6:46 a.m.
Great to see that Wayland is working very well with KDE now!
On the minus side, I've just bought a Logitech MX Master 3S mouse
(expensive but I *love* it!), which works marvellously on X11 but is
quite laggy under Wayland. The screen pointer frequently stops while
the mouse is moving. Is there a setting that would fix this?
As for the plus, the first one is that seemed to be the only obvious
reason not to stick with Wayland.
Secondly, I tried Wayland because I was getting a failure on X11 with a
webkit based program. It gave me an excuse to (re)try Wayland, and IT
WORKED!
While that was marvellous, it made me wonder if there was anything I
could do to get it working under X11. The error messages were
KMS: DRM_IOCTL_MODE_CREATE_DUMB failed: Permission denied
Failed to create GBM buffer of size 800x573: Permission denied
KMS: DRM_IOCTL_MODE_CREATE_DUMB failed: Permission denied
Failed to create GBM buffer of size 800x573: Permission denied
KMS: DRM_IOCTL_MODE_CREATE_DUMB failed: Permission denied
Failed to create GBM buffer of size 800x573: Permission denied
Failed to create EGL images for DMABufs with file descriptors -1, -1
and -1
I found various reports of this on the interweb, mostly suggesting that
it was to do with NVidia drivers (I have an NVidia Geforce GT 710
card), but clearly I've got a functioning version because Wayland found
it. Is there any way to get X11 to use the same driver?
My system is using akmod-nvidia-470xx version 470.223.02.
It does have a later version, 550.54.14, but this is "only" akmod-
nvidia", suggesting it's not specific for my card?
3:12 p.m.
On 16/03/2024 11:46, Mark @ GMail wrote:
Great to see that Wayland is working very well with KDE now!
On the minus side, I've just bought a Logitech MX Master 3S mouse
(expensive but I *love* it!), which works marvellously on X11 but is
quite laggy under Wayland. The screen pointer frequently stops while
the mouse is moving. Is there a setting that would fix this?
As for the plus, the first one is that seemed to be the only obvious
reason not to stick with Wayland.
Secondly, I tried Wayland because I was getting a failure on X11 with a
webkit based program. It gave me an excuse to (re)try Wayland, and IT
WORKED!
While that was marvellous, it made me wonder if there was anything I
could do to get it working under X11. The error messages were
KMS: DRM_IOCTL_MODE_CREATE_DUMB failed: Permission denied
Failed to create GBM buffer of size 800x573: Permission denied
KMS: DRM_IOCTL_MODE_CREATE_DUMB failed: Permission denied
Failed to create GBM buffer of size 800x573: Permission denied
KMS: DRM_IOCTL_MODE_CREATE_DUMB failed: Permission denied
Failed to create GBM buffer of size 800x573: Permission denied
Failed to create EGL images for DMABufs with file descriptors -1, -1
and -1
I found various reports of this on the interweb, mostly suggesting that
it was to do with NVidia drivers (I have an NVidia Geforce GT 710
card), but clearly I've got a functioning version because Wayland found
it. Is there any way to get X11 to use the same driver?
My system is using akmod-nvidia-470xx version 470.223.02.
It does have a later version, 550.54.14, but this is "only" akmod-
nvidia", suggesting it's not specific for my card?I have
I have two boxes running kde and X11 in F38 with nVidia GT 710 cards and
rpmfusion 470xx drivers. They worked well until a few weeks ago when
one box started reporting graphics resets in Kwin, which I posted about
here. I'm still seeing them, usually with a quick autorecovery. I
haven't yet tried nouveau.
But it has been my understanding that 470xx doesn't fully support
Wayland. Today I tried a Wayland login, but was consistently returned
to the login screen. X11 is still mainly ok. I'm wondering why Wayland
is working for you.
John P
4:34 p.m.
Sorry to top post but I can’t help it.
Just to fill the picture, I find wayland pretty much unusable. I’m on a very standard
hardware, an hp probook with an I5 and intel graphic. I can login, and run programs, but
window manager places windows where it feels like, except where program asks it to place
it. Other small things not working, working wrongly or just missing.
