5:52 a.m.
Salam,
I think I need to re-trace myself and remove all the passion out of my
correspondences.
Youcef is a member of the Arabeyes project, like many others, including
myself. Arabeyes is involved in several projects, some of which are
translations. We have evolved to have a certain model of doing this,
which in my opinion, has been successful -- this is not to say that there
isn't room for improvement (there's plenty of that).
Youcef has started this project (local to Arabeyes) upon receiving what
was understood to be maintainership of the Arabic language translations for
Fedora. This has been a misunderstanding, as Arabic was never assigned a
maintainer. However, we have continued to work under that wrong
impression. So, we have our CVS, project page, mailing-lists as well as QAC
to be followed by Fedora's Arabic translation (along with other translation
projects).
The beauty of this is that other translators can seamlessly translate
for Fedora, KDE, GNOME, Mandrake, Debian, etc. since they are all on the
same CVS. Most don't, but several translators enjoy being able to work on
more than one project without having to deal with the many projects systems
individually. In other words, Arabeyes simplifies this process by creating
a single-point of contact. We then worry about the sync'ing with the
other projects' CVS repositories.
As I understand now, Fedora does accommodate to maintainers, but is still
in its early stages of setting up for translations. In other words, some of
the things that are wanted are still being worked on. I also understand
that as long as there are no objections, Youcef can assume the role of
maintainer. I also understand that there are in fact objections. It is
unfortunate that these objections are not made public. The only person who
has publically made an objection was Sherif. His concern was "issues with
the translations" and "issues with the way Arabeyes handles things". In
other words, there are still no publically cited concrete reasons to back
these objections
My question then is, what makes an objection justifiable for a rejection of
an application to maintainership? Who are those other(s) people and what
are there reasons? Are those reasons not work-able within the same
framework that Youcef is implementing?
The problem here is that if Youcef is not granted maintainership of the Arabic
translation, it becomes impossible for Arabeyes to fit it under its current
framework. In other words, this would in effect force Arabeyes to drop
the project. This would mean that the 7 current translators for the project,
excluding Youcef himself (let alone the others who overflow from other
translation projects from time to time) will not be able to contribute
to Fedora's translations. We will be forced to re-assign them to other projects.
I apologize for the long emails, but I believe that explaining the
background of Arabeyes's work methodology and Youcef's role in this can
help others better understand why this is important.
So, if Groh is the person who calls the shot on who is maintainer and who
is not (I gather this from his offer to the Swedish maintainer), then I would
ask him to consider all the above.
Regards
--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: |
| | http://www.arabeyes.org/ |
| Arabeyes Project | Homepage: |
| Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ |
-------------------------------------------------------
6:32 a.m.
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Disclaimer: Whatever stated here is my own view and openion,
has nothing to do with redhat nor Fedora Project.
Note: I will keep stating the above disclaimer till Mr. Mohammed
stop treating my msgs as redhat employee.
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote:
Youcef is a member of the Arabeyes project, like many others,
including
myself. Arabeyes is involved in several projects, some of which are
translations. We have evolved to have a certain model of doing this,
which in my opinion, has been successful -- this is not to say that there
isn't room for improvement (there's plenty of that).
You can not force your way or request to have everything the
way you used to do. Wait and see how this is being handled.
I belive the model here is not ment to be only for arabic ppl
to translate. So do not assume that a system here does not
fit your needs because you personally has another model.
Youcef has started this project (local to Arabeyes) upon receiving
what
was understood to be maintainership of the Arabic language translations for
Fedora. This has been a misunderstanding, as Arabic was never assigned a
maintainer. However, we have continued to work under that wrong
impression. So, we have our CVS, project page, mailing-lists as well as QAC
to be followed by Fedora's Arabic translation (along with other translation
projects).
Before you propose anything, we need to establish Fedora Arabic
translation team. Regardless if the translators are from Arabeyes
or from any other group or indeviduals, I belive the frame work
under the current established process (which still to be finished)
is able to accommodate all.
