from providing them) and are thus a security nightmare. They can be abused both as botnet members and to attack other devices in your local network.
Containers, flatpaks and modules all ruin the concept of an integrated distribution where everything is packaged and all libraries are shared. Instead, we get incompatible library versions and library bundling, leading to wasted space and again to a security nightmare.
So please stop believing that hype buzzwords will magically improve GNU/Linux.
Kevin Kofler _______________________________________________ kde mailing list -- kde@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
You are confirming exactly what I wrote:
Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
We have a 3 inch by 3 inch android box for our TV. I have 2000 channels, and many options for email setup, youtube, movies, etc.It can accept a keyboard as a remote wireless device. It is an excellent IOT.
That box has no hard disk, just some ram for cache and buffering and a SOC (software on a chip) Cost in Canada --$100.00
When you have a security hole on that device, you have no way to fix it.
Amazon and Google sell andoid devices that take speech and provide results.
All the commands you give to those devices are sent to Amazon's or Google's servers for processing. They can be given to a human (that happens more often than you realize, the automatic voice recognition is nowhere near as good as they claim, so they have many dictation typers), automatically used to control advertising, etc. And the device can even mishear the trigger ("Alexa" or "Hey Google") when you haven't even said it and then start recording and sending everything you say to the company. There are documented cases of that happening.
With those devices, you can see a whole range of new applications, such as refrigerator alarms, etc.
But also a whole range of security holes and privacy invasions.
There is no worry if the IOT is locked source. The android app is in JS, and can be reprogrammed for use under Linux.
Can you even access that JavaScript as a user and is it legal to modify it? If it were so easy to make it work under GNU/Linux, why do you need Android at all?
They also use the cloud for hard disk storage.
That means they are sending all their private data to some external provider who can read everything! (Even if they claim to encrypt the data, can you verify that, and also that the encryption is sound and not backdoored, if the client supposedly doing the encryption is proprietary and obfuscated? The encryption might even be done on the server side, leaving open an obvious backdoor to get at the unencrypted data, while still technically satisfying the claim that your data is encrypted.)
I am looking forward to live video and video conferencing with KDE, as we do on my cellphone with facebook.
There are already Free as in speech video conferencing applications. The issue is that both sides need to use them and that hardly anybody does. The Free Software applications are typically interoperable with each other, using one of a handful open standards to communicate, but that does not help if everybody is using some proprietary walled garden with vendor lock-in such as Skype or WhatsApp.
I expect that many cellphone functions will arrive onto Linux and be functioning with KDE or (gasp) Gnome.
It would be nice to have some of that functionality, but only if it is implemented in a way that does not destroy our freedom, security, and privacy.
Kevin Kofler
Hi KevinYou are right about security. I was an owner of a security business catering to banks.I am retired for 6 years now. I worked for 55 years in industry as scientist, business analyst,security analyst and business owner.
Regarding security=============== KDE is insecure. Any user can change his settings and he can wipe out any way to use his logon.Why is KDE not root managed for every user and to not allow the user to change anything? Security begins by protecting the user from damaging his own environment.
At what level is there a security risk? Most of those IOT devices do not need security. The "System On A Chip" (SOC) is strictly function limited.Its not a re-programmable computer. That box I discussed has a range for the remote control to 30 feet or about 10 meters. The IOT devices we are looking at are bluetooth connected. No WWW connection.
With today's technology and future design, I am not and will not be able to manage my neighbours IOTs.My IOT devices are mac address is hard wired. Same for the other IOT devices. Functionality is limited. An IOT example is the USB dongle for your keyboard and mouse. The CPUs in these devices are not programmable, they are controllers.
I have a digital weather station mounted on my wall. It synchronizes to the atomic clock time daily,and displays local temperature and barometric pressure. I can query it with my cellphone. Can someone defeat that IOT device? Yes, but for what benefit? My FM radio is digital. Its function is limited.
Most IOT things, by being limited in functionalty are secure. I would surmise that RedHat sees the disappearance of the menu and the use of icons for top level management.We do that with KDE, where we move icons to the desktop and to the panels. KDE will morph into something even better, responding to we users needs. And it will be secure.
Regards Leslie Leslie Satenstein Montréal Québec, Canada
On Saturday, November 3, 2018, 11:40:28 p.m. EDT, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
You are confirming exactly what I wrote:
Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
We have a 3 inch by 3 inch android box for our TV. I have 2000 channels, and many options for email setup, youtube, movies, etc.It can accept a keyboard as a remote wireless device. It is an excellent IOT.
That box has no hard disk, just some ram for cache and buffering and a SOC (software on a chip) Cost in Canada --$100.00
When you have a security hole on that device, you have no way to fix it.
Amazon and Google sell andoid devices that take speech and provide results.
All the commands you give to those devices are sent to Amazon's or Google's servers for processing. They can be given to a human (that happens more often than you realize, the automatic voice recognition is nowhere near as good as they claim, so they have many dictation typers), automatically used to control advertising, etc. And the device can even mishear the trigger ("Alexa" or "Hey Google") when you haven't even said it and then start recording and sending everything you say to the company. There are documented cases of that happening.
With those devices, you can see a whole range of new applications, such as refrigerator alarms, etc.
But also a whole range of security holes and privacy invasions.
There is no worry if the IOT is locked source. The android app is in JS, and can be reprogrammed for use under Linux.
Can you even access that JavaScript as a user and is it legal to modify it? If it were so easy to make it work under GNU/Linux, why do you need Android at all?
They also use the cloud for hard disk storage.
That means they are sending all their private data to some external provider who can read everything! (Even if they claim to encrypt the data, can you verify that, and also that the encryption is sound and not backdoored, if the client supposedly doing the encryption is proprietary and obfuscated? The encryption might even be done on the server side, leaving open an obvious backdoor to get at the unencrypted data, while still technically satisfying the claim that your data is encrypted.)