No good for anything else than evaluation. It should be more efficient than X11, but my
measurements do not show any difference when running apps.
I’ll stick to X11 until wayland becomes a tool and not a toy.
Giuliano
Inviato da iPhone
Il giorno 16 mar 2024, alle ore 21:13, John Pilkington
<johnpilk222(a)gmail.com> ha scritto:
On 16/03/2024 11:46, Mark @ GMail wrote:
> Great to see that Wayland is working very well with KDE now!
> On the minus side, I've just bought a Logitech MX Master 3S mouse
> (expensive but I *love* it!), which works marvellously on X11 but is
> quite laggy under Wayland. The screen pointer frequently stops while
> the mouse is moving. Is there a setting that would fix this?
> As for the plus, the first one is that seemed to be the only obvious
> reason not to stick with Wayland.
> Secondly, I tried Wayland because I was getting a failure on X11 with a
> webkit based program. It gave me an excuse to (re)try Wayland, and IT
> WORKED!
> While that was marvellous, it made me wonder if there was anything I
> could do to get it working under X11. The error messages were
> KMS: DRM_IOCTL_MODE_CREATE_DUMB failed: Permission denied
> Failed to create GBM buffer of size 800x573: Permission denied
> KMS: DRM_IOCTL_MODE_CREATE_DUMB failed: Permission denied
> Failed to create GBM buffer of size 800x573: Permission denied
> KMS: DRM_IOCTL_MODE_CREATE_DUMB failed: Permission denied
> Failed to create GBM buffer of size 800x573: Permission denied
> Failed to create EGL images for DMABufs with file descriptors -1, -1
> and -1
> I found various reports of this on the interweb, mostly suggesting that
> it was to do with NVidia drivers (I have an NVidia Geforce GT 710
> card), but clearly I've got a functioning version because Wayland found
> it. Is there any way to get X11 to use the same driver?
> My system is using akmod-nvidia-470xx version 470.223.02.
> It does have a later version, 550.54.14, but this is "only" akmod-
> nvidia", suggesting it's not specific for my card?I have
I have two boxes running kde and X11 in F38 with nVidia GT 710 cards and rpmfusion 470xx
drivers. They worked well until a few weeks ago when one box started reporting graphics
resets in Kwin, which I posted about here. I'm still seeing them, usually with a
quick autorecovery. I haven't yet tried nouveau.
But it has been my understanding that 470xx doesn't fully support Wayland. Today I
tried a Wayland login, but was consistently returned to the login screen. X11 is still
mainly ok. I'm wondering why Wayland is working for you.
John P
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6:42 p.m.
Sorry to top post but I can’t help it.
Just to fill the picture, I find wayland pretty much unusable. I’m on a very standard
hardware, an hp probook with an I5 and intel graphic. I can login, and run programs, but
window manager places windows where it feels like, except where program asks it to place
it. Other small things not working, working wrongly or just missing.
No good for anything else than evaluation. It should be more efficient than X11, but my
measurements do not show any difference when running apps.
I’ll stick to X11 until wayland becomes a tool and not a toy.
Giuliano
Inviato da iPhone
I use Wayland every day on my laptop which has an Intel CPU and Intel graphics card.
I'm not sure why it's causing problems for you. It might be helpful to file a bug
report so that the developers can investigate the issue further. They may need additional
information about your hardware, software, or Linux kernel to identify the problem.
10:10 a.m.
On Sat, 2024-03-16 at 20:12 +0000, John Pilkington wrote:
But it has been my understanding that 470xx doesn't fully support
Wayland. Today I tried a Wayland login, but was consistently
returned
to the login screen. X11 is still mainly ok. I'm wondering why
Wayland
is working for you.
Dunno if it's what's making the difference, but I'm running F39.
6:35 p.m.
Hello, first of all you are using EOL (End-of-life) card
(https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3473/~/eol-windows-dr...)
Secondly, "akmod-nvidia" is the latest Nvidia driver but your card on the Nvidia
website driver version is "470.239.06" so you can't use the Nvidia 5XX
driver properly. And better Wayland support with Nvidia started as far as I know the
driver. version 525. That's technically not KDE or Fedora KDE people's problem.