The beauty of this is that other translators can seamlessly
translate
for Fedora, KDE, GNOME, Mandrake, Debian, etc. since they are all on the
same CVS. Most don't, but several translators enjoy being able to work on
more than one project without having to deal with the many projects systems
individually. In other words, Arabeyes simplifies this process by creating
a single-point of contact. We then worry about the sync'ing with the
other projects' CVS repositories.
I am not sure if we to care about CVS and other process carried anywhere
else. I doubt that all other translations keep the same model you
are talking about, and I see no reason why we should force a different
model for arabic. There is mailing list, we can have arabic mailing
list under fedora project to serve for arabic translators, there
is CVS, and I doubt that we need to confuse new commers to go to
different project proxying the work.
As I understand now, Fedora does accommodate to maintainers, but is
still
in its early stages of setting up for translations. In other words, some of
the things that are wanted are still being worked on. I also understand
that as long as there are no objections, Youcef can assume the role of
maintainer.
I would prefer that you do not assume here anything. Things are still
not finalized nor a process in place.
I also understand that there are in fact objections. It is
unfortunate that these objections are not made public. The only person who
has publically made an objection was Sherif. His concern was "issues with
the translations" and "issues with the way Arabeyes handles things". In
other words, there are still no publically cited concrete reasons to back
these objections
My question then is, what makes an objection justifiable for a rejection of
an application to maintainership? Who are those other(s) people and what
are there reasons? Are those reasons not work-able within the same
framework that Youcef is implementing?
I am not sure if I understand you correct. There is something I need
to ask here. If I step into a project, do I tell them hey guys
I have system and I demand to be the owner as I have similar effort.
What you need to understand that this is a Fedora Project, and any
effort done should be under the Fedora Project.
The problem here is that if Youcef is not granted maintainership of
the Arabic
translation, it becomes impossible for Arabeyes to fit it under its current
framework. In other words, this would in effect force Arabeyes to drop
the project. This would mean that the 7 current translators for the project,
excluding Youcef himself (let alone the others who overflow from other
translation projects from time to time) will not be able to contribute
to Fedora's translations. We will be forced to re-assign them to other projects.
Why it would be impossible for Arabeyes to fit here? I thought you said
Arabeyes cares about Linux and help providing arabic translation
to most of the projects. I do not understand the demand to grant
maintainership or else. Basically if some one is not in Arabeyes
should not contribute to Fedora Arabic translation? Fedora project
is public open source project I am not sure why anyone should
get exclusive maintainership. Basically the framework here will
make it easy for ANYONE to contribute. I do not see if you really
care about providing arabic translation why the demand on controling
that. No one told you that what you do will be taken from you
or credited to someone else. So where is that control thing coming
from?
I apologize for the long emails, but I believe that explaining the
background of Arabeyes's work methodology and Youcef's role in this can
help others better understand why this is important.
I am not sure why this is important yet. I would care to discuss
specific arabic translation, contribute, discuss how the system
should be not asking for force outside system or else you are
not contributing.
I still would ask you to relax and let things get its final shape.
Tone of threatening that if you do not give me this I am not working
will not get anything done.
It seems you jumped to so many assumption and acted ont it
in your privious emails. You went later saying "now I understand"
so it would be nice to start with listen first and ask to clear
things before jumping to conculsion. Again I will appreciate
to stop saying "redhat employees" it is has been cleared
to you more than time that Red Hat Employees are no different
than the other contributors here, so which part of this
you are not getting?
You got me really so worked up with your way of talking
and addressing things, and I am not sure that you would
reach your goal of helping the arabic community with
the way you insists to address issues here.
There was no issue to start with. Yet, you made
a big deal and start accusing. You made up a story
that modules is been taken and released retaken ..etc
I still do not know where did you make this up from.
What I see that you have been helped and requests
for helpping release modules, access ..etc has
been granted. Last request for the 10 time
do not address "redhat employees" becase this is
an accusion which is not true.
I hope I made myself clear. So relax and stop
threatening that things will be droped if your
demands is not granted. Let us get in a friendly
talk here to work things out. Also try to understand
this is an open source project not an arabeyes
project.
Thanks
Sherif
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7:05 a.m.
On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 07:32:31AM -0400, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote:
Disclaimer: Whatever stated here is my own view and openion,
has nothing to do with redhat nor Fedora Project.
