3:15 p.m.
The new docs.fp.o interface seems to be faster than the later one to
reach an online book.
But some translations seems to have got lost in the process of the
move from the old interface.
The books are:
1. Installation Guide for F11
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/es-ES/html-single/
2. Installation quick start guide for F11
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/installation-quick-start-guide/f11/es-ES/ht...
The strings with no translations are some of the index and the common content.
Remember that Fedora 11 is the current Fedora stable distribution, and
the one I would use if I need linux in an enterprise.
kind regards
Domingo Becker (es)
1:56 a.m.
(Repeating some comments because I just realised that this morning I
replied only to the docs-list, not to trans-list as well... and merging
some of your comments from two separate emails)
On 10/06/2009 06:15 AM, Domingo Becker wrote:
The new docs.fp.o interface seems to be faster than the later one to
reach an online book.
Thanks! :) Congratulations go to Ryan Lerch for the fantastic redesign :)
But some translations seems to have got lost in the process of the
move from the old interface.
No books were actually changed; only the main index page. Therefore, any
errors in any books were already there. In the case of the Installation
Guide, since 19 June [1]; and in the case of the Installation Quick
Start Guide, since 6 August [2].
The books are:
1. Installation Guide for F11
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/es-ES/html-single/
2. Installation quick start guide for F11
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/installation-quick-start-guide/f11/es-ES/ht...
The strings with no translations are some of the index
Entries in the indexes of Publican books come directly from the titles
of chapters and sections; entries appear in English in the index of the
Spanish books because, unfortunately, they also appear in English in the
chapters and sections themselves: for example, look at the headings on
these pages:
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/es-ES/html/s1-langselecti...
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/es-ES/html/ch07s12.html
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/es-ES/html/sn-networkconf...
These missing strings are sadly the result of the complicated process
that we must follow at the moment to merge all of Publican's many small
PO files together into one big PO file for Transifex, then splitting the
big PO file back into many small PO files to build in Publican. Let's
look at the first example: "7.11. Language Selection"
Here is the XML file that holds the English title:
http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/install-guide.git?p=docs/install-gui...
Publican transforms this whole XML file into a POT file ("make
update-pot"):
http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/install-guide.git?p=docs/install-gui...
And then into a PO file for Spanish ("make update-po-es-ES"):
http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/install-guide.git?p=docs/install-gui...
-- note that Publican has matched this string as a fuzzy with an
(incorrect) other string that it found elsewhere.
The Installation Guide contains several hundred separate PO files. To
make the book available in Transifex, we have to merge them together
into one big PO file. In the Docs project, we have been using (for
example) "msgcat -u -o es.po *.po" within Publican's es-ES directory to
prepare these big PO files.
However, for some reason, some strings get lost sometimes. If you look
at the es.po file generated with this method, you will see that this
string is missing:
http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/docs/install-guide.git?p=docs/install-gui...
-- I would expect to find it around line 16096, but it isn't there... :(
Please file a bug against the Fedora 11 Installation Guide so that we
have a record that this happened.
If anyone knows of a more reliable method or tool to merge the many
small PO files into a single, big PO file, please say so!
I also seem to recall seeing problems in the other direction; some
strings that were translated in the big PO files were sometimes lost
while splitting them into many small PO files -- I can't think of an
example right now, but someone else might remember?
and the common content.
As far as I can tell. the only part of the Common Content that ever
appeared in English was the Legal Notice, which always appears in
English, for legal reasons. Was there something else wrong?
On 10/06/2009 06:56 AM, Domingo Becker wrote:
The new option "autostep --autoscreenshot" in the kickstart
file would
probably make it ease to get the localized screenshots included in the
Install Guide.
Don't hesitate to ask translators to get those screenshots.
Thanks! I'll probably need some of that help when the F12 Beta becomes
available.