The best I can say use open source driver or X11
About the mouse, I use the exact mouse and I have zero problem at Wayland.
> I found various reports of this on the interweb, mostly suggesting that
> it was to do with NVidia drivers (I have an NVidia Geforce GT 710
> card), but clearly I've got a functioning version because Wayland found
> it. Is there any way to get X11 to use the same driver?
>
> My system is using akmod-nvidia-470xx version 470.223.02.
> It does have a later version, 550.54.14, but this is "only" akmod-
> nvidia", suggesting it's not specific for my card?
8:13 a.m.
Thanks for your reply
On Sat, 2024-03-16 at 23:35 +0000, Onuralp SEZER wrote:
Hello, first of all you are using EOL (End-of-life) card
(https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3473/~/eol-windo
ws-driver-support-for-legacy-products)
Errr, really? Firstly that's talking about windows drivers, then it
shows the 710A not the 710 I've got, and thirdly, looking for drivers
for the GeForce GT 710 for linux, the latest one was released 2024-02-
22, which doesn't sound very EOL, though I s'pose it might "just" be a
major bugfix. It's still not a 5xx series though.
Secondly, "akmod-nvidia" is the latest Nvidia driver but
your card on
the Nvidia website driver version is "470.239.06" so you can't use
the Nvidia 5XX driver properly. And better Wayland support with
Nvidia started as far as I know the driver. version 525. That's
technically not KDE or Fedora KDE people's problem. The best I can
say use open source driver or X11
About the mouse, I use the exact mouse and I have zero problem at
Wayland.
Although I didn't look very hard, the mouse display pointer was the
only problem I saw. Any idea of how good the open source driver is in
this situation?
8:15 a.m.
On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 6:13 AM Mark @ GMail <mrkr.st(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for your reply
On Sat, 2024-03-16 at 23:35 +0000, Onuralp SEZER wrote:
>
> Hello, first of all you are using EOL (End-of-life) card
> (https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3473/~/eol-windo
> ws-driver-support-for-legacy-products)
Errr, really? Firstly that's talking about windows drivers, then it
shows the 710A not the 710 I've got, and thirdly, looking for drivers
for the GeForce GT 710 for linux, the latest one was released 2024-02-
22, which doesn't sound very EOL, though I s'pose it might "just" be a
major bugfix. It's still not a 5xx series though.
NVIDIA will be discontinuing the 470 series driver later this year:
https://endoflife.date/nvidia
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
8:57 a.m.
On Sun, 2024-03-17 at 06:15 -0700, Neal Gompa wrote:
NVIDIA will be discontinuing the 470 series driver later this year:
https://endoflife.date/nvidia
I feel like I'm asking the wrong questions here. I don't particularly
want a 470 driver, just the latest driver. The nVidia website shows
the latest version as 470.239.06, but that's later than what the Fedora
repo seems to offer.
It sounds like what I *really* need is a 5xx driver, beyond 525
according to Onuralp, and perhaps just to use the 550 driver that's
already on my system. The question is, will this drive the card?
Mark
9:04 a.m.
On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 6:58 AM Mark @ GMail <mrkr.st(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 2024-03-17 at 06:15 -0700, Neal Gompa wrote:
> NVIDIA will be discontinuing the 470 series driver later this year:
> https://endoflife.date/nvidia
>
I feel like I'm asking the wrong questions here. I don't particularly
want a 470 driver, just the latest driver. The nVidia website shows
the latest version as 470.239.06, but that's later than what the Fedora
repo seems to offer.
It sounds like what I *really* need is a 5xx driver, beyond 525
according to Onuralp, and perhaps just to use the 550 driver that's
already on my system. The question is, will this drive the card?
No. Your card is too old. You'd have to upgrade your card to use newer
drivers. If you get a Turing or newer (GTX 1600 or RTX 2000 or newer)
card, then you can either choose to use the latest proprietary NVIDIA
driver or the new Nouveau+NVK stack built into the operating system.
However your current card is so old that it probably works reasonably
okay with nouveau too. The troublesome cards where you *must* use the
proprietary driver are the GTX 900 and the GTX 1000 cards.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
10:09 a.m.