Note: I will keep stating the above disclaimer till Mr. Mohammed
stop treating my msgs as redhat employee.
Noted.
You can not force your way or request to have everything the
way you used to do. Wait and see how this is being handled.
I think you are misunderstanding me here. I am simply trying to be part
of this process, instead of waiting to see it happening magically. Isn't
this the spirity of Open Source, an open dialogue?
I belive the model here is not ment to be only for arabic ppl
to translate. So do not assume that a system here does not
fit your needs because you personally has another model.
It's not a personal issue, Sherif. This is simply explaining why we are
having a hard time accommodating with this. If you have suggestions as
to how we can work around it, then that would be great.
Before you propose anything, we need to establish Fedora Arabic
translation team. Regardless if the translators are from Arabeyes
There already is a Fedora Arabic translation team -- it is simply not
recognized by Fedora itself. There are 7 members (excluding Youcef)
involved in this.
or from any other group or indeviduals, I belive the frame work
under the current established process (which still to be finished)
is able to accommodate all.
This is my/our hope. I am sure that if we all keep our heads leveled, we
can reach a solution that would fit (almost) everyone ;)
I am not sure if we to care about CVS and other process carried
anywhere
else. I doubt that all other translations keep the same model you
are talking about, and I see no reason why we should force a different
model for arabic. There is mailing list, we can have arabic mailing
Not really forcing any different model. Our model has been created to
fit around the pre-existing large projects (e.g. GNOME, KDE, Debian,
etc.). Also, as I understand it, even Fedora's current model can fit
nicely with this. I have misunderstood the system and from what I now
understand from Groh's posts, if there is a maintainer, there is no
problem at all for Arabeyes' model to fit nicely.
list under fedora project to serve for arabic translators, there
is CVS, and I doubt that we need to confuse new commers to go to
different project proxying the work.
Most projects do offer language-specific mailing-lists if the
translation team is unable to have its own. We have our own, so we don't
need that option.
I would prefer that you do not assume here anything. Things are
still
not finalized nor a process in place.
I am not making any assumptions, I am simply stating what I understand
-- so if I am mistaken I can be corrected.
I am not sure if I understand you correct. There is something I need
to ask here. If I step into a project, do I tell them hey guys
I have system and I demand to be the owner as I have similar effort.
What you need to understand that this is a Fedora Project, and any
effort done should be under the Fedora Project.
Not at all! That is not what I am saying. I am not saying that we have a
system. I am saying that we have a team of 8 translators assigned to the
project with one of them being the maintainer. This person (Youcef) woud
like to assume the role of maintainership w/ Fedora. That's all.
Why it would be impossible for Arabeyes to fit here? I thought you
said
Arabeyes cares about Linux and help providing arabic translation
to most of the projects. I do not understand the demand to grant
Sherif, it is not exactly impossible, it is just so difficult that it
makes it hardly worth the effort. For example, we have modules A, B, C,
D, E anf F. Arabeyes Fedora maintainer (not recognized by Fedora as the
maintainer) owns A, B, C and D. He improts it to Arabeyes' CVS. The
translation team works on it. Someone who is not involved in this team
but is interested in Fedora's Arabic translation grabs E and F. He works
on it, commits it directly to Fedora's CVS.
Now, when the Arabeyes Fedora maintainer attemptes to sync, he will get
a whole bunch of errors and conflicts because he does not have ownership
over the E and F modules. He then has to keep track of those modules,
each time.
maintainership or else. Basically if some one is not in Arabeyes
should not contribute to Fedora Arabic translation? Fedora project
What I am saying is, essentially someone has to maintain it. If it's not
Arabeyes, then someone else. Arabeyes cannot maintain it _and_ have
people commit directly to Fedora's CVS at the same time. It just makes
the job too difficult. Again, if you have such strong objections against
Arabeyes doing this (and find that people may not want to join the
project), that is fine. Assemble a team of translators and do it
yourself then. I am sure Arabeyes will still support the effort in any
capacity it can.
is public open source project I am not sure why anyone should
get exclusive maintainership. Basically the framework here will
That is how all the other projects have done it. Arabeyes itself is
also public and open source. The only thing that differentiates it from
Fedora is that it is a grass-roots project, whereas Fedora has a
commercial entity (RedHat) behind it.
make it easy for ANYONE to contribute. I do not see if you really
care about providing arabic translation why the demand on controling
that. No one told you that what you do will be taken from you
or credited to someone else. So where is that control thing coming
from?