For Fedora 11 Install Guide they are all in English. We can improve
that. :-)
Actually, no, the F11 Installation Guide screenshots were all localised
(to the extent that anaconda itself was). I remember taking something
like 60 screenshots per language in around 40 languages... Take a browse
through the test builds here:
http://rlandmann.fedorapeople.org/Installation%20Guide/
Of course, the degree of localisation depends on the degree of
localisation in anaconda. For example, the text of this screen appears
in English:
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/es-ES/html/ch07s12.html
But if you notice the "Atrás" and "Siguiente" buttons, you will see
that
this is actually a Spanish installation of Fedora. Hopefully, this is
fixed in Fedora 12.... :)
Of course, with so many screenshots and so many languages, it's quite
possible I made some mistakes here and there. For example, I just
realised that I used the wrong screenshot for the "Keyboard selection"
screen in Spanish, and have fixed this -- the changes should appear on
the website the next time that the server synchronises with the docs
repo. If you notice any other wrong images, please let me know on f-t-l,
f-d-l, in email, or in a bug -- there are lots of ways to reach me ;)
Kind regards, and thank you, as always for the amazing work that you
guys do. Sorry that our tools are still letting you down sometimes.
Cheers
Ruediger
[1]
http://cvs.fedora.redhat.com/viewvc/web/html/docs/install-guide/f11/es-ES...
[2]
http://cvs.fedora.redhat.com/viewvc/web/html/docs/installation-quick-star...
7:22 a.m.
2009/10/6 Ruediger Landmann <r.landmann(a)redhat.com>:
No books were actually changed; only the main index page. Therefore, any
errors in any books were already there. In the case of the Installation
Guide, since 19 June [1]; and in the case of the Installation Quick Start
Guide, since 6 August [2].
I remember that. I remember I have asked that before.
If it's possible to correct it, please do so.
If you need some more extra work from us, just let us know.
Please file a bug against the Fedora 11 Installation Guide so that we have a
record that this happened.
Ok, I'll file a bug report.
If anyone knows of a more reliable method or tool to merge the many
small PO
files into a single, big PO file, please say so!
I also seem to recall seeing problems in the other direction; some strings
that were translated in the big PO files were sometimes lost while splitting
them into many small PO files -- I can't think of an example right now, but
someone else might remember?
> and the common content.
As far as I can tell. the only part of the Common Content that ever appeared
in English was the Legal Notice, which always appears in English, for legal
reasons. Was there something else wrong?
No. It seems it's in English for the new books.
Take a look at [1]
If there are legal issues about this, then leave it like this.
Otherwise, it would be better to have that localised.
I know a wrong translation here would be a problem. But if a
translator has doubts, then it's better to leave it untranslated.
[1] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f10/es/sn-legalnotice.html
Of course, the degree of localisation depends on the degree of localisation
in anaconda.
So, the problem is in anaconda. I'll take a closer look today, I have
to install Fedora on a desktop computer for production. I will file a
bug report against anaconda so they include those strings too in the
pot file.
Of course, with so many screenshots and so many languages, it's
quite
possible I made some mistakes here and there.
That's why I say that you probably will need our help.
We (translators) are more interested than anyone else in its accuracy.
So let us know, we'll be glad to help you.
The big pot file issue is solved in the next Transifex, that is not
still in use in Fedora Infrastructure.
If necessary, let's wait until then. Anyway, we still have work to do
with Installation Guide, Virtualization Guide and SELinux Managing
Confined Services Guide. We can be busy until that upgrade.
Thank you Ruediger, specially for your interest to improve Fedora's
documentation quality.
And thank you all the docs team, for all the great books you gave us
since Fedora 11. They cover almost every aspect ! There's no need to
go and read elsewhere. It makes me happy. :-)
kind regards
Domingo Becker (es)
9:25 a.m.
W dniu 06.10.2009 14:22, Domingo Becker pisze:
So, the problem is in anaconda. I'll take a closer look today, I
have
to install Fedora on a desktop computer for production. I will file a
bug report against anaconda so they include those strings too in the
pot file.
Those particular strings (on keyboard configuration screen) comes from
system-config-keyboard package. Strings from system-config-date,
system-config-language and probably other tools are also in use in anaconda.
--
Piotr Drąg
http://raven.pmail.pl
9:35 p.m.
On 10/06/2009 10:22 PM, Domingo Becker wrote:
2009/10/6 Ruediger Landmann<r.landmann(a)redhat.com>:
> No books were actually changed; only the main index page. Therefore, any
> errors in any books were already there. In the case of the Installation
> Guide, since 19 June [1]; and in the case of the Installation Quick Start
> Guide, since 6 August [2].
>
I remember that. I remember I have asked that before.
If it's possible to correct it, please do so.
If you need some more extra work from us, just let us know.