On Sun, 2024-03-17 at 07:04 -0700, Neal Gompa wrote:
No. Your card is too old. You'd have to upgrade your card to use
newer
drivers. If you get a Turing or newer (GTX 1600 or RTX 2000 or newer)
card, then you can either choose to use the latest proprietary NVIDIA
driver or the new Nouveau+NVK stack built into the operating system.
However your current card is so old that it probably works reasonably
okay with nouveau too. The troublesome cards where you *must* use the
proprietary driver are the GTX 900 and the GTX 1000 cards.
Yes, I see now it's 10 years old! :=(
I put my money into the processor (AMD Ryzen 7 3800X) when I bought
this machine, I don't really need powerful graphics, the 710 might've
been the most sensible cheapest option, I don't remember.
Is the newest 470 driver (239.06) likely to arrive in the Fedora repo?
M
11:58 a.m.
Mark composed on 2024-03-17 15:09 (UTC):
Yes, I see now it's 10 years old! :=(
I put my money into the processor (AMD Ryzen 7 3800X) when I bought
this machine, I don't really need powerful graphics, the 710 might've
been the most sensible cheapest option, I don't remember.
If you "don't really need powerful graphics", then you don't really need
the pain
of a premium priced GPU for which fully capable FOSS drivers never exist, do you?
--
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata
2:41 p.m.
On 17/03/2024 16:58, Felix Miata wrote:
Mark composed on 2024-03-17 15:09 (UTC):
> Yes, I see now it's 10 years old! :=(
> I put my money into the processor (AMD Ryzen 7 3800X) when I bought
> this machine, I don't really need powerful graphics, the 710 might've
> been the most sensible cheapest option, I don't remember.
If you "don't really need powerful graphics", then you don't really
need the pain
of a premium priced GPU for which fully capable FOSS drivers never exist, do you?
My recollection is that the GeForce GT 710 with driver built by
rpmfusion provided non-gaming but TV-capable performance through VGA and
HDMI ports at a less-than-premium price. It would be good to have a
build of the recent update.
John P
5:41 p.m.
On 3/17/2024 3:41 PM, John Pilkington wrote:
On 17/03/2024 16:58, Felix Miata wrote:
> Mark composed on 2024-03-17 15:09 (UTC):
>
>> Yes, I see now it's 10 years old! :=(
>> I put my money into the processor (AMD Ryzen 7 3800X) when I bought
>> this machine, I don't really need powerful graphics, the 710 might've
>> been the most sensible cheapest option, I don't remember.
>
> If you "don't really need powerful graphics", then you don't really
> need the pain
> of a premium priced GPU for which fully capable FOSS drivers never
> exist, do you?
My recollection is that the GeForce GT 710 with driver built by
rpmfusion provided non-gaming but TV-capable performance through VGA and
HDMI ports at a less-than-premium price. It would be good to have a
build of the recent update.
John P
I have an old machine with a GT720 that recently quit working with the
Nvidia drivers. I was pleasantly surprised that it finally was working
well with the nouveau driver, which simplified updating considerably. I
am presently running Wayland on it, and the main complaint is that I
can't set where a particular window will open consistently. I also have
a more recent machine with a much newer nvidia card, and there nouveau
still hangs (unpredictably), so I am still using the nvidia drivers
there, but I am using Wayland. I have both machines using F39 and KDE.
--
Lester Petrie
8:37 a.m.
On 17/03/2024 22:41, Lester Petrie wrote:
On 3/17/2024 3:41 PM, John Pilkington wrote:
>
> My recollection is that the GeForce GT 710 with driver built by
> rpmfusion provided non-gaming but TV-capable performance through VGA
> and HDMI ports at a less-than-premium price. It would be good to have
> a build of the recent update.
>
> John P
I have an old machine with a GT720 that recently quit working with the
Nvidia drivers. I was pleasantly surprised that it finally was working
well with the nouveau driver, which simplified updating considerably. I
am presently running Wayland on it, and the main complaint is that I
can't set where a particular window will open consistently. I also have
a more recent machine with a much newer nvidia card, and there nouveau
still hangs (unpredictably), so I am still using the nvidia drivers
there, but I am using Wayland. I have both machines using F39 and KDE.