It is not control in the sense that you have understood. The control I
want is for the quality, not for the project itself. Whether Fedora is
done by Arabeyes or not, will not make a big difference to Arabeyes as a
project.
I am not sure why this is important yet. I would care to discuss
specific arabic translation, contribute, discuss how the system
should be not asking for force outside system or else you are
not contributing.
Please do. Let us discuss the specifics. I am sure we can all benefit
from a discussion of this type.
I still would ask you to relax and let things get its final shape.
Tone of threatening that if you do not give me this I am not working
will not get anything done.
I am not threatening, really. I am simply trying to help here. I
realize that my tone in the past couple posts has been a little too
passionate and for this reason I am removing passion from my posts. I am
not saying we will not work because we don't like the system. I am
saying we are not going to be able to work because of not getting
maintainership. That's all.
It seems you jumped to so many assumption and acted ont it
in your privious emails. You went later saying "now I understand"
so it would be nice to start with listen first and ask to clear
things before jumping to conculsion. Again I will appreciate
We all make mistakes, eh? ;)
to stop saying "redhat employees" it is has been cleared
to you more than time that Red Hat Employees are no different
than the other contributors here, so which part of this
you are not getting?
Noted, again.
You got me really so worked up with your way of talking
and addressing things, and I am not sure that you would
reach your goal of helping the arabic community with
the way you insists to address issues here.
Where else would you like me to address those issues?
There was no issue to start with. Yet, you made
a big deal and start accusing. You made up a story
that modules is been taken and released retaken ..etc
I still do not know where did you make this up from.
Yes, I believe there was a misunderstanding on our part (I believe it
wasn't just us, there were a few people who did not understand the new
status page system).
[..]
I hope I made myself clear. So relax and stop
threatening that things will be droped if your
demands is not granted. Let us get in a friendly
talk here to work things out. Also try to understand
this is an open source project not an arabeyes
project.
Sure -- hence my previous mail to you ;) Since both _are_ Open Source
projects (that last sentence almost makes it sound like Arabeyes is
not), they are brothers and sisters.. so they will be pulling one
another's hairs from time to time -- but they will always love one
another ;)
Regards
--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: |
| | http://www.arabeyes.org/ |
| Arabeyes Project | Homepage: |
| Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ |
-------------------------------------------------------
7:14 a.m.
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Mohammed,
Good that we reached this point. Sarah is going
to setup fedora-trans-ar so we can start discussing
the arabic issues there. I will wait till the mailing
list are up and running, so we can move there.
I am sure we can work things out now, as things
start to be cleared for both sides. No hard
feeling from my side, and I hope same at your end.
Thanks
Sherif
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7:18 a.m.
On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 08:14:27AM -0400, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote:
Mohammed,
Good that we reached this point. Sarah is going
to setup fedora-trans-ar so we can start discussing
the arabic issues there. I will wait till the mailing
list are up and running, so we can move there.
You can carry this discussion over to doc@arabeyes until the fedora list
is up and running.
I will setup the list to be able to post to the Arabeyes doc list and
subscribe the doc list to it so peopl eon the arabeyes doc list can be
involved in the discussion. We would like to consolidate things as much
as possible so as many people as possible can be involved in
discussions.
I am sure we can work things out now, as things
start to be cleared for both sides. No hard
feeling from my side, and I hope same at your end.
"safi ya laban" ;)
Regards
--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: |
| | http://www.arabeyes.org/ |
| Arabeyes Project | Homepage: |
| Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ |
-------------------------------------------------------
6:48 a.m.
Hi all,
I have requested a new mailing list fedora-trans-ar to be set up for
everyone who is involved in Arabic translation for Fedora project. It
will be announced in this list as soon as it's available.