The only way I can see to correct this will be:
* I identify the PO files in Publican that still contain fuzzy and
untranslated strings even after the big Transifex PO file has been split
across them
* I email these PO files out to translators
* Translators work on these files and mail them back to me
* I check these files into the repo manually
* I rebuild and republish the books with the updated PO files in place
* We all pray that the next time that we split a big PO file from
Transifex across the Publican PO files, that it does not break what we
did in the above steps :)
Basically, we side-step Transifex with a manual process.
If any language team would like to attempt this with the Installation
Guide and Installation Quick Start Guide, I'm prepared to work with you
to do this. But I admit that I'm not very eager to "work around" our own
systems and processes this way :(
As you say later in your email, this is time and effort that we could
probably all spend in better ways, especially because when we get
Transifex 0.7, this problem will go away by itself! :) Please make sure
to file that bug, though.
>> and the common content.
>>
> As far as I can tell. the only part of the Common Content that ever appeared
> in English was the Legal Notice, which always appears in English, for legal
> reasons. Was there something else wrong?
>
No. It seems it's in English for the new books.
Take a look at [1]
If there are legal issues about this, then leave it like this.
Otherwise, it would be better to have that localised.
I know a wrong translation here would be a problem. But if a
translator has doubts, then it's better to leave it untranslated.
[1] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f10/es/sn-legalnotice.html
The Fedora 10 Release Notes were an anomaly; they are the only place
I've found the Legal Notice ever translated -- it certainly wasn't that
way in the Release Notes in earlier versions.
I have confirmed with Red Hat's legal department today that this notice
should not be translated. The reason is simple: in legal matters, the
/exact/ wording of the notice has consequences. Therefore, if we
translate the legal notice, the legal department would need to check and
approve the wording in every language. Unfortunately, the legal
department simply does not have the resources to do this.
Maybe this should be added to an L10N FAQ somewhere?
Cheers, and thanks for your kind words :)
Ruediger
10:30 p.m.
2009/10/6 Ruediger Landmann <r.landmann(a)redhat.com>:
As you say later in your email, this is time and effort that we could
probably all spend in better ways, especially because when we get Transifex
0.7, this problem will go away by itself! :) Please make sure to file that
bug, though.
No problem, let's wait for the next Transifex.
The Fedora 10 Release Notes were an anomaly; they are the only place I've
found the Legal Notice ever translated -- it certainly wasn't that way in
the Release Notes in earlier versions.
:-) LOL
I have confirmed with Red Hat's legal department today that this
notice
should not be translated. The reason is simple: in legal matters, the
/exact/ wording of the notice has consequences. Therefore, if we translate
the legal notice, the legal department would need to check and approve the
wording in every language. Unfortunately, the legal department simply does
not have the resources to do this.
You're right about this.
Then let's leave it in English.
I'll have one prepared in Spanish in the wiki, just in case somebody asks.
Maybe this should be added to an L10N FAQ somewhere?
Perhaps.
Anyway, nobody asked so far.
It's not that frequent. :-)
It looks like the welcome message [1] is strong enough.
It leaves it clear that it's free to use.
Maybe that's why there are no questions.
[1]
http://fedora.is-sixsigma.com/F12beta/es-ES/index.html#sect-Release_Notes...
Cheers
Domingo
2:16 p.m.
2009/10/6 Domingo Becker <domingobecker(a)gmail.com>:
2009/10/6 Ruediger Landmann <r.landmann(a)redhat.com>:
>
>
> Of course, the degree of localisation depends on the degree of localisation
> in anaconda.
So, the problem is in anaconda. I'll take a closer look today, I have
to install Fedora on a desktop computer for production. I will file a
bug report against anaconda so they include those strings too in the
pot file.
I installed Fedora 11 in that computer, and anaconda localisation was
impeccable.
After selecting the language, the screen for selecting the keyboard
layout can be localized, but it's a minor issue.
After that, I saw only 1 message in English: "Preparing transaction
from installation source...".
But it lasted less than a second and It's impossible to read it.
No need to mention specspo/summary, but, where in Transifex is it?
So there's no need to file a bug report.
> Of course, with so many screenshots and so many languages,
it's quite
> possible I made some mistakes here and there.
That's why I say that you probably will need our help.
We (translators) are more interested than anyone else in its accuracy.
So let us know, we'll be glad to help you.
Once more, let us know if you need our help.
kind regards
Domingo Becker
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