FWIW I tried to switch to nouveau, but didn't get a good result.
instead of two adjacent windows I got only one default display, 1024 pix
wide, and greyed-out config options. Fortunately I never lost all
graphics and was able to restore the 470xx build with its original X11
settings. It's still notifying occasional resets. Maybe I'll try going
round again...
3:31 a.m.
On 17 Mar 2024, at 15:10, mrkr.st(a)gmail.com wrote:
Is the newest 470 driver (239.06) likely to arrive in the Fedora repo?
I would assume it will be packaged eventually, but that will not give you wayland
support.
Personally I moved from nvidia to amdgpu to escape from the need for these closed source
drivers.
I was on a rtx3060 now on rx7800 and loving the improvement in driver support and app
performance. I play games on rpmfusion steam.
I use f39 kde wayland as my main OS/DE. Also been testing f40 plasma 6.
Both work well, except for the known windows placement issues.
Barry
6:46 a.m.
On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 8:10 AM Mark @ GMail <mrkr.st(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 2024-03-17 at 07:04 -0700, Neal Gompa wrote:
> No. Your card is too old. You'd have to upgrade your card to use
> newer
> drivers. If you get a Turing or newer (GTX 1600 or RTX 2000 or newer)
> card, then you can either choose to use the latest proprietary NVIDIA
> driver or the new Nouveau+NVK stack built into the operating system.
> However your current card is so old that it probably works reasonably
> okay with nouveau too. The troublesome cards where you *must* use the
> proprietary driver are the GTX 900 and the GTX 1000 cards.
Yes, I see now it's 10 years old! :=(
I put my money into the processor (AMD Ryzen 7 3800X) when I bought
this machine, I don't really need powerful graphics, the 710 might've
been the most sensible cheapest option, I don't remember.
Is the newest 470 driver (239.06) likely to arrive in the Fedora repo?
You might want to consider getting a low-cost AMD graphics card, there
are plenty of RDNA2 GPUs at around $100 now.
Alternatively, if your computer supports SAM (Smart Access Memory) or
ReBAR (Resizable BAR) in the BIOS (or through a BIOS update for the
motherboard), then an Intel Arc A380 is usually around $100 too.
Both will perform significantly better and get you out of the hole of
legacy NVIDIA drivers that are going to EOL.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
10:41 a.m.
On 3/18/24 7:46 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 8:10 AM Mark @ GMail
<mrkr.st(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2024-03-17 at 07:04 -0700, Neal Gompa wrote:
>> No. Your card is too old. You'd have to upgrade your card to use
>> newer
>> drivers. If you get a Turing or newer (GTX 1600 or RTX 2000 or newer)
>> card, then you can either choose to use the latest proprietary NVIDIA
>> driver or the new Nouveau+NVK stack built into the operating system.
>> However your current card is so old that it probably works reasonably
>> okay with nouveau too. The troublesome cards where you *must* use the
>> proprietary driver are the GTX 900 and the GTX 1000 cards.
> Yes, I see now it's 10 years old! :=(
> I put my money into the processor (AMD Ryzen 7 3800X) when I bought
> this machine, I don't really need powerful graphics, the 710 might've
> been the most sensible cheapest option, I don't remember.
>
> Is the newest 470 driver (239.06) likely to arrive in the Fedora repo?
You might want to consider getting a low-cost AMD graphics card, there
are plenty of RDNA2 GPUs at around $100 now.
Alternatively, if your computer supports SAM (Smart Access Memory) or
ReBAR (Resizable BAR) in the BIOS (or through a BIOS update for the
motherboard), then an Intel Arc A380 is usually around $100 too.
Both will perform significantly better and get you out of the hole of
legacy NVIDIA drivers that are going to EOL.
While looking for a new card to upgrade from a 710, I was finding that
current cards were demanding a power supply upgrade as well
6:49 a.m.