Fedora-trans-list is used to discuss general Fedora translation issues.
For language specific issues please move to individual language list. If
you would like to have your own language mailing list, please contact me
offline. When I get 5 or more requests I will request to have a separate
list set up. The first person contact me will be the default list
maintainer.
Regards,
Sarah
On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 20:52, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote:
Salam,
I think I need to re-trace myself and remove all the passion out of my
correspondences.
Youcef is a member of the Arabeyes project, like many others, including
myself. Arabeyes is involved in several projects, some of which are
translations. We have evolved to have a certain model of doing this,
which in my opinion, has been successful -- this is not to say that there
isn't room for improvement (there's plenty of that).
Youcef has started this project (local to Arabeyes) upon receiving what
was understood to be maintainership of the Arabic language translations for
Fedora. This has been a misunderstanding, as Arabic was never assigned a
maintainer. However, we have continued to work under that wrong
impression. So, we have our CVS, project page, mailing-lists as well as QAC
to be followed by Fedora's Arabic translation (along with other translation
projects).
The beauty of this is that other translators can seamlessly translate
for Fedora, KDE, GNOME, Mandrake, Debian, etc. since they are all on the
same CVS. Most don't, but several translators enjoy being able to work on
more than one project without having to deal with the many projects systems
individually. In other words, Arabeyes simplifies this process by creating
a single-point of contact. We then worry about the sync'ing with the
other projects' CVS repositories.
As I understand now, Fedora does accommodate to maintainers, but is still
in its early stages of setting up for translations. In other words, some of
the things that are wanted are still being worked on. I also understand
that as long as there are no objections, Youcef can assume the role of
maintainer. I also understand that there are in fact objections. It is
unfortunate that these objections are not made public. The only person who
has publically made an objection was Sherif. His concern was "issues with
the translations" and "issues with the way Arabeyes handles things". In
other words, there are still no publically cited concrete reasons to back
these objections
My question then is, what makes an objection justifiable for a rejection of
an application to maintainership? Who are those other(s) people and what
are there reasons? Are those reasons not work-able within the same
framework that Youcef is implementing?
The problem here is that if Youcef is not granted maintainership of the Arabic
translation, it becomes impossible for Arabeyes to fit it under its current
framework. In other words, this would in effect force Arabeyes to drop
the project. This would mean that the 7 current translators for the project,
excluding Youcef himself (let alone the others who overflow from other
translation projects from time to time) will not be able to contribute
to Fedora's translations. We will be forced to re-assign them to other projects.
I apologize for the long emails, but I believe that explaining the
background of Arabeyes's work methodology and Youcef's role in this can
help others better understand why this is important.
So, if Groh is the person who calls the shot on who is maintainer and who
is not (I gather this from his offer to the Swedish maintainer), then I would
ask him to consider all the above.
Regards
10:35 p.m.
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Sarah,
On Saturday 26 June 2004 13:48, Sarah Wang wrote:
Hi all,
I have requested a new mailing list fedora-trans-ar to be set up for
everyone who is involved in Arabic translation for Fedora project. It
will be announced in this list as soon as it's available.
Actually, there is a mailing list where we are already discussing Arabic
specific issues (doc at arabeyes dot org), available publicly (with archives
and all). That's why I never asked for a specific fedora list to be created,
though there are more than 5 people involved.
Fedora-trans-list is used to discuss general Fedora translation
issues.
For language specific issues please move to individual language list. If
you would like to have your own language mailing list, please contact me
offline. When I get 5 or more requests I will request to have a separate
list set up. The first person contact me will be the default list
maintainer.
Though many recent posts concerned Arabic (well, Arabeyes...), I think the
main issue is a _very_ general one and is not specific to any language.
Please refer to my answer(s) to Bernd and Behdad for more details.
I think answering clearly this issue, making it public on the website for
future reference, will close the thread.
Regards,
Sarah
Regards,
- --
Youcef R. Rahal
Arabeyes.org
http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal
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7257
days inactive
7258
days old
6 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Mohammed Elzubeir -
Sarah Wang -
Sherif Abdelgawad -
Youcef Rabah Rahal