I am looking forward to live video and video conferencing with KDE, as we do on my cellphone with facebook.
There are already Free as in speech video conferencing applications. The issue is that both sides need to use them and that hardly anybody does. The Free Software applications are typically interoperable with each other, using one of a handful open standards to communicate, but that does not help if everybody is using some proprietary walled garden with vendor lock-in such as Skype or WhatsApp.
I expect that many cellphone functions will arrive onto Linux and be functioning with KDE or (gasp) Gnome.
It would be nice to have some of that functionality, but only if it is implemented in a way that does not destroy our freedom, security, and privacy.
Kevin Kofler _______________________________________________ kde mailing list -- kde@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 22:11:20 -0400, you wrote:
I suggest to this community that we have arrived at a crisis. In six years, according to /The Register/, Red Hat Enterprise Linux /will not support/ a KDE installation or maintenance.
I would argue that this is a benefit to KDE on RHEL.
The Desktop enviornment is really inherently unsuited to the long term unchanging RHEL (or LTS from others) where the changes year to year are simply too significant to allow a 4+ year old installation to remain relevant.
By removing KDE from RHEL 8 this makes it easier for somone like the Fedora KDE group to provide KDE in a form that remains relevant through the lifecycle of RHEL 8. Unless a company using RHEL really, really wants that Desktop support they may well find the KDE option (perhaps on a more corporate friendly 12 month cycle instead of the Fedora 6 month, who knows) to be a better option than the Gnome installation that will at some point become hopelessly out of date.
On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 10:21 PM Gerald Henriksen ghenriks@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 22:11:20 -0400, you wrote:
I suggest to this community that we have arrived at a crisis. In six years, according to /The Register/, Red Hat Enterprise Linux /will not support/ a KDE installation or maintenance.
I would argue that this is a benefit to KDE on RHEL.
The Desktop enviornment is really inherently unsuited to the long term unchanging RHEL (or LTS from others) where the changes year to year are simply too significant to allow a 4+ year old installation to remain relevant.
If it was unchanging in RHEL, I'd agree with you...
By removing KDE from RHEL 8 this makes it easier for somone like the Fedora KDE group to provide KDE in a form that remains relevant through the lifecycle of RHEL 8. Unless a company using RHEL really, really wants that Desktop support they may well find the KDE option (perhaps on a more corporate friendly 12 month cycle instead of the Fedora 6 month, who knows) to be a better option than the Gnome installation that will at some point become hopelessly out of date.
I would agree with you, except Red Hat has been rebasing GNOME every other RHEL 7 point release (basically, once a year). As of RHEL 7.6, the version of GNOME shipped in RHEL 7 is v3.28, which is what shipped in Fedora 28...
They did actually give the same treatment to KDE (bump from 4.8 to 4.14). But, KDE SC 4 went EOL and Plasma 5 became the focus of the KDE community in 2015, so that was the end of the line for RHEL 7.
I can't fault Red Hat for pulling out of KDE, since even I've had trouble "keeping the faith" until Plasma 5.8, where it seemed like things finally stopped breaking on each upgrade. I do wish that they hadn't let go their KDE engineers over the last couple of years, though. It was nice having Red Hat engineers care about KDE a little bit...
However, we're in a great spot in Plasma 5 now, Providing KDE Plasma 5 in EPEL for EL7 may be possible if Red Hat rebases Qt 5 to 5.12 LTS once it releases. As for EL8, we'll have to wait and see...
By removing KDE from RHEL 8 this makes it easier for somone like the Fedora KDE group to provide KDE in a form that remains relevant through the lifecycle of RHEL 8. Unless a company using RHEL really, really wants that Desktop support they may well find the KDE option (perhaps on a more corporate friendly 12 month cycle instead of the Fedora 6 month, who knows) to be a better option than the Gnome installation that will at some point become hopelessly out of date.
Keep KDE available (and maybe in sync with the version available in Fedora) in RHEL8 via EPEL sound good, but also sound like a lot of work, just curious to know is there are available some numbers about the KDE usage in RHEL to see the value to ship Plasma via EPEL.
Regards William
I can say that in my business (Aerospace) we use KDE variants in Redhat all over the place.
pailott
On 11/5/2018 11:49, William Moreno wrote:
By removing KDE from RHEL 8 this makes it easier for somone like the Fedora KDE group to provide KDE in a form that remains relevant through the lifecycle of RHEL 8. Unless a company using RHEL really, really wants that Desktop support they may well find the KDE option (perhaps on a more corporate friendly 12 month cycle instead of the Fedora 6 month, who knows) to be a better option than the Gnome installation that will at some point become hopelessly out of date.Keep KDE available (and maybe in sync with the version available in Fedora) in RHEL8 via EPEL sound good, but also sound like a lot of work, just curious to know is there are available some numbers about the KDE usage in RHEL to see the value to ship Plasma via EPEL.
Regards William
kde mailing list -- kde@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kde@lists.fedoraproject.org
On Mon, 5 Nov 2018 13:49:16 -0600, you wrote:
Keep KDE available (and maybe in sync with the version available in Fedora) in RHEL8 via EPEL sound good, but also sound like a lot of work, just curious to know is there are available some numbers about the KDE usage in RHEL to see the value to ship Plasma via EPEL.
Any numbers available you would likely (negatively) influenced by RHEL 7 using KDE 4.
Also need to consider possible usage by people running CentOS and other clones where getting stats would likely be even harder.
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Ilott -
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Leslie S Satenstein -
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p g -
p. g.
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Reindl Harald -
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William Moreno