On 19 Mar 2024, at 15:42, Robert McBroom
<robert.mcbroom(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
While looking for a new card to upgrade from a 710, I was finding that current cards were
demanding a power supply upgrade as well
Not only a power supply upgrade but you may also need a better case to improve the air
flow for cooling. I had a 850W supply but the case needed upgrading to have enough fans to
push air through it.
But if you do not need gamer graphics pick a lower spec card.
Barry
7:30 a.m.
On Wed, 2024-03-20 at 11:49 +0000, Barry wrote:
> On 19 Mar 2024, at 15:42, Robert McBroom <robert.mcbroom(a)yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> While looking for a new card to upgrade from a 710, I was finding
> that current cards were demanding a power supply upgrade as well
Not only a power supply upgrade but you may also need a better case
to improve the air flow for cooling. I had a 850W supply but the case
needed upgrading to have enough fans to push air through it.
But if you do not need gamer graphics pick a lower spec card.
I realise this is too late for the OP but for all but the most
demanding graphics an internal GPU is still a good option.
poc
8:04 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 8:30 AM Patrick O'Callaghan
<pocallaghan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 2024-03-20 at 11:49 +0000, Barry wrote:
>
>
> > On 19 Mar 2024, at 15:42, Robert McBroom <robert.mcbroom(a)yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > While looking for a new card to upgrade from a 710, I was finding
> > that current cards were demanding a power supply upgrade as well
>
> Not only a power supply upgrade but you may also need a better case
> to improve the air flow for cooling. I had a 850W supply but the case
> needed upgrading to have enough fans to push air through it.
>
> But if you do not need gamer graphics pick a lower spec card.
I realise this is too late for the OP but for all but the most
demanding graphics an internal GPU is still a good option.
In fact, consider upgrading to a Ryzen 5700G, it's socket compatible,
uses *less* power, should cost very little, and has integrated Radeon
graphics.
The end result should even save you on your electricity bill.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
12:07 p.m.
On Wed, 2024-03-20 at 09:04 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 8:30 AM Patrick O'Callaghan
<pocallaghan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2024-03-20 at 11:49 +0000, Barry wrote:
> >
> >
> > > On 19 Mar 2024, at 15:42, Robert McBroom
> > > <robert.mcbroom(a)yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > While looking for a new card to upgrade from a 710, I was
> > > finding
> > > that current cards were demanding a power supply upgrade as
> > > well
> >
> > Not only a power supply upgrade but you may also need a better
> > case
> > to improve the air flow for cooling. I had a 850W supply but the
> > case
> > needed upgrading to have enough fans to push air through it.
> >
> > But if you do not need gamer graphics pick a lower spec card.
>
> I realise this is too late for the OP but for all but the most
> demanding graphics an internal GPU is still a good option.
>
In fact, consider upgrading to a Ryzen 5700G, it's socket compatible,
uses *less* power, should cost very little, and has integrated Radeon
graphics.
The end result should even save you on your electricity bill.
Plus you get the option of adding a GPU later if need be, which in turn
will enable you to run PCI passthrough and run a Windows VM with real
graphics drivers, e.g. for gaming. I used to do that but haven't needed
it for some time now.
poc
8:23 a.m.
On Wed, 2024-03-20 at 12:30 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I realise this is too late for the OP but for all but the most
demanding graphics an internal GPU is still a good option.
poc
Not entirely too late, but not relevant I'm afraid. The AMD Ryzen 7
3800X doesn't have an onboard GPU :-(
Thanks anyway.
M
12:05 p.m.
On Wed, 2024-03-20 at 13:23 +0000, Mark @ GMail wrote:
On Wed, 2024-03-20 at 12:30 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> I realise this is too late for the OP but for all but the most
> demanding graphics an internal GPU is still a good option.
>
> poc
Not entirely too late, but not relevant I'm afraid. The AMD Ryzen 7
3800X doesn't have an onboard GPU :-(
Yes I know (I did check before posting).
poc
50
days inactive
54
days old
24 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Barry -
Felix Miata -
Giuliano Colla -
John Pilkington -
Lester Petrie -
Mark ＠ GMail -
Neal Gompa -
Onuralp SEZER -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Robert McBroom